Thai Culture

[bungy007]

Two points:

'Culture' as understood in modern parlance is created by globalisation. These little distinct packages of behaviour, customs and norms did not exist until the process of Western globalisation (the first wave was the trade imperialism of the Netherlands and Britain). They are generated as the 'other' against the 'evil' of universalisation of Western values. It should be obvious that there is no such thing as Thai culture-- it is made up of so many distinct groups that were carefully co-opted by a powerful state. Please see "Thailand: A plastic nation'. Thailand was created by an elite to stop the West taking their lands, not because by an incredible fluke a state was born that exacly represented the nation of that space. In the modern day, 'culture' is invented to fight universal norms, to act as a useful mechanism in inculcating identity into nation-state citizens. How else do you get a third generation thai-chinese merchant living in Bangkok to feel loyalty to a monoploy of violence (the State)?

There is no such thing as Truth (note the capitalisation). There are many truths. This is immensely complex and asks questions of epistemology that simply are not suited to an internet forum. Ask youself: "how do you know that which you claim to know?". The masses usually buy into a Postivist view of the World of Truth, where surveys, opinion polls and empirical evidence comfort them with a sense of finding a deep truth. Among the academic elite, Positivism lost its grip in the late 1950s. If you ask "do you have any statistics for that?" to an academic studying human culture, they will choke on their morning coffee. I recommend you read Karl Popper.

Snittt

I must but wont

Your post made my eyes bleed

Does anyone remember when the bird flew first started out here. The EU sent a British Representatvie over here to check out Thailand's state of play. He was given the full tour and informed by the relevant ministry in Thailand that all was well and no chickens were carrying H1N5. The representative returned and made a full report to the EU that all is well in LOS. Then a week or so later, after word got out, Thailand had to hold up its hands and declare that it was riddled with disease. The EU representative threw his toys out of his pram, declaring that The Thai Ministry had lied to him in the extreme and made him look a fool. what was interesting was that the Bangkok Post carried an article with the Thai Minister in question explaining, with no sense of shame, that there are many different types of 'truth' and he had told the version that the EU Rep wanted to hear!

something to be learned here. Tourism is booming and the Thai economy will not be brought down by the global recession - I'm sure that in Thailand that could be the 'truth' to some

[MEGALITHIC]

I keep reading about this wonderful thingymijig called Thai Culture.

I'm English and up until sometime in the early 1990s never really used to hear this word used to describe much apart from Art and em ....... more art.

Now its banded about by all manner of people to describe pretty much everything, to make themselves IMO sound enlightened.

On the basis that being polite, eating food, working, wanting nice things in life and to be content are for most on this planet just part of their day to day lives what are the exclusive traits of Thai culture people on here keep refering to.

I will start the ball rolling with the extreme value of "keeping Face".

The last time I came on here I got bumped for being insensitive when really, I was just stating a few facts. Hopefully, that's not going to happen this time.

Thai culture, from what I've seen, as an all encompassing term which not only includes art, music, dancing, religion but also, importantly a peoples mindset. In other words the ways in which they see themselves, view others and interact with people on a day to day basis. As we know Buddhism plays a big part in Thai culture. An older set of beliefs - folk religion (based on ancestor worship and animism) - also runs very strongly throughout all of Thai culture. A lot of it has been integrated into the Thai version of Buddhism.

According to Wikipedia:

Theravada Buddhism reached what is now Thailand around the sixth century A.D.

Theravada Buddhism was made the state religion only with the establishment of the Thai kingdom of Sukhothai in the thirteenth century A.D.

Three major forces have influenced the development of Buddhism in Thailand. The most visible influence is that of the Theravada school of Buddhism, imported from Sri Lanka.

The second major influence on Thai Buddhism is Hindu beliefs received from Cambodia, particularly during the Sukhothai period. Vedic Hinduism played a strong role in the early Thai institution of kingship, just as it did in Cambodia, and exerted influence in the creation of laws and order for Thai society as well as Thai religion.

Buddhism in Thailand has become integrated with folk beliefs such as ancestor worship.

Folk religion—attempts to propitiate and attract the favor of local spirits known as phi—forms the third major influence on Thai Buddhism. While Western observers (as well as urbane and Western-educated Thais) have often drawn a clear line between Thai Buddhism and folk religious practices, this distinction is rarely observed in more rural locales. Spiritual power derived from the observance of Buddhist precepts and rituals is employed in attempting to appease local nature spirits. Many restrictions observed by rural Buddhist monks are derived not from the orthodox Vinaya, but from taboos derived from the practice of folk magic. Astrology, numerology, and the creation of talismans and charms also play a prominent role in Buddhism as practiced by the average Thai—topics that are, if not proscribed, at least marginalized in Buddhist texts.

Folk religion consists of any cultural practices without a guiding authority which are deemed "religious" by outside observers, including beliefs, superstitions and rituals.

Folk religion answers human needs for reassurance in times of trouble, and many of its rituals are aimed at mundane goals like seeking healing or averting misfortune. Many elements of folk religion stem from animistic or fetishistic practices, which is almost inevitable given its mundane goals and ritualistic nature. Folk religion also often aims at divination to foresee the future. The line is often blurry between the practice of folk religion and the practice of magic. Examples of folk religion would include:

· Ancestor worship

· Amulets, protective qualities ascribed to religious objects like the Bible or a crucifix; hex signs

· Animism, or belief in spiritual beings associated with landscape or specific human domains

· Belief in traditional systems of magic (hoodoo, voodoo, pow-wow, Benedicaria, Palo Monte and Santería)

· Blessing of animals and crops (fertility rites), food, vehicles, buildings etc.

· Superstition, rituals to ward off the Evil Eye, curses, demons, witchcraft etc.

· With the rise of Buddhism, folk religions came to be marginalized as "leftover" traditions in rural areas, referred to as paganism.

A ritual may be performed on specific occasions, or at the discretion of individuals or communities. It may be performed by a single individual, by a group, or by the entire community; in arbitrary places, or in places especially reserved for it; either in public, in private, or before specific people.

The purposes of rituals are varied and they include:

· Compliance with religious obligations or ideals

· Satisfaction of spiritual or emotional needs of the practitioners

· Strengthening of social bonds

· Demonstration of respect or submission

· Stating one's affiliation

· Obtaining social acceptance or approval for some event

Due to their symbolic nature, there are hardly any limits to the kind of actions that may be incorporated into a ritual. The rites of past and present societies have typically involved special gestures and words, recitation of fixed texts, performance of special music, songs or dances, processions, manipulation of certain objects, use of special dresses, consumption of special food, drink, or drugs, and much more. Religious rituals have also included animal sacrifice, human sacrifice, ritual suicide, and ritual murder.

Various animistic religions, such as Japan's Shinto and various Native American and African tribal beliefs, focus around invisible beings which represent or connect with plants, animals (sometimes called "Animal Fathers"), or landforms; translators usually employ the English word "spirit" when trying to express the idea of such entities.

In Thailand it is the spirit guardians, or ancestors, of the lands that are regularly appeased, and catered to, by the erection of a spirit house in strategic locations.

Widespread belief, or the acceptance, of the existence of demon spirits or ghosts: People usually conceive of a ghost as a wandering spirit from a being no longer living, having survived the death of the body yet maintaining at least vestiges of mind and of consciousness.

The use of Divination: (from Latin divinare "to be inspired by a god", related to divine, diva and deus) is the attempt to gain insight into a question or situation by way of a standardized process or ritual. Diviners ascertain their interpretations of how a querent should proceed by reading signs, events, or omens, or through alleged contact with a supernatural agency. Divination can be seen as a systematic method with which to organize what appear to be disjointed, random facets of existence such that they provide insight into a problem at hand. If a distinction is to be made between divination and fortune-telling, divination has a formal or ritual and often social character, usually in a religious context; while fortune-telling is a more everyday practice for personal purposes.

[seri thai]

I somewhat agree - there are great many things that are just traditions rather than "culture".

I can do no better than copy from "Phetaroi"'s contribution on the Thai buddhism thread which should give a quick jolt to all the "jai rawn" fahrangs on here (myself included) who have forgotten why you came here in the first place (I know, some of you thought it was for women- but what KIND of women?)

but i digress....

This from Gore vidal via Phetaroi

"What [such] Westerners take to be Thai apathy is the Buddhist non-confrontational approach to life, which is totally unlike that of those who worship the Judeo-Christian God, forever in dubious battle on the plains of Heaven with Lucifer. Because of this constant rage in heaven, we tend to mirror it here on Earth where it is taken for granted that nation must constantly fight nation, class class, family family....Although the Thai Buddhists have had their share of wars and incursions, crimes and alarums, they cope with needless pain in ways different from ours. The Buddha teaches that pain comes from desire. Therefore, to eliminate desire is to lessen the pain of existence. Obviously no one lives up to this system any more than anyone has ever lived up to the tenets of Judaism or Christianity, but a society based on the teachings of the Buddha is bound to be very different from one based upon a furious God dueling with a wily Devil....Sensibly, the Thais have tried to take what is necessary for them to survive without ever surrendering their ancient equilibrium, with its profound sense of a multitude of spirits in a world that is nothing but a series of illusions, on the order of a kaleidoscope. All things are brief as winks, they believe, and each travels in the little ferryboat toward (if the passenger is enlightened) a shining state of wholeness."

[venturalaw]

I liken the difference between Western and Thai cultures to the differences in which a Thai vs. a Westerner would approach or treat a common situation. Here is a true example of what I experienced.

I was new to a mooban and while having breakfast at the local restaurant mentioned to the waitress who was related to a Thai friend that I required my laundry to be cleaned. She recommended a local (within the same mooban) lady who provides laundry service. She even walked me over to the woman and introduced me. So I took my laundry there. When I received the laundry back, some was still dirty, and I was over-charged.

The next time I was in the restaurant the waitress asked me how I liked the laundry service. I would not have said anything had I not been asked, but, since I was asked, I wasn't going to lie. Well, here is the way I responded, followed by the proper Thai response;

1. I said frankly, since you asked, I was disappointed. Not only was I over-charged, but the laundry was not clean. The waitress looked embarrassed.

Proper Thai response:

2. It was wonderful. Thank you for recommending her to me.

By telling the truth, I caused the waitress to loose face. From the Western perspective I wanted her to know so that she would cease making the same recommendation thereby disappointing others. However for the Thai it is more important (actually commendable) to lie so that the waitress would 'feel good' about the recommendation.

I am not saying one way is preferable to the other - just laying out the differences.

Edited August 18, 2009 by venturalaw

[sanmiguellight]

^^^^^

I see what youre getting at Ventura, however i went to a farang owned restaurant in Samui and order a pizza that really wasnt very nice, however i had been sat drinking with the owner and his wife for a while, so when asked what i thought of the Pizza i instantly replied it was very nice especially with the fresh ingredients, such a response is programmed into us English and is done in such a way so the Owner didnt lose face, hence making him feel good about his business!

Another time i was with my ex TGF and her family and we were talking about which are good airlines as i was flying with Singapore i said they were very good, i was then asked what Thai Air were like, imo theyre crap as the planes are old ... but i knew there was only one possible answer i could give in that they were as good as any if not better, i used to work in East Europe and the people out there are similar in the sense you've got to say whatever is vaguely something the may be proud of is wonderful no matter how bad it is, as it keeps them happy for a moment.

However if i were well acquainted with any of these people the truth would be more acceptable to say!

[JR Texas]

Culture: is a shared, learned, symbolic system of values, beliefs and attitudes that shapes and influences perception and behavior -- an abstract "mental blueprint" or "mental code".

That is a good definition of culture........it is shared, learned information.........it is mental.........inside the mind. It guides decision-making and behavior. Learning is the key.....altering the flow of cultural information is what learning is all about.

Culture also interacts with out biology (evolutionary based traits) in complex ways............we are a biocultural species.

What is Thai culture? It is a mess at the moment.

[mca]

Here, you just see more of the "public display of religion," than in the west. But bottom line--it doesn't seem to affect behavior.

My thoughts exactly. A local businessman I know pays minimum wage, gives unpaid holidays (5 days a year) and if he needs you to work on your day off or a public holiday you don't have any choice but he'll soon donate 15 million baht to a temple. I was talking to a respected abbot in my area (living alone in a forest temple job) once about how I and my wife never give food to monks in the morning because other folks have already fed them but I'd give 100 baht to the little girl of the poor bastard going through my bins looking for bottles so she could by some sweets and compared myself to the businessman and the abbot said the merit I earned was more than his. Reckon he could have saved 15 million baht there!

[midasthailand]

Thai culture is whatever the Thai girl you are with says it is, that will allow her to do whatever it is you think is wrong. E.G She can scream and rant at you in public but if you reply in kind you will be told it is not very culturally sensitive to lose your temper in public....Go figure??

[thesunset75]

My mom donated 200,000 THB to the temple in the village, wish that she will have a good life in the next life. ! and gaint her face !!

Sorry mom, but I have to say you cannot eat your face and next life. I put all money on the new house to give her a commfy place to stay.

She dont bother to buy her own bed nor furniture or new kitchen, but donate to the temple !!!

I will blame the Thai culture

[mca]

you will be told it is not very culturally sensitive to lose your temper in public

I wish somebody would tell that to the woman who lives in the soi behind us. When her husband comes home lashed on lao kao she stands in the street going off at him like a Dresden air raid siren.

[doggie888888]

I somewhat agree - there are great many things that are just traditions rather than "culture".

Aren't traditions part of a culture?

[MiG16]

Thai culture is whatever the Thai girl you are with says it is, that will allow her to do whatever it is you think is wrong. E.G She can scream and rant at you in public but if you reply in kind you will be told it is not very culturally sensitive to lose your temper in public....Go figure??

lets not get too sarcastic

Im sure you know as well as I do that THAT is not part of thai culture, and anyone (the girls) whos trying to claim it as such is only making fools of themselves. Im sure you dont believe that...so lets not paint that as being thai culture

[elkangorito]

Here is the official website for the Ministry of Culture, Thailand;

http://webhost.m-culture.go.th/en/

It's also worth taking a look at this page, which is on the above site;

http://webhost.m-culture.go.th/en/index.ph.../43-e-book.html

Check the "e-books" downloads.

Here is another interesting site but could be out-of-date;

http://www.wwcd.org/policy/clink/Thailand.html

The "Instruments of Cultural Policy" section is particularly interesting.

The framework and direction in implementation of the national culture plan 1992-1996 are composed of 14 issues. The issues are:

1. instillation of the desirable values and characteristics of the people;

2. emphasis on the importance of family;

3. encouraging study of and research of folk wisdom;

4. encouraging the state and the people to recognize and preserve value of cultural identity at national and local levels;

5. broadening participation in cultural life;

6. promotion of arts and cultural exchange at the national and international levels;

7. installation of the desirable attitudes, knowledge, and understanding of nature;

8. encouraging the awareness of cultural heritage as cherished property;

9. coordination of tourist agencies and cultural agencies for the benefit of consistent goals and means as well as mutual support;

10. provision of facilities for public to participate in cultural activities;

11. improvement of education in harmonious blend with local culture;

12. encouragement of Buddhism Institution;

13. improvement of organizations and the efficiency of cultural administration;

14. setting up cultural information network.

Download the book "Thai Social Etiquette" from the Ministry of Culture website. It has some good tips & some "interesting" ones too.

Note page 10 of the book, "Informal/Home visit".

Whether invited to the house or somewhere else, the visitor may bring in a little present for the host. In the olden days, the Thais always brought home-made food or desserts to the house of the host. Nowadays, modern social etiquette is more widely applied. So a bottle of wine, a hamper of fresh fruits and canned food, a pound or two of freshly-made cakes or a small tray of Thai traditional sweets is always appreciated.

Note page 24, "Theatre",

Turn off all kinds of communication devices. If you have some business to attend to, do it at home. The sound of a cell phone ringing during the performance, especially a classical concert, is intolerable and very offensive, most of all to the artist or the maestro.

Edited August 18, 2009 by elkangorito

[dragonfly94]

Here is the official website for the Ministry of Culture, Thailand;

http://webhost.m-culture.go.th/en/

It's also worth taking a look at this page, which is on the above site;

http://webhost.m-culture.go.th/en/index.ph.../43-e-book.html

Check the "e-books" downloads

As expected nothing about popular Thai culture but rather the upper class version and the one they want to present to the outside. Search results give nothing for morlam, luktung, kantrum, phua cheewit or even string, oh yes that does bring up classical orchestras, very Thai. Did not try muay thai or chicken fighting!

[ucantbeserious]

Culture would have to be the most abused word by far in this forum.

an easy word to use, and useful in arguments,

because saying something is "culture" gives it a sort of respected legitimacy.

Culture ? or is it just a social norm?

example from Aus,

the idea of "mateship", blokes looking after blokes, supposedly born in the trenches in WW1,

has been elevated and used particularly by a former prime minister,

to an almost sacred level.

when an idea achieves this status in a society, the idea becomes unassailable.

its very funny because the most common expression of "mateship" would be a few blokes standing around a "barbie" (BBQ) eating sausages and drinking beer.

a delightful sacred ritual.

so, when in Rome do as the Romans do?

up to you...

personally, often i don't, just because i have become so sick of stupidness, i think it needs to highlighted, else there is no possibility of change.

i find an interesting comparison is between asian "saving face" and the USA version of "self-esteem".

whereas "saving face" seems to keep everyone at the same base level of "worth",

"self-esteem" seems to be a fight to elevate everyone to a higher imagined level of "worth".

a soft approach versus a struggle approach.

i would take to task a statement in a previous post,

quote:

"analytical thought and discussion is not an asian trait and why absolute truth is less valued."

endquote:

particulalrly from a Buddhist point of view, this is simply ignorant.

for example , the Buddhist analysis of the mind is still far ahead of western psychology (my opinion),

absolute truth, of course, is the very core of Buddhist teaching (the Four Noble Truths),

gunpowder? great walls? art?

about the same time the pre-Socratic Greek philosophers were conjecturing about "atoms",

the Buddha was teaching about "kalappas", the fundamental component of existence which arises and falls millions of times per second (shades of modern atomic physics).

"saving face", "mai pen rai", "no responsibility" and "not criticizing" do a nice job in making an apparent social harmony,

but when you see what these things do to the education system, you realise what a roadblock they are to the society making progress.

ah well.....

what can i do?

[F1fanatic]

With such a blending of western and eastern cultures today it is hard to define what is Thai culture.

Traditionally, in lower income families, the Thais have to pull together as a family for them succeed financially. Grand parents will look after the grand children and the parents of the children will find some sort of income that is shared with the family as a whole. Wealthy Thais will hire maids and servents to look after children while the head of the household takes care of the family business. Thais seem to have more respect for elderly people and hold them in higher esteem than do western cultures.

In our western society we try to educate our children so they can be financially self sufficient and look after their own children. Western families are not usually as tight knit as Thai families and very often they are quite fractured.

As a race, the Thais tend to be a little more religious and try to follow the teachings of Buddha. Western cultures are all over the map when it comes to religion.

But, these are just generalities as I've seen it. There are many exceptions to the rule.

I find it hard to believe you're serious! Grand parents look after the grand children 'cos they've been abandoned by the parents, and they're hoping to get more money this way (by sending the mother out to prostitution). You said the same thing but in a devious way.

Thai have more respect and esteem for elderly people?? Possibly, but only for their parents. They have absolutely no respect for elderly Western men (unless they're giving them money).

Thais follow the teachings of Buddah?? Which teachings?? I can't wait to hear.

[elkangorito]

An extract from "Buddhism--A Brief Introduction for Westerners."

http://www.longleaf.net/ggrow/Buddhism.html

Suffering is Caused by Attachment.

Suffering arises because everything changes, everything is impermanent. Everything is in process, all the time. Whenever we hope to find any lasting happiness by means of something that is changing, suffering results. This means that nothing in the realm of ordinary human experience can provide lasting happiness, and trying to force things to stand still and make us happy is itself the main source of misery.

It appears to me that this is exactly what most "cultures" try to do...force things to stand still.

[Harcourt]

I'd love to observe the discussion on logic and reality.... but getting back to the OP:

"...And Thai culture of prizing harmony (and face) over truth ..." (LivinLOS).

I think that is an example of culture: the different mindset and mentality of peoples.

Music is another example of culture.

Actually, music is a good example also for the reason that when discussing differences in culture, there is no need to judge which is better or worse.....just different. Personally, I DETEST chinese opera, it is dischordant and raucous to MY ears....but I can't say it's absolutely terrible, just terrible to myself. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[david96]

Let us look at the difference between the English speaking Western cultures and Thai

culture.

Western. Social and Business. Use Australia and New Zealand as a benchmark.

Immediate family, extended family not important.

No social rank except in the UK. (Lower, Middle and Upper Classes.)

Individuality of the person.

Culture, Law and Politics derived from Roman, Greek and Christian origins.

We seek truth from lies. Honesty in general.

Do not tolerate corruption in our public affairs.

Open society.

Transparency in our business affairs.

Freedom to criticise policies and people

Generally but not always a polite society.

Thai. Social and Business.

Extended family is important.

Definite Social rank within society.

Individual belongs more to a group.

Culture, Law and Politics derived from Confucian, Buddhist origins.

Avoid telling the truth in case it causes loss of face. No being honest.

Tolerate corruption at all levels of society.

A more closed society.

Opaqueness of business dealings.

No criticism of policies or people.

Generally a most polite society.

[hammered]

Thailand differs so much from region to region and even within the regions that it is difficult to say what is "Thai" culture as opposed to culture in say the south or north of Thailand or say between the deep and upper south or between upper and lower northern region. It is interested to explore though if open minded and not blinded by our opwn culture part of which seems to be to distill everything down to a "Thai" culture as we see and pigeon hole it.

[KevinBloodyWilson]

Thailand differs so much from region to region and even within the regions that it is difficult to say what is "Thai" culture as opposed to culture in say the south or north of Thailand or say between the deep and upper south or between upper and lower northern region. It is interested to explore though if open minded and not blinded by our own culture part of which seems to be to distill everything down to a "Thai" culture as we see and pigeon hole it.

Today I am grumpy.

I am sure the above quote is right. The culture of a country is not something mystical or even well-defined, it is simply an expression of 'the way we do things around here', same as a corporate culture.

The Thai culture, like the British culture or any other, is a dynamic, moving thing which adapts to changing circumstances. Also it varies from region to region and sometimes even from village to village. It defies definition.

Unfortunately, Thais are repeatedly told that 'their Thainess' relies on them accepting what the pooyay say is their culture. Someone even told them in this last month that 'they should maintain their 'Thainess' by eating Thai rice and not farang rice'. Crazy? yes. Jingoistic and xenophobic? Yes. Delusional? Yes. Surprising? Sadly not.

That's why the government has a department of culture. So the pooyay can tell all the Thais out there what their culture is, and that is is somehow fixed and immutable. Otherwise their culture might change and evolve. Same as every other culture in the world. It is doomed to failure of course; frankly, the way Thais and Thailand are going, in 100 years nobody will even remember Thailand, let alone their feudal sakdina culture.

Two grumpy cents worth.

Kev

Edited August 19, 2009 by KevinBloodyWilson

[elkangorito]

I see all "culture" simply as memories, traditions & customs. All of these things are wonderful to remember & occasionally celebrate.

The problem arises when someone can see an opportunity to use "culture" as a tool of control. Immediately this is recognised as such, the traditions etc are "cast in stone"...they become "virtual" rules by which many are expected to live.

This same method is used for many things, religion being a prime example.

[chrisartist]

 the Thai (Buddhist) ability to hold two conflicting things as both true simultaneously – something we can't do in the west. I thought that was very interesting.

Holding two conflicting things as true simultaneously is a very common phenomenon worldwide. Even by 1983, when I had a dispute about this very point with my professor in a seminar class on philosophical issues in psychology, there was a well-established literature that demonstrated this very phenomenon.

[elkangorito]

the Thai (Buddhist) ability to hold two conflicting things as both true simultaneously – something we can't do in the west. I thought that was very interesting.

Holding two conflicting things as true simultaneously is a very common phenomenon worldwide. Even by 1983, when I had a dispute about this very point with my professor in a seminar class on philosophical issues in psychology, there was a well-established literature that demonstrated this very phenomenon.

I do this every day...been doing it for years. To me, it comes naturally.

[midasthailand]

Thai culture is whatever the Thai girl you are with says it is, that will allow her to do whatever it is you think is wrong. E.G She can scream and rant at you in public but if you reply in kind you will be told it is not very culturally sensitive to lose your temper in public....Go figure??

lets not get too sarcastic

Im sure you know as well as I do that THAT is not part of thai culture, and anyone (the girls) whos trying to claim it as such is only making fools of themselves. Im sure you dont believe that...so lets not paint that as being thai culture

OK, OK, so I have been suitably chastised and am contrite.......but, I honestly believe that because westerners are so conditioned by all the well meaning cultural advice received via the mass media (including fora such as this one), that a lot of Thais have realised that if they play the "culture" card they can get away with blue murder, particularly those Thais that have regular interaction with westerners......make your own mind up which Thais I am referring to.

[Harcourt]

There is no such thing as Truth (note the capitalisation). There are many truths. This is immensely complex and asks questions of epistemology that simply are not suited to an internet forum. Ask youself: "how do you know that which you claim to know?". The masses usually buy into a Postivist view of the World of Truth, where surveys, opinion polls and empirical evidence comfort them with a sense of finding a deep truth. Among the academic elite, Positivism lost its grip in the late 1950s. If you ask "do you have any statistics for that?" to an academic studying human culture, they will choke on their morning coffee. I recommend you read Karl Popper.

I was not discussing 'truths' that are subject to debate, truths that are formed from opinions, truths that come from group analysis. I mean the denial of facts if they are inconvienient or lower the persons face. Thai culture holds face over fact, they will happily lie through thier teeth claiming the day is night, or 'yes I did that job' or whatever it is that allows them not to be responsible and expect the world to follow thier norms of never challenging an outrght lie. As I said earlier this kind of social contract to ignore reality in favor of a conflict avoidance may well work in a static rice community of a couple hundred people but does not function in the modern world, it does not put men on the moon, or run nuclear power stations. The modern world needs truth in absolutes "no sir that uranium rod has not been made secure, I havent had time yet" not "chai khap".

One shall reiterate one's point, in the knowledge that I may be criticised for apparent verbosity. I just recommend that you read Karl Popper.

There is no such thing as truths, no matter how you define them. I will use your example of an absolute truth (at this point academics around the world are keeling over and spilling their coffees).

"no sir that uranium rod has not been made secure, I havent had time yet" not "chai khap"

How is something "secure"? [this is contextual]

How do you know it is an uranium rod? [this is contextual]

How does the worker know his role? [this is contextual]

You are probably getting the hang of it now.

Thais saving "face" appears absurd to the Positivist-influenced Westerner, but I don't even bat an eyelid.

Cogito, ergo sum.

I think you are being a tad pedantic Gaccha.....in the context of this discussion, fascinating as it is.

How do I know you wrote the words quoted above? Yet I respond to you.

How do YOU know you wrote those words?

Cogito, ergo sum.

[MiG16]

.......but, I honestly believe that because westerners are so conditioned by all the well meaning cultural advice received via the mass media (including fora such as this one), that a lot of Thais have realised that if they play the "culture" card they can get away with blue murder, particularly those Thais that have regular interaction with westerners......make your own mind up which Thais I am referring to.

alright, I guess Ill bite, since I fit into the above category of "thais that have regular interaction with westerners"

some of the culture 'cards' I have played include:

- telling westerners to remove shoes as they enter my place (in thailand house, abroad, just my room, as flatmates wear shoes around the house)

- when at meals, I serve my friends or whoever Im with. I dont tell them anything, but after some time they start to serve me now

- if for whatever reason I need to travel out of town overnight with a guy friend, I ask a female friend to accompany us. some dont ask, the ones that do I let them know that in Thai culture it is not appropriate for a single woman to spend a night with a guy (regardless of whether you are in same room or not, people assume that you are sleeping with the guy). bringing another female friend along makes things better (best would be if you travel in a group).

- I explain to my friends why even when abroad I wouldnt wear very short shorts (regardless of what the latest fad is), because it is not appropriate in Thai culture, and its too ingrained into me to change that even when Im in places where its totally acceptable.

- Im unable to complain about things I want to complain to the people that do it eg. people that constantly leave mess behind in shared area that I need to use. (but I vent out to friends, and annoy them with my trying to figure a 'nice' way to tell people to stop doing those 'not very nice' things).

Im sure there are lots of other things I do or in some cases explicitly say to my foreign friends where I cite my culture as the reasoning/explanation for doing or saying those things.

(no idea what blue murder is, so I cant relate my answer to that aspect of your post )