Illegal To Use Thai Spouse As Nominee In Land Ownership

[johnefallis]

I say we all look at the bright side and not only support and allow this policy to be implemented, but to insist on it. It's about time the women had to buy the dam_n house. Heck, while we're at it, make them buy the cars, clothes, jewelry, and even the beer.

Then EVERYBODY will love Thailand!!!!

[chiangdan]

Can a mixed race thai own land or is he/she still considered farang

No, if they have a Thai passport they are Thai so no issue owning land

I have to dispute this. Regardless if they have a thai passport or not there are still catches. If they hold dual citizenship and have spent more time abroad than in thailand ie for study/work etc then they may be considered farang. They then have to prove thier intention to return to thailand and remain a permanent resident. Can you imagine the thai authorities simply alowing a person who was born in thailand to one thai parent and a thai citizen becoming a property developer living permanently abroad and moving all profits from his deals in thailand to his other home country. He would be considered farang and not thai.

[liloldspirut]

I think he's talking out of his arse. Typical non-sensicle statement that you can always count on a high-level Thai civil servant to make on most occasions. I agree, it should do wonders to help slag-off all the million dollar "villas" for sale to silly foreigners who were thinking about buying in Phuket.

With unintellegent fools like this in high office, its no wonder that Thailand is slowly going downhill. And although its only my guess, i bet that he is of Chinese decent ?????

Thanks to the Internet todays Thai youngsters are more sophisticated. This is a threat to the Thai Elite that controls every part of Thai Culture. They are mostly of Chinese decent, in actuality Chinese OF Thai Decent. Thai Cultural Sophistication Equats to Thai Elitist's lost of Power. In simple Vernaculer 'Has beens!' and they do not like that.

[chiangdan]

Rightly or wrongly, the purpose of the law (or regulation) is to stop farangs using their wives as "nominees" to own land.

Of course what frequently happens is not that the farang manages to successfully circumvent the land law, but that the Thai wife kicks out the farang and ends up owning an expensive house which she can dispose of how she sees fit and keep the proceeds.

The farang will not own the land and never can. The thai wife (national) will own the land and thus always staying in thai hands. I think this thread is about the victimisation of thai women who chose to marry a farang thus restricting them to own land something that is afforded to every other thai woman. I guess they don't like farangs or are jealous of a thai lady who marries one. Punish her this way

Edited May 28, 2009 by chiangdan

[rethaired]

I think he's talking out of his arse. Typical non-sensicle statement that you can always count on a high-level Thai civil servant to make on most occasions. I agree, it should do wonders to help slag-off all the million dollar "villas" for sale to silly foreigners who were thinking about buying in Phuket.

With unintellegent fools like this in high office, its no wonder that Thailand is slowly going downhill. And although its only my guess, i bet that he is of Chinese decent ?????

Chinese, not Thai! So, is he a foreigner? So, if this is true, this guy better not hold any land! Right? But, I guess that there are different rules for people of Chinese decent? Right? If these guys continue, they certainly are NOT going to see ANY significant money from me AND they better hold on tight because soon there will be fewer and fewer tourists and retirees coming to LOST: the Land of Smile Transgressed. Maybe they have a back up plan though!

[Artisi]

Rightly or wrongly, the purpose of the law (or regulation) is to stop farangs using their wives as "nominees" to own land.

Of course what frequently happens is not that the farang manages to successfully circumvent the land law, but that the Thai wife kicks out the farang and ends up owning an expensive house which she can dispose of how she sees fit and keep the proceeds.

I think this thread is about the victimisation of thai women who chose to marry a farang thus restricting them to own land something that is afforded to every other thai woman.

A completely untrue statement.

Thai women married to non-Thai can own own land.

My wife has her name on 2 lots of land in her married name, all legal and documented.

[Capealava]

So My wife and I were thinking of buying a house --She will apply for a loan from the Bank. I will give her 1,000,000 baht for down payment and help with loan Payments when necessary. Everything in her name of course. Is this a "legal in light of this statement:

PHUKET CITY: The director general of the Land Department has reiterated that foreigners using Thai nominees to buy land anywhere in the country will have their land title deeds revoked if caught – even if the nominee in question is a lawfully wedded spouse.

“If the Thai spouse has enough money to buy the house that is fine, but if the Thai has no money and uses money given to him or her by a foreigner to acquire property, that is against the law. If we check and find out later that a Thai person has been using money from a foreigner to buy land anywhere in Thailand, we will revoke title deeds,” he said.

Also since in reality the bank owns the property until loan is complete, creating a "USUFRUCT" is not a way to protect yourself in case of major domestic problems in this case. RIGHT ??

SINCE

How do I register a usufruct?

I order to create a usufruct right, both the land owner and you need to enter into an agreement wherein you are given the usufruct right. You then need to register this agreement with the land registration office where the land title deed is kept.

Anyone out there have any experience with this scenario ??

[makescents]

My advice: Buy jack shit, rent!!

Best advice on the thread.

[chiangdan]

Rightly or wrongly, the purpose of the law (or regulation) is to stop farangs using their wives as "nominees" to own land.

Of course what frequently happens is not that the farang manages to successfully circumvent the land law, but that the Thai wife kicks out the farang and ends up owning an expensive house which she can dispose of how she sees fit and keep the proceeds.

I think this thread is about the victimisation of thai women who chose to marry a farang thus restricting them to own land something that is afforded to every other thai woman.

A completely untrue statement.

Thai women married to non-Thai can own own land.

My wife has her name on 2 lots of land in her married name, all legal and documented.

Yes maybe true but given the original post she may loose that land if it is proved that you gave her any of the money to purchase that land.

[chiangmaibruce]

I'm very much interested inthis idea of kids (with Thai pasport) taking the title deed, or at least having it put in trust for them. I can't find any threads on this matter though. Can anyone help me out with this please.

www.thaivisa.com/forum/Puting-Kid-s-Name-t78581.html

www.thaivisa.com/forum/Land-Title-Minors-t153985.html

www.thaivisa.com/forum/Ownership-Land-Thai-Minors-t107953.html

www.thaivisa.com/forum/Minimum-Age-Thai-Owning-Property-t132483.html

www.thaivisa.com/forum/Buy-Land-Sons-s-t138746.html

[Hanimal]

I don't think Thai officials compare Thailand with other countries when stating the law. Agreed, it is a bad law, but discrimination in Thailand is a given. I am surprised that our puppet prime minister (who doubtless will inherit property in the UK if he hasn't already) has better things to worry about. Every nation needs to keep its pride by doing things its own way. If people have bought their wives property, then they were aware that they were on iffy legal ground from the beginning. Buy four condos and knock down the walls and you have a very decent living space, probably with a swimming pool and sauna as part of the facilities (not in mine unfortunately). Buying land means every penny you spend is going into a deep, dark hole. Frankly, this official is not going to frighten anyone away from Thailand - he didnt say you guys are not welcome, just that you guys are not welcome to break the law. You have to differentiate between legal and illegal.

[rethaired]

Rightly or wrongly, the purpose of the law (or regulation) is to stop farangs using their wives as "nominees" to own land.

Of course what frequently happens is not that the farang manages to successfully circumvent the land law, but that the Thai wife kicks out the farang and ends up owning an expensive house which she can dispose of how she sees fit and keep the proceeds.

The farang will not own the land and never can. The thai wife (national) will own the land and thus always staying in thai hands. I think this thread is about the victimisation of thai women who chose to marry a farang thus restricting them to own land something that is afforded to every other thai woman.

Who is being victimized? That is the question! The farang who is getting into a conditional type of relationship, buys land with some hard-earned money thinking all is nice, and loses before he kicks the bucket? Or is it the one who gets the land for free, for whatever reason? Half each after a few years is reasonable. Anything else is criminal.

[Robbie Dye]

It will matter not as loan when translated into thai is gift, so, the wife is the rightful owner, no problem, next !

Not true

Thank God!

[chiangdan]

So My wife and I were thinking of buying a house --She will apply for a loan from the Bank. I will give her 1,000,000 baht for down payment and help with loan Payments when necessary. Everything in her name of course. Is this a "legal in light of this statement:

PHUKET CITY: The director general of the Land Department has reiterated that foreigners using Thai nominees to buy land anywhere in the country will have their land title deeds revoked if caught – even if the nominee in question is a lawfully wedded spouse.

"If the Thai spouse has enough money to buy the house that is fine, but if the Thai has no money and uses money given to him or her by a foreigner to acquire property, that is against the law. If we check and find out later that a Thai person has been using money from a foreigner to buy land anywhere in Thailand, we will revoke title deeds," he said.

Also since in reality the bank owns the property until loan is complete, creating a "USUFRUCT" is not a way to protect yourself in case of major domestic problems in this case. RIGHT ??

SINCE

How do I register a usufruct?

I order to create a usufruct right, both the land owner and you need to enter into an agreement wherein you are given the usufruct right. You then need to register this agreement with the land registration office where the land title deed is kept.

Anyone out there have any experience with this scenario ??

tell her to buy it on her own do not give her money you will be breaking the law.

[dirkthai]

Well I think that there is a lot of Jealousy .....

A Bargirl can be within a couple of months a millionair , while a family member of a politician has to work and accept bribes there whole live and maybe never will be a millionair.

Bargirl get picked up by Farang , they Marry , most of the time not even on paper ... buy land / houses etc etc.

After a few years they start to selling it and get wealthy ...

The Bargirl have reach a higher status then a daughter of a politician.

En 9 out of 10 the bargirl speaks better English then the daughter of a politician who have a univercity degree.

Lets see what will be the next joke....

[chiangdan]

Really I do not see what the problem is. I am farang and if I bought a small plot of land to build a house on and if I decided to leave thailand I can't dig it up and take it back to Australia with me. Australian quarantine authorities won't even let me in with dirty shoes so how am I going to get in with a house plot in my suitcase.

[stingray]

Why buy, when rentals are so cheap. I had the same plan to buy a house for 2.5 Million, but i changed my plans because i can rent a similar house in a much better location for only 11'000 Baht. So i don't see the reason to buy a house. Rentals is allways better, because you can go away anytime without big losses. So i made a 3 year rental contract now. All what i can lose is one month deposit of 11'000 Baht. I recommend anyone to do this way, because if they can't sell their houses to farangs, prices will drop dramaticly anyway and rentals as well. Rent it, why you want the headache. 50% of the farangs loses their houses anyway. With rent is no risk.

[RaiBerg]

....I think this thread is about the victimisation of thai women who chose to marry a farang thus restricting them to own land something that is afforded to every other thai woman....

I don't know if this was discussed earlier (I just popped in):

I am shocked. Still in the dark ages. Are these Thai women citizen second class? Is it legal to discriminate against Thai women who are married to foreigners? Can it be illegal for a husband to help his wife buy property?

What about if she receives 'help' from a loan shark and byes property? Is this legal?

I am not asking for the modus operandi – I ask for the legality to put Thais in two classes with completely different legal rights!

Did the Law Society Of Thailand comment on this issue?

[chiangdan]

Can anyone tell me how much land or property this politician or in fact any other thai person owns in other countries? A bit like I want yours but don't touch mine. Children I want to play with your toys but you can't play with mine...

[liloldspirut]

Have just set up biz in Cambodia.

Companies can be fully 100 % owned and operated by Foreigners without having to take on Cambodian staff/partners.

100 % ownership possibility of condominiums is underway (will be effective within 2 months)

Everybody speaks very good English and is capable of thinking for themselves.

It's just a car drive (or a 50 minute flight) from Phnom Penh to the major Thai sin cities of Bangkok and Pataya, if you might be affraid of missing that action.

No restraints on bringing in or taking out foreign currencies.

Just to name a few !

So what is keeping all these Farang in Thailand, which does not want you anyhow ???

Please explain !!

Where can I find out more. Is Corruption as bad as here in Thailand or worse? I am ready and my Thai/American wife.

[stingray]

Basicly we foreigners should see the oppisote way and learn to understand, that this kind of law not only have the dark side. This law protecting us from loosing houses. If we can't loan monwy to thai wifes, than we can't lose the houses. Personally i think this law isn't that bad. Rentals are so cheap.

[xylophone]

I live in Phuket and sent an e-mail to the editor of the Phuket Gazette requesting clarification of the statement, especially if it was not reported exactly as spoken??

As yet, I have received no reply.

However surely there has to be someone who reads this web site, and who is well connected through a law firm who can seek clarification as to exactly what the situation is. For example, "giving" your Thai partner money to buy land upon which the house you purchase sits, then leasing it back from her is the way that many of the farang/Thai partnerships work, and this has been "sanctioned" by thousands of lawyers in Phuket because they have set the purchases up this way.

Is this illegal, is this the situation to which this government official was referring; if not what is the situation, and did he really mean what he said, i.e. was he misquoted??.

Surely some government/legal statement is required.

[Kaojai]

Next time over there (??), withdraw every baht from her accounts, burn the bankbooks and open a new account at a different bank.

Anybody who already "owns" land through the spouse has a better idea how to beat the system? How else can they proof that the money used to purchase the land came from you and wasn't legitimately earned by your Tirak?

Typical Thai Visa message board approach.

(1)Complain about Thais enforcing existing laws or closing loopholes followed by a call for suggestions on new ways to break the law or find new loopholes.

(2)Then when there is attempt to deal with those who are bending or breaking the law, complain further that Thais are always changing the rules.

(3) Follow up with the 1001st announcement that no more foreign investment will ever take place in Thailand or no more tourists will ever come to Thailand or that all the (visa running) "residents" will move where they are wanted.

.

It's time to say ....Sayanaro to foreign investment

Lather, Repeat, Rinse.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Kaojai

[Foggy Bottom]

From Bangkok Post 12 Dec 1997 (off hard disk saved copy - cannot supply link to Bkk Post website unfortunately)

Condos 'are for mosquitoes, foreigners'

Thais don't want to live in them: Vatana

Deputy Interior Minister Vatana Asavahame claimed yesterday that few Thai people live in condominium units, which he described as "places for mosquitoes".

Mr Vatana announced that he would be pressing for amendments to two property laws to bring in foreign investment and raise revenue.

"If the bills are passed, they will attract foreign buyers and we'll get more money. Not many Thais live in condos. They are places for mosquitoes," he said.

The Condominium Amendment Bill seeks to increase ownership rights of foreigners from 40 per cent of total units to 49 per cent.

The Land Amendment Bill would allow a foreigner to own a one-rai plot if married to a Thai or if no less than 25 million baht has been invested in a business or activities that benefit the country.

The two bills have been approved by the cabinet, pending a debate in Parliament.

Mr Vatana said that he is ready to provide clarification to Parliament when it considers the two bills, adding that the bills face opposition.

He said the Land Department would have a lot of work to do if the bills are passed by Parliament.

Mr Vatana was speaking to a group of senior department officials.

He asked them to be swift with the issuance of land rights documents so that the state can collect fees and taxes.

He also asked them to be fair in investigating 200 land officials facing disciplinary action.

A total of 48 officials have been dismissed for misconduct.

Vichian Ratanapirapong, the department director-general, sought Mr Vatana's support for the planned relocation of the department to Lam Luk Ka.

The relocation site has been planned in a new government centre in Chaeng Wattana.

The department chief said the 50-rai plot in Lam Luk Ka has been donated but has yet to be properly transferred to the Land Department.

-------

Edit - forgot to add - In Dec 1997, Thailand also had a Democrat government (under the leadership of Chuan Leekpai - Abhisit's mentor) and was attempting to recover from the 1997 Financial Crash, Thai Rak Thai was just a twinkle in Thaksin's eye and he was still friends and business partner with Sonthi. PAD had not even appeared in one of Sonthi's dreams, and the Baht was trading in the high 70's against the Pound Sterling, and the mid 40's against the Dollar.

Those few highlights show a very different political and economic situation to this year's - even with the global recession - and it may be why muppets like the LO Director feel they can make the statements he did. H

However, I also remember when Thaksin ordered the repayment of the IMF loan (against all advice from the Bank of Thailand) he also stated it saw "the end of foreign influence in the Thai monetary system and economy" and he ordered some day at the end of July each year to be Thai Independence Day with the national flag to be flown from every building on that day.

The economic woes of the last year, and the other non-economic pressures, affecting Thai tourism and exports have certainly given reason for Thai economists and politicians to remember the lessons of the last Democrat government (1997-2001), but obviously they have not learned from those years.

Som nam na mai?

Edited May 28, 2009 by Gaz Chiangmai

[takiszante77]

This is not a democrasy. It is dictarorship. All couples must be free do anything they want. I think Mr Anuwat (small cock monkey) is jealous.

[InterestedObserver]

When are all the foreigners going to learn. Despite what all the real estate agents would have you believe, it is still illegal for a foreigner to own land in Thailand, that's the law and using nominees won't change it. What Thai, in their right mind, would use their own money for a 51% stake in a land ownership business and then turn control of the property over to a foreigner with a majority of the the voting shares.

Edited May 28, 2009 by InterestedObserver

[wrecker]

If a person is legally married in a general way, this is a bullocks statement from this person. Money made by one partner is shared, unless this gentleman has a bad marriage and i too busy with his mia nois.

It is however a very good idea to confiscate retroactively property held by rich Thais in the West. It would make them undertsnad a bit better how real life works.

[srisatch]

Thais cannot use foreigners money??? Wow .. this is the first time that I hear not only foreigners are dirty and not welcome here but also foreigner's MONEY is dirty and not welcome here.

When the Bank of Asia existed...now Rattanokosin they would not lend my wife money to buy an apartment because...it was her money and income earned in the UK...."it was not Thai money"........What would revocation look like...is there a form!!??

[sassienie]

This land/property ACT in Thailand has been in forced since the Stone Age.

I hope this law does become strictly imposed as abuse of the land/property ACTs has been going on for years. Such as marriages of convenience or using a Thai spouse to gain a foot hold in Thailand.

I don’t wish to see Farangs given any sort of powers in Thailand. The land authorities have been turning a blind eye and permitting Farangs to buy properties and businesses for under the counter payments. I have met Farangs who are boasting that, this is Thailand, we can do anything we like here, nothing can stop us, Thailand is a soft touch and a joke.

The main culprits are the Thai authorities themselves that have ways of getting around the laws by corruption. The Government’s main priority should be to clamp down on these people first.

My Thai wife was the secretary for her Uncle who was the Thai ambassador for England. She earned more money than me and we have documents to prove it. Our land and home here in Thailand was given to our daughter. This is as a safeguard, in case of in the event my wife dies before me. Meaning that, if a Farang uses his money illegally to buy land/property in a Thai name and has no evidence that the purchase monies are actually the funds of the Thai person, he could come unstuck in the future if the Thai person dies or the Thai name decides that the Farang has forfilled his purpose. Corruption is a risky business, even in Thailand.

If the authorities really do begin enforcing these laws in real terms, than this will be as an example to others who consider having money is a ticket to contravene the laws of Thailand.

[Marksamui]

I found this which might help:

For registration of land to a Thai national married to a foreigner proof is required that the money used to purchase the land is legally the Thai spouse's. In case of acquisition of land or in some cases condominium at the Land Department;

1. the Thai spouse has to show evidence that all money paid is a personal property (Sin Suan Tua) according to section 1471 and section 1472 of the Civil and Commercial Code, or;

2. that the Thai and his/her spouse must present themselves at the Land Office (*) to confirm in a standard Land Office letter of confirmation that all money paid for the property is personal property (Sin Suan Tua) not a common property (Sin Som Ros). Translation Regulation

So as long as your wife had a Sin Suan Tua in place or does stating that the money paid for the property is personal properrty then you should be ok?

The fact that the money might have previously been given as a gift should not be revelant as the money according to thai law would now be personel rather than common.......

Anyway I think that it best for people who could be effected to cover themselves but I am not sure if this would be really enforced.

I thought that for example the company route was illegal if it was deemed that the company was formed soley for the purpose of owning land - however I think that there a plently of Farang/Thai couples who went this route and I have never read anything that anyone as yet have lost their house/land. The rule that this person is refering to is not new. Are there any examples of a Thai spouse losing land under this law yet?