Is Monkhood Easier To Contemplate If You Have No Possesions?

[rockyysdt]

I'm learning that our ego based life, as we experience it, is impermanent & conditioned.

Our ego is bound by many things which in reality are meaningless when measured against the permanent & unconditioned state of enlightentment.

Having said that, ego based as we find ourselves, isn't it far easier for a poor person, with no possessions and nothing to look forward to but a wretched existence, to embrace monkhood, than it is for a wealthy farang who owns property, enjoys a relatively high income and yields power?

Are many westerners who take to monkhood either without possessions or are aged and close to their impending mortality.

My mother who doesn't understand Buddhism thinks that if I embrace it fully, I'm becoming a bum.

She believes home ownership, assets & assuring ones future income as very important.

Edited June 3, 2009 by rockyysdt

[agent69]

I would like to ask if you believe that what you earn and possess are actually yours.

In Buddhism we always say that not of the belongings are not ours, not even our own flesh and blood. Can you have that kind of mind set while you live your life with all the possession? Being a monk would facilitate getting into that mind set. Living in such boundary you have to be rid of all possesion. It just makes things easier. But definitely does not mean that you can't practice while you are living your everyday life.

[phetaroi]

I'm learning that our ego based life, as we experience it, is impermanent & conditioned.

Our ego is bound by many things which in reality are meaningless when measured against the permanent & unconditioned state of enlightentment.

Having said that, ego based as we find ourselves, isn't it far easier for a poor person, with no possessions and nothing to look forward to but a wretched existence, to embrace monkhood, than it is for a wealthy farang who owns property, enjoys a relatively high income and yields power?

Are many westerners who take to monkhood either without possessions or are aged and close to their impending mortality.

My mother who doesn't understand Buddhism thinks that if I embrace it fully, I'm becoming a bum.

She believes home ownership, assets & assuring ones future income as very important.

Well, I think that there is more than one way to look at this.

I have often thought that the reported decrease in the number of monks in Thailand may very well be related to this. What prospective monk does not think, "Why should I give up most of what this world has to offer to live a life of relative poverty?" Of course, you could say that the answer is -- enlightenment, nibanna, etc. But I am reminded of decisions most of us Americans may have made early in our work life. We didn't think much of saving for retirement, for example...it was too far down the road. This is the impending mortality aspect you mention.

In terms of your preliminary question, could it be easier for a westerner who knows he can always fall back on his possessions to temporarily enter the monkhood?

[jumnien]

If you are farang, you better possess a passport and a visa!

[rockyysdt]

I would like to ask if you believe that what you earn and possess are actually yours.

In Buddhism we always say that not of the belongings are not ours, not even our own flesh and blood. Can you have that kind of mind set while you live your life with all the possession? Being a monk would facilitate getting into that mind set. Living in such boundary you have to be rid of all possesion.

Agreed.

What you quote is the teaching.

What I suggest is the nexus between our ego bound life & enlightenment.

Until the latter occurs we are bound by our ego.

Most proceed down their path whilst remaining attached to their possessions.

Wouldn't more embrace monkhood (full time devotion to the path) if they were serious about the teaching?

I suspect that the more possessions one has (includes status etc) the less likely one is to embrace monkhood.

Don't get me wrong. I'm behind the teaching, but make this observation.

Edited June 4, 2009 by rockyysdt

[agent69]

What I am trying to say is that you do not need to be a monk to be able to reach the point you need to be, be it temptaion bound life or enlightenment. Materials of possession is yours when you believe they are yours. When you realise that none of what surrounding you is yours, you will find that being rid of it and become a monk is trivial.

Each person has different reason that hold them back. Yours may be your mother since you mentioned of her. Mine would be my wife. Not saying that it is anyone's fault, but trying to imply that it was due to the previous karma.

Remember that the Buddha, when he was a prince, left his own family. Can we or will we take that measure in search of our own enlightenment?

[rockyysdt]

Can we or will we take that measure in search of our own enlightenment?

Precisely.

I'll go out on a limb and say most on this Buddhist forum believe in the teaching (dhamma).

From the dhamma we have learned that our life is a charade compared to what really is, and yet we don't embrace it.

I'd like to qualify by saying that to me monkhood is a vehicle for full time pursuit of ones path.

If such work can be achieved without ordination then the endeavour is the same.

Do you think that the excuses running through our minds are due to negative khamma accumulated from our past?

[agent69]

I'd like to qualify by saying that to me monkhood is a vehicle for full time pursuit of ones path.

Really depends on their motives. For a Thai, the reason can simply be the tradition. For you guys (farangs) at least you have the interest. To become a monk, you would probably have the devotion.

Do you think that the excuses running through our minds are due to negative khamma accumulated from our past?

Possibly. It would be part of the problem. But I believe it repends on wisdom through meditation. Buddha used to compare people to water lilies in different stages. Some will have the chance to lift itself above the water and blooms. The ignorant ones will never.

[jamesc2000]

I could be wrong but i don't think we even have free will.

We are conditioned to put ourself on the path of enlightenment or

we are not.

If you are conditioned to put yourself on the path even if you wanted to

deviate you find you cannot and vice versa.

On the path or off the path again no big deal as you are not yours.

Mind, body, soul, not you, not yours.

So feeling smug about being on the path or despondent about not being

on the path is vanity and ignorance.

Eventhough my thinking is not mine, I wouldn't want to waste it

on vanity or ignorance but even if I did, nothing to waste really.

Every thing is just an illusion, which bit of the illusion do you

want to believe in?

If you are conditioned to monkhood, not even possessions will stop you,

if you are not, even poverty will not drive to monkhood.

Anyone is free to challenge my thots here, I am not attached to these thots

and I won't even defend it as these thots are not mine and I don't even

believe I exist so not mine to defend.

Edited June 9, 2009 by jamesc2000

[rockyysdt]

I could be wrong but i don't think we even have free will.

We are conditioned to put ourself on the path of enlightenment or

we are not.

Your words are very interesting.

If you don't have free will then your illustrations would be correct.

I thought mankind does have free will.

I read somwhere that when we love, and are charitable & benevolent our acts are more powerful than in the realm of angels as angels don't have free will.

I thought we have free will but our ability to make choices can be colored by our genetics, conditioning, influence from others & environment.

What is your source for this concept?

When questioning some Thais who bemoan their status or life, the reply is that this is their fate.

The unfortunate thing about fatalism is that people will take the easy options and may lack responsibility.

When one says "we live in illusion in a conditioned & impermanent state", doesn't this mean that our life isn't really an illusion, but when compared with the "unconditioned permanent state", there is no comparision?

I always chuckle to myself about the theory of illusion, as when I explained it to a colleague, they replied by saying that a quick punch in the head would confirm or dispel it.

Edited June 10, 2009 by rockyysdt

[Brucenkhamen]

I could be wrong but i don't think we even have free will.

We are conditioned to put ourself on the path of enlightenment or

we are not.

If you are conditioned to put yourself on the path even if you wanted to

deviate you find you cannot and vice versa.

On the path or off the path again no big deal as you are not yours.

Mind, body, soul, not you, not yours.

So feeling smug about being on the path or despondent about not being

on the path is vanity and ignorance.

Eventhough my thinking is not mine, I wouldn't want to waste it

on vanity or ignorance but even if I did, nothing to waste really.

Every thing is just an illusion, which bit of the illusion do you

want to believe in?

If you are conditioned to monkhood, not even possessions will stop you,

if you are not, even poverty will not drive to monkhood.

Anyone is free to challenge my thots here, I am not attached to these thots

and I won't even defend it as these thots are not mine and I don't even

believe I exist so not mine to defend.

Of course we have free will, I'm not aware of any Buddhist teaching that suggests we don't have free will. Sounds like a corruption of dhamma to me, muchlike the notion of kamma as being fate.

Our kamma determines what cards we are dealt, sure, but it's our free will that gets to choose to play those cards in such a way as to purify the mind and create a better future, or to play those cards in such a way as to end up with more rounds of suffering.

[phetaroi]

Of course we have free will, I'm not aware of any Buddhist teaching that suggests we don't have free will. Sounds like a corruption of dhamma to me, muchlike the notion of kamma as being fate.

Our kamma determines what cards we are dealt, sure, but it's our free will that gets to choose to play those cards in such a way as to purify the mind and create a better future, or to play those cards in such a way as to end up with more rounds of suffering.

In fact, I don't think karma makes much sense without free will. And I agree that karma and fate are not the same.

That is not to say that there might not be some aspect of fate in life. For example, could it be fate to be born in a Buddhist country in the next life?

[BigSnake]

My thought is yes, no worrying about who is driving your car running your business, etc, even better if there is no wife or friend(s) in the picture. Now having said that the Wat thatyou choose is Very very important, because some Wat are very easy going and do not stick to the basic rules, i.e., allow TV, Video games, even card games to name a few, one Wat near me, I saw 10 year old Monk cleaning the outside area puffing away on his cigarette

[khaowong1]

My thought is yes, no worrying about who is driving your car running your business, etc, even better if there is no wife or friend(s) in the picture. Now having said that the Wat thatyou choose is Very very important, because some Wat are very easy going and do not stick to the basic rules, i.e., allow TV, Video games, even card games to name a few, one Wat near me, I saw 10 year old Monk cleaning the outside area puffing away on his cigarette

I think you mean a monk who has been ordained for 10 years, as there is no such thing as a 10 year old monk... and yes, some temples are much more easy going than other temples, tv, video movies, etc. But as one old monk pointed out to me, look at your own imperfections, not at the imperfections of others... I believe that if you should ordain with the right attitude, that the "slackness" of some monks at the temple will not distract you from the path... there are some very strict Wats where a farang hasn't a prayer, so to speak, of fitting in..

[khaowong1]

The Lord Buddha had more possesions than we could even begin to think about, and he gave them all up... I think it's up to the individual..it's not about possesions, it's about what you believe it would take to learn the truth according to the Lord Buddha's teaching... granted, there are a lot of monks in Thailand who come from dirt poor families, but their are also some who come from very rich families, and I can't tell the difference except in talking to them, then the ones who come from a rich family with a better education are generally more refined in their speech and actions.. I'm not trying to start a discussion on rich vs poor here, just my observations.

[jamesc2000]

Of course we have free will, I'm not aware of any Buddhist teaching that suggests we don't have free will. Sounds like a corruption of dhamma to me, muchlike the notion of kamma as being fate.

Our kamma determines what cards we are dealt, sure, but it's our free will that gets to choose to play those cards in such a way as to purify the mind and create a better future, or to play those cards in such a way as to end up with more rounds of suffering.

Is there any Buddhist teaching that teaches we have free will?

A pure mind and a better future!

I am not even sure I have a mind and is purifying it the best thing to do?

A better future? In this life or in the next life? Better as in more peace? More happiness? More comfort? A long life?

What is suffering? More work? Less money? No friends? Not being liked and respected? Being hungry? Must always be right?

Having bills to pay? No football? No Disco? No girls or movies?

I havn't been purifying my mind or trying to create a better future so I am really curious what

kind of more rounds of suffering I can expect to get according to Buddhist teachings!

[camerata]

Is there any Buddhist teaching that teaches we have free will?

I think any discussion of "free will" is meaningless without defining it very specifically. Free of what, exactly? So in the absolute sense we can say that no decision we make is totally free of some kind of influence. But in the Buddhist sense I think free will means that our future is not totally determined by past kamma - we are free to make decisions right now that will bear the appropriate fruit in the future.

"As most people go through life they are influenced by their families, societies and other features of their environments to the degree that they become products of their environments. As a result, the development of their personalities is largely a matter of chance. The purpose of Buddhism is to guide and direct the development of one's personality so that such development is no longer a matter of chance."

[Brucenkhamen]

Is there any Buddhist teaching that teaches we have free will?

You don't need a Buddhist teaching to tell you that you have free will, you can observe it every day, today for example I chose Roti Chanai for lunch, nobody forced me to have it. Just like you don't need a Buddhist teaching to tell you the sky is blue.

If you know of a teaching that says we don't have free will please share it.

[jamesc2000]

Is there any Buddhist teaching that teaches we have free will?

You don't need a Buddhist teaching to tell you that you have free will, you can observe it every day, today for example I chose Roti Chanai for lunch, nobody forced me to have it. Just like you don't need a Buddhist teaching to tell you the sky is blue.

If you know of a teaching that says we don't have free will please share it.

http://www.bswa.org/modules/mydownloads/vi...d=4&lid=359

I heard the talk above and if I mis-interpreted the concept of free will and Buddhism please let me know.

Not only do I not think we have free will, I don't even think we exist!

http://www.bswa.org/modules/mydownloads/vi...d=4&lid=391

I can only accept the concept of free will if it is linked with the concept that I do not exist.

I think this is anatta. If I am wrong, please feel free to post.

http://www.bswa.org/modules/mydownloads/vi...d=4&lid=519

Edited June 12, 2009 by jamesc2000

[Brucenkhamen]

http://www.bswa.org/modules/mydownloads/vi...d=4&lid=359

I heard the talk above and if I mis-interpreted the concept of free will and Buddhism please let me know.

Not only do I not think we have free will, I don't even think we exist!

http://www.bswa.org/modules/mydownloads/vi...d=4&lid=391

I can only accept the concept of free will if it is linked with the concept that I do not exist.

I think this is anatta. If I am wrong, please feel free to post.

http://www.bswa.org/modules/mydownloads/vi...d=4&lid=519

The first link didn't work, the second I've downloaded but it will be a few days before I can listen to it.

The teaching of anatta, as I understand it, is that all conditioned things are not self. This does not mean we don't exist, it does not mean that we don't have free will, it just means that free will is also not self.

Here's a couple of articles from Thanissaro which might help;

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors...ro/notself.html

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors...o/notself2.html

[jamesc2000]

I am very sorry the link didn't work, hope this one does.

http://www.bswa.org/modules/mydownloads/vi...d=4&lid=359

Just like life, of the 3 links this is main one and its the one that didn't work!

[jamesc2000]

Anyway the good thing about trying to find the article above, I actually found one call Free Will.

http://www.bswa.org/modules/mydownloads/vi...d=4&lid=245

By the way all these articles contain thoughts about being a monk and possessions.

Edited June 13, 2009 by jamesc2000

[camerata]

I heard the talk above and if I mis-interpreted the concept of free will and Buddhism please let me know.

Not only do I not think we have free will, I don't even think we exist!

We've already had this exact discussion with you here but you just keep referring us to Ajahn Brahm's mp3 talks. Since you have this fixed view that you don't exist, and a lot of people will disagree with you, you might want to transcribe the parts of the talks that prove your point. It would be more considerate than expecting others to listen to hours of talks.

And don't forget that Aj Brahm is a bit of a maverick with his own system of meditation in which there is no volition in jhana. It's not the traditional view, AFAIK.

[jamesc2000]

We've already had this exact discussion with you here but you just keep referring us to Ajahn Brahm's mp3 talks. Since you have this fixed view that you don't exist, and a lot of people will disagree with you, you might want to transcribe the parts of the talks that prove your point. It would be more considerate than expecting others to listen to hours of talks.

And don't forget that Aj Brahm is a bit of a maverick with his own system of meditation in which there is no volition in jhana. It's not the traditional view, AFAIK.

I would like to do the considerate thing and transcribe the talks. However people will just say I took things out of context.

And I don't know enough about Buddhism to transcribe correctly and I wouldn't want to put anyone on the incorrect path.

And what does Aj Brahm is a bit of a maverick mean? He is not teaching Buddhism correctly?

And his system has no volition in jhana? Is this dangerous as it leads people away from the truth?

Its really ok if people don't listen to any of the links. I didn't post the links to get anyone to listen to it.

I posted it because someone asked - What is your source for this concept?

So I am very sorry if people are upset if I posted links on Buddhism but it was to answer to a poster.

If people don't like to listen Buddhism talks, please don't listen to it.

I forgot to add - my view on this matter is not fixed, it is open to change with new information.

I don't know anything about Buddhism but I reckon holding a fixed idea without the flexibility

to change it will lead to a lot of suffering and I don't intend to take that path.

Camerata - when I first came here, I have never heard of Aj Brahm! It was you that posted his

links and asked me to listen to him to lean about Buddhism.

And now you tell me he is a maverick and and his system has no volition in jhana!

Its a bit late now! As I have been listening to him and I have been conditioned to

accept what he has been saying!

Edited June 13, 2009 by jamesc2000

[Brucenkhamen]

Anyway the good thing about trying to find the article above, I actually found one call Free Will.

http://www.bswa.org/modules/mydownloads/vi...d=4&lid=245

By the way all these articles contain thoughts about being a monk and possessions.

I had a listen to the Free Will talk and it isn't really on the topic of free will at all but rather freedom from will as Ajahn Brahm points out enjoying the irony.

It begins by explaining that how exersizing the will to try and control things doesn't lead to freedom, it's the letting go of the will that leads to freedom.

It goes on to explain that a lot of what we think of as being something we willed is actually influenced by advertising, conditioning and influences of others and being aware of that and letting go of that leads to freedom.

Nothing about the non existence of free will.

I'll listen to the other one sometime to see if there is a smoking gun.

[Jungian]

Sorry in advance this post is going to be long but I do have a point.

When I became a monk many years ago getting rid of all the things I had was the hardest thing to do but I was young and didn't understand attachment. I did keep my car and some rather expensive large items stored at my parents house so the grasping, desire and attachment shouldn't have been as bad as it was. After being a monk for 10 years I returned to my to my country finished school and got a job. Of course in the normal world acquiring attachments along the way and one day I got married well.... that didn't work out.

My ex-wife got some big gun attorneys because she wanted everything she could possibly get. I guess I should mention that we were married less than 2 years and both of us had a car that was purchased prior to the marriage (hers was financed and mine was paid cash free and clear) but she even wanted my car. I didn't hire a lawyer and when I had to go to court I explained to the judge that my 'wife' and her lawyers were 'hungry ghosts' and all they knew how to do was be greedy, crave, desire and consume. During the course of that brief marriage we acquired nothing because my ex-wife spent the money faster than we could make it. I told the judge she had a new somebody to buy her what she craved and she could have everything I had which really amounted to my car and clothes she spent all the money and ran her personal credit cards up to buy personal things, The judge told her to produce credit card receipts proving she bought one thing that mutually benefited the household for example a loaf of bread from the supermarket. Well, she couldn't produce anything but designer clothing receipts, but of course because I did all of the shopping (cash). In the end she got nothing stuck with all of the bills (because they were hers) plus her lawyer bills that were in excess of $25,000 just to try to get my $5,000 car.

Some years latter after living a life of non attachment once again I met my new wife (still my wife) she is Thai and a Zen Buddhist as am I. We built a life in the USA for some years and acquired all the usual stuff, we had a house 3 cars, a few TV's, computers, etc., etc., etc. At the end of my contract where I worked they decided they didn't need my services any more, my new fundamental religious supervisor decided that even though I had been there for 7 years a Buddhist wasn't needed on staff (I was a chaplain). But that was fine, I was tired of it and my wife and I decided to move to Thailand where Buddhists on staff was a common thing. We did the ultimate test of attachment. We gave everything away except our savings and our house (which was paid off) We gave away our 2 BMW's and Chevy Blazer to people who needed cars, we gave away all of our furnishings and electronics to charity and all of our winter clothing. We arrived in Thailand with 6 suitcases (90% clothing) and a bank account and started over and started a family.

This time it was easy to move on, it didn't matter how big the item was there was no anxiety, no craving, no attachment or desire we were filled with satisfaction to see people have the things they needed and never looked back. I think giving up the craving comes with age and training as well as practice, understanding that nothing is permanent and craving can never be satisfied, once one desire is fulfilled another arises and it becomes a vicious cycle. So, keep this in mind all of your days things are just 'stuff' and can be obtained as well as lost.

[camerata]

In the end she got nothing stuck with all of the bills (because they were hers) plus her lawyer bills that were in excess of $25,000 just to try to get my $5,000 car.

Great story!

[McLovin]

I'm learning that our ego based life, as we experience it, is impermanent & conditioned.

Our ego is bound by many things which in reality are meaningless when measured against the permanent & unconditioned state of enlightentment.

Having said that, ego based as we find ourselves, isn't it far easier for a poor person, with no possessions and nothing to look forward to but a wretched existence, to embrace monkhood, than it is for a wealthy farang who owns property, enjoys a relatively high income and yields power?

Are many westerners who take to monkhood either without possessions or are aged and close to their impending mortality.

My mother who doesn't understand Buddhism thinks that if I embrace it fully, I'm becoming a bum.

She believes home ownership, assets & assuring ones future income as very important.

You should ask all the Monks that I see daily around Wat Computer Plaza.

[camerata]

I would like to do the considerate thing and transcribe the talks. However people will just say I took things out of context.

And I don't know enough about Buddhism to transcribe correctly and I wouldn't want to put anyone on the incorrect path.

Don't worry, there isn't much chance of that. There's a famous quote by Einstein, "If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself," and IMO at some point we all have to be able to explain our views with reference to the Buddha's teachings or admit we don't understand them ourselves. Maybe it's time to look a bit deeper and examine the foundations of your beliefs. Then there's less chance of misinterpreting contemporary teachings.

And what does Aj Brahm is a bit of a maverick mean? He is not teaching Buddhism correctly?

And his system has no volition in jhana? Is this dangerous as it leads people away from the truth?

Have you read either of his books? Ajahn Brahm is an inspiring speaker (I've been to two of his talks and one retreat) and he's great at showing how Dhamma can be applied to our everyday lives. But he holds some unorthodox (for Theravada Buddhism) views, sometimes backed up by his own interpretation of the scriptures (eg. the idea that abortion is OK before a foetus had developed a nervous system because "it can't suffer") and sometimes backed up by obscure, one-off science reports (eg. the story of the boy whose brain was mush but he could function like a normal person, proving that "the mind is not dependent on the brain"). And in his talk on Buddhism and Science I recall him saying, "You should see our monks levitating!"

His book on meditation contains some great stuff,but it does tend to present things in such a way as to support his own method of meditation. In the Foreword, Jack Kornfield writes: "While I acknowledge with pleasure the fruit of Ajahn Brahm's rich experience as a guide for meditators, Ajahn Brahm presents this way of developing jhana and insight as the real true way the Buddha taught and therefore the best way."

On page 199 he again uses some old research project (he used to be a scientist) to make the bizarre assertion that "what we observe as the decision to act, what we take to be our own free will, occurs only after the process of action has begun." In other words, action comes first, and then the will to act later! Only a paragraph later, he correctly and more clearly states that "it is not a self that generates the will..."

Frankly, his few mentions of "free will" (which he never defines) are confusing but he also states the standard view that will isn't generated by a "self."

So I am very sorry if people are upset if I posted links on Buddhism but it was to answer to a poster.

If people don't like to listen Buddhism talks, please don't listen to it.

No one is upset. We're just waiting for you to put forward your own coherent explanation for "I don't exist" with reference to the scriptures. Start by defining "I" and defining "exist."

Camerata - when I first came here, I have never heard of Aj Brahm! It was you that posted his

links and asked me to listen to him to lean about Buddhism.

And now you tell me he is a maverick and and his system has no volition in jhana!

Its a bit late now! As I have been listening to him and I have been conditioned to

accept what he has been saying!

Then it's time for you to stop being a wide-eyed disciple of Ajahn Brahm and see what others are saying about Buddhism. Trust me, you do exist, and you are free (in the conventional sense) to make decisions that will be beneficial for your future.

[rockyysdt]

My ex-wife got some big gun attorneys because she wanted everything she could possibly get. I guess I should mention that we were married less than 2 years and both of us had a car that was purchased prior to the marriage (hers was financed and mine was paid cash free and clear) but she even wanted my car. I didn't hire a lawyer and when I had to go to court I explained to the judge that my 'wife' and her lawyers were 'hungry ghosts' and all they knew how to do was be greedy, crave, desire and consume.

Some years latter after living a life of non attachment once again I met my new wife (still my wife) she is Thai and a Zen Buddhist as am I.

I was tired of it and my wife and I decided to move to Thailand where Buddhists on staff was a common thing. We did the ultimate test of attachment. We gave everything away except our savings and our house (which was paid off) We gave away our 2 BMW's and Chevy Blazer to people who needed cars, we gave away all of our furnishings and electronics to charity and all of our winter clothing. We arrived in Thailand with 6 suitcases (90% clothing) and a bank account and started over and started a family.

Thanks for sharing Jungian.

Your years of experience as a monk must have helped enormously with issues of attachment.

It seems veangeful American women commonly take their ex husbands to the cleaners.

Why is this?

Being Buddhist & a Zen practioner, you chose your new wife well.

I've heard many Western/Thai relationships end in similar circumstances.

It appears your good fortune was to follow the path of monkhood during a young age.

Youth often brings with it experimentation & risk taking before conservatism and accumulation of wealth has a chance to set in.