Us Green Card

[SaamBaht]

Is it possible to get a US green card for Thai spouses of US citizens while the couple still resides in Thailand?

And if yes, are there any reputable agencies out there that can assist in the process?

Thanks

[wasabi]

I think the only way is the I 130 visa process which requires you to return to the USA six months after issuance.

[Texpat]

You can apply from here.

But, seeing as it's a resident alien card, your wife will not receive it until you're living in the US.

[mmcsusnret]

The above posts are correct. It takes a period of time after your wife goes to the US to actually receive the "green card". I believe that I read somewhere, it is over a year to actually receive the card. After "activating" her visa within 6 months of the issue date, by entering the US and establishing her immigrant status, she is allowed to travel freely, but there are some time constraints on how much she can be absent from the US.

The "green card" is just a substitute for carrying her passport with the immigrant visa all of the time and has all of the pertinent information on it, so that people who may need information (such as potential employers), do not have to try to decipher the various pages of the passport.

[ubonjoe]

If you intend to live in the US the amount of time the process takes will be cut in half because you have been on a long term stay here and can submit the I-130 here. If you don't plan on moving it is not a good option or even possible.

A good place to start for info is here on the embassy website. http://bangkok.usembassy.gov/immigrant_visas.html

[Jungian]

Your wife has to live in the USA for 2 years to get a green card and permanent residency with probation, after 5 years it is permanent residency with no probation and the opportunity to take the citizen test, if she does not choose to become a citizen the green card must be renewed every 10 years.

[thaihome]

If you have been married for more then 2 years at the time your wife receives the visa, then she gets an unconditional green card.

If you live in Thailand, you can submit the I-130 to the USCIS office in Bangkok and she can get the visa in a few months (as opposed to the year or so if applying in the US). Once she gets the visa, you travel to the US the green card will mailed to her. As stated earlier, if you have been married for more then 2 years, she can leave at anytime. If you are working for an US Company on assignment to Thailand, she can apply for a re-entry permit which allows her to stay out of the US for up to 2 years. This can be renewed, but does require you to go to the US do so.

So the answer to your question is a very conditional yes. In certain circumstances your wife can get a green card while you both are living in Thailand and she can keep it even though she does not live in the US.

In addition, as you are working for a US company overseas, the 3 year residency requirement for citizenship is waived. She will have to go to the US to take the test as they do not give that overseas.

TH

[Texpat]

Your wife has to live in the USA for 2 years to get a green card and permanent residency with probation

My wife applied for, and received a green card in 2005 having previously only visited the US for three weeks.

[SaamBaht]

Thanks for all the responses! Very helpful. However, it appears that there are some differences in opinion. My wife and I have been married about six months. We married in the US. We won't be moving there for some time if ever because of her work here in Thailand. We thought it might be a good move if we got her a Green Card in case we wanted to move there or if something happened to me in the future it would be easier if we had kids and all.

I ran into a guy some years ago who said you can get a Green Card without living in the US. It did not concern me then so I didn't ask more of him.

I will start the application process and see what comes of it. Would it be better to wait two years before doing so? And Texpat, did you wait two years before applying? Was there any further requirement for her living or visiting the US.

Thanks again to all!

[Jungian]

Your wife has to live in the USA for 2 years to get a green card and permanent residency with probation

My wife applied for, and received a green card in 2005 having previously only visited the US for three weeks.

We moved to Thailand 5 years ago prior to that we lived in the USA for just under 2 years. We applied for a green card and they asked us what our plans were, we told them we planed on moving to Thailand some time in the near future but didn't know if it would be in Thailand on a long term basis or not. At this point we were told just go to Thailand because the green card will not be valid unless you stay in the USA for 2 years other than for vacation and we would need to return in 2 years to the (formerly) INS office. Anyway that was our experience so we just scrapped the entire idea for the moment. Any time I have ever wanted or needed anything the US Consulate in Chiang Mai has been quick and reasonable to get things done, so should we return to the USA I will get the papers then so we can do things properly with as little hassle as possible.

[ubonjoe]

To start the process here you will need to be on a long stay visa and been here for a while.

Until you are married for 2 years it is only be a temporary resident status. You can start the process before that date and then apply for the permanent status.

She is going to have to spend some amount of time in the States after the visa is issued. She has to enter the States using the visa to start the process of getting her green card and etc.

About the only advantage for the long term would be if she was to be a resident for a period of time would be that she could get your Social Security benefits. If you have children they will be US citizens so that is not an issue for them.

Also remember that if she gets residency she is liable for US (state, city, county and etc. also )income taxes no matter where she lives.

[thaihome]

Thanks for all the responses! Very helpful. However, it appears that there are some differences in opinion. My wife and I have been married about six months. We married in the US. We won't be moving there for some time if ever because of her work here in Thailand. We thought it might be a good move if we got her a Green Card in case we wanted to move there or if something happened to me in the future it would be easier if we had kids and all.

I ran into a guy some years ago who said you can get a Green Card without living in the US. It did not concern me then so I didn't ask more of him.

I will start the application process and see what comes of it. Would it be better to wait two years before doing so? And Texpat, did you wait two years before applying? Was there any further requirement for her living or visiting the US.

Thanks again to all!

It sounds to me that all she needs is a tourist visa. With both of you living in Thailand, and I assume you have visa extensions; it is almost automatic that she will get a tourist visa, and very likely it will be a 10 year multi entry which will satisfy your requirments. If down the road you decide to move to the US, getting the spousal visa while living in Thailand is pretty painless and quick.

A green card is very hard to keep valid if not living in the US unless you meet the criteria I described.

TH

[xjessie007]

Is it possible to get a US green card for Thai spouses of US citizens while the couple still resides in Thailand?

And if yes, are there any reputable agencies out there that can assist in the process?

Thanks

I have a friend how is planning on marying US citizen, and she was debating whether she should mary him while still in Germany or whether they should do it in the USA. They found out that if they apply for the marriage green card while still in Germany, the process takes only about 1/2 year compared to years in the USA. Just wanted to share this experience, perhaps it helps...

[DirectorIntegrityLegal]

This is one of those issues that many Thai-American clients grapple with. If the US Citizen Petitioner has been resident in Thailand for over 1 year on a residential visa (basically Category B, O, ED, retirement, or Official) then they are allowed to petition at the local USCIS office in Bangkok for an Immigrant Visa (IR-1/CR-1). By doing this the processing time can be expedited by as much as 6 months or more. An odd disconnect with this situation is the fact that one must have a US residence in order to act as an immigrant's sponsor on the I-864 affidavit of support.

The CR-1/IR-1 Visa is not technically the Permanent Residence, Lawful Permanent Residence is conferred upon entering the United States through a US port of Entry. Another common misconception is that a CR-1/IR-1 holder must "wait" to obtain a Green Card. In point of fact, the entry stamp in the Passport of a CR-1/IR-1 visa holder acts as a green card because permanent residence was conferred upon entry. It usually takes 2-3 months for the government to issue the actual Permanent Resident Card.

Hopefully this was helpful.

Good Luck!

Ben Hart

US Immigration Attorney

Integrity Legal

1-877-231-7533

[thaihome]

...An odd disconnect with this situation is the fact that one must have a US residence in order to act as an immigrant's sponsor on the I-864 affidavit of support.

...Ben Hart

US Immigration Attorney

Integrity Legal

1-877-231-7533

You don't have to be resident in the US, you only have to be domiciled. It worries me you don't seem to know the difference.

TH

From the I-864, Affidavit of Support Instructions

A sponsor isrequired to be at least 18 years old and domiciled in theUnited States, or its territories or possessions (see Step-by-step Instructions for more information on domicile).

If your mailing address and/or place of residence is not in the United States, but your country of domicile is theUnited States, you must attach a written explanation anddocumentary evidence indicating how you meet the domicile requirement. If you are not currently living in the UnitedStates, you may meet the domicile requirement if you can submit evidence to establish that any of the followingconditions apply:

A. You are employed by a certain organization.

Some individuals employed overseas are automatically considered to be domiciled in the United States because of the nature of their employment. ....

B. You are living abroad temporarily.

If you are not currently living in the United States, you must show that your trip abroad is temporary and that you have maintained your domicile in the United States....

C. You intend in good faith to reestablish your domicile inthe United States no later than the date of the intending immigrant's admission or adjustment of status....

[CWMcMurray]

...An odd disconnect with this situation is the fact that one must have a US residence in order to act as an immigrant's sponsor on the I-864 affidavit of support.

...Ben Hart

US Immigration Attorney

Integrity Legal

1-877-231-7533

You don't have to be resident in the US, you only have to be domiciled. It worries me you don't seem to know the difference.

TH

From the I-864, Affidavit of Support Instructions

A sponsor isrequired to be at least 18 years old and domiciled in theUnited States, or its territories or possessions (see Step-by-step Instructions for more information on domicile).

Just to be fair...

I believe he does know the difference... he doesn't say you need to "be a resident or reside in the US" he states that you need to "have a residence" which is really the same thing as "having a domicile in the US".

I do not think he was going into legaleeze and parcing "what the meaning of is ...is" here.

Kinda sounds like you are saying "its not big... its large". I believe most reasonably intelligent folks who have looked into the process can understand his meaning.

Edited May 27, 2009 by CWMcMurray

[thaihome]

He said it was a “disconnect”, and it is not at all. You don't have to have a residence or even a mailing address in the US to have domicile. You can prove domicile pretty much by just having filed taxes every year you were gone. As a matter of fact, you don't even have to have domicile at the time of application, you just have to prove you intend in good faith to reestablish your domicile before admission.

That is not just "legalese", that is a big difference for someone that has been living in Thailand and is considering applying for a CR-1/IR-1 Visa and its coming from someone that is in the business of helping people do this.

TH

[mdechgan]

You cannot get a green card for your spouse unless she is in the U.S. The whole idea and point of the green card is for an alien to work and reside in the U.S. legally and permanently. My father had to give us his green card because he lives in Thailand and was out of the U.S. more than the allowed 6 months or 1 year (I don't remember).

My wife is under the same circumstances. The lady at the counselate just gave us a tourist visa because she would be allowed to fly in and out of the U.S. for 10 years the only exception she can't stay in the U.S. longer than 6 months and is not allowed to work. Which is what we wanted in the 1st place.

[thaihome]

You cannot get a green card for your spouse unless she is in the U.S. The whole idea and point of the green card is for an alien to work and reside in the U.S. legally and permanently. My father had to give us his green card because he lives in Thailand and was out of the U.S. more than the allowed 6 months or 1 year (I don't remember).

...

That is generally true, but there are exceptions. I know several people that live outside the US and maintain their Green Cards. All are either employees on overseas assignments for an American Company or dependents of people that are. One just renewed his 2 year re-entry permit for himself and wife for the second time earlier this year.

TH

[mdechgan]

That is generally true, but there are exceptions. I know several people that live outside the US and maintain their Green Cards. All are either employees on overseas assignments for an American Company or dependents of people that are. One just renewed his 2 year re-entry permit for himself and wife for the second time earlier this year.

TH

Yes but obtaining a green card and maintaining it are two different matters.

[DirectorIntegrityLegal]

For the Purpose of defining domicile and residence I lifted this definition a website dealing with the same issue in the Immigration and Nationality Act:

"Domicile means the place where a sponsor has a residence, as defined in section 101(a)(33) of the Act in the United States, with the intention to maintain that residence for the foreseeable future"

Residence Defined - INA Section 101 (a) (33):

"The term "residence" means the place of general abode; the place of general abode of a person means his principal, actual dwelling place in fact, without regard to intent."

As seen above, in order to meet the definition of domicile, one must first meet the definition of residence. I see a "disconnect" because, how can a person's "principal, actual dwelling place in fact," be in the USA when they live in Thailand? In my previous post, I thought about using the term domicile, but I used the term residence because the term is easier to nail down than domicile (which involves the slippery notion of intent) and, as can be seen from the above definition, one cannot have domicile without residence, so therefore why deal with domicile at the outset if one cannot first establish residence? Further, in order to, "prove you intend in good faith to reestablish your domicile," one should have an abode in order to first meet the definition of residence which is necessary to meet the definition of domicile.

I would say that it is possible in certain instances to square this circle, one can maintain a domicile in the USA, but move to Thailand and take up residence for a long period of time. An example of this might be a corporate employee in Thailand on a so-called "expat package," in this example the person leaves their residence in the USA with the intent to return after their long term employment package expires. If the employment package lasts for 2 years, then at the outset of employment and presence in Thailand I think it could be safely argued that the employee was "resident in Thailand." If the person were present in Thailand for 1 year on a non-Immigrant Business Visa, but still intended to return home after their contract was complete, then this person would neatly meet all elements for visa application at the local USCIS office as well as the domicile requirement imposed by the affidavit of support because he has a Residence in Thailand that he does not imminently wish to abandon and an abode in the USA that he intends to return to.This whole legal house of cards can be brought down where the Consular Officer makes a factual determination that the petitioner has no domicile in the USA. My point in this rather pedantic analysis is the fact that a situation that neatly fits with the law can be somewhat difficult to contrive (which is not to say these situations do not occur, expat package holders get married in Thailand and petition for Immigrant visas for their spouses with differing degrees of success).

A situation that does not fit so neatly into the legal framework could involve the same man, only now there is no expat package, no abode maintained in the United States. He has been resident in Thailand for one year, and during that year has not had any particular intention to return to the USA. When filing the I-130 application he contends that his residence is in Thailand. Establishing idomicile can be somewhat difficult because the element of residence is missing and the notion that no abode is necessary goes against the definition of residence and domicile in the Immigration and Nationality Act. More difficult than establishing mere intent for domicile purposes is the need to actually have an abode as required by the definition.

Finally, although I appreciate the open discourse that this forum offers and there are always situations when people (including myself) can be wrong I do not appreciate having my intelligence and professionalism impugned. When writing my above post, I thought about using the term domicile, but in the interests of concision, I decided to use the term residence, because without a residence one cannot establish a domicile. Perhaps this was a mistake, but in my experience, the intent of the party filing for an Immigrant visa is not usually an issue (obviously one wishes to retun to the USA if they are filing for a permanent resident visa on behalf of their spouse). Instead, the more pressing concern is having residence in order to establish a domicile. In summation, the "disconnects" can occur where one has the intent, but not the residence, and a different residence at the time of filing the petition, than at the time of submitting the I-864 affidavit of support.

The US Foreign Service has recognized this "disconnect," even where laymen have not. In order to square this circle the FAM (Foreign Affairs Manual) gives a foreign service officer the authority to accept an I-864 affidavit of support where the petitioner has taken affirmative steps to terminate his or her domicile in Thailand (or other foreign country), and has taken further affirmative steps to reestablish domicile in the United States. This regulation does not mean that the inherent conflict between these two requirements does not exist, instead, it merely gives consular officers guidance about what to do in cases where this type of situation arises.This solution implicitly acknowledges the "disconnect" I was speaking about in a previous post.

I hope this cleared up any confusion.

Good Luck!

Ben Hart

US Immigration Attorney

Integrity Legal

1-877-231-7533

+66 02 266 3698

[SaigonDaze]

My wife received a CR-1 Visa and I did not have a residence in the USA. So as noted above, it is not necessary to have a residence in order to get the Visa.

[thaihome]

Here is what the instructions for the I-864 affidavit of support says about people that are living abroad temporarily:

B. You are living abroad temporarily.

If you are not currently living in the United States, you must show that your trip abroad is temporary and that you have maintained your domicile in the United States. You can show this by providing proof of your voting record in the United States, proof of paying U.S. State or local taxes, proof of having property in the United States, proof of maintaining bank or investment accounts in the United States, or proof of having a permanent mailing address in the United States.Other proof could be evidence that you are a student studying abroad or that a foreign government has authorized a temporary stay.

If the poster feels he has had his "intelligence and professionalism impugned" then I apologize, that was not my intent. My point was you said they had to maintain residency and you still seem to think that is true, but the fact and reality is it is not. It is relatively easy to prove domicile while living overseas for a long period, even if you have not maintained a “residence”. A mailing address, yes, but not a residence.

TH

[hellohello]

We are in the similar situation,

I have a stateside address but we file CAL taxes as non-resident for 4 years

This is a grey area for us.

How is it relatively easy to prove domicile while living overseas? Aside from a mailing address?

How can a SELF employed petitioner take affirmative steps to terminate his domicile in Thailand (or other foreign country), and take further affirmative steps to reestablish domicile in the United States???

I really appreciate your response guys, thanks!

Mdechgan, so after your wife procured a green card or PR, then they gave your wife a 10 year visa, since you could no longer keep the same status after returning t0 thailand?

[DirectorIntegrityLegal]

Under the law, domicile is necessary in order to file an I-864 Affidavit of Support. A component of Domicile is residence, from the Department of State website:

"Sponsorship Requirements

A sponsor must be at least 18 years old and either an American citizen or a lawful permanent resident (LPR). The sponsor must also have a domicile (residence) in the United States...

Domicile is a complex issue and must be determined on a case by case basis. To qualify as a sponsor, a petitioner who is residing abroad must have a principal residence in the U.S. and intend to maintain that residence for the foreseeable future...

Can a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident (LPR) petitioner who is not domiciled (living) in the United States be a sponsor?

No. The law requires that sponsors be domiciled (live) in any of the States of the United States, the District of Columbia, or any territory or possession of the United States."

This is where things get a bit tricky because down they somewhat contradict themselves:

"When a sponsor has clearly not maintained a domicile in the United States, he/she will need to re-establish a U.S. domicile in order for him/her to be a sponsor."

Here the US State department has created a legal fiction in order to deal with expat domicile situations.

Tellingly, they go further in explaining this precarious issue:

"If the sponsor establishes U.S. domicile, it is not necessary for the sponsor to go to the United States before the sponsored family members. However, the sponsored immigrant may not enter the United States before the sponsor returns to the United States to live. The sponsored immigrant must travel with the sponsor or after the sponsor has entered the United States."

The reason the State Department will allow the immigrant to precede the petitioner where domicile has already been established in fact is that the petitioner has met the statutory requirement of domicile which requires residence. The Immigrant cannot precede the petitioner where the petitioner is merely in the process of re-establishing domicile because the petitioner has not actually met the statutory definition of domicile until he reaches the USA.

This is a strange situation and has been the subject of widespread debate and numerous cables within the State Department. The instructions on the I-864 are the practical result of the State Department grappling with this issue, but where domicile cannot be shown to exist in fact, the issue is not a "slam dunk" and is left to the consular officer to determine whether the petitioner has taken affirmative steps to re-establish domicile in the USA.

This website goes into greater detail regarding things that they deem to be evidence of one's affirmative steps to re-establish domicile.

Edited June 3, 2009 by DirectorIntegrityLegal

[SaigonDaze]

"To qualify as a sponsor, a petitioner who is residing abroad must have a principal residence in the U.S. and intend to maintain that residence for the foreseeable future..."

Sounds like the State Dept needs to update their information. As I said, my wife was granted a Visa and I did not have a principal residence in the USA (had been living overseas for 4 years).

[DirectorIntegrityLegal]

Its a very semantic notion, but they create the legal fiction of residence in order to deal with this, but it only goes so far because they still have to deal with the black letter law. This is why an expat's wife cannot precede the petitioner because the expat's residence is reestablished upon entry into the USA, by preceding the petitioner, his residence requirement has not been met at the time of entry and therefore remains ineligible for sponsorship. When he enters before beneficiary or simultaneously, then the residential requirement is deemed to have been met at the time of entry even though it technically wasn't when the I-864 was submitted.

Many many cables have been exchanged throughout the State Department regarding this issue because it is a difficult one to grapple with for experts, laymen, and State Department officials.