What's Wrong With Thaivisa.com And Many Of Its Forumers?

[barky]

I think 99% of the bitterness comes from language issues. Being surrounded day after day by people speaking a language he cannot understand, the average westerner will become introvert, suspicious, lacking in self confidence and ultimately bitter. Sure, other things come into the mix (bad experiences with people etc), but I believe this to be the main reason for the average moaning expat. And the solution is easy- learn the dam_n language! I find that the more Thai someone understands the happier they are here, and it makes perfect sense.

I agree Will, BUT virtually all my bad experiences here had absolutely NOTHING to do with language barrier (even though my Thai skills are elementary/low pre-intermediate).

They have been cases where the spoken word was NOT a factor.

[chiang mai]

I think it's important to consider the source of the comments. Strip out comments from posters who don't live in Thailand and perhaps also those from people who have lived here for less than two years. Maybe also disregard comments from much of the under 50's group since by virtue of their age they are unlikely to be long term permanent residents. What's left is a much smaller percentage of the farang population here in Thailand who for the most part should be qualified to render fair and objective opinions on the country. But also important to factor in the farang "sense of humor" aspect which for many foreign cultures can be difficult to understand. Finally, subtract a further 10% of comments attributable to alcohol induced ramblings and I think you'll find that percentage of posts that discuss Thailand and its culture capably is really quiet small.

[bonobo]

My husband is Thai, he has many critical things to say of Thailand and its way of doing things. He doesn't mind foreigners making the same criticisms either.

What he finds appalling, as do I, is the overt racism from many members who seem to think that because they are Western they are somehow superior or more intelligent. He is deeply offended by the bigots who insist on referring to Thais in racist terms and astonished that Thai women will stay with men who profess such deep and abiding contempt for their country and their people.

There is nothing wrong with criticism. There is something wrong with people who insist on referring to Thai people as monkeys, or all Thai women as whores or all Thai men as abusive lazy drunkards.

Imagine if a Thai person came to your country and made the same sweeping derogatory generalizations.

Hard to, isn't it? Mainly because most Thais tend to have better manners.

I think this is the key here.  It is when a sense of superiority sets in that things go bad.

But it is hard to keep from feeling superior when you look at things from your cultural perspective.  It takes an active effort to keep things on an even keel.

I will flatly state that Thais are, on the whole, horrible drivers.  Not Thai people, per se.  THere is no genetic disability which makes Thais incapable to driving.  But the culture here is not condusive to safe, cooperative driving.  And I hold my opinion based on the number of deaths on the road I regularly witness, and the unneeded traffic delays inconsiderate driving causes.

However, that does not make me nor my culture superior to Thais. That is only one action, one aspect. 

I recently took a Thai friend to visit my mother in the US.  I was there on business, and I took a side-trip, and my friend came with me.  My mother had been living with my sister and her family, but due to many reasons, my sister's family couldn't take it any more, and we  moved my mother to a retirement home nearby.

We took my mother to dinner, and then back to her new place.  When we left, my friend had tears in her eyes.  I asked her what was wrong, and she was appalled that my mother was living alone, that my sister had "kicked her out."  She couldn't understand how anyone would force an 82-year old to leave their house and be put up in a retirment home, no matter how nice it was.

So in a microcosm of comparisons here, Thais don't drive safely and Americans hate their parents. Of course that is not true, but that can be inferred by someone from the other culture, and that can make someone feel superior to someone from that other culture.

Recognizing weaknessed in another society is normal and rational.  But we must fight to keep from inferring superiority as a culture or as an individual based on random observations (or based on anything, for that matter.)

[livinthailandos]

As for the OP, I read it, sorry but way to long. As for thaivisa, it has a few good highlights if your looking for information though or just want to know whats going on in something particular. Otherwise not much else. Thaivisa can be made up of a few types only. No need for me to post them since its pretty self aware already. I tend to think good and bad experiences change people here to. I am lucky enough that my thai wife helped me through many areas. Thailand should never become farangland but thailand as a whole should see about making progress thought not for benefit of foreigners but for the country itself and its people. Thailand has made change but not by government so much, but more by business people. I'd never say I love thailand I say I thank thailand for helping me grow and change. As like any other country thailand has its strenghts and weakness, the only thing about thailand that makes me always unsure is the political instability more than anything else. I would say one last thing, if you are living here you really must make an effort to at least try to learn the language.

[doggie888888]

Criticism is not always "negative." It is interesting that so many people assume this from the start. Criticism is often "positive criticism."

I wish more posters would take the time to grasp this concept as I think it might diminish the "Love Thailand or Leave it Responses" that are frequent here.......it gets to be like a mud slinging match.

If you say anything "negative" about Thailand you are tagged as "poor" or "depressed" or "angry" or "crazy," or "Thailand hater," etc., etc. Nobody tags you as "genuinely concerned about the state of affairs."

Positive criticism is meant to generate something positive, not something negative.

Agreed!

I think that some foreign posters here a adopt a defensiveness about Thais and Thailand for one or both of two main reasons.

These are:

a. psychological (formed roots in/connections with Thailand for a variety of reasons & see a need to make this "acceptable" to themselves and/or others; a number of varieties and combinations thereof)

b. financial (involved in businesses which they fear will suffer from frank discussion of the shortcomings of Thais and Thailand

let me add:

c. people who simply accept that they are living as guests in a foreign country and accept (tolerate) the cultural differences as one would as polite guests towards their hosts

d. people who simply have not experienced the level of negativity of living here as seem to be experienced by some posters apparently on a daily basis.

e. people who keep a sense of perspective about the "negatives" and understanding many of these are part and parcel of living in a foreign culture with language/cultural barriers.

by the way I am not looking at Thailand through rose tinted glasses, as I acknowledge there are difficulties/problems/issues...but hey, when and if these difficulties affect my enjoyment of life here, I know where the airport is. For me, the positives still outweigh the negatives and I am happy to be here, albeit a few minor complains here and there. My enjoyment has increased since I stopped mixing with NEGATIVE farangs and try to meet more Thais and other open and positive-minded farangs.

[Lancelot]

My husband is Thai, he has many critical things to say of Thailand and its way of doing things. He doesn't mind foreigners making the same criticisms either.

What he finds appalling, as do I, is the overt racism from many members who seem to think that because they are Western they are somehow superior or more intelligent. He is deeply offended by the bigots who insist on referring to Thais in racist terms and astonished that Thai women will stay with men who profess such deep and abiding contempt for their country and their people.

There is nothing wrong with criticism. There is something wrong with people who insist on referring to Thai people as monkeys, or all Thai women as whores or all Thai men as abusive lazy drunkards.

Imagine if a Thai person came to your country and made the same sweeping derogatory generalizations.

Hard to, isn't it? Mainly because most Thais tend to have better manners.

I think this is the key here.  It is when a sense of superiority sets in that things go bad.

But it is hard to keep from feeling superior when you look at things from your cultural perspective.  It takes an active effort to keep things on an even keel.

I will flatly state that Thais are, on the whole, horrible drivers.  Not Thai people, per se.  THere is no genetic disability which makes Thais incapable to driving.  But the culture here is not condusive to safe, cooperative driving.  And I hold my opinion based on the number of deaths on the road I regularly witness, and the unneeded traffic delays inconsiderate driving causes.

However, that does not make me nor my culture superior to Thais. That is only one action, one aspect. 

I recently took a Thai friend to visit my mother in the US.  I was there on business, and I took a side-trip, and my friend came with me.  My mother had been living with my sister and her family, but due to many reasons, my sister's family couldn't take it any more, and we  moved my mother to a retirement home nearby.

We took my mother to dinner, and then back to her new place.  When we left, my friend had tears in her eyes.  I asked her what was wrong, and she was appalled that my mother was living alone, that my sister had "kicked her out."  She couldn't understand how anyone would force an 82-year old to leave their house and be put up in a retirment home, no matter how nice it was.

So in a microcosm of comparisons here, Thais don't drive safely and Americans hate their parents. Of course that is not true, but that can be inferred by someone from the other culture, and that can make someone feel superior to someone from that other culture.

Recognizing weaknessed in another society is normal and rational.  But we must fight to keep from inferring superiority as a culture or as an individual based on random observations (or based on anything, for that matter.)

Good posts from Sbk and Bonobo.

I think many problems come from people of different classes mixing together with different expectations from the relationship. I also see many westerners behaving badly in Thailand. Having said that, poor behaviour isn't limited only to foreigners.

[Birdman]

Criticism is not always "negative." It is interesting that so many people assume this from the start. Criticism is often "positive criticism."

I wish more posters would take the time to grasp this concept as I think it might diminish the "Love Thailand or Leave it Responses" that are frequent here.......it gets to be like a mud slinging match.

If you say anything "negative" about Thailand you are tagged as "poor" or "depressed" or "angry" or "crazy," or "Thailand hater," etc., etc. Nobody tags you as "genuinely concerned about the state of affairs."

Positive criticism is meant to generate something positive, not something negative.

Agreed!

I think that some foreign posters here a adopt a defensiveness about Thais and Thailand for one or both of two main reasons.

These are:

a. psychological (formed roots in/connections with Thailand for a variety of reasons & see a need to make this "acceptable" to themselves and/or others; a number of varieties and combinations thereof)

b. financial (involved in businesses which they fear will suffer from frank discussion of the shortcomings of Thais and Thailand

let me add:

c. people who simply accept that they are living as guests in a foreign country and accept (tolerate) the cultural differences as one would as polite guests towards their hosts

d. people who simply have not experienced the level of negativity of living here as seem to be experienced by some posters apparently on a daily basis.

e. people who keep a sense of perspective about the "negatives" and understanding many of these are part and parcel of living in a foreign culture with language/cultural barriers.

by the way I am not looking at Thailand through rose tinted glasses, as I acknowledge there are difficulties/problems/issues...but hey, when and if these difficulties affect my enjoyment of life here, I know where the airport is. For me, the positives still outweigh the negatives and I am happy to be here, albeit a few minor complains here and there. My enjoyment has increased since I stopped mixing with NEGATIVE farangs and try to meet more Thais and other open and positive-minded farangs.

nice comment, doggie

Edited July 1, 2009 by Birdman

[TaoNow]

QUOTE (sbk @ 2009-07-01 07:25:10)

"There is nothing wrong with criticism. There is something wrong with people who insist on referring to Thai people as monkeys, or all Thai women as whores or all Thai men as abusive lazy drunkards. Imagine if a Thai person came to your country and made the same sweeping derogatory generalizations."

You are absolutely right, SBK. There should be no place on the TV forum for people who want to post these slurs. But you are a moderator, so ban them. Just the other day, someone referred to Thais as "simians coming down from their tree" -- ban him. He knows the rules, but was trying to slip one by you by not using the term "monkey". No warning needed. Ban them post-haste. Zero tolerance.

[mommysboy]

It probably reflects the age of the people complaining, and may be justified when one considers that there is rather a lot to complain about. Certainly as I've got older (48) I've ditched a lot of youthful illusions and concentrated more on actual and solid performance, and I don't experience much of it in Thailand.

I reckon a lot of expats miss home really and they would do better to work on their homesickness rather than moan about Thailand, with the proviso again that there is honestly a fair bit to moan about.

I think people are just letting off steam though.

It's worth noting too that most of the world's intractable problems have been caused by those who are inappropriately young, or are overly positive, and further that criticising those that criticise is a sort of moan in itself albeit by proxy .

Good post on a difficult subject.

[norwayeagle]

i really just spent 40 minutes reading the whole of this and my opinion is...

2 many old farangs!

But us young ones are coming through and don't have the same issues as the pension pot moaning oldies.

i'm in my 30's and my mates of similar age who are here have never had any of the cr@p that is written on here........

.... ..... .well,what u mean by being old farangs.most younger people than me are much "older"( or ,and,much younger in words and behaviour) and am 51. If u see me u will think am not a day over 40.I still run 10km in under 40 min,take over 100 push ups with no problm,( have you heard about the Jante law ? if so dont come with that kind of mentality )and am only keeping myself in shape,(not as "fanatic) about training as i used 2 be.I never have and never will go to prostitutes to get a woman ( dont want to treat a woman like that)and guess what,my brain is sharper than it ever was.So i dont think u can use age 2 define all "crap" people here (or anywhere)say (or do in life 4 that matter).Some has a up and going Brain when they are 18 and others will no brain have whatever age. or? what 40 min to read this 5 pages.hehe you have still a looot to learn and sooo do i !!,,,,,,,,,,Ps:and when it comes 2 my shape am faaar over average at my age,but that does not meen am sitting on my pedestal looking down.and about buying sex,that just popped out. Read and learn ( you should allready have learned alot since u r in the 30s)and and and and aaaaaaa stop. Eeeee.I really hope just 1 understand me then am satisfied (hopefuly ur the 1). double PS: 2 understand this u just have to be "smart" if not....well

At 51 you are a pension pot moaning oldie?

lucky for you that you have managed to retire early keep away from the bar scene and don't go with prositutes but at 51 i wouldn't class that as an oldie. For me to use the word pension this indicates someone who is probably older than 51 as they are living off a pension.

So really aside from you getting a bit muddled about what old is you agree with me. You are obviously trying not to but as you keep away from prosititutes keep yourself fit and active you have a nice life here.

This is what i was hinting at the moaners on here have a stereotypical life here

retirement age

join bar scene

fall for poor young girl

lose money

wonder why

everything is rubbish

Yeah,,, ..... .Now i understand.Guess am getting abit "slow"

[WaiWai]

JR Texas:

Criticism is not always "negative." It is interesting that so many people assume this from the start. Criticism is often "positive criticism."

I wish more posters would take the time to grasp this concept as I think it might diminish the "Love Thailand or Leave it Responses" that are frequent here.......it gets to be like a mud slinging match.

If you say anything "negative" about Thailand you are tagged as "poor" or "depressed" or "angry" or "crazy," or "Thailand hater," etc., etc. Nobody tags you as "genuinely concerned about the state of affairs."

Positive criticism is meant to generate something positive, not something negative.

Wai Wai:

Agreed!

I think that some foreign posters here a adopt a defensiveness about Thais and Thailand for one or both of two main reasons.

These are:

a. psychological (formed roots in/connections with Thailand for a variety of reasons & see a need to make this "acceptable" to themselves and/or others; a number of varieties and combinations thereof)

b. financial (involved in businesses which they fear will suffer from frank discussion of the shortcomings of Thais and Thailand

Doggie:

let me add:

c. people who simply accept that they are living as guests in a foreign country and accept (tolerate) the cultural differences as one would as polite guests towards their hosts

d. people who simply have not experienced the level of negativity of living here as seem to be experienced by some posters apparently on a daily basis.

e. people who keep a sense of perspective about the "negatives" and understanding many of these are part and parcel of living in a foreign culture with language/cultural barriers.

by the way I am not looking at Thailand through rose tinted glasses, as I acknowledge there are difficulties/problems/issues...but hey, when and if these difficulties affect my enjoyment of life here, I know where the airport is. For me, the positives still outweigh the negatives and I am happy to be here, albeit a few minor complains here and there. My enjoyment has increased since I stopped mixing with NEGATIVE farangs and try to meet more Thais and other open and positive-minded farangs.

Doggie: I, too, know where the airport is. I, too, would not be here if positives did not outweigh negatives (though if some foreigners are negative I can accept that as their point of view and am interested in knowing why).

However, that's not at all the point I wanted to make. I was talking about what I perceive to be the two primary causes of defensiveness regarding Thais and Thailand which can be observed on this forum. (There are, no doubt, other possible causes.)

Also, I do agree with the poster who wrote that overly positive people can be the source of much trouble. A critical eye (perspective & balance) is always of value. People with such an eye will not be defensive ...

Edited July 1, 2009 by WaiWai

[longstebe]

What are we moaning about here.

Are we moaning about people moaning.

[ozzieovaseas]

Well brought up Eek.

The guy has some valid points.There doesnt seem to be very many posting about "why Thailand is so much better than home" or how "life is much better in LOS"

I think we're all guilty on commenting about matters that fire us us up,such as corruption ect, and have the occasional whinge but we all so often forget all the good aspects of living here.I for one hope to start a few postitive threads in the future.

Having said that, the one thing that bugs me about farangs here is its impossible to approach anyone or be friendly,the typical long stay farang will quickly display unmistakable body language of "P_ss off"...BUT....

if theres something to whinge about or pass judgement about a thai or a bad situation then its floodgates open "YAHOO" chatty chat time.

Try it sometime, if you think someone is unapproachable or displays that behaviour..go up to them and whinge about something Thai, you will be their best mate for life!! (not that yoou would want to be!)...All very sad!!

Maybe a few postings to the tune of "attitude of gratitude" are in order.

[hhgz]

"The OP has a valid argument."

His argument might be valid, but he certainly is not Thai.

[chiang mai]

It probably reflects the age of the people complaining, and may be justified when one considers that there is rather a lot to complain about. Certainly as I've got older (48) I've ditched a lot of youthful illusions and concentrated more on actual and solid performance, and I don't experience much of it in Thailand.

I reckon a lot of expats miss home really and they would do better to work on their homesickness rather than moan about Thailand, with the proviso again that there is honestly a fair bit to moan about.

I think people are just letting off steam though.

It's worth noting too that most of the world's intractable problems have been caused by those who are inappropriately young, or are overly positive, and further that criticising those that criticise is a sort of moan in itself albeit by proxy .

Good post on a difficult subject.

That was actually a very good post MB, well done, there's hope for you yet!

Separately though, I was sorry to learn from another thread that your Aunt might be a Katoey!

[eek]

Well brought up Eek.

The guy has some valid points.There doesnt seem to be very many posting about "why Thailand is so much better than home" or how "life is much better in LOS"

I think we're all guilty on commenting about matters that fire us us up,such as corruption ect, and have the occasional whinge but we all so often forget all the good aspects of living here.I for one hope to start a few postitive threads in the future.

Having said that, the one thing that bugs me about farangs here is its impossible to approach anyone or be friendly,the typical long stay farang will quickly display unmistakable body language of "P_ss off"...BUT....

if theres something to whinge about or pass judgement about a thai or a bad situation then its floodgates open "YAHOO" chatty chat time.

Try it sometime, if you think someone is unapproachable or displays that behaviour..go up to them and whinge about something Thai, you will be their best mate for life!! (not that yoou would want to be!)...All very sad!!

Maybe a few postings to the tune of "attitude of gratitude" are in order.

I have experienced this for sure. Sometimes its very embarrassing too. Such as the time i had a casual conversation in the hospital with another expact surrounded mainly by Thai. He talked so openly and quite loudly about everything he didnt like. He also talked about not wanting to eat that "Thai crap". I thought to myself, do you actually think none of these people understand what you are saying? Or, do you just not care? Its not even particularly what people dislike or want to complain about, its how they go about it. There is such a thing as discussing something, even something you dont like, with a bit of class and discretion.

I agree that listening to those who see Thailand with only rose tinted specs can be quite annoying too...but, quite honestly Id rather listen to that than the truly boring excessive complainers. Particularly those "experts" who have lived here for x amount of years, yet cannot speak Thai (or speak only some bare minimum fractured Thai), do not have any real Thai friends or interactions with Thai people, and have no particular desire to understand any of the culture. Many of those guys HAVE to ask you how long you have been here in order to weigh up if you will know more or less than them. As soon as they judge that you havent lived here long enough they rant and rave about how much they know. Sad thing is, that even say 10 years on, so many seem to know nothing much at all.

But, that isnt meant as a bash. I dont wish to pull down the topic into some kind of competition about who knows more about Thailand etc. Frankly I DO believe that quoted text was written by a well educated Thai, but as others have pointed out, Thai or not, it doesnt change the validity of the points made. It would also seem that Thai like to discuss "us" in there own forums too, but seeing as my ability to read Thai is so poor (and even those words i can read, many i would have to look up to understand what it actually means anyway!), so its impossible for me to read. Apparently they do their own fair amount of Western bashing, probably due to a lack of understanding and possibly a lack of good interactions.

Anyway..I just thought it was worth posting as could be food for thought.

[elibangkok]

Just finished reading (most of) the previous 6 pages of posts. . .

I believe the core of the issue is Thai culture does no handle criticism well. You are not meant to point out what others are doing wrong.

This is obviously quite different from Western culture.

I know when I complain about certain aspects of life in Thailand, it is with the ultimate goal of improvement. In most cases, change only comes with discussion of issues and problems. No discussion= no progress.

I also believe we cannot ignore the cultural differences between Thailand and the West. Cultures evolve differently based on too many factors to list. We also should not be afraid to make value judgements in many cases regarding those cultures.

On some issues, there is not a better or worse judgement to be made (i.e. food or form of greeting), but in some cases there are distinctly better and worse evolutions which have occurred. One example is the higher level of performance in math of some Asian countries in comparison to Western countries, or athletic achievement in specific sports by different countries.

Another is the cultivated way of rejecting any criticism, whether constructive or otherwise.

So, what I would say to the Thai readers of this forum, as well as the author of the linked post, is to always consider the other persons intent and goal before judging their statement. While it is most certainly true there are many posters who complain just to complain, many of us complain to improve both our situation and that of Thailand as a whole.

Don't lose out on the possibilty of self improvement because the statement is being made by a Westerner.

[F1fanatic]

My husband is Thai, he has many critical things to say of Thailand and its way of doing things. He doesn't mind foreigners making the same criticisms either.

What he finds appalling, as do I, is the overt racism from many members who seem to think that because they are Western they are somehow superior or more intelligent. He is deeply offended by the bigots who insist on referring to Thais in racist terms and astonished that Thai women will stay with men who profess such deep and abiding contempt for their country and their people.

There is nothing wrong with criticism. There is something wrong with people who insist on referring to Thai people as monkeys, or all Thai women as whores or all Thai men as abusive lazy drunkards.

Imagine if a Thai person came to your country and made the same sweeping derogatory generalizations.

Hard to, isn't it? Mainly because most Thais tend to have better manners.

You miss the point that the vast majority of Westerners don't arrive here thinking "that because they are Western they are somehow superior or more intelligent". Its something they come to believe after living here a while.

I hasten to add that I'm not saying they're right - I've just heard the same rants so often from so many different people that I understand their problems! Funnily enough, many are involved in realtionships with Thais, but somehow don't feel embarrassed to broadcast their un-PC views, even when their Thai partner is with them! When this happens, I feel deeply embarrassed and desperately try to make a joke of it or change the conversation, particularly when the Thai partner understands enough English to understand what is going on. The look on their face is enough to tell anyone with any consideration that the feelings being aired are unacceptable!

The fact that (as you say), so many Thai women stay with men who unashamedly "profess such deep and abiding contempt for their country and their people", I too find deeply disturbing. There is clearly something v wrong here and it is hard to understand why they would stay with someone who is so obviously contemptous of them and their people.

[Bakeman]

I have a very open mind and accept the cultural diversity where ever I may be but I can tell from reading TV that there are too many negative people on the chat. I have been to Thailand 8 times and now own a business. I respect everyone who earns this respect. I almost stopped reading and participating on TV due to all of the negative comments. I have also found that most of the advice in these columns is B.S.. I have opened the impossible TV bank accounts in minutes and have found the Land of smiles no different then any other society. You have a mixture of good and bad people but it will always depend on your own internal attitude to accept, forgive and decide to be happy. I am from America but love Thailand just as much if not more at times. I also will not let someone else tell me how horrible Thailand is because everyone's approach to life is different. I CHOOSE to enjoy Thailand and its people and will one day retire there.

[Misplaced]

My husband is Thai, he has many critical things to say of Thailand and its way of doing things. He doesn't mind foreigners making the same criticisms either.

What he finds appalling, as do I, is the overt racism from many members who seem to think that because they are Western they are somehow superior or more intelligent. He is deeply offended by the bigots who insist on referring to Thais in racist terms and astonished that Thai women will stay with men who profess such deep and abiding contempt for their country and their people.

There is nothing wrong with criticism.There is something wrong with people who insist on referring to Thai people as monkeys, or all Thai women as whores or all Thai men as abusive lazy drunkards

Imagine if a Thai person came to your country and made the same sweeping derogatory generalizations.

Hard to, isn't it? Mainly because most Thais tend to have better manners.

I think this is the key here.  It is when a sense of superiority sets in that things go bad.

But it is hard to keep from feeling superior when you look at things from your cultural perspective.  It takes an active effort to keep things on an even keel.

I will flatly state that Thais are, on the whole, horrible drivers.  Not Thai people, per se.  THere is no genetic disability which makes Thais incapable to driving.  But the culture here is not condusive to safe, cooperative driving.  And I hold my opinion based on the number of deaths on the road I regularly witness, and the unneeded traffic delays inconsiderate driving causes.

However, that does not make me nor my culture superior to Thais. That is only one action, one aspect. 

I recently took a Thai friend to visit my mother in the US.  I was there on business, and I took a side-trip, and my friend came with me.  My mother had been living with my sister and her family, but due to many reasons, my sister's family couldn't take it any more, and we  moved my mother to a retirement home nearby.

We took my mother to dinner, and then back to her new place.  When we left, my friend had tears in her eyes.  I asked her what was wrong, and she was appalled that my mother was living alone, that my sister had "kicked her out."  She couldn't understand how anyone would force an 82-year old to leave their house and be put up in a retirment home, no matter how nice it was.

So in a microcosm of comparisons here, Thais don't drive safely and Americans hate their parents. Of course that is not true, but that can be inferred by someone from the other culture, and that can make someone feel superior to someone from that other culture.

Recognizing weaknessed in another society is normal and rational.  But we must fight to keep from inferring superiority as a culture or as an individual based on random observations (or based on anything, for that matter.)

Good posts from Sbk and Bonobo.

I think many problems come from people of different classes mixing together with different expectations from the relationship. I also see many westerners behaving badly in Thailand. Having said that, poor behaviour isn't limited only to foreigners.

I thought SBK & Bonobo was right on with their comments.

The problem with MANY posters on TV is the lack of understanding of Thai cultures/heritage. If it's differ than that of their own, it's considered to be wrong or stupid (saving face, sinsod and family financial aid comes to mind). Most people think they understand but really have no idea.

[F1fanatic]

I have a very open mind and accept the cultural diversity where ever I may be but I can tell from reading TV that there are too many negative people on the chat. I have been to Thailand 8 times and now own a business. I respect everyone who earns this respect. I almost stopped reading and participating on TV due to all of the negative comments. I have also found that most of the advice in these columns is B.S.. I have opened the impossible TV bank accounts in minutes and have found the Land of smiles no different then any other society. You have a mixture of good and bad people but it will always depend on your own internal attitude to accept, forgive and decide to be happy. I am from America but love Thailand just as much if not more at times. I also will not let someone else tell me how horrible Thailand is because everyone's approach to life is different. I CHOOSE to enjoy Thailand and its people and will one day retire there.

I too came to Thailand more than 8 times on holiday before deciding to retire here. Similarly, I opened a bank account with few problems (although one bank branch told me "cannot do" shortly before another branch of the same bank opened an account with no problems!).

Whilst on holiday I found the 'Land of Smiles' no different from any other society, but a lot friendlier. Living here is an entirely different kettle of fish! Like everyone else, one learns the hard way that not everything is as it appears on the surface.

Many things are far better here - the scenery, climate and slower pace of life are wonderful. Some people find these (and other!) advantages far out-weigh the down side. Others can't stand the other side of living here, and move back home fairly quickly.

Negative posters may be disillusioned enough that they are about to move back home, but many others love living here but are trying to put across the point that not everything is wonderful!!

[shoewah]

What the OP misses is that healthy happy well adjusted adults don't spend much time posting online.

[Datsun240Z]

First of all: Not every Thai is wrong, I don't want to throw every Thai over the same fence.

Thais are lovely, warm and kind people who have a lack ( not all!! ) of education. Also they strongly believe in their own country, without even putting themselves open nor even listen to the input or meaning from other countries/people. They want us to have respect and everything? That's fine, then also show some respect towards us. We are not only good for $$$.

Like for instance Mike here ( MJP ) been married 7 years to his ex-wife, got a baby, and than suddenly the wife runs of with some Thai bloke. While Mike is a really good guy, worked his ass of in his ýounger years, found happiness and this happens to him. And it's not only him, it happens everywhere in Thailand. This says something about Thai people. So they should not complain, when we complain, because we are not doing it for no reason, if we where happy, we would talk happy.

So coming back to the OP's Thai written complain about the people on TV: We do love Thailand, but we complain because we are treathed unfair and we schould not deserve this. If you Thai people not change attitude, we certainly would not do so either.

[oldsparrow]

First of all: Not every Thai is wrong, I don't want to throw every Thai over the same fence. Thais are lovely, warm and kind people who have a lack ( not all!! ) of education. Also they strongly believe in their own country, without even putting themselves open nor even listen to the input or meaning from other countries/people. They want us to have respect and everything? That's fine, then also show some respect towards us. We are not only good for $$$. Like for instance Mike here ( MJP ) been married 7 years to his ex-wife, got a baby, and than suddenly the wife runs of with some Thai bloke. While Mike is a really good guy, worked his ass of in his ýounger years, found happiness and this happens to him. And it's not only him, it happens everywhere in Thailand. This says something about Thai people. So they should not complain, when we complain, because we are not doing it for no reason, if we where happy, we would talk happy. So coming back to the OP's Thai written complain about the people on TV: We do love Thailand, but we complain because we are treathed unfair and we schould not deserve this. If you Thai people not change attitude, we certainly would not do so either.

I heard that many Thai wives ran off good Thai husband too.

However, attitude change can be in many ways including immigration policy. That would be bad for all. That Thai writer can be in influential circle and who know that problematic regulation never came from the perceived lost of nation pride.

For instance the recent expression of Thai parter buying the land using foreigner money. Absolute no sense to regulate this kind of thing if the gereral inter marriage situation is natural. But as many advertise of sense of ripping off or business like partner (for whatever neccessity). Some may even think that limited such activity is even good for the protection of ex-pat get ripping off. Of course, policy makers have no problem at all if poor Thai can't use foreign partner's money or foreigner have to declare more asset to stay.

Indeed, most Thais who don't marry foreigners for the living are not happy with this kind of relation. From personal experience I can clarify ie. My sister was the TA at U. of London (IC) when she was her PhD. candicate. Of course the immigration officers has to do his duty proper interview this and that, check this and that, "Do you already have air ticket out of UK?" "Can you show hotel book document in Austria?" No problem at all. It's their countries, they sincerely had to protect UK from Thai hooker suspect. However, it gave different consideration when I heard a Brit proudly present in a pub in BKK that by his money he can get any girl in the place at no time.

Yes, we don't feed our poor properly but when it's generalisation of the THAIS are this, the THAIS do that in THAILAND. It's annoying.

Again, from information of Mike's situation, I agree indeed, THAT WOMAN betrays him. And it's of course very bad that many other guys shar the same fate.

[sibeymai]

The OP is, I believe, genuinely expressing the views of many Thais. Most of us will never hear these opinions expressed to our faces.

I believe there is a "hard core" of farangs who hate the world, not only Thailand. After all, these types are in Thailand because they hate their home countries also. If they were in any other country they would hate it similarly. These farangs complain about everything. They tend to find and socialise with others like themselves and feed off each other's resentments. It's possible to walk into a bar and feel this atmosphere almost immediately. These people criticise because they have nothing better to do and all the time in the world to do it. They do not expect any positive result from their criticism and if one were to occur would concentrate their focus on finding another trivial criticism to concern themselves with.

Another group of farangs criticise with the desire to see improvements. But the large extent of things open to criticism and the apparent lack of any progress can lead to frustration for these initially well meaning farangs and see them over time becoming more like the hard core group described above. Long term farangs tend to become more balanced in their views accepting that there are certain limitations to what can be achieved. After all, to make an improvement you need a means to create understanding and participation. Few farangs in Thailand have the connections necessary to achieve this which does tend to make criticisms somewhat futile. The happy medium is to concern yourself with your immediate interactions and surroundings and forget the bigger picture over which farangs have little or no influence.

Thais don't help by sending mixed messages. For example, Suwarnabhumi Airport, touted as the hub of SE Asia. Just about any farang who has traveled the region knows it is nowhere near this claim and is unlikely to ever become the region's hub. It may have become the region's hub if it was done properly from the beginning but that would have required expertise from farangs and detracted from the achievements of Thais. The mixed message is that Thais want to be world class (like some of its neighbours have become) but Thais don't want anyone to help and even if Thais don't achieve world class Thais are told they are world class anyway. So any criticism coming from farangs, justified or not, is all lies designed to discredit Thais and make them loose face. Remarkably, the MRT/BTS were done with German expertise and are very well done projects which do appear to be world class. The BTS had the added motivation of being linked to the monarchy. Germans have a reputation for doing things right first and worrying about social niceties second so it would appear that when the issues of face and criticism are overruled by purpose then excellent results are possible. I'd guess not too many lasting friendships were made between the farangs and Thais on these projects, but the job got done.

Another group of farangs just adopt the total non-confrontationalist attitude using the excuse that they are only visitors to Thailand. This may smooth their daily existence and make them feel more of a part of Thai culture. However, I feel this justification is erroneous. Should a farang not impart any of their knowledge or culture in Thailand ? Is this the norm in any other country which has immigrants ? Surely in almost any Thai university you will find professors with knowledge almost entirely obtained outside Thailand. Should Thais of Indian descent have never opened Indian cuisine restaurants ? Should a farang always refrain from criticism because it may embarrass or cause a Thai to loose face ? I think not. Farangs do need to present criticism in a way that it will be well received, understood and accepted not as an insult but as an opportunity for the Thai and farang to jointly create benefit for Thai society.

One of the most effective ways for long term farangs to influence Thai culture is through their children. Remember that you are supposed to lead by example. Being inappropriately critical of Thailand will not be beneficial to the balanced development of children and may affect their future happiness.

[geriatrickid]

I drive my friends batty with my sighs, frowns and grunts whenever I am confronted with those Thai behaviours we all know so well. However, they tell me to shut up. Perhaps, that's one of the things missing from the negative folks' lives: There is no one there to tell them to F off and behave. I am blessed to have friends that function as surrogate family and I reckon the happier members of TV have the good fortune of a loving spouse/partner that provide the necessary checks and balances. For every Thai lady rip off story I read, i know there are those that have had lives made whole and changed for the better by the presence of that special thai lady (or man). Internet forums are skewed to the negative, not the positive because most people forget how lucky they are, but when they get p.oed, they fire up the rockets and let loose.

I'm lucky in that i don't have to live here full time and can leave every few months and come back. this gives me the joys of still being excited to go home and to also come back to my other home. Thing is, which one is my home now

I suppose once I get married and have kids or something i'm going to have to decide, but until then, I'm one of the luckiest buggers to be able to do this, even if I want to go throw something off my balcony at the construction crew pile driving away downstairs. Heck, I'm looking at Patong bay now, and darn if it isn't beautiful enough to make me forget about last night's irritations.

[bravingbangkok]

Most expats complain about this country because the only connection they have to it is through a Thai girl who 50% of the time will fuc_k them about and in end leave them for the next one, or worse someone will have an accident. How can you love a country or at least try to understand her and her people when the main connection with this country is a whore or close to it ?

Expats who were born here or have a family and family friends connection here view things a lot different. Most expats are just day trippers so to speak, they have no intention of making any sort of success in this country.

As a few posters have said most people slate Thailand because they do not fully understand Thailand.

[mauGR1]

Interesting discussion here,just to add my two pence,i think is unfair to generalise about the Thais and the Farangs.There is good and bad everywhere.In my opinion we(Farangs)should try hard to learn Phasa Thai,as the Thais who speak English are not necessarily the more interesting ones.I'm grateful to the fellow Thais who contribute to this Forum,their opinion has a lot of weight in my understanding of Thailand and its people.After being to my homecountry for one month,i'm glad to be back in LOS,have a good day everyone.

[norwayeagle]

What the OP misses is that healthy happy well adjusted adults don't spend much time posting online.

You have a point there.

[bkkjames]

What the OP misses is that healthy happy well adjusted adults don't spend much time posting online.

with 37 posts in 2.5 years, you must be very well adjusted, happy and healthy. Does beg the question, do you only visit TV when you are feeling down?