Why are the thai visa agents not in jail ?

[bazza]

if they are going to arrest the farangs who are "guilty" of using the services of thai travel agencies and visa agents, should it not also follow that if the letter of the law is being followed correctly that the same treatment/punishment should be appliedto the thai people who have played a major hand in this whole debacle.

how can you prosecute the farangs but let the thais get away with it scot free. ?

there are various travel agencies in bangkok currently open and opertaing as normal and those very same people working there made alot of money from this business, as did the corrupt and bent cops and immigration officials who were in cahoots with them.

why arent their premesis being closed and their business shut down, surely they are as guilty if not even more so, than the farangs who used their services.they even had big signs saying  VISA EXTENSION which gave it the impression of being legit.

so basically they are saying its OK for the thais to make moneyout of the farangs, but then we can imprison you for the very same crime of  which the thais themselves are guilty.but coz they are thai its OK, and we will let them off.

so thailand the land of smiles is also the land of bribery, corruption ,deceit and double standards.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Baz...IF you apportion the blame equitably, I support your argument, but alas, you don't. Be fair. Do you really believe that those who used the ' services ' were innocent ?

[bazza]

the fact is Dr.pat that these visa agents KNOWINGLY and without a second thought sold these innocent farangs down the river. they took their money,  in the knowledge that what they were selling them was not legal and could land them in trouble.

OK granted there are some farangs who knew what they were doing not legit, and did it anyway. BUT there are many people out there who are innocent victims, and who honestly thought that they were paying for a genuine service. i mean cmon if you walk into a travel agents and see a big sign that says Visa extension , you are hardly going to think its illegal are you. and hundreds of people made a genuine mistake.

the truth is lots of people did not know, whilst the thais visa agents DID know. thats the difference my friend.thats the important point you are missing out on, or else you are choosing to ignore it.

they put greed before principle, all they cared about was money, and so legally are every bit as guilty and so should be subject to the same punishment.

[bazza]

theres something really perverse about this. if your nationality is thai you are innocent and have nothing to worry about, but if you are a farang you are guilty of the same charges. even though the thais were responsible for making the crime possible.

some farangs are indeed guilty, im not disputing that, but there are many who are not , and who had no prior knowledge that what they were doing was wrong.its those people im talking about

if they are going to let the thais off with a slap on the wrist ,do you not think its only fair then that is what should happen to everyone.

[Maigo6]

Bazza, Dr Patpong has already branded all who used the agents as criminals, and even people that get 30 day visas at the border as idiots............i agree with you bazza, the services where there to be used, big signs in shops, the people that where running this service where the ones that really knew the legality of the whole thing, and the immigration police that where involved certainly did, but Dr Patpong likes to blame the guys that walked into the shops to use the advertised service.

As i have said before, it must be great to be perfect.

[Rambutan]

Dr. Patty Pong was propably running such a service himself, of course holding a valid WP & visa.

[MaiChai]

The doctor will extract your post from the thread if you don't look out Rambutan

OK, in simple terms, those using the visa services should have known better, but the services were allowed to operate for a long time, which justified their legitimacy to operate. Punters were lured into beliving their service was legal (and it was in all intents legal until the government tightened up on security).

Those offering the service should be prosecuted, they were breaking the law by illegally using other peoples passports to exit and re-enter the country or forging visa stamps.

Nuff said. Haven't heard any real new news on this for a while?

[Rambutan]

I think the owners of these services won't get any real punishment, as is always the case in Tl. But they might prosecute the one or the other foreigner involved in that business. That of course will be shown on TV big time.

After all it's the fereigner who are responsible for all the problems in LOS isn't it?

[Bud Zumwalt]

???

I would hope anyone with the power to remove replies or ban people from this site is worthy of such power, is objective, can see right from wrong, is not bias against Westerners, can see obvious injustice when right under their nose. One must earn the respect of ones constituents, with fair, unprejudiced remarks, if this web site is to grow and prosper.

Bud is back.

[Heng]

Why won't many of those Thai visa agents end up in jail?   Why is it that many falangs don't need to use these visa services at all?

Survival of the fittest.  Plausable deniability.  Call it what you like.   It's natural selection manifested in courts, brown uniforms, and rather uncomfortable holding tanks.  Maybe you should have saved more money while working your way through college.   Maybe your ancestors weren't very diligent.   Some sea turtles bury their eggs too far from shore, and the offspring all get picked off by seagulls.   Same concept.  

[Indo-Siam]

I do not know this to be a fact, but I will throw out the following as a likely scenario:

The laws being broken were Thai Immigration laws, and the Thai Immigration laws, by statute, only apply to non-Thais.

As far as I know (which is not conclusive) all arrests and detentions of foreigners have been by Immigration Police, and incarceration has been in an IDC.

I also believe that there have been punishments within the Immigration Police Force - sackings and postings to "inactive positions".

So - as best as I can tell, Thais running services were guilty of a misdemeanor crime - and were prosecuted for that crime - and fined.  Farang were also guilty - but of a different class of crime - immigration  crime - during a time of world crackdown and scrutiny on global travel, heightened by an even higher regional state of alertness.

Basically, if jaywalking is a misdemeanor crime, and you get picked up for it, you get a small fine.   But if you are jaywalking, and in apprehending you, you are found to be in violation of immmigration law, you face an entirely different prosecution - at a much more serious level.

It is all about law.   The USA is using this particular type of legal fine-tuning in its detention of prisoners at Guantanamo.  Putting aside any questions about the wisdom or righteousness of the US position, the legal position is tough to argue with because of issues of jurisdiction and legal "standing" in that particular patch of Cuban terrain.

So - if my guess is correct - Thailand is not applying different standards to different parties guilty of the same class of crime.  The two populations are committing different classes of crime.   Everything they have done is probably correct within the context of Thai law.  The only real criticism I would levy would be that Thailand failed to enforce the law adequately for many years - allowing a large population of lawbreakers to accumulate - and is now snatching up all and sundry who have evidence of past crime in their travel documents.  Perhaps there is no statute of limitations on immigration violations in Thailand?

I have posted my theory above.  I would be interested in hearing alternate theories.

Personally, I am not very interested in reading the 1,000th post by anyone that simply expresses visceral outrage - again and again, using different words.  But I am interested in analysis and new information that provides insight into how things work inside Thailand.

And - I welcome counter-arguments that tear down a proposed theory - including ones that I propose - by showing conflicting evidence, or errors in observation or logic.

Cheers!

Indo-Siam

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Erudite and well reasoned. We have both previously posted anti-hysteric messages, largely ignored. Your post is a very worthwhile contribution.

[dropout]

Indo-Siam,

While you are correct that people who use illegal visa services are guilty of wrongdoing or are, at the very least, guilty of exercising poor judgment, asserting that those running the agencies and responsible for bribing immigration officials, forging immigration stamps, etc. (essentially operating criminal enterprises) only committed misdemeanors and are, therefore, less legally culpable is not only factually incorrect, at least pursuant to western legal standards, but really makes you lose all credibility.

Certainly, the real targets of any criminal crackdown should be the people who facilitate criminal activity, i.e. the people who are making money from the criminal activity.  Everybody knows, including the Thai authorities, that if you want to eradicate for example, the drug problem, you go after the drug dealers not the drug users.  In every instance, the criminal penalties are typically harsher for the guys making money from the illegal activity as opposed to the guys partaking of their services.

I agree that many people have only themselves to blame for taking what at first appeared to be a shortcut, without considering the possible consequences, but you have taken this position to an absurd extreme incorrectly arguing that the guys who facilitated the criminal activity are somehow less legally culpable.  By diving off the deep end, you have made yourself an apologist for what appears to date to be uneven enforcement efforts.

[bazza]

well said drop out.

indo-siam i wonder how your argument would stand up if it was brought to court,and proper and fair justice was seen to be done.In other words if there was a fair trial.( i dont think this is possible in thailand, given the fact that their justice system is a joke)

then i very much doubt that the thai actions would be viewed as a misdemeanor.Those who facilitated the " crime" must be held as accountable and responsible, if not even more so, than the people who used their services.

[Indo-Siam]

Dropout and bazza -

You guys are again mixing up the concept of a theory explaining something, and the righteousness of the underlying sitaution.

I do not actually know the Thai law about what crime is committed by someone such a travel agent, who points non-Thais to a document forger somewhere, and charges for that advice.  Or someone who handles the physical flow of passports from other countries.

But - you guys simply seem clueless about how the legal world works.  Have you guys ever appeared in a Thai court?  I have - on August 5, 2003, and I lost the case (labor court - severance pay claim).

Tell me, guys, do you sincerely think that it is a felony in Thailand to assist in the physical movement of a non-Thai passport between point A and point B inside Thailand?  Remember, this is not a Thai document - it is a collection of paper pages issued by a foreign nation.  I'll clue you in - it is unlikely that Thai lawbooks have it as a felony to move papers around inside Thailand. I doubt that there is any law against this.

Next - do you think it is a felony to point foreigners toward a document forger?  Here, I don't know. I have to assume there is some law being broken.  But - probably not a felony.  And probably hard to prosecute, without evidence.

Maybe you guys know something I don't - perhaps some Thai travel office was forging stamps in the back room on Khaosan Road.  I haven't heard about this.

But - the point is that to prosecute people, you have to cite a specific black-and-white law that is being broken - and such laws talk about physical acts and artifacts.  And you have to be able to prove in court that the law was broken - using physical evidence.  Testimony uncorroborated by compelling evidence usually doesn't even make it to court.

It seems clear to me that - however badly your feelings are hurt by this fact - the Thai travel agents or whomever was the farang's initial contacts did not actually break any significant laws, or did so in a way that did not provide clear and compelling evidence to support presecution in court.  

I understand that the Immigration officials who have been directly involved in forgery have been punished fairly severely.

Let me try to explain this another way. If I pull out my USA passport and a set of pens, and I personally forge a Thai exit and entry stamp in my own passport, I am probbaly not breaking any Thai law.  Thailand does not care if I doodle in the travel document issued by a foreign government.  I am breaking no Thai law by forging things into my passport - or even you passport (I probably am breaking US law - which does care about US passports).  Where and when I do break the law is when I try to cross a Thai immigration checkpoint using that forged document.

So -what laws did the Thai travel agents break?  I presume that in many cases, they charged clients for arranging and facilitating the movement of, and the placement of forgeries into, passports - a service that they actually delivered - exactly as promised.  They delivered the service they were contracted to perform.

Did they "guarantee" the passabilty of their work? Probably.  So - is failing to fulfill a service guarantee a felony?

Has any "busted" farang tried to get his money back from a phony visa service, and had the refund refused  I have not heard of this happening, but I don't know.   Most guarantees for services involve maximum liability up to the amount charged for the service.  No service firm offers unlimited liability.

Guys - you both seem to be fairly uninformed participants, with simplistic approaches toward the adult world.  You do not seem to know how law works, or how to analyze a situation from a legal standpoint.  It is probably best for you to not wade too deeply into legal discussions until you gain some more understanding of how legal systems work.

But - even annoying people like you have the right to post on this board - and cheer each other on.

If you want me to applaud - go find the applicable sections of the Thai Civil and Commercial Code that you feel were broken, find out if they are felonies or misdemeanors, and report back to us.  

I really doubt that the Thai legal system will care very much that some guys who call themselves bazza and dropout think that it SHOULD Be a felony to lead poor farang astray.  Thailand probably gives a toss about whether farangs are cheated while obtaining illegal services.  Read that again - you guys think people in Thailand should care about non-Thais being cheated while receiving illegal services.  

#### - I personally don't even care particularly much when illegal drug users get overly diluted cocaine, or pedophiles get their wallets stolen while they are in some underage brothel, or illegal bombmakers get their hands blown off because someone sold them blasting caps beyond their expiration dates.  People who engage in illegal activities should not expect too much support from the legal authorities, when they get cheated while breaking the law.

Steve

Indo-Siam

[parryhandy]

  Some sea turtles bury their eggs too far from shore, and the offspring all get picked off by seagulls.   Same concept.  

heng your not ERIC CANTONA are you ?

[taxexile]

I really doubt that the Thai legal system will care very much that some guys who call themselves bazza and dropout think that it SHOULD Be a felony to lead poor farang astray.  Thailand probably gives a toss about whether farangs are cheated while obtaining illegal services.  Read that again - you guys think people in Thailand should care about non-Thais being cheated while receiving illegal services.  

indo siam,

you are very much mistaken.

if that were really the case then why do the thai authorities spend so much time ,effort and money warning foriegners about the jewellery scam,where falangs are cheated while buying fake or undervalued stones with the connivance of taxi drivers and shop owners, and the guest house credit card scam of a few years back?

it is because these scams have been reported both here and abroad to the detriment of the reputation of thailand .

the reputation of thailand abroad is of paramount importance to the thais.

as news of naive (not criminal) tourists being scammed,jailed and bailed, seeps out then the thai authorities,mindful of the damage to its reputation, will start to warn tourists about visa agents who operate and offer illegal services,under the umbrella of appearing legal.and may even close them down.

these warnings will be widely publicised,as are the jewellery scam warnings.

thailand and its people care VERY much that guests here,whether bona fide tourists or someone on his/her 20th 30 day stay  leave the country with a positive impression.

the crusade against tourist visas, although within the law,will be seen to be a gross over-reaction, and i think will end in an amnesty. this will allow the immigration and the police forces to get back to the necessary job of protecting thailand from terrorists,rather than english teachers and backpackers.

spare us your long winded verbose posts,telling us that the law must be upheld to the n'th degree .save them for the courtroom.

you really need to get out more.

[Eddiee]

the crusade against tourist visas, although within the law,will be seen to be a gross over-reaction, and i think will end in an amnesty. this will allow the immigration and the police forces to get back to the necessary job of protecting thailand from terrorists,rather than english teachers and backpackers.

Taxexile thats the best quote I have read so far on all these forums and I totally agree with it.

[Maigo6]

???

I would hope anyone with the power to remove replies or ban people from this site is worthy of such power, is objective, can see right from wrong, is not bias against Westerners, can see obvious injustice when right under their nose. One must earn the respect of ones constituents, with fair, unprejudiced remarks, if this web site is to grow and prosper.

Bud is back.

Welcome back Bud, you was missed.

[dropout]

Seems like my arguments refuting Indo-Siam's specious legal contentions are now being censored off the board.  I guess the truth is just too scary to allow because certain people with censorship powers have an agenda and have decided they don't like what I have to say.  However, in their own wisdom they have determined that its OK for Indo-Siam to call me a "clown", etc.  It just goes to show that these guys fit right in with the authoritarian nature of most third world regimes.

[Indo-Siam]

Taxexile -

You mention a crusade against tourist visas.  I have never heard of such a crusade.  I have never heard of any changes anywhere concerning issurance of Thai tourist visas.

I have also not yet heard of any changes in 30 day "visa on arrival" entry permits at Thai border crossings.

So - you and I must be talking about different planets.

Eddieee thinks your comments were spot on.  So there must indeed be two parallel universes.  I am not in whatever universe you two live in.  That must be the universe where you guys frequent the www.dodgythaivisa.com discusssion board!

You mention amnesty - so maybe you are talking about criminal immigration violations - Thai characterization, not mine.  But why would you call those "tourist visas" - I don't get it.   A tourist visa, or a VOA, is a legal authorization, obtained the way million of tourists obtain them for entry into Thailand every year.  A forged entry permit stamp in a passport, issued by a dodgy/crooked forgery ring has little in common, and is something that only a small handful of travelers ever have anything to do with.

You seem to feel that obtaining illegal forged documents and using them to cross international borders is a trivial matter, and a common practice.  Well, we probably have different mental images of this scenario - based on our different universes of residence.  The way I figure it, maybe 0.005% of all Thai entry stamps placed into foreign passports at Thai border crossings last year were forgeries.  This percentage of arriving visitors failed to meet Thai legal requiremrents to cross the border - and perhaps 500 (??) have thus far been caught.  Meanwhile,99.995% of all visitors followed normal international border crossing procedures, and had no problems.

Now - you think that the world is going to go into a tizzy about 500 criminals (albeit some of then being naieve) being punished, after 4,999,500 law-abiding travelers had no problem.

Again, that must make sense in your alternate universe.  It is laughable in the universe I live in.

You also write:

if that were really the case then why do the thai authorities spend so much time ,effort and money warning foriegners about the jewellery scam,where falangs are cheated while buying fake or undervalued stones

The answer is because tourists who attempt to buy jewelry are paying for what is routinely a legal service or good.  If they are cheated, that is bad.

If these same tourists try to buy forged immigration papers, and use them at a Thai border, they are breaking the law.  Thailand cares about their law-breaking, and is not too concerned about the fact that some Thais supported the process by which the foreigners pursued a criminal undertaking.   The Thias do get punished - arrested and fined.  But they are evidently not considered a big threat to Thailand's well-being.  This is not my personal endorsement of them - this is simply the outcome as we all seem to see it.

I guess that I do not suffer fools gladly.  That's probably somehwat of a weakness.  Your weakness seems to be assigning meanings to words, such as calling increased prosecution of users of forged immigration documents a "crusade against tourist visas".

Steve

Indo-Siam

[Maigo6]

HaHa, i love it.

Cheers

[taxexile]

indo siam

you are being unnecessarily pedantic.

would you think it right to punish someone for using a forged banknote that they had unknowingly received in change the day before.

my point is that in many cases the visa services were sold as legitimate services purporting to be within the law.they were advertised in the press,articles were written about these services in the press and immigration officers themselves offered the service.they were cheated just as the jewellery scam customers were cheated.

the jewellery scam victims were attracted by greed,the visa scam customers were attracted by the convenience offered.

if anything,the visa victims should be helped more than the jewellery victims.

all (most) thought the services were legal and above board,because they were promoted with an air of authenticity and with the tacit knowledge of the authorities.

we do not inhabit separate universes,but we certainly see our fellow inhabitants in different lights.