Police Charged Over Drug War

[rixalex]

Looking through this thread, it's apparent that nobody knows what really happened, and knowing Thailand it will be hard to prove anything

1 - A memo was produced by Sonthi. He is the guy who took power after the coup. No vested interest there, we can be sure ...

2 - Inquiries in Thailand usually end up drawing blanks. Blame will be laid along political lines

Thinking back to the time of this drug war, it had wide public support. Methamphetamine (Yaba) use in particular had grown to epidemic proportions, and was considered the most pressing social problem at the time. Since the production of opium had been controlled, yaba had taken its place and was available everywhere - college kids were taking it while studying for exams. Taxi drivers and truck drivers were taking it to work longer hours. Someone I knew got hooked on it and nearly died - it really is a terrible thing, a scourge that was everywhere.

Now I'm not saying that extrajudicial killings are something that should be allowed to happen, and I personally oppose the idea. The question at the time was how else could and should this have been done? The problem in enforcing drug laws had always been that most of the more senior and welathy drug dealers in Thaiand pay off the cops and the judiciary to get themselves off the hook. Only the small time guys get busted and sent to jail. The public saw the war on drugs as a lesser of two evils at the time, a way to get to the more senior dealers, and so the war on drugs was supported it because it did significantly reduce the availability and increase the price of meth on the street.

So all this moralising about extra judicial killings is all well and good. We should also try to add some balance to the discussion about the horror that is yaba, and how to control it in a country like Thailand where the police and judiciary are so renowned for corruption and the bad guys get off the hook.

Same modus operandi as with your posts about Thaksin.

One sentence (underlined) to denounce (an insurance policy against anyone who dares to accuse you of being in favour of), and then 20 or 30 sentences that go on to justify it and play it down.

[TheLaughingMan]

Looking through this thread, it's apparent that nobody knows what really happened, and knowing Thailand it will be hard to prove anything

1 - A memo was produced by Sonthi. He is the guy who took power after the coup. No vested interest there, we can be sure ...

2 - Inquiries in Thailand usually end up drawing blanks. Blame will be laid along political lines

Thinking back to the time of this drug war, it had wide public support. Methamphetamine (Yaba) use in particular had grown to epidemic proportions, and was considered the most pressing social problem at the time. Since the production of opium had been controlled, yaba had taken its place and was available everywhere - college kids were taking it while studying for exams. Taxi drivers and truck drivers were taking it to work longer hours. Someone I knew got hooked on it and nearly died - it really is a terrible thing, a scourge that was everywhere.

Now I'm not saying that extrajudicial killings are something that should be allowed to happen, and I personally oppose the idea. The question at the time was how else could and should this have been done? The problem in enforcing drug laws had always been that most of the more senior and welathy drug dealers in Thaiand pay off the cops and the judiciary to get themselves off the hook. Only the small time guys get busted and sent to jail. The public saw the war on drugs as a lesser of two evils at the time, a way to get to the more senior dealers, and so the war on drugs was supported it because it did significantly reduce the availability and increase the price of meth on the street.

So all this moralising about extra judicial killings is all well and good. We should also try to add some balance to the discussion about the horror that is yaba, and how to control it in a country like Thailand where the police and judiciary are so renowned for corruption and the bad guys get off the hook

Wow, horrible horrible propaganda.

The extra judicial killings were not used to actually kill the main people responsible for bringing drugs into the country. Otherwise the police would have to kill themselves and military. No the people they killed were either small time pushers, people that knew the cops were involved in the drug trade or people they simply wanted to kill for personal or business reasons. You're entire attempt to guide readers to talking about the ills of drug use instead of the blatant massacre of thousands is way out of line. If 3000 drug dealers had been killed a lot less people would care. That is not what happened, reports have proven that many people murdered were completely unrelated to the drug trade.

[christcourt]

Looking through this thread, it's apparent that nobody knows what really happened, and knowing Thailand it will be hard to prove anything

1 - A memo was produced by Sonthi. He is the guy who took power after the coup. No vested interest there, we can be sure ...

2 - Inquiries in Thailand usually end up drawing blanks. Blame will be laid along political lines

Thinking back to the time of this drug war, it had wide public support. Methamphetamine (Yaba) use in particular had grown to epidemic proportions, and was considered the most pressing social problem at the time. Since the production of opium had been controlled, yaba had taken its place and was available everywhere - college kids were taking it while studying for exams. Taxi drivers and truck drivers were taking it to work longer hours. Someone I knew got hooked on it and nearly died - it really is a terrible thing, a scourge that was everywhere.

Now I'm not saying that extrajudicial killings are something that should be allowed to happen, and I personally oppose the idea. The question at the time was how else could and should this have been done? The problem in enforcing drug laws had always been that most of the more senior and welathy drug dealers in Thaiand pay off the cops and the judiciary to get themselves off the hook. Only the small time guys get busted and sent to jail. The public saw the war on drugs as a lesser of two evils at the time, a way to get to the more senior dealers, and so the war on drugs was supported it because it did significantly reduce the availability and increase the price of meth on the street.

So all this moralising about extra judicial killings is all well and good. We should also try to add some balance to the discussion about the horror that is yaba, and how to control it in a country like Thailand where the police and judiciary are so renowned for corruption and the bad guys get off the hook.

Same modus operandi as with your posts about Thaksin.

One sentence (underlined) to denounce (an insurance policy against anyone who dares to accuse you of being in favour of), and then 20 or 30 sentences that go on to justify it and play it down.

RIGHT!! The 3000 or 2500 [some people have quoted] has not been proved they were killings in the name of the Drug Wars. At the time I and millions of us supported the Government's hard lines to clear what is a "human epidemic" which causes thousands of deaths and misery all over thailand and the world at large. I have no regards or feelings to any person who uses, or pedals drugs, to get a fix or make money they deserve the worst in my view.

Now if the Kalasin BIB are found guilty of murder they deserve the same in my view as they are suppose to uphold the law against drugs not go shoot innocent people if they did.

Living up here in this neck of the woods for years I suspect these guys wanted to get in on the action as most BIB are on the take or shooting someone. Ever see a poor policeman [NO] it doesn't matter which Political party is in power. Just my view anyway.

[Siripon]

Looking through this thread, it's apparent that nobody knows what really happened, and knowing Thailand it will be hard to prove anything

1 - A memo was produced by Sonthi. He is the guy who took power after the coup. No vested interest there, we can be sure ...

2 - Inquiries in Thailand usually end up drawing blanks. Blame will be laid along political lines

Thinking back to the time of this drug war, it had wide public support. Methamphetamine (Yaba) use in particular had grown to epidemic proportions, and was considered the most pressing social problem at the time. Since the production of opium had been controlled, yaba had taken its place and was available everywhere - college kids were taking it while studying for exams. Taxi drivers and truck drivers were taking it to work longer hours. Someone I knew got hooked on it and nearly died - it really is a terrible thing, a scourge that was everywhere.

Now I'm not saying that extrajudicial killings are something that should be allowed to happen, and I personally oppose the idea. The question at the time was how else could and should this have been done? The problem in enforcing drug laws had always been that most of the more senior and welathy drug dealers in Thaiand pay off the cops and the judiciary to get themselves off the hook. Only the small time guys get busted and sent to jail. The public saw the war on drugs as a lesser of two evils at the time, a way to get to the more senior dealers, and so the war on drugs was supported it because it did significantly reduce the availability and increase the price of meth on the street.

So all this moralising about extra judicial killings is all well and good. We should also try to add some balance to the discussion about the horror that is yaba, and how to control it in a country like Thailand where the police and judiciary are so renowned for corruption and the bad guys get off the hook.

I doubt it was Sonti Bunyaratkalin coup leader, much more likely to be Sonthi Limtongkun, leader of PAD, he's excellent at getting hold of official documents, memos etc.

You make a valid point about police involvement in illegal drugs, which made the campaign even more reprehensible because naturally those in uniform who were involved made sure lesser fish, ie small dealers fried!

A police state indeed where they were above the law

If progress is made in finding the killers that can only be good for Thailand's human rights,Thaksin's words at the time certainly gave police the impression the 'suspects' lives were worthless, and of course he had his targets to be met, regardless of the accuracy of informers' words.

BTW, it's a weak point in Thai law in my view that a criminal such as Thaksin can sue people here through lawyers without having to be present himself in court; yet to begin a case against him, he, the defendant, has to be present first before the case can begin. A clear case of double standards!

Nice to see Chaisit sounding upset over Thaksin's disinterest in his proposal to be Puea Thai leader. Maybe it's to do with Chaisit being the owner of the company of the gas filled truck that threatened Din Daeng!

Edited May 24, 2009 by Siripon

[HagenvonTronje]

Wow, horrible horrible propaganda.

...

Myth and mucus!

That is propaganda itself.

The 2500/3000 extra judicial killings is a hoax number as well, a saga.

Why nobody cares about correctness and accuracy? Because its sounds so perfect and proven for the evilness of the hate figure Thaksin.

If you are not work with the correct numbers and proven facts, instead using hyperbole, rumours, fairy tails in you witch-hunt, those Thaksin lost credibility.

What is not true is that the police in uniform or as hidden anonymous killed 2500/3000 people during that time.

lame reporting copy paste journalism, hearsay and repeating myth without verifying some numbers lead to that false belief that 2500/3000 people had been killed during the war on drug in the name of the war on drug, killed by the authorities. False!

That around '3000 figure' is just the total numbers of murder/homicide that occurred 2003. Lot of them would happen even without the "war on drug". Lot of them are not related to any drug use, drug trade or so whatever, but also not had been committed in the name of the 'war on drug'.

True is that the statistical number of murder was around double than in the month or years without are "war on drug" in the years before and in the years after. the around 2500/3000 figure include also the cases where drug dealers killing each other, to silence them before they maybe report to the police, or expose the big bosses (and yes maybe the police man themselves, that are involved in drug trade and mafia business).

The number of death in shootout, of people got killed during raids by the police is actually much lower. Not all death and murders have been proper investigated are reason been found or suspects arrested or convicted. The number of unsolved cases is much lower than the 2500/3000 number.

from the human right watch report 2004:

In the first three-month phase of the crackdown that began on February 1, 2003, the Royal Thai Police reported that some 2,275 alleged drug criminals had been killed.14 Most were shot with handguns. The government initially claimed that fifty-one had been killed by police in self-defense and the rest in battles among dealers. In October 2003, Thailand’s foreign minister told the U.S. State Department that 2,593 homicide cases had occurred in the country since the previous February, more than double the normal level of about 400 homicides per month.15 On December 15, 2003, after the end of the first phases of the campaign, the Royal Thai Police reported 1,329 drug-related homicides (out of 1,176 separate incidents) since February, of which seventy-two (in fifty-eight incidents) had been killed by police. More than 70,000 people allegedly involved in the drug trade were arrested.

source

After the putsch, the junta runs an independent committee to investigate the killings. They did not found or prove with evidence that higher ups are involved.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/01/16...al_30062378.php

there is no doubt that the police isn't corrupt , but to celebrate it as a victory against Thaksin, that after 5 years the DSI is going to check some cases is nothing more than delusional and propaganda.

It is sad and a shame that it did take so long time to start the investigation and we can hope that these culprits in the Kalasin police got exposed, indicted and finally convicted.

But blame everything on Thaksin is just too easy and it is not earnest or diligent or advocacy of human rights. It is ugly hypocrisy, nothing more.

Everyone who still comes with that 2500/3000 figure and blamed it solely on Thaksin is a disinformated, clueless naive or a liar and propagandist.

Take an Asian Human Rights Commission (AHRC) or Asian Legal Resource Centre (ALRC) article, or a blog entry by Awzar Thi (a member of these organisations) - real true advocates of human right, the once that expose the war on drug crimes since they happened, so take an new fresh article statement and look and what they say to some current development and the human right problems in Thailand. Post them and look at the reaction you get from the self-declared advocates of snakehead hunting, wannabe judges, self-righteous fighters for the truth to be known.

The victims of the war on drugs are for them just welcomed cases for their personal hate and smear campaign. How low that is.

[TPI]

Those of us who were in the country when K. Taksin geed up the police to "arrest" known drug dealers knew that it would be abused by all and sundry...It got so bad that even people who had sold their house were terrified of a police squad banging on the door at midnight and being one of the "disappeared" by morning.

Hundreds of people were killed because they had "unexplained wealth", the police didn't bother to investigate they just went out and killed them, with the PM's approval...remember when he was asked by the media how far the police should go...his reply was along the lines of "if they have nothing to hide, why should they run?"

I think the question should be...Where do they get these Psychopaths in the first place? Surely they should become obvious in any Psych test to join the service? To kill without thought is not natural or normal, soldiers don't kill indiscriminately, loading people onto trucks face down and then piling other people on top is only stupid, not psychotic?

To solve the problem, have a truth and reconciliation commission, clean the slates, fire the mentally ill and move on!

[Texpat]

Thaksin did a wonderful job of getting rid of most illegal drugs from Issan.

They returned upon his untimely departure from Thai politics. Too sad.

Another purge would be welcomed.

Thaksin got stuff done.

[TPI]

The number of unsolved cases is much lower than the 2500/3000 number.

from the human right watch report 2004:

In the first three-month phase of the crackdown that began on February 1, 2003, the Royal Thai Police reported that some 2,275 alleged drug criminals had been killed.14 Most were shot with handguns. The government initially claimed that fifty-one had been killed by police in self-defense and the rest in battles among dealers. In October 2003, Thailand’s foreign minister told the U.S. State Department that 2,593 homicide cases had occurred in the country since the previous February, more than double the normal level of about 400 homicides per month.15 On December 15, 2003, after the end of the first phases of the campaign, the Royal Thai Police reported 1,329 drug-related homicides (out of 1,176 separate incidents) since February, of which seventy-two (in fifty-eight incidents) had been killed by police. More than 70,000 people allegedly involved in the drug trade were arrested.

source

After the putsch, the junta runs an independent committee to investigate the killings. They did not found or prove with evidence that higher ups are involved.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/01/16...al_30062378.php

there is no doubt that the police isn't corrupt , but to celebrate it as a victory against Taksin, that after 5 years the DSI is going to check some cases is nothing more than delusional and propaganda.

It is sad and a shame that it did take so long time to start the investigation and we can hope that these culprits in the Kalasin police got exposed, indicted and finally convicted.

But blame everything on Thaksin is just too easy and it is not earnest or diligent or advocacy of human rights. It is ugly hypocrisy, nothing more.

Everyone who still comes with that 2500/3000 figure and blamed it solely on Thaksin is a disinformated, clueless naive or a liar and propagandist.

Take an Asian Human Rights Commission (AHRC) or Asian Legal Resource Centre (ALRC) article, or a blog entry by Awzar Thi (a member of these organisations) - real true advocates of human right, the once that expose the war on drug crimes since they happened, so take an new fresh article statement and look and what they say to some current development and the human right problems in Thailand. Post them and look at the reaction you get from the self-declared advocates of snakehead hunting, wannabe judges, self-righteous fighters for the truth to be known.

The victims of the war on drugs are for them just welcomed cases for their personal hate and smear campaign. How low that is.

Think carefully HT, you're arguing over guesstimated figures...fair enough, but how logical is it that "drug lords" would kill hundreds of their lower echelon to avoid being fingered as "drug lords" when it would be easier to finger them as murderers?

What on earth would you gain by killing your own people, what would it do to your credibility amongst your peers?

Surely, just leaving the country, like so many modern politicians do, would have solved the problem!

Sorry HT deep, penetrating logic does not seem to be your forte. It might be best if you stick to pickling herring??

[HagenvonTronje]

Think carefully HT, you're arguing over guesstimated figures...fair enough, but how logical is it that "drug lords" would kill hundreds of their lower echelon to avoid being fingered as "drug lords" when it would be easier to finger them as murderers?

...

Sorry HT deep, penetrating logic does not seem to be your forte. It might be best if you stick to pickling herring??

what is your logic? stick to facts obviously not. and coherence got replaced by two silly emoticons.

dead mules can not talk. dead witnesses can not talk. be loyal to your mafia boss or you die a strong message.

the war on drugs created some paranoia and fear and one could argue it is the wrong instrument too choose if you wanna fight drugs.

and to hold Thaksin responsible for 2500/3000 death is still wrong.

you said: "Hundreds of people were killed because they had "unexplained wealth", the police didn't bother to investigate they just went out and killed them, with the PM's approval."

do you have any evidence for that?

[Journalist]

I do deride people who say they don't support Thaksin and declare themselves neutral and without bias, but then procede to put forward a one-sided argument that downplays the bad things that Thaksin did and suggest that the good things he did in some ways justifies or negates the bad. As SJ recently commented, it's disingenuous. If you support Thaksin in some way then fine - just have the balls and the honesty to admit it.

Nope. one can argue both sides of a bog-standard debating issue. I privately tend to favour Abhisit here, but I can certainly recognise the shortcomings in his tenure from the other point of view.

And its more perversely edifying for me to argue the contra side on a site where most of the members insist on their view being the unequivocal truth, (even when their points frequently show field-of-vision inconsistencies and logical non-sequiturs) and where the orientation of the rules and editorial tone lend to their side of the debate.

Ditto with the drugs killings. 'A brutal slaying'....... vs .....'scum of society whose extermination won't be missed'. ....Can pull/push it either way.

[geriatrickid]

There is something I do not understand. Dropped from the review are the allegations that paramilitary units were active prior to and during the "war on drugs". It's no big secret that "communists" were targeted. People agitating for social justice and change were labeled communists. It was easy to call anyone you didn't like a commie. The paramilitary units were under the command and control of the army. Will the investigation include a review of these units? If not, then it suggests to me an easy way to transfer some of the responsibility for many of these possible murders from the murky world of the paramilitary to the police.

Before you dismiss this, think back to the great US war on drugs in Cental America, when President Reagan was allowing the drug trafficers to run amok because they were anti-communist. This gave rise to the Iran-Contra debacle that basically saw the President circumvent the law and sidestep the US Congress. Is it not possible, that the same sort of situation occurred in Thailand?

I do not deny some police may be guilty, but the army doesn't appear to be too clean in this matter either. Are they getting a "get out of jail" card on this? And isn't the army leadership anti Thaksin? Convenient.

Edited May 24, 2009 by geriatrickid

[TheLaughingMan]

Thaksin did a wonderful job of getting rid of most illegal drugs from Issan.

They returned upon his untimely departure from Thai politics. Too sad.

Another purge would be welcomed.

Thaksin got stuff done.

So the people that were murdered that had noting to do with drugs is just collateral damage? What if it was you they targeted because they liked your car? Write you up as a drug dealer, kill you, and take all your stuff. Not in that order.

[unforgiven]

Wow! Is this really going to happen? I wonder what evidence/witnesses they have.

Sure why not?This present government is going to bring everything Toxin did to light and to the max.

[justanothercybertosser]

Those of us who were in the country when K. Taksin geed up the police to "arrest" known drug dealers knew that it would be abused by all and sundry...It got so bad that even people who had sold their house were terrified of a police squad banging on the door at midnight and being one of the "disappeared" by morning.

Hundreds of people were killed because they had "unexplained wealth", the police didn't bother to investigate they just went out and killed them, with the PM's approval...remember when he was asked by the media how far the police should go...his reply was along the lines of "if they have nothing to hide, why should they run?"

I think the question should be...Where do they get these Psychopaths in the first place? Surely they should become obvious in any Psych test to join the service? To kill without thought is not natural or normal, soldiers don't kill indiscriminately, loading people onto trucks face down and then piling other people on top is only stupid, not psychotic?

To solve the problem, have a truth and reconciliation commission, clean the slates, fire the mentally ill and move on!

That is a pure exaggeration and hyperbole.

The vast majority of people who got killed were in the drug business. At the time it was not exactly a secret who is in the business, as it is now. Anyone who lives in a Thai community (as opposed to some expat apartment tower block or walled off mu ban), and interacts with the people, knows exactly who is involved in the drug business, and who isn't. The drug business is a public business, people send drugs, stand on corners selling drugs, deliver drugs, and are suddenly able to buy houses, cars and other nice things without any other source of income, from the profits.

In between the drug related killings there were many other personal or business conflict solved under "drug war killings", exactly the same way as nowadays everybody who is killed in the three southern provinces is automatically counted as insurgency related, even though many of those killed are over various other reasons.

Nevertheless, the killings should never have happened. It is good that the Kalasin killings come to court. I very much doubt though that much will come out of it, and not much will or can be done over the many other killings. A few police officers who received orders might take the fall at best, but the system will not change. The ones who gave the orders will not be punished, because you will not find any documentation of these orders. There never is in such cases.

But i doubt very much that the other security agencies who took part in the party will be touched. It wasn't just police - it was border patrol police, militias and army as well. Then you have the whole apparatus of the bureaucracy as well. The media which has supported it at the time. Etc.

The system that enabled these killings and other such extrajudicial actions has not changed though. It is still in place, and useful to the government, and whoever else needs it for whatever purpose. Proof of this is the setting up of the Blue Shirts by this government - a militia to fight Red Shirts. This is the same mechanics. A few police officers charged will not change the enabling system. Until this system is tackled - i will not get exited over this.

[Shotime]

Interesting to see how Thais feel.

[sriracha john]

The number of unsolved cases is much lower than the 2500/3000 number.

from the human right watch report 2004: In the first three-month phase of the crackdown that began on February 1, 2003, the Royal Thai Police reported that some 2,275 alleged drug criminals had been killed.14 Most were shot with

Sorry HT deep, penetrating logic does not seem to be your forte. It might be best if you stick to pickling herring??

He starts his post with "the Royal Thai Police reported"..... yeah... real reliable stats

[JetsetBkk]

...Thinking back to the time of this drug war, it had wide public support....

It certainly did. A lot of the comments being posted now about how bad it all went are simply 20/20 hindsight by Thaksin bashers. Where were their posts at that time?

[sriracha john]

...Thinking back to the time of this drug war, it had wide public support....

It certainly did. A lot of the comments being posted now about how bad it all went are simply 20/20 hindsight by Thaksin bashers. Where were their posts at that time?

Waiting for the News Clippings Forum to be established.

and once that was done, a few of us have been making posts on the subject for quite some time...

I have no doubt that the status quo CAN change, and yes, things do change.... but I do not believe he is personally responsible for it. What do you feel he has changed?

Curtailment of civil liberties and freedom of the press (2500 uninvestigated killings last year during HIS drug war; firing employees of ITV and sacking of Post editor). He has completely blurred the line with conflicts of interest (loans to Burma to buy his satellite). He has repeatedly lowered the opinion of Thailand in the eyes of the world (bird flu lies and decrying human rights reports critical of his policies). His cronyism is unmatched. His plethora of lame "hub" ideas has made Thailand the laughing stock of Asia. Ludicrous Elite Card schemes, uneven "social order" campaigns and infantile Culture Ministry initiatives, etc. etc. ad nauseum.

It's amazing that anyone living in Thailand today is unaware of his many, many changes or if they are aware fails to see how detrimental they have become. Come out of your tower once in awhile and try to walk at street level sometime. I'm sorry if you think these are, as you say, "silly reasons" for being against Thaksin, but they are not "silly" to the people of Thailand.

Edited May 24, 2009 by sriracha john

[warfie]

we're talking about cops prosecuting cops... if .... *IF* anyone is found guilty, the "sentence" will be no worse than that for almost (but not quite) stealing a bar mat... probably a lot lighter... if anything...

I love Thailand and her people, but even now, I frequently find cause to gasp in amazement at the judiciary procedures...

meanwhile, many cold-blooded murderers walk among us...

R.I.P.

Leo Del Pinto

and dozens more

[jayboy]

Those of us who were in the country when K. Taksin geed up the police to "arrest" known drug dealers knew that it would be abused by all and sundry...It got so bad that even people who had sold their house were terrified of a police squad banging on the door at midnight and being one of the "disappeared" by morning.

Hundreds of people were killed because they had "unexplained wealth", the police didn't bother to investigate they just went out and killed them, with the PM's approval...remember when he was asked by the media how far the police should go...his reply was along the lines of "if they have nothing to hide, why should they run?"

I think the question should be...Where do they get these Psychopaths in the first place? Surely they should become obvious in any Psych test to join the service? To kill without thought is not natural or normal, soldiers don't kill indiscriminately, loading people onto trucks face down and then piling other people on top is only stupid, not psychotic?

To solve the problem, have a truth and reconciliation commission, clean the slates, fire the mentally ill and move on!

That is a pure exaggeration and hyperbole.

The vast majority of people who got killed were in the drug business. At the time it was not exactly a secret who is in the business, as it is now. Anyone who lives in a Thai community (as opposed to some expat apartment tower block or walled off mu ban), and interacts with the people, knows exactly who is involved in the drug business, and who isn't. The drug business is a public business, people send drugs, stand on corners selling drugs, deliver drugs, and are suddenly able to buy houses, cars and other nice things without any other source of income, from the profits.

In between the drug related killings there were many other personal or business conflict solved under "drug war killings", exactly the same way as nowadays everybody who is killed in the three southern provinces is automatically counted as insurgency related, even though many of those killed are over various other reasons.

Nevertheless, the killings should never have happened. It is good that the Kalasin killings come to court. I very much doubt though that much will come out of it, and not much will or can be done over the many other killings. A few police officers who received orders might take the fall at best, but the system will not change. The ones who gave the orders will not be punished, because you will not find any documentation of these orders. There never is in such cases.

But i doubt very much that the other security agencies who took part in the party will be touched. It wasn't just police - it was border patrol police, militias and army as well. Then you have the whole apparatus of the bureaucracy as well. The media which has supported it at the time. Etc.

The system that enabled these killings and other such extrajudicial actions has not changed though. It is still in place, and useful to the government, and whoever else needs it for whatever purpose. Proof of this is the setting up of the Blue Shirts by this government - a militia to fight Red Shirts. This is the same mechanics. A few police officers charged will not change the enabling system. Until this system is tackled - i will not get exited over this.

How dare you change the tone of our debate by introducing a few home truths.Are you not aware that the only way to frame this discussion is to identify Thaksin as wholly responsible and as the snake whose head must be crushed? What is the point of complicating matters by insisting the truth, pitiful and depressing as it is, must be told.The way you carry on some might get the impression that there is something rotten in the system, and that the exile of the Great Satan has changed nothing.Please be more careful in what you say.The main purpose of this thread is to bask in ignorant self satisfaction and mouth moral platitudes (and of course congratulate each other on our virtue).If you want to introduce something as awkward and complicated as the truth, please go elsewhere.

[marshbags]

Thaksin did a wonderful job of getting rid of most illegal drugs from Issan.

They returned upon his untimely departure from Thai politics. Too sad.

Another purge would be welcomed.

Thaksin got stuff done.

" Stuff " done as in several thousand instances.....

Sacrificed The Underdogs For Facism

Had he been sincere and genuine in ridding the country / Issan of illegal drugs he would have surely started with the source / and the dealer, distributors........instead

Much of what is continuing on from the so called " wonderful job " ( execution style least you forgot / forget ) and the top lowlife scumbags continue to flourish, unchallenged is proof enough of his true and insincere motives.

Until now, that is, with this new incentive that has been introduced, that this thread was opened in suport of and further important debate.

He was not and instead he / they took many totally innocents out, plus innocents not yet proven guilty in a court of law and many pathetic small time drug dependant junkies who acted as mules and street distributors to feed their insane cravings while filling the illicit coffers of Thaksins higher level supporters and his own of course.

All treated by Thaksin as insignificant and expendable within his heirachy of heinous cohets, his family by association and mega bank accounts and their ilk.

marshbags

Edited May 25, 2009 by marshbags

[justanothercybertosser]

If you want to introduce something as awkward and complicated as the truth, please go elsewhere.

[Journalist]

Are you not aware that the only way to frame this discussion is to identify Thaksin as wholly responsible?

Yes, welcome back to the Thaivisa mono-topic.

[justanothercybertosser]

Had he been sincere and genuine in ridding the country / Issan of illegal drugs he would have surely started with the source / and the dealer, distributors........instead

Yes, of course, and that is so easy.

The main source at the time has been in Burma, especially Wa State. Great, we are going to start a war in a foreign country against the best equipped and trained minority army in the whole region, which is allied with one of the largest national armies in the region. very good idea...

The dealers? Which dealers are you talking about? The large scale dealers? It is so easy to get to them, isn't it, they are not protected by the system? The mid and small scale dealers? Well - they were targeted. And many lost their lives, or fled abroad, to the provinces.

Undoubtedly the killings were unlawful. I will not justify the killings, but one of the reasons why the drug war killings are still very much popular, and not just under his supporters, but also his opponents, is that they did reduce the drugs tremendously. In most villages amphetamines simply were not available anymore after the drug war, and in many urban communities were only available with difficulties for prices that have increased almost tenfold (from 35 to 45 baht a pill to about 400 baht a pill).

Only since the beginning of the political turmoil the drugs made a comeback, slowly first during the coup era, and massively since last year's street protests. The prices now came down slightly as well, between 180 and 250 baht a pill.

Additionally, lets be objective. The drug war did not just consist of the brutal extrajudicial killings. For the first time a separation between user and dealer was made, users got fined, and were sent to re-education camps mostly run by the army (several hundred thousand users were sent to these camps). One may debate the quality of the therapy run by unqualified soldiers, but there was an attempt of modernization where previously only prison sentences were dished out. Dealers were sent to long term prison sentences, more than 50 000 (and of course - many were killed).

Opportunities were given for Heroin addicts to get methadone therapy, including a card issued by these places so that during the regular drug tests these people could pass.

Complete screw ups happened as well. For example pharmacies were not allowed anymore to sell injection needles to users, so that many had to resort to employing used needles, raising the HIV infection rate under intravenous drug users. But lets not forget that also many pharmacies made a brisk business selling prescription drugs such as Dormicum and diet pills to users.

The drug war has to be seen in context. Abuses (such as the killings) have to be condemned, successes have to be recognized. And it has to be properly analyzed what wrongs in the system enabled the killings, but also what enabled the rise of drugs in the first place. And there we have some very uncomfortable truths that many here refuse to accept.

Edited May 25, 2009 by justanothercybertosser

[Journalist]

Waiting for the News Clippings Forum to be established.

and once that was done, a few of us have been making posts on the subject for quite some time...

Did you take your advocacy beyond Thaivisa? Eg chambers of commerce? Letters to the papers? One man crusade on Sriracha town hall steps.

If you did I am going to be impressed, as Thaksin was still in power and could have had any vocal anti-drug war opponent knocked off too.

Advocacy in here is fine, but of course, its preaching to sedentary people who are non-activist by nature. So its hard to be a dynamic agent for change herein.

Maybe you already worked that out !

[hammered]

What a lot forget to look at when considering this issue is who inherited the (majority of the) drug trade after the war. There was a realignment or shall we say it became a lot more monoplistic for at least quite some time.

It wasnt just about doing something brutal and amking many people happy. It resulted in advantaging a certain major "group" too and that has ramifications to this very day.

[justanothercybertosser]

What a lot forget to look at when considering this issue is who inherited the (majority of the) drug trade after the war. There was a realignment or shall we say it became a lot more monoplistic for at least quite some time.

It wasnt just about doing something brutal and amking many people happy. It resulted in advantaging a certain major "group" too and that has ramifications to this very day.

Sorry, unless you are a bit more specific, this is just conspiracy theory style hearsay.

I guess that you specify TRT allied forces. Well, that is only natural and unavoidable in a place like Thailand, that provincial and underground power networks will ally themselves with the larger power in the state. That does not mean though that the larger power in the state condones this necessarily, especially when it comes to drug based networks. This is one of the many uncomfortable truths that i hinted at, which are a fault of the system beyond what any politician or government can change easily.

The same way you have had many of such underground networks who have lost out during TRT days paying large sums to the PAD. If you look at many of the provincial PAD chapters, you will find that they consist of money lenders and underground lottery networks, both who have heavily lost out during TRT days, by either the village loan scemes and the lottery policies of TRT.

In terms of the drug war, of course TRT allied networks have survived it much better than unrelated drug networks. Nevertheless, the amount of drugs decreased so heavily, that profits have, even though the price increase, been heavily diminished by unproportionally increased risk. Don't forget, many of the drug war killings have also been silencing killings, in which those and police networks have cut off their links to themselves by killing underlings.

It is a fact that drugs did disappear for many years from many communities, were simply not available, and in many other urban communities they were far more scarce due to the risk involved. And different than in the past, police connections could not save one anymore, unless millions of baht were involved, once caught.

What i try to say here is that the spread of drugs, and the drug war were extremely complex social mechanics, direcly linked to specifics of the built up of thai society and the failings of the system. Reducing this to "evil Thaksin kills people" does not justice to these complexities. Simply going after a few triggermen and recipients of orders without papertrail may put a tiny percentage of the guilty parties to jail, but it will do nothing to the enabling system, which is still in place, untouched. A few symolic convictions will change nothing, are political, and obfuscate a system that is of use to many factions of power, including this government and its backers.

[Old Man River]

What a lot forget to look at when considering this issue is who inherited the (majority of the) drug trade after the war. There was a realignment or shall we say it became a lot more monoplistic for at least quite some time.

It wasnt just about doing something brutal and amking many people happy. It resulted in advantaging a certain major "group" too and that has ramifications to this very day.

Sorry, unless you are a bit more specific, this is just conspiracy theory style hearsay.

What i try to say here is that the spread of drugs, and the drug war were extremely complex social mechanics, direcly linked to specifics of the built up of thai society and the failings of the system. Reducing this to "evil Thaksin kills people" does not justice to these complexities. Simply going after a few triggermen and recipients of orders without papertrail may put a tiny percentage of the guilty parties to jail, but it will do nothing to the enabling system, which is still in place, untouched. A few symolic convictions will change nothing, are political, and obfuscate a system that is of use to many factions of power, including this government and its backers.

Sorry, unless you are a bit more specific, this is just conspiracy theory style hearsay.

[Texpat]

Thaksin got stuff done.

What has anybody done since?

Not squat.

Call him what you will, he was effective.

And the scumball druggies knew it.

[Old Man River]

Thaksin got stuff done.

What has anybody done since?

Not squat.

Call him what you will, he was effective.

And the scumball druggies knew it.

The problem was the collateral damage. Innocent people got caught up in the killing frenzy.