Any Advice For Child Settlement?

[Castor83]

Hi all, I really need some help/guidance/advice/pointin in the right direction...

me and my fiance applied for settlement visa on 29th april, heard nothing back yet.

We have a 2 months old boy who will be coming back with my missus, and she has a 9 year old girl who was goin to stay with my fiancee's mother for a couple of months while we got married over here. Then we would go back to thailand for honeymoon, put in her settlement application and she would fly over when it was granted. This was all mainly because money was a bit tight payin hospital costs for my son's birth etc, so didn't have the cash to put an application in for both of them..

However due to some family problems the girl has decided she would much rather come straight to england with her mum. And to be honest I cant blame her at all. So we now need to apply for a settlement visa for the girl.

And frankly im super confused. My fiancee's visa hasnt been granted yet so alot of our important paperwork which we would need to submit with her girl's application is godknowswhere. So I guess we can't submit it until we get it all back, right?

And if we do that, it will involve my fiancee staying in thailand for however long the girl's visa takes. Will this cause a problem with my fiancee?? From my understanding we have 6 months to marry and apply for FLR from when the visa is stamped, rather than when she comes to UK, is that correct?

Also as a final query, because of the cost of this all there is no way I will be able to fly out there to help my girlfriend submit the application (whenever we decide to do it) so I was thinking of using an agent as my missus doesn;t read or write english too well. But I've read alot that most agents in Thailand are pretty much useless and should be avoided... Does anyone know of some trustworthy ones? and rough costs?

Thanks for your time...

[ThaiVisaExpress]

We have an office in Thailand and the UK and are regulated by the OISC we also sponsor this forum. We have staff that can escort the child with a guardian to submit the application etc and can take care of any concerns you may have in Thailand.

As for your case it maybe better to wait until you marry and have FLR they will then issue the daughter a 2 year visa to match her mothers. Or you may go down route of applying for the child to enter the UK now as a dependant child. You will need to demonstrate that she has sole responsibility of the child. I'm in Bangkok now en route to the UK feel free to contact myself should you require any professional help.

[Castor83]

We have an office in Thailand and the UK and are regulated by the OISC we also sponsor this forum. We have staff that can escort the child with a guardian to submit the application etc and can take care of any concerns you may have in Thailand.

As for your case it maybe better to wait until you marry and have FLR they will then issue the daughter a 2 year visa to match her mothers. (This would still be £585 right? or is it cheaper this way?) Or you may go down route of applying for the child to enter the UK now as a dependant child. You will need to demonstrate that she has sole responsibility of the child. I'm in Bangkok now en route to the UK feel free to contact myself should you require any professional help.

Hi, thanks TVE

Yeah I think we will have to do whatever is the sooner option rather than later. The little girl's really not happy about staying on her own. Especially with her new baby brother to play with...

We can't show she has sole responsibility yet, next week my girlfriend is gonna get the certificate she says. As far as I understand it her father is her legal guardian at the moment. I am gonna ring her later this evening so I will find out.

I feel I may require some professional help with this one, I'll discuss that with my girlfriend too. Would you actually fill in the online application with my girlfriend? Because I think that will be the difficult part for us. I'll will fedex any documents of mine necessary to her, but think most of what we need is already in with her application...

[sumrit]

We have an office in Thailand and the UK and are regulated by the OISC we also sponsor this forum. We have staff that can escort the child with a guardian to submit the application etc and can take care of any concerns you may have in Thailand.

As for your case it maybe better to wait until you marry and have FLR they will then issue the daughter a 2 year visa to match her mothers. (This would still be £585 right? or is it cheaper this way?) Or you may go down route of applying for the child to enter the UK now as a dependant child. You will need to demonstrate that she has sole responsibility of the child. I'm in Bangkok now en route to the UK feel free to contact myself should you require any professional help.

Hi, thanks TVE

Yeah I think we will have to do whatever is the sooner option rather than later. The little girl's really not happy about staying on her own. Especially with her new baby brother to play with...

We can't show she has sole responsibility yet, next week my girlfriend is gonna get the certificate she says. As far as I understand it her father is her legal guardian at the moment. I am gonna ring her later this evening so I will find out.

I feel I may require some professional help with this one, I'll discuss that with my girlfriend too. Would you actually fill in the online application with my girlfriend? Because I think that will be the difficult part for us. I'll will fedex any documents of mine necessary to her, but think most of what we need is already in with her application...

If your g/f was legally married (Amphur registration) to her daughters father it will say on the divorce papers who has legal custody. If it's the father she will have to get that changed first, before she can get the sole custody and responsibility certificate from the Amphur. When she does get the certificate from the Amphur make sure she gets two copies. She will need one for her daughters passport, and the passport office will keep that copy for their records. The British Embassy will also need to see an original, a photocopy is not acceptable.

[ThaiVisaExpress]

Lets not get confused here sole responsibility is not sole custody, that's just a piece of paper from the Amphur totally different. You must demonstrate to the ECO you have sole responsibility of the child etc.

[sumrit]

Lets not get confused here sole responsibility is not sole custody, that's just a piece of paper from the Amphur totally different. You must demonstrate to the ECO you have sole responsibility of the child etc.

Of course sole resposibility is not the same as sole custody.

When my wife got the first certificate from the Amphur in Pak Thong Chai about three years ago (for her daughters passport) both she and her witnesses had to make a statement not only on who had custody of her daughter but also who was responsible for the day to day care of her daughter, both financially and her upbringing/decision making. My wife used that certificate for her daughters passport and when we applied for their visas about three months ago the VFS centre told her that the photo copy we'd supplied was not acceptable and we would have to get another original. By this time they were both registered at our house in Chonburi so we had to go the the local Amphur there. Again my wife, her mother and sister had to declare not only who had custody but who was responsible for day to day care and upbringing, this time since birth (my stepdaughter is now eleven). And everything declared from all three was included in the certificate/letter that was stamped, signed and given to her by the Amphur. (and, by the way, another mother was also at the Amphur at the same time doing the same thing because the British Embassy had requested the certificate.)

Now you might call it 'just a piece of paper from the Amphur' but, with all the information contained within it, in my eyes it's a certified statement of both custody AND responsilibity. The Thai authorities deem it important enough that (unless both parents are together and both sign the application form) they won't issue a passport without this document and the British Embassy deem it important enough that not only should it form part of the proof of custody and responsibility but it must be an original document.

Of course the ECO would like to see as much proof as possible concerning sole responsiblity but be honest, if you have children and they live with you, how much documentary PROOF could you show that you have both custody AND day to day responsibility for them? At least this is a statement of proof certified by the Thai authorities.

But let's not split hairs, my post was intended to just remind the OP that the document was required, in original form, by both the passport office AND the British Embassy so in case they hadn't realized it they would need two copies from the Amphur. And as the OP had mentioned his g/f was going to go to the Amphur I was pointing out that, if the Father had legal custody, this would have to be changed first before the Amphur would issue the certificate.

[ThaiVisaExpress]

If she is living with her Father then you may find it difficult to prove you have sole responsibility of the child is this the case ?

These factors come into consideration,

The period the mother has been separated from the child.

Who has day to day care of the child since the sponsor entered the UK.

Plus various other factors financial schooling etc.

[Castor83]

Hey all, thanks for the replies... You've given me alot to think about.

The situation is, The girl lives in my girlfriend's house with my girlfriend and my girlfriend's mother and sister.

My girlfriend came to UK when the girl was 3 or 4, for 5 years. The girl lived with my girlfriend's mother and sister taking care of her until september last year when my girlfriend went back to thailand. So her father had (i guess its the) sole custody. He didnt actually look after her at all though, because he's - and I quote - "sick". No idea what's actually wrong with him. Sick seems to be the term for all illnesses according to my girlfriend.

Now my girlfriend is going to go and get some sort of certificate changed from his name to her name. Again, I'm not sure what certificate, but its 12,000b if I remember correctly. She says its to show she "look after" her. She has letters from the school in her name. And some stuff in her sisters name. So could her sister write a letter to go in with the application? Other than that I'm really not too sure what proof she has. Her ex husband is apparently quite happy to do whatever needs to be done.

The language barrier really pops up when we discuss offical documents and stuff over the phone. Plus I have no real idea how things are done in Thailand.

On a side note, do I need to show I've taken steps to getting her into a school over here?

[sumrit]

Hey all, thanks for the replies... You've given me alot to think about.

The situation is, The girl lives in my girlfriend's house with my girlfriend and my girlfriend's mother and sister.

My girlfriend came to UK when the girl was 3 or 4, for 5 years. The girl lived with my girlfriend's mother and sister taking care of her until september last year when my girlfriend went back to thailand. So her father had (i guess its the) sole custody. He didnt actually look after her at all though, because he's - and I quote - "sick". No idea what's actually wrong with him. Sick seems to be the term for all illnesses according to my girlfriend.

Now my girlfriend is going to go and get some sort of certificate changed from his name to her name. Again, I'm not sure what certificate, but its 12,000b if I remember correctly. She says its to show she "look after" her. She has letters from the school in her name. And some stuff in her sisters name. So could her sister write a letter to go in with the application? Other than that I'm really not too sure what proof she has. Her ex husband is apparently quite happy to do whatever needs to be done.

The language barrier really pops up when we discuss offical documents and stuff over the phone. Plus I have no real idea how things are done in Thailand.

On a side note, do I need to show I've taken steps to getting her into a school over here?

A friend of mine and his wife went through an almost identical situation to yours last year (except that his wife had spent time in Australia).

When she got divorced from her children's father he was given custody but never exercised it and both her daughters lived with her in the family home in the village. She then went to Australia for two years, leaving her daughters in the care of her mother and sending money regularly for their upkeep. After returning to Thailand she met and married a friend of mine and all four lived in his house here. When they decided to move to the UK she needed to change the custody first. Because her ex husband had 'disappeared' she had to go to court to prove she had (and was still) taken care of her children since her divorce (and I think that did cost her about 12,000 baht). Because she went down this route she could use the court parers to get her daughters passports and show them to the British Embassy, she didn't need the Amphur paperwork I refered to in an earlier post. She had been told (when she first started looking into what was necessary) that if she was in contact with her ex the custody could have been resolved at the Amphur and she wouldn't have had the expense of going to court but I don't know what's involved then. The 'piece of paper from the Amphur' would then have been necessary for the Passport office etc though.

As for documentary proof of resonsibility that's a difficult one. Apart from the piece of paper from the Amphur we supplied a letter from her school stating that we paid the school fees, attended the school parents day etc. and the school bus picked our daughter up and dropped her off at our house every day. We also supplied a copy of her name in the Tabien Baan (but that only shows she's registered at our house) and various photos, airline tickets,etc to show we'd been on holiday/had days out together (but again that doesn't actually show she lives with us). I think, at the end of the day, all you can do is provide as much evidence as possible of your everyday lives together so that the ECO can conclude that 'in all probability' you do have day to day responsibility as well as custody.

You don't need to organize anything about her schooling until she actually arrives in the UK, but if the area of the UK you live in is anything like the area we're moving to, some schools are much better equipped to deal with pupils whose first language isn't English than others are, so it might be worthwhile checking this out while you're waiting, for your own benefit.

Good Luck

[7by7]

Now you might call it 'just a piece of paper from the Amphur' but, with all the information contained within it, in my eyes it's a certified statement of both custody AND responsilibity.

With respect, how you view this document is irrelevant. What's important is what the UK immigration rules and entry clearance guidance says.

The Thai authorities deem it important enough that (unless both parents are together and both sign the application form) they won't issue a passport without this document

Again with respect, what the Thai authorities deem important is irrelevant; it's what the UK authorities think that matters.

the British Embassy deem it important enough that not only should it form part of the proof of custody and responsibility but it must be an original document

Yes, it could be used as part of the evidence, not all of it. As is standard, originals of any official document are preferred.

If the parent and child are, and have been, living together then the sole responsibility question is easily settled. In our case my wife and her daughter applied at the same time and all we showed was the sole custody document. Sole responsibility was taken as a given simply because they were living at the same address and applied together.

If parent and child have been living apart then more evidence of sole responsibility is required; and the longer they have been separated the more difficult this could be.

Castor, you should read Chapter 14 - Settlement entry for children, paying particular attention to Para14.5 - "Sole responsibility"

[sumrit]

quote name='7by7' date='2009-06-17 02:03:21' post='2809486'

quote name='sumrit' post='2806822' date='2009-06-15 22:34:52']Now you might call it 'just a piece of paper from the Amphur' but, with all the information contained within it, in my eyes it's a certified statement of both custody AND responsilibity.

With respect, how you view this document is irrelevant. What's important is what the UK immigration rules and entry clearance guidance says.

I quite agree. It was TVE that called it 'just a piece of paper from the Amphur' not me. I was pointing out that as PART of the custody and responsibilty proof the British Embassy wanted to see it. Not only that, although copies of some documents are acceptable, a copy of this one is not. When the VFS staff were checking all the documents my wife was presenting she was told a copy was not acceptable and she must go and get an original from the Amphur. On the same day at the VFS office a Thai lady, who already lives in the UK and who had come back to get her son's visa, didn't have this document at all. She was told, by a different staff member that the Embassy would want to see one and she'd have to go to the Amphur to get one.

So to use what ever terminology you like 'in my eyes' - 'from my experience' - 'as told by the staff at the VFS centre' I was pointing out that it does appear to be an important document that the British Embassy would like to see, and should not be dismissed as a 'piece of parer from the Amphur' as TVE had done!

The Thai authorities deem it important enough that (unless both parents are together and both sign the application form) they won't issue a passport without this document

Again with respect, what the Thai authorities deem important is irrelevant; it's what the UK authorities think that matters.

Again, with respect, by adding this comment I was just pointing out that BOTH the Thai Authorities AND the British Embassy want to see the document, and in it's original form. Neither dismiss it as 'just a piece of paper from the Amphur' as TVE had done.

the British Embassy deem it important enough that not only should it form part of the proof of custody and responsibility but it must be an original document

Yes, it could be used as part of the evidence, not all of it. As is standard, originals of any official document are preferred.

If the parent and child are, and have been, living together then the sole responsibility question is easily settled. In our case my wife and her daughter applied at the same time and all we showed was the sole custody document. Sole responsibility was taken as a given simply because they were living at the same address and applied together.

If parent and child have been living apart then more evidence of sole responsibility is required; and the longer they have been separated the more difficult this could be.

My step daughter has lived with my wife all her life and the three of us have lived together for over three years in Thailand and, like yours, my wife and stepdaughter applied at the same time yet my wife was still asked to provide the Amphur document. The Thai lady I refered to earlier lived has lived in the UK for over two years while her son lived in Thailand with his grandparents. So it appears 'from my experience' and 'at the present time' the British Embassy are asking to see 'this piece of paper from the Amphur' regardless of whether the child lives with you or not.

Castor, you should read Chapter 14 - Settlement entry for children, paying particular attention to Para14.5 - "Sole responsibility"

TVE are specialists in acting for people wanting to get visas to the UK and also give a lot of good free advice on this forum, as you do yourself, whereas most of the other posters, my self included, try to answer peoples queries purely from our own personal experiences. Over the years I had put together, helped friends put together, about twenty visa applications, six of which were for settlement visas. During this time I have seen changes in the way the British Embassy deal with applications and the different requirements they expect and try to give advice based on those experiences. A specialist like TVE would have seen much, much more in the way of changes.

Maybe this piece of paper is something the Embassy have only recently started asking for, maybe the staff at the VFS centre were just being awkward because they were p**sed off at the sudden surge in visa applications, I've got no idea. All I was doing was passing on my experiences to the OP in the hope that he doesn't get delayed/caught out like we and at least one other person has.

[Castor83]

Thanks all,

I think I'm startin to understand it now My girl got the 12k piece of paper today. And she seems sure she has plenty of stuff from the school. Letters bills etc. and she will be askin them to write a letter stating she came to all the parents meetings since shes been back in thailand. Although i think there has only been one. She also has lots of photos from trips they been together on.

The Tabien Baan- that is like the house book thing, yeah? We had to have it to get my son's birth certificate (thai one). Hmm there is a issue with that I think. When my girlfriend came to England years ago she signed her house over to her brother in law, because she couldnt pay the mortgage from over in england. Can you change it back? Although I dont think she would want to as shes gonna be in england again hopefully and still has a few thousand to pay on the house. Either way im sure her brother in law could write a letter or something to go with the applicaiton.

Would it be worth gettin her sister to write a letter too? Saying while she cared for the girl when my girlfirend was in england, she followed my girlfriends instructions regarding schoolin and stuff. And my girlfriend sent the money to pay for everything... Or would this be pointless as they are family and the ECO wouldnt trust it is true?

Anyways unfortunately it seems I have a fair while to wait till we can even apply as we don't kno yet if my girlfriends application has been successful... Roll on end of July!

EDIT:

Just read the entry clearance notes 7by7 suggested, this is very interesting :-

"Where the physical or mental incapability of the parent who is not in the UK has been established, an entry clearance should normally be granted"

I'll have to find out just how "sick" her father is I guess...

[DWALDO]

I am in the same boat, my wife and I have just booked tickets to go back to Thailand to get a passport for her son she says she has to go back to the Amphur to get some kind of certificate for the passport. We will then hand the papers into Regent House for his settlement application.

She changed his name at the Amphur from his absent father to hers last year

I have two questions will a letter from his school stating we have paid for his education, a copy of his grandfathers house book with his name on it and bank statements showing consistent payments into my wife's account in Thailand prove sufficient to convince the ECO of sole responsibility. The bank statements don't prove that the money went to keep her son just that it was transferred.

The other question do we have to get any paperwork we obtain officially translated into English.

[sumrit]

I am in the same boat, my wife and I have just booked tickets to go back to Thailand to get a passport for her son she says she has to go back to the Amphur to get some kind of certificate for the passport. We will then hand the papers into Regent House for his settlement application.

She changed his name at the Amphur from his absent father to hers last year

I have two questions will a letter from his school stating we have paid for his education, a copy of his grandfathers house book with his name on it and bank statements showing consistent payments into my wife's account in Thailand prove sufficient to convince the ECO of sole responsibility. The bank statements don't prove that the money went to keep her son just that it was transferred.

The other question do we have to get any paperwork we obtain officially translated into English.

When she goes to the Amphur she and two witnesses will have to make a declaration on who has been responsible for the day to day care/decision making for her son, as well as custody. While the bank statements don't show the money was for her sons keep, added to the Amphur certificate along with any other documentation you might have (school correspondence, phone records of calls to him, photos etc.) it will show the ECO that 'in all probability' that is what the money was for. Make sure she gets two copies at the Amphur.

Make sure she adds a copy of the name change certificate. For some reason this is one thing where just a copy is sufficient, my wife had changed her forename and supplied the original and a copy of the certificate but thr person checking everything at the VFS centre gave her the original back and said a copy was OK.

No, you don't have to, on the visa application form it states it is no longer necessary to have documents translated into English, although if you've already done so I'd give them both copies anyway.

[ubonjoe]

Posts that violate rule 5 of forum rules along with a resulatant reply deleted.

[DWALDO]

I am in the same boat, my wife and I have just booked tickets to go back to Thailand to get a passport for her son she says she has to go back to the Amphur to get some kind of certificate for the passport. We will then hand the papers into Regent House for his settlement application.

She changed his name at the Amphur from his absent father to hers last year

I have two questions will a letter from his school stating we have paid for his education, a copy of his grandfathers house book with his name on it and bank statements showing consistent payments into my wife's account in Thailand prove sufficient to convince the ECO of sole responsibility. The bank statements don't prove that the money went to keep her son just that it was transferred.

The other question do we have to get any paperwork we obtain officially translated into English.

When she goes to the Amphur she and two witnesses will have to make a declaration on who has been responsible for the day to day care/decision making for her son, as well as custody. While the bank statements don't show the money was for her sons keep, added to the Amphur certificate along with any other documentation you might have (school correspondence, phone records of calls to him, photos etc.) it will show the ECO that 'in all probability' that is what the money was for. Make sure she gets two copies at the Amphur.

Make sure she adds a copy of the name change certificate. For some reason this is one thing where just a copy is sufficient, my wife had changed her forename and supplied the original and a copy of the certificate but thr person checking everything at the VFS centre gave her the original back and said a copy was OK.

No, you don't have to, on the visa application form it states it is no longer necessary to have documents translated into English, although if you've already done so I'd give them both copies anyway.

Hi again,

My wife says she has a certificate from the Amphur, she got this when she changed the boys name from his fathers to his mothers. she went with her father and a woman who had something to do with the village but she says she still needs some letter from the Amphur when she applies for his passport.

I'm a bit confused as to whether she already has enough to go to the passport office or if this letter is important. Surely she would not have been able to change his name unless they agreed she had sole responsibility.

I know we need more for the ECO and will get letters from the school and anyone else we can think of as well as the bank statements.

Thanks,

Dave

[sumrit]

I am in the same boat, my wife and I have just booked tickets to go back to Thailand to get a passport for her son she says she has to go back to the Amphur to get some kind of certificate for the passport. We will then hand the papers into Regent House for his settlement application.

She changed his name at the Amphur from his absent father to hers last year

I have two questions will a letter from his school stating we have paid for his education, a copy of his grandfathers house book with his name on it and bank statements showing consistent payments into my wife's account in Thailand prove sufficient to convince the ECO of sole responsibility. The bank statements don't prove that the money went to keep her son just that it was transferred.

The other question do we have to get any paperwork we obtain officially translated into English.

When she goes to the Amphur she and two witnesses will have to make a declaration on who has been responsible for the day to day care/decision making for her son, as well as custody. While the bank statements don't show the money was for her sons keep, added to the Amphur certificate along with any other documentation you might have (school correspondence, phone records of calls to him, photos etc.) it will show the ECO that 'in all probability' that is what the money was for. Make sure she gets two copies at the Amphur.

Make sure she adds a copy of the name change certificate. For some reason this is one thing where just a copy is sufficient, my wife had changed her forename and supplied the original and a copy of the certificate but thr person checking everything at the VFS centre gave her the original back and said a copy was OK.

No, you don't have to, on the visa application form it states it is no longer necessary to have documents translated into English, although if you've already done so I'd give them both copies anyway.

Hi again,

My wife says she has a certificate from the Amphur, she got this when she changed the boys name from his fathers to his mothers. she went with her father and a woman who had something to do with the village but she says she still needs some letter from the Amphur when she applies for his passport.

I'm a bit confused as to whether she already has enough to go to the passport office or if this letter is important. Surely she would not have been able to change his name unless they agreed she had sole responsibility.

I know we need more for the ECO and will get letters from the school and anyone else we can think of as well as the bank statements.

Thanks,

Dave

My wife says the document your wife needs from the Amphur is a 'BOR KOR 14'. both the passport office and the British Embassy will need originals of this so make sure she asks for two. The Amphur will probably tell her to photo copy it and she'll have to explain thats not acceptable, something I've found most Thais (including my wife) don't like doing when talking to officials.

[DWALDO]

I am in the same boat, my wife and I have just booked tickets to go back to Thailand to get a passport for her son she says she has to go back to the Amphur to get some kind of certificate for the passport. We will then hand the papers into Regent House for his settlement application.

She changed his name at the Amphur from his absent father to hers last year

I have two questions will a letter from his school stating we have paid for his education, a copy of his grandfathers house book with his name on it and bank statements showing consistent payments into my wife's account in Thailand prove sufficient to convince the ECO of sole responsibility. The bank statements don't prove that the money went to keep her son just that it was transferred.

The other question do we have to get any paperwork we obtain officially translated into English.

When she goes to the Amphur she and two witnesses will have to make a declaration on who has been responsible for the day to day care/decision making for her son, as well as custody. While the bank statements don't show the money was for her sons keep, added to the Amphur certificate along with any other documentation you might have (school correspondence, phone records of calls to him, photos etc.) it will show the ECO that 'in all probability' that is what the money was for. Make sure she gets two copies at the Amphur.

Make sure she adds a copy of the name change certificate. For some reason this is one thing where just a copy is sufficient, my wife had changed her forename and supplied the original and a copy of the certificate but thr person checking everything at the VFS centre gave her the original back and said a copy was OK.

No, you don't have to, on the visa application form it states it is no longer necessary to have documents translated into English, although if you've already done so I'd give them both copies anyway.

Hi again,

My wife says she has a certificate from the Amphur, she got this when she changed the boys name from his fathers to his mothers. she went with her father and a woman who had something to do with the village but she says she still needs some letter from the Amphur when she applies for his passport.

I'm a bit confused as to whether she already has enough to go to the passport office or if this letter is important. Surely she would not have been able to change his name unless they agreed she had sole responsibility.

I know we need more for the ECO and will get letters from the school and anyone else we can think of as well as the bank statements.

Thanks,

Dave

My wife says the document your wife needs from the Amphur is a 'BOR KOR 14'. both the passport office and the British Embassy will need originals of this so make sure she asks for two. The Amphur will probably tell her to photo copy it and she'll have to explain thats not acceptable, something I've found most Thais (including my wife) don't like doing when talking to officials.

Thanks a lot can she get this one on her own or does she have to drag two witnesses along with her?

Dave

[sumrit]

Thanks a lot can she get this one on her own or does she have to drag two witnesses along with her?

Dave

She needs to take two witnesses with her who now her and her sons family history, and it can be a relative.

My wife took her mother and sister as witnesses.

[DWALDO]

Thanks a lot can she get this one on her own or does she have to drag two witnesses along with her?

Dave

She needs to take two witnesses with her who now her and her sons family history, and it can be a relative.

My wife took her mother and sister as witnesses.