Settlement Visa, Waited 10 Weeks Then Refusal

[true blue]

Well at the end of the day it's the result that counts.

No i don't agree. "At the end of the day" , we should have a system where those entitled to a visa get it ,WITHOUT HASSLE, and those that aren't don't. So many who are entitled have their lives turned upside down for months or years because although entitled to the visa our deliberately unclear and vague rules mean ECO's can interpret them differently causing a lottery as to whether you get the visa or not. A clearer system should be introduced to take away all the uncertainty.

i agree with you whole heartly,it seems to be a real micky mouse set up this visa palarvour,650quid to take your wife home,then it doesnt finish there,more expense to get ilr.

[theoldgit]

Well at the end of the day it's the result that counts.

No i don't agree. "At the end of the day" , we should have a system where those entitled to a visa get it ,WITHOUT HASSLE, and those that aren't don't. So many who are entitled have their lives turned upside down for months or years because although entitled to the visa our deliberately unclear and vague rules mean ECO's can interpret them differently causing a lottery as to whether you get the visa or not. A clearer system should be introduced to take away all the uncertainty.

Of course at the end of the day it's the result counts, I asked the OP why the decision was reversed, did he call the Head of Visa Section or the ECM as I suggested, no he sent some faxes and it would seem that as a result someone saw sense and overturned the original decision, that's what I meant by it's the result that counts.

Of course the system that treats applicants in such a intimidating way, makes people wait for weeks for a decision, a process which has recently been priced out of all proportion, and after putting together a reasonable case, only to have the application refused at the whim of an ECO, is a fundamentally flawed system, and it's this issue that needs to be addressed, though I wouldn't hold your breath.

[Electra]

Essentially, the system was fine but the problem lies with those who are now charged with operating it.

Discretion, intelligence and judgement working on the principle that the Immigration Rules should be tested on the balance of probabilities usually resulted in sound decisions. Unfortunately, a culture, fostered by NuLabour and a raft of mediocre civil servants promoted well beyond their meagre capabilities, has superseded that methodology now supplanted by one in which ticked boxes assume an all embracing significance. The OP's initial refusal is a perfect example illustrating the absurdity of this new regime which is distinguished as much by its pedantry as the dullards who pursue it to the point of imbecility.

The OP's agent's fault was that he underestimated the idiocy of the visa section labouring under this moronic new regime but I suspect he won't make the same mistake again.

[7by7]

Wife just had a call from the Embassy....come and get your Visa on Wednesday. YES!!!!

Really pleased for both of you, how did you achieve the turn about?

Not sure, I have not been able to speak to them directly, but a series of grovelling faxes may have helped.

The initial fault for this lies with the agent for not telling you to supply two essential documents which all the guidelines say are necessary! You paid him for his advice, and that advice was sadly lacking.

If the UK used the 'tick box' system championed by some then the application would have been refused simply because these two documents were missing, and there would have been nothing that you could have done about it.

However, the UK system allows flexibility and discretion and so the ECO asked you for these missing documents.

What I find incomprehensible is that having provided, as asked, copies of these documents the ECO then refused because one of them was not of a suitable standard! The ECO should have asked for the original.

The refusal was perverse and would have been overturned on appeal. It is unfortunate that this does happen, all humans make mistakes from time to time. Luckily the system is aware of this, and such refusals can be overturned without the need for the lengthy appeal process.

No grovelling should have been necessary; simply pointing out their error should, in a case such as this, achieve the desired result.

Congratulations on getting this wrong righted, and all the best for your future life together.

[Electra]

My dear 49, which bit of the Points Based System did you think was anything other than one based on ' ticked boxes ' ?

The culture of that silliness has clearly leached into the rest of the system as evidenced by the poor OP's experience. As you say, human fraility can fault at any time bit the current denizens of the British Embassy, Bangkok and elsewhere seem to be refining stupidity into an art form.

Bless.

[nigelandjan]

Wife just had a call from the Embassy....come and get your Visa on Wednesday. YES!!!!

Good luck to all you guys still waiting and thanks for your help.

cheers

Well done mate !!!!!!!!!!! I know the feeling well you have at the moment,,,even though the wife has been here in the Uk with me 9 months now , that moment of collecting the visa is still fresh in my mind.. Also tell her about the welcome at heathrow she MIGHT get as mine did , after having to TB test at the IOM in BKK for 5 days at 6am every day and getting a clean bill of health , she had to re-test at Heathrow before being allowed entry.

Good luck to you both I hope she arrives safely very soon

[yaketyak]

7by7's post -which is about as near as he will ever get to critisizing the BE - takes a swipe at those like me who advocate a tick box system . Yes its true under that system the visa would have rightly been refused because two documents asked for were not provided. But thats the fault of the agent and the OP not the system. Its not true for him to go on to say there is nothing that the OP could have done about it because there would have been. Immediately apply again this time enclosing the documents and the visa would have to have been issued.

He goes on to say that "the UK system allows ... discretion ...." THATS where the problem lies.!! The discretion given to ECO's to interpret how they CHOOSE to rather than having to accept whats in front of them by way of proof.

One bit of his post i do agree with is the sentence that begins ..."what i find incomprehensible ..." . Quite correct . The ECM should be made to explain in writing why this occurred , but will she be made to ? No of course not !! If i were the OP i would be making that happen.

Why is there not a UK phone number that can be called when absurd refusals like this are made , where the sponcer can call and explain the errors and ask for action to be taken? Wouldn't cost much in the scheme of things. I'll answer my own question ... because this nasty government doesn't want to issue visas to those it sees as largely low grade potential settlers so will not do anything that might help them .. never mind that the relationships might be genuine.

My partner and i have already beaten those trying to keep us apart in the UK , so selfishly i do no more than complain here and warn others. But if i were in the position of those refused visas wrongly i wouldn't be happy with just getting the visa in the end , i would want to kick up a huge fuss about it , lobbying MP's and Government. Most people too easily forgive and forget the trouble and heartache they are caused by our immigration system as soon as they get the visa they want. Sorry if SOME of this post is off topic.

[7by7]

Electra, you appear to be against a 'tick box' system; I am definitely against a 'tick box' system. It seems to me that we are in agreement. Settlement applications are not decided on a point based system, and I hope that they never will be! Although I see your point about the risk of a points based mentality creeping in.

Yaketyyak, You are correct, having been refused because of missing documents under a 'tick box' system the OP could have applied again, and would have had to pay the fee again!

Maybe I'm too dense, but I cannot see how that is fairer and better than the present system where the ECO can request missing documents before making a decision, and unjust refusals, such as this one, can be quickly overturned, at no extra cost to the applicant! Can you explain?

Discretion is used where there is an element of doubt as to whether a particular criterion is met or not. The ECO can use his/her discretion to grant a visa in such cases. They cannot decide on a whim, as you imply, to refuse a visa where all the criteria are obviously met! Taking away this discretion would, I believe, result in many borderline cases being refused when at present they are granted.

Any ECO who used their discretion to refuse when all the criteria are obviously met would not remain an ECO for long! The Independent Monitor and other checks would see to that.

I am no fan of this government, particularly their fees policy, but are you really saying that it is the aim of a Labour government to stop settlement by what you call 'low grade potential settlers'? If so, they are not doing a very good job! A glance at the statistics will show you that in Bangkok alone on average over 90% of settlement applications are successful!

Your last paragraph indicates that you and your partner had some difficulty in obtaining a settlement visa; you have my sympathy. However, it appears that this is causing you to look at the system emotionally rather than rationally. I do not know what your problems were, so cannot comment on them, but even if you were treated badly it does not mean that the whole system is at fault, merely that those dealing with your case were.

[yaketyak]

7 by 7 ,

thanks for your long and detailed reply.

I would gladly take it bit by bit and respond to you but unfortunately , apart from taking this thread off topic for the most part, to do it justice i would have to spend more time than i have (full time worker) writing a very long reply backing up my views , especially on the tick box system which i strongly favour.

I don't think anyone here would thank us if we did this although if there really is a demand for it i would try and condense my reply into a readable chunk . Maybe others could indicate if they wish this ?

So for now we'll have to agree to disagree .

I will say that i think you make some very quaint and naive comments about the integrity of the ECO's. What you say is correct in theorey , not always in practise. I'm sure you believe sincerely in what you write, but i disagree with a lot of it as i think you reflect the theorey of immigration rules as written ,whereas my comments reflect more the reality.

Yak

[7by7]

I, too, have no particular desire to enter a lengthy debate on the merits, or otherwise, of various systems; unless desired by others.

However, I must take issue with

I will say that i think you make some very quaint and naive comments about the integrity of the ECO's. What you say is correct in theorey , not always in practise. I'm sure you believe sincerely in what you write, but i disagree with a lot of it as i think you reflect the theorey of immigration rules as written ,whereas my comments reflect more the reality.

My view is based upon over 9 years of personal applications, for my wife, her children and other members of her family. Not all of the earlier applications were accepted, but with hindsight I can see where we went wrong.

My view is bolstered by the experiences of friends and acquaintances, plus those of internet forum posters too numerous to remember, let alone enumerate!

My view is strengthened by the official figures, which show that in most countries the vast majority of applications are accepted, in Bangkok it's over 90%!

You seem to be basing your view on your own bad experience and using the experience of the very small number of perverse refusals, such as the OP's, to justify that view. No doubt you will correct me if I am wrong in this and provide evidence to back up your claim.

[yaketyak]

7 by 7,

I too am basing my opinions on over 16 years of dealing with the BE in Bangkok , first time was 1993 . In those days one was allowed into the compound and whilst others were looking at magazines or talking i always watched what was happening and listened to the interviews (you could in those days hear quite easily) . Using the spurious excuse of overcrowding the BE stopped us from going in and witnessing how they talk to applicants. Quite disgraceful some of it .. and no doubt its no differant now except they've stopped people like me overhearing it and complaining .

So whilst i accept there are good ECO's (and yes i have dealt with them too ), if you are a reasonable person you must accept there are bad ones too. Like in all large departments all over the world. Law of averages , although i have to say that IMHO the job of ECO (and immigration officers in the UK come to that) seems to attract a certain type of person rather like traffic control attracts those who love to book cars.

I believe a tick box system would stop those bad ones from deliberatly refusing visas based on prejudice or dislike.

Anyway like we said , we don't want to get into what would become a never ending battle on this ... we disagree ... thats it . Fact is we are both right because we both base our opinions on what we have both experienced . There is no definative answer.

[LazarusLong]

Hi guys, 1st post.

We've been waiting 10 weeks for my wife's settlement visa to UK and got a refusal yesterday.

Thought we had everything covered, good history, 4 successful visitor visas and a family visit.

We got married last November officially in Bangrak.

My wife got a call from the consulate 2 weeks ago and asked her to fax (yes fax) a copy of her divorce paper and my payslips. We did this no problem.

Next thing we get the refusal based on the fact that she had failed to provide evidence that her previous marriage had been dissolved, the guy admitted having the fax but said he could not conclusively verify whether she was genuinely free to marry her sponsor (me). He said it would have been reasonable to supply the original copy of the document!! But they asked for a fax, if they had said 2 weeks ago they wanted the original then we would have complied.

Does anybody out there also think this is a crazy decision? After all we have a genuine marriage certificate (which they have the original). Bangrak wouldn't have allowed us to get married if we had not verified our previous marital status.

Are we a victim of quotas?

Gutted

Not quite sure about UK system, but since UK is Schengen too they should basically have the same system than Germany.

I needed a relocation visa for my Thai wife a few months ago since we had lived for some years in Canada after gotten married.

Although we of course submitted docs to German Embassy in BKK the decision was made in Germany at the alien"s department of the City where we were going to live (royal pain in the a*** since I had to fly over in advance, get apartment, get registered etc.). Six weeks, no visa. Eight weeks, no visa and embassy telling me that they haven"t heard from Germany. So eventually I had to fly over alone (since I was due to start my new job) and was just told by alien department that "it'll take as long as it takes".

So, I sent a quite polite letter to both the town mayor (also responsible for alien's dept) and the provincial MP - guess what, visa was granted after 48 hours.

In a nutshell, try to find out if it's the embassy making the decision or some bureaucrat in the UK. If it's UK try to get some higher instance involved - at least that can't hurt.

And again, is you agent qualified ? They really SHOULD have forwared either the original or a certified copy of the certificate by themselves... .

C'u, Laz

[theoldgit]

Not quite sure about UK system, but since UK is Schengen too they should basically have the same system than Germany.

In a nutshell, try to find out if it's the embassy making the decision or some bureaucrat in the UK. If it's UK try to get some higher instance involved - at least that can't hurt.

And again, is you agent qualified ? They really SHOULD have forwared either the original or a certified copy of the certificate by

themselves... .

Just for clarification the UK is not part of Schengen but is stand alone with regard to visas.

The decisions are made by a locally bases Entry Clearance Officer and the cases are reviewed locally by a manager, policy is dealt with centrally as are appeals.

Unfortunately "agents" do not need to be qualified to offer advice in Thailand that why there are so many lurking around Regent House ushering people into their offices and so many stories about people getting bad advice and being given promises that are unachievable. I believe that there is only one visa agent in Thailand who has registered with OISC in the UK

[pingit]

Hi,

just new to this forum. I have been in Thailand since March with my spouse and our 1 year old son. We met in the UK while my spouse was doing her masters degree around 5 years ago. After her studies and working for a University in Thailand for a couple years, she received a 2 years visiting visa, and we travelled always together back and forward from UK to Thailand. Our son was actually born in Thailand and now has dual citizenship , Thai and UK.

We travelled back to Thailand in March 09 to apply for her settlement visa. We applied on 19th March, and on the 19th June we got the reply that it was refused ! There was NO interview or ANY request for further documents, however the reason the ECO put down was that we hadn't adequately shown accommodation and maintenance. I have my own restaurant for the last 7 years, so they had my accounts, and also the lease for our house is in both our names, and also the council tax is in both our names. We have been basically living in the UK for the last 2 years together as she had that 2 years visitors visa.

My point is that if the ECO had some issues he might have requested further documents or an interview? Now for the first time in over 2 years I have had to return alone and leave my fiance and son in Chiang Mai ! Surely rather than split a family up the ECO should have simply made a phone call to us in Chiang Mai. I was on the phone to them alot while we all waited there for 3 months on this terrible decision!

Any thoughts??? advice anyone might have would be really appreciated... thanks

[7by7]

We have been basically living in the UK for the last 2 years together as she had that 2 years visitors visa.

A 2 year visit visa does not allow the holder to live in the UK for 2 years! The maximum stay on any visit is 6 months and the holder should normally not spend more than a total of 6 months out of any 12 in the UK. If she has been using her visit visa to live in the UK then she has been in breach of the immigration rules and in the UK illegally. In which case that alone would be all the grounds for refusal they'd need!

My point is that if the ECO had some issues he might have requested further documents or an interview?

The burden of proof lies with the applicant. If the applicant fails to provide adequate documentation then the ECO is not obliged to chase after it, especially at a busy time such as now when they are working to clear a large backlog of applications.

An appeal form would have been included with the refusal notice. If you feel the refusal was unjustified then you should complete and return this form within 21 (i think, maybe 30?) days of the refusal. You could also contact the embassy and ask that the refusal be reviewed, as the OP successfully did.

Any further advice is impossible without knowing what the refusal notice said, exactly, and what evidence you did provide with the application.

Edit:

Just seen that you have made a duplicate post in another thread. It will make it easier for everyone, and probably elicit you more responses, if you confined yourself to one thread on this subject. Indeed, it would probably be better, should you wish to seek any further advice, to start a completely new thread.

Edited June 25, 2009 by 7by7

[rushdentillidie]

My wife and I are in the same situation, relative small problem and documents been over looked caused a rejection.

But seem to be having less luck getting any reply form the embassy. Our visa agent has sent them a fax requesting a review, although this was over 2 weeks ago. My wife and i have tried to calling the embassy but just keep getting stoned walled, and emails just seem to get lost.

If anybody has a list of contacts or know the best people to speak to it would be a great help. I have seen suggestions about speaking to the local MP but not really sure what if any impact this would have.

But its good to read some good news and gives a small reason to hold out hope. But the customer service of the embassy leaves a lot to be desired, I would like to see the feedback if the embassy was privet sector.

Congrats to the OP

Regards

[7by7]

Not sure why you felt it necessary to resurrect a 11 month old thread to post the above.

As you started a topic on your wife's refusal, it would save confusion and help you receive helpful replies if you posted your questions there.

I'm closing this topic.