Early voting - battleground states

[Plus]

Have I missed something here:

When did the FCCT distribute the speech? Before Jakrapob was charged or after?

If the FCCT distributed the speech before he was charged, did they do anything wrong?

Did they stop any and all distribution after he was charged?

Did they begin selling the DVDs only after Jakrapob called for guerilla war?

Did anyone actually buy the DVD?

What a strange twist of fate that would be, the only person to buy the DVD is the person behind the charges.

Apparently DVDs were on sale AFTER Jakrapob was charged, they could still be on sale now. There was an explanation that they are available only to members, in reality it probably means whoever is inside the club.

Personally, I would have withdrawn them after Jakrapob declared guerilla war on Thailand. They guy has completely discredited himself.

I though he discredited himself even in that speech when he couldn't defend his theory after people pointed out that Thaksin's system was in no way better than the patronage itself and what he was proposing was not an improvement in any sense.

I dont' understand foreign journos fascination with him, apart from "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" logic.

[Ijustwannateach]

No you got it wrong....again.Jakrapob's appearance at the FCCT was long before the events of April this year.

By that logic earlier sermons against the US by Osama, for example, are ok to sell on DVDs because that was before he actually ordered flying planes into WTC (even if allegedly).

Well, actually, AFAIK it *is* legal to sell Anti-US sermons in the US (if there's a buyer and there's no issue of copyright, etc.) because of this thing we have called freedom of speech...

Although it has been hard-going lately, the US flag still isn't more important than what it stands for....

Sorry, bit off-topic, but thought I should point that out....

[Plus]

Can you give an example of a US mosque selling DVDs of Osama sermons or something similar?

Otherwise it's like "I think legal but I'm not sure".

Actually, how about foreign, visiting clerics peddling Osama tapes?

Edited July 2, 2009 by Plus

[jayboy]

No you got it wrong....again.Jakrapob's appearance at the FCCT was long before the events of April this year.

By that logic earlier sermons against the US by Osama, for example, are ok to sell on DVDs because that was before he actually ordered flying planes into WTC (even if allegedly).

Well, actually, AFAIK it *is* legal to sell Anti-US sermons in the US (if there's a buyer and there's no issue of copyright, etc.) because of this thing we have called freedom of speech...

Although it has been hard-going lately, the US flag still isn't more important than what it stands for....

Sorry, bit off-topic, but thought I should point that out....

Actually it's a very pertinent point and completely on topic.The nearest American equivalent of this ridiculous situation would have I thought been the seventeenth century witch trials at Salem when accusations were flung around by the immature or ignorant, and exploited by the cynical.Actually at least the witch trials represented a morality story of sorts with some interesting light cast on the human condition.

[jayboy]

Can you give an example of a US mosque selling DVDs of Osama sermons or something similar?

Otherwise it's like "I think legal but I'm not sure".

Actually, how about foreign, visiting clerics peddling Osama tapes?

No but I can give you an example of someone who is by no means a fool but is so obsessed that he loses sight of the fact when his strong feelings lead him into spouting laughable tripe.

[animatic]

We allow the discussion of the case, but keep the monarchy out of the discussion. We are not going to discuss what His Majesty said or not. I hope that is clear

With the greatest of respect. If one is not allowed to quote from His majesty's own words, which is highly pertinent to the overall subject of Lese majeste in the Kingdom Of Thailand, then perhaps the topic should not be discussed at all.

I do have a favourite from His Majesty's wisdom, which I try to live by. Forgive the spelling, but it is

'Por Piang'

A good point.

HRM is quoted daily around the country in print and on buildings.

It is done precisely and respectfully of course.

Including those in translation to other tounges.

[hagler]

Can you give an example of a US mosque selling DVDs of Osama sermons or something similar?

Otherwise it's like "I think legal but I'm not sure".

Actually, how about foreign, visiting clerics peddling Osama tapes?

No but I can give you an example of someone who is by no means a fool but is so obsessed that he loses sight of the fact when his strong feelings lead him into spouting laughable tripe.

And that is the most correct thing I have seen written on TV for a long time. Well said

[Plus]

LM law, as was explained by Abhisit, is a legal tool to protect the monarchy from defamation and libel, a protection that is extended to every Thai citizen, but by some incredulous red logic must be denied to the King.

Defamation and libel are not about freedom of speech - if you offend someone, that person must have a right to protect his name. In case of the monarchy - the institution can't sue it's own subjects, so other people have to file the charges. Maybe there should be some vetting panel, but it doesn't seem to be a pressing matter for lawmakers in this country, representatives of Thai people apparently don't think it's important.

As for abuse of LM for political purposes - isn't it what the hacks at FCCT tried to do themselves by writing dozens of articles on the issue? Now it looks like they even tried to cash in on LM content in Jakrapob's speech? I bet it wouldn't sell a single copy if not for the controversy, and even if FCCT doesn't have a monetary insentive to sell the DVD, they apparently feel ideological need to spread his ideas, and then create even more publicity when caught by making it into a big LM issue.

Same pattern in almost all LM stories, like that Australian idiot who presented an outright lie as a matter of fact, just to gain publicity - who made it into a big political issue? FCCT journos and other assorted defenders of "freedom of speech". There was absolutely nothing political about it until they came along.

Now it seems you can spout any kind of nonsense, if no one cares - throw a couple of LM statements in it to attract attention, and voila, you can claim that you are prosecuted by state for your "ideas".

Who is abusing LM here?

[Bangyai]

Sounds like she might have just lost her job.

Or lost face via anyone of the charged persons.

Revenge is a woman scorned etc.

The question is the leanings of the police general who took the case and proceeded...

Likely this will be backfiring on those attempting this.

It is no longer a simple national issue, but this makes it international.

There are only so many international periodicals and TV channels

that Thailand can ban for talking about facts, before wiser heads prevail...

How peculiar. I read this 3 times and yet still found myself agreeing with you. I think I'll take 2 aspirins and have a quiet lie down.

[orangezeke]

Can you give an example of a US mosque selling DVDs of Osama sermons or something similar?

Otherwise it's like "I think legal but I'm not sure".

Actually, how about foreign, visiting clerics peddling Osama tapes?

this is a poor comparison. o.b.l. has called for the reversal of american foreign policy rather than the end to a particular form of government. a more accurate comparison to this case would be the arrest of CNN staff because they decided to air transcripts or videos of o.b.l.'s speeches. i don't know about you, but i have seen that plenty of times.

[Plus]

What have you seen? Arrests of CNN staff?

Does CNN sell a collection of Osama speeches on it's website, btw? Or better yet, does Al Jazeera sell Osama speeches in the US?

And if you insist it's a better comparison - which FCCT member has been arrested?

The point is - when it concerns national security, the West finds pleny of ways to go around "freedom of speech" kind of rights and restrict public access to "dangerous" information, like funerals of servicemen or Osama broadcasts, but when Thailand does the same - it has not right to protect its national security.

When Thailand goes bankrupt, the West preaches about transparency and forces it to accept free market solutions. When the West goes bust, it's all socialism and govt bailouts.

[jacobbells]

I just called a friend of mine, a regular at the FCCT; he said that the FCCT made and sold/distributed the vids of Jakhrapob' speech before he was charged with lese-majeste.

So, how the hel_l can FCCT be charged?

Plus above should take notice instead of living in never-ever land. He probably hasn't a clue what Jakrapob said - if he had he wouldn't be writing these comments. Academics have been saying what Jakrapob said for donkeys years and never been charged with LM. It's just because Jakrapob was a friend of Thaksin's.

The last time i checked the speech of the video on YouTube wasn't even blocked!

Neither was Da Torpedo's really shocking speech! (unlike Jakrapob's)

The yellow-shirted ASTV/PAD are helping to destry the country's highest institution, not protect.

[JohnGotti]

These farang have some nerve to slander the King's good name. I hope all of these farang receive the full 15 year prison sentence for their actions here.

[jacobbells]

These farang have some nerve to slander the King's good name. I hope all of these farang receive the full 15 year prison sentence for their actions here.

What a **** idiot, Jakraphob and Veera didn't say anything to slander the King at the FCCT - go watch the **** video on YouTube.

[jonclark]

These farang have some nerve to slander the King's good name. I hope all of these farang receive the full 15 year prison sentence for their actions here.

Please explain yourself further -

• which farang - Jakarop?? / The people on Thaivisa?
  
• Slander - where / when/ what was said that was slanderous?
  

Please backup your rhetoric laden statements with some fact.

Edited July 2, 2009 by jonclark

[JohnGotti]

read the title of the thread.

as guests here, i can't believe they would have the nerve to attempt such a horrible crime against the Thai people and Thai culture. I reiterate, please let all named in the charge serve the full 15 year maximum prison sentence.

[animatic]

Sounds like she might have just lost her job.

Or lost face via anyone of the charged persons.

Revenge is a woman scorned etc.

The question is the leanings of the police general who took the case and proceeded...

Likely this will be backfiring on those attempting this.

It is no longer a simple national issue, but this makes it international.

There are only so many international periodicals and TV channels

that Thailand can ban for talking about facts, before wiser heads prevail...

How peculiar. I read this 3 times and yet still found myself agreeing with you.

I think I'll take 2 aspirins and have a quiet lie down.

Life is like a box of chocolates.

Ususally the wife has got

all the good ones before you get to it.

But occasionally you get

a surprise!

[Plus]

I just called a friend of mine, a regular at the FCCT; he said that the FCCT made and sold/distributed the vids of Jakhrapob' speech before he was charged with lese-majeste.

So, how the hel_l can FCCT be charged?

You mean to say they discontinued the sales when he was charged?

Otherwise it's irrelevant when they started.

[Bangyai]

Sounds like she might have just lost her job.

Or lost face via anyone of the charged persons.

Revenge is a woman scorned etc.

The question is the leanings of the police general who took the case and proceeded...

Likely this will be backfiring on those attempting this.

It is no longer a simple national issue, but this makes it international.

There are only so many international periodicals and TV channels

that Thailand can ban for talking about facts, before wiser heads prevail...

How peculiar. I read this 3 times and yet still found myself agreeing with you.

I think I'll take 2 aspirins and have a quiet lie down.

Life is like a box of chocolates.

Ususally the wife has got

all the good ones before you get to it.

But occasionally you get

a surprise!

Even more occasionaly if you happen to have a dog......believe me. ( I hate to be mean but I've taken to hiding my favourite cookies ........ he in turn , buries his bones when he thinks I'm not looking......fool )

[justanothercybertosser]

LM law, as was explained by Abhisit, is a legal tool to protect the monarchy from defamation and libel, a protection that is extended to every Thai citizen, but by some incredulous red logic must be denied to the King.

Defamation and libel are not about freedom of speech - if you offend someone, that person must have a right to protect his name. In case of the monarchy - the institution can't sue it's own subjects, so other people have to file the charges. Maybe there should be some vetting panel, but it doesn't seem to be a pressing matter for lawmakers in this country, representatives of Thai people apparently don't think it's important.

As for abuse of LM for political purposes - isn't it what the hacks at FCCT tried to do themselves by writing dozens of articles on the issue? Now it looks like they even tried to cash in on LM content in Jakrapob's speech? I bet it wouldn't sell a single copy if not for the controversy, and even if FCCT doesn't have a monetary insentive to sell the DVD, they apparently feel ideological need to spread his ideas, and then create even more publicity when caught by making it into a big LM issue.

Same pattern in almost all LM stories, like that Australian idiot who presented an outright lie as a matter of fact, just to gain publicity - who made it into a big political issue? FCCT journos and other assorted defenders of "freedom of speech". There was absolutely nothing political about it until they came along.

Now it seems you can spout any kind of nonsense, if no one cares - throw a couple of LM statements in it to attract attention, and voila, you can claim that you are prosecuted by state for your "ideas".

Who is abusing LM here?

You, and people of your ideological persuasion are directly abusing the Lese Majeste law, by trying to intimidate and shut off critical media. The sophism you use to explain your position is revolting.

First of all, Jakrapop Penkair has been accused of Lese Majeste, and has not been convicted, in a case that smells of political motivation as the case was only filed months after the speech, and just after he received his post as minister. There has not been a conviction against Jakrapop Penkair. The FCCT has not, as Sondhi Limthingkul has done, repeated to maybe offending remarks, it has distributed the recording of the event to its members. Until now this speech has by no court in the country been judged as offending to the monarchy.

The worst part of this is, that the reason for Lese Majeste laws is to protect the monarchy against insults and defamation, and is not supposed to be hijacked by political pressure groups to further their own political agenda, and to shut up their critics. By occupying the exclusive position of loyalty to the monarchy, the PAD only creates increased criticism, and is therefore the group that damages the reputation of the monarchy the most, because it is almost impossible for the monarchy to make a public statement regarding this and many other cases.

You, with your posts here, defending the indefensible, are exactly as guilty of abusing the Lese Majeste law as the ones who have filed this most revolting case against the FCCT - a grave offense against freedom of the media, which undoubtably will again decrease the relevant international ranking of Thailand, with all its consequences.

I am disgusted by this case, and by your posts in this thread.

[Hermano Lobo]

C'mon, let's stop pussyfooting around here ?

In jail for 99 years ?

Let's have a public flogging ! Bring out the gallows or burn them alive. These journalists need to be taught a lesson.

Let the public have a spectacle, blood and more blood.

When they have finished with the journalists. Go for the ex-pat farangs who leech of Thailand !

Then any farang tourists, they are bound to be up to no good !

Hang 'Em High !

Oh for the Roman Coliseum !

Throw the journalists and farangs to the Tigers and Lions !

Also at :-

The Nation Blogs

[animatic]

LM law, as was explained by Abhisit, is a legal tool to protect the monarchy from defamation and libel, a protection that is extended to every Thai citizen, but by some incredulous red logic must be denied to the King.

Defamation and libel are not about freedom of speech - if you offend someone, that person must have a right to protect his name. In case of the monarchy - the institution can't sue it's own subjects, so other people have to file the charges. Maybe there should be some vetting panel, but it doesn't seem to be a pressing matter for lawmakers in this country, representatives of Thai people apparently don't think it's important.

As for abuse of LM for political purposes - isn't it what the hacks at FCCT tried to do themselves by writing dozens of articles on the issue? Now it looks like they even tried to cash in on LM content in Jakrapob's speech? I bet it wouldn't sell a single copy if not for the controversy, and even if FCCT doesn't have a monetary insentive to sell the DVD, they apparently feel ideological need to spread his ideas, and then create even more publicity when caught by making it into a big LM issue.

Same pattern in almost all LM stories, like that Australian idiot who presented an outright lie as a matter of fact, just to gain publicity - who made it into a big political issue? FCCT journos and other assorted defenders of "freedom of speech". There was absolutely nothing political about it until they came along.

Now it seems you can spout any kind of nonsense, if no one cares - throw a couple of LM statements in it to attract attention, and voila, you can claim that you are prosecuted by state for your "ideas".

Who is abusing LM here?

You, and people of your ideological persuasion are directly abusing the Lese Majeste law, by trying to intimidate and shut off critical media. The sophism you use to explain your position is revolting.

First of all, Jakrapop Penkair has been accused of Lese Majeste, and has not been convicted, in a case that smells of political motivation as the case was only filed months after the speech, and just after he received his post as minister. There has not been a conviction against Jakrapop Penkair. The FCCT has not, as Sondhi Limthingkul has done, repeated to maybe offending remarks, it has distributed the recording of the event to its members. Until now this speech has by no court in the country been judged as offending to the monarchy.

The worst part of this is, that the reason for Lese Majeste laws is to protect the monarchy against insults and defamation, and is not supposed to be hijacked by political pressure groups to further their own political agenda, and to shut up their critics. By occupying the exclusive position of loyalty to the monarchy, the PAD only creates increased criticism, and is therefore the group that damages the reputation of the monarchy the most, because it is almost impossible for the monarchy to make a public statement regarding this and many other cases.

You, with your posts here, defending the indefensible, are exactly as guilty of abusing the Lese Majeste law as the ones who have filed this most revolting case against the FCCT - a grave offense against freedom of the media, which undoubtably will again decrease the relevant international ranking of Thailand, with all its consequences.

I am disgusted by this case, and by your posts in this thread.

Excuse me but the article only said she is a "Thaksin critic",

it said nothing at all about PAD or her affiliations other than

working for a company doing some business the FCCT.

So your high dudgeon seems based on assuming it is a PAD instigated prosecution and nothing more.

This charge has been used both sides of the fence, and with multiple motivations,

some potential ones I listed above.

All in all it has been a foolish episode from Jakrapob on down the food chain.

But adding further partisan incendiary flames to the pyre serves no purpose.

Yes, all in all, the whole episode from start to unfinished end, is disgusting to behold.

Edited July 2, 2009 by animatic

[Datsun240Z]

C'mon, let's stop pussyfooting around here ?

In jail for 99 years ?

Let's have a public flogging ! Bring out the gallows or burn them alive. These journalists need to be taught a lesson.

Let the public have a spectacle, blood and more blood.

When they have finished with the journalists. Go for the ex-pat farangs who leech of Thailand !

Then any farang tourists, they are bound to be up to no good !

Hang 'Em High !

Oh for the Roman Coliseum !

Throw the journalists and farangs to the Tigers and Lions !

Also at :-

The Nation Blogs

That is soooo modern.... Prefer this:

[Ijustwannateach]

Can you give an example of a US mosque selling DVDs of Osama sermons or something similar?

Otherwise it's like "I think legal but I'm not sure".

Actually, how about foreign, visiting clerics peddling Osama tapes?

I'm afraid I'm not in the market for them- perhaps you could search for them. But I wouldn't object to their being available: in the US, political speech (with a few rare exceptions) is protected speech (example: the 1960s). Wouldn't be surprised if attempts were made assuming there were any commercial outlets to suppress them, but ultimately these would probably not survive a Supreme Court test, and that's a good thing from the point of view of strong democracy. In fact, I think it is one of the tests of whether a strong democracy exists, whether or not it can tolerate the open expression of dissent- I would argue the recent suppressive tendencies in the US signal a weak moment in our democracy. Again, apologies for the off-topic material, but as a basis for comparing democracies perhaps it is useful.

[baht&sold]

self-moderated edit regarding the 'usual muppets', pure shame and you know it.

Edited July 2, 2009 by baht&sold

[DaleBlue]

These farang have some nerve to slander the King's good name. I hope all of these farang receive the full 15 year prison sentence for their actions here.

What a **** idiot, Jakraphob and Veera didn't say anything to slander the King at the FCCT - go watch the **** video on YouTube.

If you wanna see a real lese-majeste speech search YouTube for 'Giles Ungpakorn SOAS'. Idiots at MICT haven't blocked that too!

I just watch it from outside Thailand.

Very GOOD stuff.

I am not sure if this clip is block in Thailand.

This guy is a Republican, and by that alone, should get 15 years sentence in Thailand.

No one in Thailand can be a Republican.

[bartender100]

On a not so serious note.

I've always been jealous of Jonathon Head, he's been the Bangkok correspondent for YEARS, what a job, probably living in a fantastic apartment paid for by the Beeb, expenses and free to travel where he wants, "Oh there's a problem in Krabi, better get down there" Salary!! who knows.?

Wonder if he's a member of TV?

[hammered]

Isnt Head being reassigned to Turkey?

As Ive said before these complaints can be filed by anyone and ther police will take every complaint seriously as they stand to be accused of disloyalty if they dont. No political party is going to openly take this law on - PTP or Dem. Political operatives of every side have used this to get at oponents. Both Jakrpaob and Sonthi have ongoing cases against them.

Abhisit has tried to make a few reasonable statements on this law but has gone as far as he can and has little support form his allies. From what he has said there are cases being brought, including by the police without a complaint, that the government would rather not have brought. There are many sides and agendas. The PTP leadership have not even been critical of it.

[jackr]

as guests here, i can't believe they would have the nerve to attempt such a horrible crime against the Thai people and Thai culture. I reiterate, please let all named in the charge serve the full 15 year maximum prison sentence.

What a load of tosh, perhaps you should join them

Try talking to a Thai with brains on this issue.

[Plus]

The FCCT has not, as Sondhi Limthingkul has done, repeated to maybe offending remarks, it has distributed the recording of the event to its members. Until now this speech has by no court in the country been judged as offending to the monarchy.

Oh so legal we are now. What's the meaning of this? That FCCT cannot be charged for selling the DVDs? What kind of twisted logic is that?

Why should they be granted the immunity from country's laws? They are not diplomats.

The worst part of this is, that the reason for Lese Majeste laws is to protect the monarchy against insults and defamation, and is not supposed to be hijacked by political pressure groups to further their own political agenda, and to shut up their critics.

Not so legal here, though - no court in the country judged that anyone was advancing their political agenda by filing LM charges. That's your own allegation to which my response is the same - it's the offenders themselves who try to advance their political agenda by trumping up anti-LM rhetoric.

They make allegations against monarchy, and when those are questioned they go to the media to publicise their whole ideology that otherwise goes unnoticed. Giles is a perfect example. He wrote a book, no one cared, he was charged, no one cared. Then he fled and faxed his "manifesto" to every news media. Next morning half the country was "Giles who? What did he say?"

.. in the US, political speech (with a few rare exceptions) is protected speech (example: the 1960s). Wouldn't be surprised if attempts were made assuming there were any commercial outlets to suppress them, but ultimately these would probably not survive a Supreme Court test...

Osama is not a politician, he is a terrorist.

Check out this radical muslim preacher:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Hamza_al-...rorism_Act_2000

Though he was arrested and charged in the UK, he was also facing extradition to the US.

"The charges related to his possession of the Encyclopedia of Afghan Jihad, a Al Qaeda Handbook and to propaganda materials produced by Abu Hamza", though there's no citation for that.

My point - western coutnries DO have laws to deal with threats to national security that often supercede the usual, legally protected rights.

Why should Thailand be denied these laws? Currently Jakrapob is also charged with inciting unrest or something like that.

The FCCT must be really dumb to sell his speeches and get themselves right in the middle of the political struggle, not to mention being opened to all kinds of legal troubles.