Who Am I?

[chuchok]

I heard a different story as to the origins of the word 'farang'.

So it goes that the first caucasion people to set foot in Thailand were Spanish and sailed here in boats some centurys ago, they came to conquer or take over some area's and obviously wern't recieved well by the Thai's and becuase of thier light skinned appearence were nick named ,Farang, after the Thai fruit becuase its white inside, I also heard that in the beggining it was used as a derogatory term, but that it just 'stuck' and now is not considered rude.

I can't remember where I heard this story, but I'm sure it was from a reliable source, anybody else hear this one???

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That was just you girls.....................The guys were called Man Falang

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or potato head

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I understand that "man" "มัน " is also the indefinite pronoun "it" used in refering to animals or things. I have also been told by my wife that some people, especially pretend girlfriends sometimes use this in reference to their 'farang boyfriend'. She said it is an absolute declaration of disrespect.

She also tells me that to use farang as a pronoun is also disrespectful (compared to using the persons proper name or a proper pronoun for second or third person 'เขา or ท่าน').

From that view I would say that it would show disrespect in the sense that the word does not acknowledge a person as an individual but a member of a general class of people.

But in reference to westerners in general it is common and accepted. Just as Asian or Oriental are accepted as not insulting in English as a generalization of all things eastern.

Edited for clarity

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A well educated thai will never call a foreigner มัน mun.I think you are most likely to hear mun from low educated persons,BGs.etc.etc.

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Don't you believe it.When we were living in an large condo,I over heard the owner talking about one of the farang residents in this way.He was a prat though....(The farang)

[srisatch]

I heard a different story as to the origins of the word 'farang'.

So it goes that the first caucasion people to set foot in Thailand were Spanish and sailed here in boats some centurys ago, they came to conquer or take over some area's and obviously wern't recieved well by the Thai's and becuase of thier light skinned appearence were nick named ,Farang, after the Thai fruit becuase its white inside, I also heard that in the beggining it was used as a derogatory term, but that it just 'stuck' and now is not considered rude.

I can't remember where I heard this story, but I'm sure it was from a reliable source, anybody else hear this one???

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That was just you girls.....................The guys were called Man Falang

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or potato head

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I understand that "man" "มัน " is also the indefinite pronoun "it" used in refering to animals or things. I have also been told by my wife that some people, especially pretend girlfriends sometimes use this in reference to their 'farang boyfriend'. She said it is an absolute declaration of disrespect.

She also tells me that to use farang as a pronoun is also disrespectful (compared to using the persons proper name or a proper pronoun for second or third person 'เขา or ท่าน').

From that view I would say that it would show disrespect in the sense that the word does not acknowledge a person as an individual but a member of a general class of people.

But in reference to westerners in general it is common and accepted. Just as Asian or Oriental are accepted as not insulting in English as a generalization of all things eastern.

Edited for clarity

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A well educated thai will never call a foreigner มัน mun.I think you are most likely to hear mun from low educated persons,BGs.etc.etc.

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Don't you believe it.When we were living in an large condo,I over heard the owner talking about one of the farang residents in this way.He was a prat though....(The farang)

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'Man' is clearly out of order..everyone I have spoken to agrees...but they also say they would never use it to a farang's face or within earshot..but it is in common to use colloquially!

"Why?"

"Well you are different.(.really?.)....you should know by now what many Thais think about farang!"

As far as I can see the only way forward is that the kids speak Thai absolutely fluently and colloquially with a good accent.....

[Malenonsense]

What are you all really hearing? You may be hearing Issarn-Thai /Lao and mixing it with Thai. Some words are used differently. BKK is loaded with northeastern Thais so some of what you are hearing is IssarnThai. And Northeastern Thai is not exactly like Lao so don't confuse the two. I'm no expert on the different languages and the use of words in those languages. All I am saying is don't rush to judgement.

I have heard the words "Hua Daeng" for farangs. Usually for babies I guess. It's used in Laos but may be used in Thailand. I've heard it is usually a little bit negative.

The worst word I've heard for farangs is I-rhang. I guess its pretty bad. But what do I know. I may be completely wrong.

What happens when you take a guava and cut it in half?

You get a half a guava. A kreung leuk or a Leuk Kreung? Just more for the fire.

What do westerners call mixed children besides mixedchildren?

[Malenonsense]

Most central Thais use Sahmee as the word for husband. I've heard that pua is used for a lover or something like that which is lower than a husband. Mia is weaker word used for wife. You've propbably heard the word mia noi. Well anyways most central Thai women won't call their husbands Pua but I think Northeastern Thais usually use this word. Anyhow Samme seems to be a more polite word than Pua if you are in central area. Anyone know more about this?

[Neeranam]

Most central Thais use Sahmee as the word for husband. I've heard that pua is used for a lover or something like that which is lower than a husband. Mia is weaker word used for wife. You've propbably heard the word mia noi. Well anyways most central Thai women won't call their husbands Pua but I think Northeastern Thais usually use this word. Anyhow Samme seems to be a more polite word than Pua if you are in central area. Anyone know more about this?

I think you will find that 'mia' is not very polite in cetral thailand. it is used all the time in Isarn though. I suggest you ask the boys and girls in the Thai language section, you will get a full ansewr.

What are you all really hearing? You may be hearing Issarn-Thai /Lao and mixing it with Thai. Some words are used differently. BKK is loaded with northeastern Thais so some of what you are hearing is IssarnThai. And Northeastern Thai is not exactly like Lao so don't confuse the two. I'm no expert on the different languages and the use of words in those languages. All I am saying is don't rush to judgement.

Very good advice malenonsense. It is alright for example for a family member who is older in Isarn to say 'man' to a younger member. Has to be close family though. It is a term of affection. Even when you think you know the Thai language and culture, you probably don't unless you have been in Thailand for 30 odd years, living amongst the Thai people.

'Man' is clearly out of order..everyone I have spoken to agrees...but they also say they would never use it to a farang's face or within earshot..but it is in common to use colloquially!

"Why?"

"Well you are different.(.really?.)....you should know by now what many Thais think about farang!"

As far as I can see the only way forward is that the kids speak Thai absolutely fluently and colloquially with a good accent.....

I agree it is clearly out of order. It can be qquite funny when you hear it on Khao San Road when the farang is smiling back with a stupid grin. I must admit I laughed hysterically one time when the staff were taking the piss out of a guest, not really harmful.

[Heng]

Farangs are often just 'foreigners.' My friends refer to me as a farang occasionally even though I am 100% Thai Chinese.

Really? Thai people calling a Chinese Thai, farang??????

Have you ever been called ,"jaek"? Is that considered an insult to you?

You are the first ever 100% Thai/Chinese/native English Speaker I have ever heard of. What on earth is 100% Thai/chinese? Would you consider yourself British or American or wherever the country you are native to?

They do when I trip up culturally or when I don't speak clearly. But it can apply to any foreigner in my experience. There's no hard and fast rule as many don't consider Eastern Asians foreigners, while some do.

Jaek isn't really as much of an insult anymore, I'd say it was about 50-100+ years ago, before we consolidated our military, police, and business power bases and came to own the entire country from top to bottom. In the past, late a night along the klongs, if you even spoke with a Chinese-Thai accent, you'd likely get arrested or killed by then still "Thai-Thai" police. I'd say it's about as derogatory as being called a honkey (for caucasians) in the west. Big deal.

100% Thai Chinese as in completely of Thai Chinese parentage. To get a little more specific, grandparents = 1st gen Chinese immigrants, parents = 1st gen Thai of Chinese descent, myself and my siblings = 1st gen Americans of Thai Chinese descent. So yes, American as well.

Edited February 17, 2005 by Heng

[Heng]

Really? Thai people calling a Chinese Thai, farang??????

that is a real news for me ! I always heard that white skin caucasians called farangs...

Of course that's the common usage. But it's also "foreign" (not to be confused with kon tang chat or tang dao; which are both proper usage) as well.

[kat]

...always risks drifting into nationalism and racism ...got to remember that there are plenty of people living here to whom Thai citizenship  is not accorded because of 'ethnic' factors..and in amongst the tragedies of the tsunami the fact that some Chao Lay people do not 'speak Thai' has been an issue...

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drifting?

She also tells me that to use farang as a pronoun is also disrespectful (compared to using the persons proper name or a proper pronoun for second or third person 'เขา or ท่าน').

From that view I would say that it would show disrespect in the sense that the word does not acknowledge a person as an individual but a member of a general class of people.

But in reference to westerners in general it is common and accepted.  Just as Asian or Oriental are accepted as not insulting in English as a generalization of all things eastern.

Edited for clarity

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Why is it that you hear Thais use the term farang all day long, but when you use it in jest they suddenly look all serious, as if they would never use such a word

Also, I see no end of this in sight as even the school administrators and Thai teachers refer to foreign teachers as Ajarn Farangs There are some kids that would actually call me Ajarn Farang, until I corrected them. Too bad the adults don't learn as easily.

Can you imagine referring to an Asian teacher in the West as "Teacher Oriental" all semester? You would rightly be thrashed and trashed.

Edited February 17, 2005 by kat

[meemiathai]

Too bad the adults don't learn as easily.

I agree

Can someone enlighten me the thai word which can be used to refer to a caucasion without knowing his/her name?

[kat]

How about Teacher? Or better yet, referring to foreigners or caucasians by name, especially if you've been told several times over a 3-month period. I have more than 500 students, and I learned many of their names and the names of other teachers, but only a handful refer to me by name.

[meemiathai]

But it's a different culture ?

I hope they didn't mean to be rude.

[toastwars]

I dislike the term as I feel it is derogatary, similar to gaigin(outsider) in japanese. none of my thai friends call me this and will never mention it in front of me as I have explained to them that I find it a little offensive. All that needs to be asked is "where are you from?" not a big effort. when I hear poeple use this term I politely inform them "pom mia farang, pom peet di ankrit" this usually raises a smile and they don't ever say it again. From my understanding it means stranger

[srisatch]

Yes, if I have heard right, family can use 'man' intimately as a sort of joke with kids.

Ee anything is not good and Ee falang is on a par with 'man'

The normal, polite, word here for wife is palaya and for husband samee

I am not sure but I think the problem Kat has, and I have experienced it, is this hang up on titles...Ajarn and Khru..I was forever being called Khun Ajarn and however much I used my name and used the students names I could not get round it either....and as for the Oriental Teacher...well that is where I came in with my problems with the word farang

What do we call mixed race kids?...Well with a bit of luck, nowadays, we call them by their names...but of course..echoes of half caste, mulatto and quadroon and touch of the tar brush..not that far out of memory......

Some of you must have kids...what has their 'experience' been....??

[mbkudu]

Too bad the adults don't learn as easily.

I agree

Can someone enlighten me the thai word which can be used to refer to a caucasion without knowing his/her name?

The term 'choa dtahng pra tayt' means foreigner, but unfortunately most Thai dictionaries just say farung, kon farung, kon chin, kon gaolee (Korea) ect.

I don't get why everybody gets so offended by 'farung', it's just a word. Believe me Thais call each much more malicious terms than that.

Edited February 17, 2005 by mbkudu

[meemiathai]

I dislike the term as I feel it is derogatary, similar to gaigin(outsider) in japanese. none of my thai friends call me this and will never mention it in front of me as I have explained to them that I find it a little offensive. All that needs to be asked is "where are you from?" not a big effort. when I hear poeple use this term I politely inform them "pom mia farang, pom peet di ankrit" this usually raises a smile and they don't ever say it again. From my understanding it means stranger

I think we can see an obvious difference here where the japanese term "gaigin" means outsider which is quite understandably derogatary whilst the thai word "farang" means only farang(no other word).

Have you ever asked your thai friends if this word is derogatary?

Has anyone here ever had any thai people telling you that the word farang is indeed derogatary?

[meemiathai]

Too bad the adults don't learn as easily.

I agree

Can someone enlighten me the thai word which can be used to refer to a caucasion without knowing his/her name?

The term 'choa dtahng pra tayt' means foreigner, but unfortunately most Thai dictionaries just say farung, kon farung, kon chin, kon gaolee (Korea) ect.

I don't get why everybody gets so offended by 'farung', it's just a word. Believe me Thais call each much more malicious terms than that.

Still the word foreigner differs from caucasion.

Do any people here find being refer to as a caucasion offensive?

[kat]

I've heard mixed explanations, Meemiathai. Some have told me that sometimes it is derogatory, others have acted like it was when I said it in jest, and a couple have told me that it's not meant to be derogatory.

I also have mixed reactions to it, which I mostly keep to myself. However, I do have some basic critieria about it, especially when they could just as easily refer to you by name.

[meemiathai]

I think (I'm no expert in thai culture) a person who is rather educated or comes from a hi-so family would be more capable of using polite words and are more aware of western culture or manners. Whilst less educated people would use whatever words they can as long as they bring out what is in their mind.

For me I tend to concentrate on what really is in their mind rather than the words being used. As some might call you "tilac" but ..... actually think of you as .....

Just my thought

[mbkudu]

It's funny. The times that I have been to Indonesia I always remember being called, 'mister'. A group of kids would always shout, "Hallo mister!" In Thailand it's

usually, "Farang!" I've just gotten used to it because I know that deep down they mean well. It's all a vibe thing. If the person calls me a Farang and I feel a bad vibe from them, then I feel uncomfortable, like I once did in Ko Samui many yeears ago when a group of three Thai men shouted, "Hey Farang man, where you going?", with menacing stares. If the person says Farang with a good vibe and no ill will, then I have absolutely no problem with it.

[meemiathai]

Exactly! Words are just a tool to express oneself and everyone's ability of using a tool differs.

[Jai Dee]

If the person calls me a Farang and I feel a bad vibe from them, then I feel uncomfortable, like I once did in Ko Samui many yeears ago when a group of three Thai men shouted, "Hey Farang man, where you going?", with menacing stares. If the person says Farang with a good vibe and no ill will, then I have absolutely no problem with it.

Body language along with the way the word is said (or shouted in your case) can convey a sh1tload of meaning... in any language.

[Thetyim]

Also, I see no end of this in sight as even the school administrators and Thai teachers refer to foreign teachers as Ajarn Farangs There are some kids that would actually call me Ajarn Farang, until I corrected them.  Too bad the adults don't learn as easily.

Can you imagine referring to an Asian teacher in the West as "Teacher Oriental"  all semester?  You would rightly be thrashed and trashed.

Most Thai teachers cannot speak much English.

Maybe they are trying to call you the "English Teacher" but it comes out as

the "Foreigner Teacher"

[Shola]

As well as being refered to as farang sometimes I've also been refered to as 'Sir' on many an occasion!

(And before anyone makes any smart comments, I DON"T look like a guy!)

[RBO]

I have no problem with the Word 'Farang', as long as the sound of speaking does not makes my ear growing up and gives me a red color in my face...

As well as being refered to as farang sometimes I've also been refered to as 'Sir' on many an occasion!

(And before anyone makes any smart comments, I DON"T look like a guy!)

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'Sir' can also be used with a woman... (Yes Sir, Ma'am Sir!')

[qualtrough]

I believe someone earlier in the thread asked about mem farang and whether or not it is derogatory. I believe that Mem is derived from Madam, in the same way as Mem Sahib was used in India to describe a white woman. In Thailand Mem is a common nickname for girls, particularly those with the fair complexions so esteemed here. So, my answer would be that Mem is not in any way meant as a derogatory term.

As for Farang, I don't find the term offensive unless it is said in an offensive manner or tone. It is just their way of saying whte person. You may not like that they identify people by race, but that is a different issue. I suspect those who feel it is derived from Francais are conrrect, as variations of farang are found in other parts of Asia and the Arab world, e.g. feringhi in Malaysia.

As for the mun issue, potatoes are mun farang, so-called because they resemble a Thai vegetable called mun. Referring to farang as mun farang is a kind of word-play, and whether or not it is meant to be offensive depends on the situation and the intent of the speaker. For example, I have been teased by Thais I know well using mun-farang.

And finally, francais comes out in Thai as farangsate. I have ocassionally heard Thais reverse the syllables and say sate-farang, which means farang garbage. That probably is not so nice!

[DaiMai]

Really? Thai people calling a Chinese Thai, farang??????

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that is a real news for me ! I always heard that white skin caucasians called farangs...

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Asians are usually refered to by the country they come from,

Khon Yipun, Khon Gowlee. Khon Chin etc.

The rest of us westerners are lumped together as Farang,

which I believe comes from Farangset (French).

As a Brit I find that kind of offensive, I am nothing like the French!!

[meemiathai]

I believe someone earlier in the thread asked about mem farang and whether or not it is derogatory. I believe that Mem is derived from Madam, in the same way as Mem Sahib was used in India to describe a white woman. In Thailand Mem is a common nickname for girls, particularly those with the fair complexions so esteemed here. So, my answer would be that Mem is not in any way meant as a derogatory term.

As for Farang, I don't find the term offensive unless it is said in an offensive manner or tone. It is just their way of saying whte person. You may not like that they identify people by race, but that is a different issue. I suspect those who feel it is derived from Francais are conrrect, as variations of farang are found in other parts of Asia and the Arab world, e.g. feringhi in Malaysia.

As for the mun issue, potatoes are mun farang, so-called because they resemble a Thai vegetable called mun. Referring to farang as mun farang is a kind of word-play, and whether or not it is meant to be offensive depends on the situation and the intent of the speaker. For example, I have been teased by Thais I know well using mun-farang.

And finally, francais comes out in Thai as farangsate. I have ocassionally heard Thais reverse the syllables and say sate-farang, which means farang garbage. That probably is not so nice!

You got 100 marks here for this post!

[srisatch]

Ahem!

Sit up at the back there!

Never mind whether your being called 'farang' is neutral, positive or derogatory...what do you think Thai kids in school call luk khreung...and what do they 'mean'?! Do they care?

As I said my youngest daughter is very fair and attracts a lot of attention. She is mostly called a luk farang. When she speaks Thai there is some amazement. When it emerges she speaks English too, I sense a change to a small degree of 'nearly' resentment. Actually there is a general vexation that she speaks so much-she chatters away in both tongues. I suspect they think she 'poot maak, mai dee', too. Funny ain't it

[srisatch]

Is this boring?

Two odd things happened, well odd to me

1. Auntie said..re some general childrens abuse..' Farang cannot lose face'

2. Other Auntie said does not matter whether they are luk farang, 'Children do not have face to lose'

Are either of these generally held opinions?

Links with other thread about face.....maybe I will send this there too!

[PeaceBlondie]

Any term can be derogatory in the mind of the speaker or hearer. I like what Heng said (and I consider him an expert, since he's also a Texan!): farang means foreigner, non-Thai. Much as 'barbarian' meant 'not Greek' in Greek (and since they considered their culture best, 'barbarian' was a putdown). Among Tzotzil Maya, if you're not indigenous, you're 'kashlan' even if you don't speak a word of 'castellano,' the origin of the word.

Said nicely, it means 'foreigner, not member of our tribe/nation.' Said meanly, 'not one of us, a no-good outsider.'