Have You Been Short Changed In After Hours Bars?

[Donnyboy]

Back to the topic, I've not had a problem anywhere in Chiang Mai in over two years, including the early reprobate period of after hours drinking, Spicy's, etc. Not in the places where no one knows me and I'm assumed to be a tourist, and especially not in regular haunts. Odds are someone will try it on sooner or later though, maybe the OP was just unlucky.

me neither, but my late nights out on the town are few n far between these days, not that im a boozer to start with

[Donnyboy]

Great video Donny.

Having been on the wrong end of English yob nmany times during my career that video is priceless

how ya doin MB?

situations like these could spiral out of control very fast, especially when mixing bravado and alcohol

[miltonbentley]

Great video Donny.

Having been on the wrong end of English yob nmany times during my career that video is priceless

how ya doin MB?

situations like these could spiral out of control very fast, especially when mixing bravado and alcohol

Alright thanks DB good to see you back.

[caf]

Back to the topic, I've not had a problem anywhere in Chiang Mai in over two years, including the early reprobate period of after hours drinking, Spicy's, etc. Not in the places where no one knows me and I'm assumed to be a tourist, and especially not in regular haunts. Odds are someone will try it on sooner or later though, maybe the OP was just unlucky.

I agree let's get back on topic. The "great" video showed an unacceptable side of social imbibing and it's unfortunate that some seemed to accept that behaviour. And Thais do have a reputation for uneven combat. I don't condone that as being great at all.

All drinks retailers have problems with drunks but at Wetherspoon we took powerful steps company wide to control it. Including police liason. Rewarding our better managers as they worked with us to enhance responsible drinks retailing. That video could never have been taken in a Wetherspoon location.

Shortchanging can happen anywhere but after hours here it is tempting for staff to take advantage. As Ian said be as careful as you can you know this is Thailand.

[Scrubber]

my understanding of the topic was that chris84 was asking that if anyone has had a similar experience of being short changed how did they deal with it, or how would be the best way to deal with such a scenario.

being english myself, i think that obviously the best way of dealing with this situation would be to smash up the bar, and if they have a swimming pool throw all the bar furniture into it.

sometimes these jolly foreigners need reminding of our superior british status

any time you need advice

d

however in Thailand, theres a thai way of dealing with yr colonialistic behaviour

better watch your back

I think if I was there I would have popped him too. And the way the loud mouth wussie dropped like a sad sack of potatoes. No wonder Thais sometimes get sick of westerners.

Nice - a guy punched him from the side and then another one kicked him when he was down - very brave. One thing to remember - never start anything when surrounded by Thais because there's only going to be one outcome.

Edited July 25, 2009 by Scrubber

[Blinky Bill]

Nice - a guy punched him from the side and then another one kicked him when he was down - very brave. One thing to remember - never start anything when surrounded by Thais because there's only going to be one outcome.

Too right mate. Had the <deleted> been in the UK, he'd probably have been bottled or glassed in the face. Had he been in the US, he'd have been slashed with a razor or knife or more than likely, shot. In Oz? Any of the above.

[dinphangan]

Nice - a guy punched him from the side and then another one kicked him when he was down - very brave. One thing to remember - never start anything when surrounded by Thais because there's only going to be one outcome.

Too right mate. Had the <deleted> been in the UK, he'd probably have been bottled or glassed in the face. Had he been in the US, he'd have been slashed with a razor or knife or more than likely, shot. In Oz? Any of the above.

good point there bill.

in response to a previous comment the reason the thais tend to fight in packs or groups is because there isnt alot of chance of a 5'2 thai lad winning in a fight against a 6'2 western guy. how ever much people try to make fighting a gentlemens game, it isnt. for the most part people want to win no matter what.

from living in thailand for a couple of years now, in a tourist area, i can quite honestly say that there are far fewer 'incidents' here than in my home town in england (where fighting at the weekend has turned into a sport, umpired by the local police who hand out 80 pound fines to participants).

i have also noticed that thai people loose their temper over different things to english people. for example i witnessed an israeli get a kicking by a group of bar workers because he insluted one of them by making a scene over the same thing this thread is about. he called them theives and after that he was beaten. the thai lad and his friends were insulted (and perhaps lost face) by being called theives in front of a bar full of people.

where as in england fights usually start for different reasons, like in a kebab shop over who was first in the queue, or in a pub over the football.

i myself find that living in thailand i am a lot less likely to get in a confrontation with someone than i would be living back home. i find the thai culture itself very diffucult to understand, especially logically, but with a little respect for the differences it is very easy to get by without getting into fights or trouble. unlike in england where you can get your teeth knocked out just because someone doesnt like the look of you.

din

[anonymouse]

i thought the guy may have been wearing brass knuckles as you can hear a slight 'ding' with the punch, but i couldnt make anything out on his hand

I watch the fights occasionally, both Muay Thai and proper boxing, and occasionally you see a one punch knockout that dumps a guy in a heap, but not often.

Your find thats because they are wearing gloves Ian, also they are trained to take a punch.

[anonymouse]

Nice - a guy punched him from the side and then another one kicked him when he was down - very brave. One thing to remember - never start anything when surrounded by Thais because there's only going to be one outcome.

Too right mate. Had the <deleted> been in the UK, he'd probably have been bottled or glassed in the face. Had he been in the US, he'd have been slashed with a razor or knife or more than likely, shot. In Oz? Any of the above.

good point there bill.

in response to a previous comment the reason the thais tend to fight in packs or groups is because there isnt alot of chance of a 5'2 thai lad winning in a fight against a 6'2 western guy. how ever much people try to make fighting a gentlemens game, it isnt. for the most part people want to win no matter what.

from living in thailand for a couple of years now, in a tourist area, i can quite honestly say that there are far fewer 'incidents' here than in my home town in england (where fighting at the weekend has turned into a sport, umpired by the local police who hand out 80 pound fines to participants).

i have also noticed that thai people loose their temper over different things to english people. for example i witnessed an israeli get a kicking by a group of bar workers because he insluted one of them by making a scene over the same thing this thread is about. he called them theives and after that he was beaten. the thai lad and his friends were insulted (and perhaps lost face) by being called theives in front of a bar full of people.

where as in england fights usually start for different reasons, like in a kebab shop over who was first in the queue, or in a pub over the football.

i myself find that living in thailand i am a lot less likely to get in a confrontation with someone than i would be living back home. i find the thai culture itself very diffucult to understand, especially logically, but with a little respect for the differences it is very easy to get by without getting into fights or trouble. unlike in england where you can get your teeth knocked out just because someone doesnt like the look of you.

din

I disagree with your comments regarding why they fight in packs they fight with each other like this as well, a group of Thai lads will kick the s%&t out of one guy.

I do agree with you regarding Thai people's reasons for getting in fights and usually it is because of a loss of face.

I've spent a lot of time in thailand over the last 14 years and been involved in two sessions of fisticuffs both times with French guys, coincidence I hope, I have nothing personal against the French.

[caf]

Nice - a guy punched him from the side and then another one kicked him when he was down - very brave. One thing to remember - never start anything when surrounded by Thais because there's only going to be one outcome.

Too right mate. Had the <deleted> been in the UK, he'd probably have been bottled or glassed in the face. Had he been in the US, he'd have been slashed with a razor or knife or more than likely, shot. In Oz? Any of the above.

good point there bill.

in response to a previous comment the reason the thais tend to fight in packs or groups is because there isnt alot of chance of a 5'2 thai lad winning in a fight against a 6'2 western guy. how ever much people try to make fighting a gentlemens game, it isnt. for the most part people want to win no matter what.

from living in thailand for a couple of years now, in a tourist area, i can quite honestly say that there are far fewer 'incidents' here than in my home town in england (where fighting at the weekend has turned into a sport, umpired by the local police who hand out 80 pound fines to participants).

i have also noticed that thai people loose their temper over different things to english people. for example i witnessed an israeli get a kicking by a group of bar workers because he insluted one of them by making a scene over the same thing this thread is about. he called them theives and after that he was beaten. the thai lad and his friends were insulted (and perhaps lost face) by being called theives in front of a bar full of people.

where as in england fights usually start for different reasons, like in a kebab shop over who was first in the queue, or in a pub over the football.

i myself find that living in thailand i am a lot less likely to get in a confrontation with someone than i would be living back home. i find the thai culture itself very diffucult to understand, especially logically, but with a little respect for the differences it is very easy to get by without getting into fights or trouble. unlike in england where you can get your teeth knocked out just because someone doesnt like the look of you.

din

I disagree with your comments regarding why they fight in packs they fight with each other like this as well, a group of Thai lads will kick the s%&t out of one guy.

I do agree with you regarding Thai people's reasons for getting in fights and usually it is because of a loss of face.

I've spent a lot of time in thailand over the last 14 years and been involved in two sessions of fisticuffs both times with French guys, coincidence I hope, I have nothing personal against the French.

I agree anonymouse. It is the "brave" thai way as another poster already commented and as I implied in my original post.

[maechanman]

I'm not blaming you, but feel that you were way too casual about it for the location and the time of night - giving them a big note for a small bill and going off to the toilet. I would have at least waited right there for my change, so it would have been fresh in everyone's mind.

I agree with UG on this one, though you did the right thing in walking away.

I agree with Ulysses adn anonymouse on this one. Some times you are in the wrong place at the wrong time and you get stung. 500 baht is not worth getting hurt over and it's a lesson learned... don't use big bills for small payment. If I don't have any smaller bills I normally go to 7-11 BEFORE I go to the bar and get a big bill changed by buying something small.

Only a couple of times do I think I've been short changed and it's always been by the same waitress.

She seems to add a few more lady drinks to my total. I don't drink a lot and normally keep a running total in my head and it's only with this woman that my figures don't jibe with hers. Every time I see that she is on the till I don't buy much at all. If anyone else is on the till I trust their tally.

I normally visit only a few bars that know me, and I never get drunk, so it's pretty easy for me. Occasionally, I forget to pay and wander off. The bars remind me the next day and I pay up. Everyone I've ever noticed having problems have always been the drunk ones. I'm not saying the drunks are wrong, but I am saying they are setting themselves up for problems occurred by themselves. If you want to get drunk, then either REALLY know the establishment well or do it at a private residence where you have brought your own booze.

A good post and some sound advice - particularly getting change from 7/11 etc

It doesn't excuse the scam of course. I hope you accept that.

And; Occasionally, I forget to pay and wander off

I've been short changed on more than one occasion in 7/11's here paying with large bills.

[Ulysses G.]

Remember that everyone makes mistakes. I work with cash and have made them myself. Sometimes we are being given "wrong change" , rather than being "short changed" on purpose.

[miltonbentley]

Back to the topic, I've not had a problem anywhere in Chiang Mai in over two years, including the early reprobate period of after hours drinking, Spicy's, etc. Not in the places where no one knows me and I'm assumed to be a tourist, and especially not in regular haunts. Odds are someone will try it on sooner or later though, maybe the OP was just unlucky.

I agree let's get back on topic. The "great" video showed an unacceptable side of social imbibing and it's unfortunate that some seemed to accept that behaviour. And Thais do have a reputation for uneven combat. I don't condone that as being great at all.

All drinks retailers have problems with drunks but at Wetherspoon we took powerful steps company wide to control it. Including police liason. Rewarding our better managers as they worked with us to enhance responsible drinks retailing. That video could never have been taken in a Wetherspoon location.

Shortchanging can happen anywhere but after hours here it is tempting for staff to take advantage. As Ian said be as careful as you can you know this is Thailand.

Well Wetherspoons certainly came late to the party because in my experience up to 2002 they didn't attend Pubwatch in my community at all. In fact they were the main source of problems in the town selling unlimited pints of cheap beer to all the towns yobs who then terrorised all the other pubs in the neighbourhood.

I described the video as great because I had to put up with the effects of Wetherspoons' dross customers who were exactly like the English chap in the video and would come and inflict violence on my customers and staff on a regular basis. In fact the five yobs who all went to prison after causing total mayhem in my pub in England, including kicking my then girlfriend repeatedly in the face for having the temerity of going out with me, were previously banned from every pub in town except the Wetherspoons.

If Wetherspoons have cleaned up their act good for them but back then they were only interested in how much money they could get in their tills and were none to choosy about the customers who put it there.

Apologies - rant over

Edited July 26, 2009 by miltonbentley

[Loaded]

Thais don't grow up with Queensbury rules or tales of chivalry from King Arthur's court. For a Thai there is honour in winning and helping a fellow Thai to win. Losing a fight because it's 'honourable' to fight 1 on 1 is silly to most Thais. They fight to win.

The guy in the video is so embarrassing. Could you imagine an ex-British soldier coming home from WW1 or 2 behaving like that? Of course not. England is now full of 'hard men' made of Fosters and kebabs molded from over-the-top soap operas. Hard men talk softly and try to avoid conflict. Observe Thais to see real hard men IMO.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Loaded

[IanForbes]

The simple answer is STILL to make it well known to the waiter or cashier that you are giving him/her a 1000 baht note if you don't have smaller change. Make it understood at the start that you expect the proper change. It only takes a moment and then there is no mix up.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Can I just add that there are polite and less polite ways to make it known that you're issuing a 1000 baht note.. Sometimes I see people wave a 1000 baht bill in waitress' face yelling somewhat threatenlingly "1000 baht na!" However it's equally (or perhaps more) effective to apologize for being out of small change, and ask if they have change for a 1000.

Edited July 26, 2009 by WinnieTheKhwai

[Theyreallrubbish]

Remember that everyone makes mistakes. I work with cash and have made them myself. Sometimes we are being given "wrong change" , rather than being "short changed" on purpose.

There's a restaurant I go to quite regularly where the only staff member brave enough to talk to me, even though I speak to them in Thai, is the old woman owner and she tots up the bill by writing it down in front of me and then attempting to add it all up without a calculator.

About half the time she gets it wrong.

The interesting thing is that she has never got it wrong to the upside but always added it up as too little.

I wonder how many customers correct her and how much money she loses on those who don't.

[Donnyboy]

Remember that everyone makes mistakes. I work with cash and have made them myself. Sometimes we are being given "wrong change" , rather than being "short changed" on purpose.

There's a restaurant I go to quite regularly where the only staff member brave enough to talk to me, even though I speak to them in Thai, is the old woman owner and she tots up the bill by writing it down in front of me and then attempting to add it all up without a calculator.

About half the time she gets it wrong.

The interesting thing is that she has never got it wrong to the upside but always added it up as too little.

I wonder how many customers correct her and how much money she loses on those who don't.

Leenas?

[Donnyboy]

i thought the guy may have been wearing brass knuckles as you can hear a slight 'ding' with the punch, but i couldnt make anything out on his hand

I watch the fights occasionally, both Muay Thai and proper boxing, and occasionally you see a one punch knockout that dumps a guy in a heap, but not often.

Your find thats because they are wearing gloves Ian, also they are trained to take a punch.

no amount of training will prepare you for a punch you dont see coming

[Absingjul]

There's a restaurant I go to quite regularly where the only staff member brave enough to talk to me, even though I speak to them in Thai, is the old woman owner and she tots up the bill by writing it down in front of me and then attempting to add it all up without a calculator.

A Thai attempting maths without their Casio?

[Theyreallrubbish]

There's a restaurant I go to quite regularly where the only staff member brave enough to talk to me, even though I speak to them in Thai, is the old woman owner and she tots up the bill by writing it down in front of me and then attempting to add it all up without a calculator.

A Thai attempting maths without their Casio?

I know, I'm always bemused, but maybe she comes from a generation before calculators. I don't see her younger staff using calculators either though

Sadly though, out of the 30 or so times I've been there she's got it wrong on around 15 of those occasions, but as I said, always asking for too little. (Or maybe my mental arithmetic isn't as good as I think it is and I pay her too much!)

[Blinky Bill]

There's a restaurant I go to quite regularly where the only staff member brave enough to talk to me, even though I speak to them in Thai, is the old woman owner and she tots up the bill by writing it down in front of me and then attempting to add it all up without a calculator.

A Thai attempting maths without their Casio?

I know, I'm always bemused, but maybe she comes from a generation before calculators. I don't see her younger staff using calculators either though

Sadly though, out of the 30 or so times I've been there she's got it wrong on around 15 of those occasions, but as I said, always asking for too little. (Or maybe my mental arithmetic isn't as good as I think it is and I pay her too much!)

There were and I'm sure still are, a few places around where the Thai-Chinese owners still use an abacus, and with great accuracy I might add. One place comes to mind is the now closed timber yard on the Doi Saket Road just outside the Super Highway.

[ChiangMaiFun]

Here is my grievance, I ordered two small Leo in the open-air Van next to Spicy, Chaing Mai. Myself and my Thai girlfriend for about 3 months. It was 4am but I had only been drinking since 2am, and still had my sense's.

The bill came with the drinks for 120 baht. I gave 1,020 B, expecting to recieve my change of 900 baht, once I had returned from the toilet. My girlfriend handed me only 380 baht. I asked about the remainder, but she hadn't noticed that I had given more. I thought about this for a minute, counted my money showing my girlfriend that I was about 500 baht short. I remember vividly handing over 1020, as this is an unusual amount (thinking it would make it easier to change).

I went to the bar and my girlfriend followed me, by her own accord. I told this to what appeared to be managment (an older Thai woman), poliety and calmly, but not expecting a good response.

I found the waitress and she told me I had given her only 500 baht!

This was not a long discussion. As my girlfriend said "mai chai" the Thai man, managment at the bar tried to attack her, hitting her on the back of the head. We were told to Go "falang always make problem like this only for 500 baht".

I didn't want to fight because I knew, from experience, it would be a losing battle and i didn't want my girlfriend to get hurt.

Has any body else heard or experienced this at the Van bar, or anywhere else in Chiang Mai? What was the outcome?

Horrible experience but not worth the agro... but never, ever walk off and leave the situation then come back and say 'hey' - get your change then go for a pee - has happened rarely with me and vote with your feet - fighting? forget it.

Thanks for alerting us and hopefully NONE of us will go there so he won't have to worry about us 'farangs' again!

[Paagai]

There's a restaurant I go to quite regularly where the only staff member brave enough to talk to me, even though I speak to them in Thai, is the old woman owner and she tots up the bill by writing it down in front of me and then attempting to add it all up without a calculator.

A Thai attempting maths without their Casio?

Once I did like the OP, hand over say 1030 Baht for something costing 630 and they used the calulator to work out the change........................duh!

[caf]

Great video, Donnyboy. Thanks. I had to watch it twice to see what hit the guy. He went down from only one punch. I thought it might have been a pool cue, but it was just some tough Thai guy's fist... right on the button. The English bloke went down in a heap from one blow.

dinphangan was obviously just joking with his comment. Unfortunately, booze seems to bring out the worst in people and a normally reasonable guy can turn into a looney-tunes with too many beer in him.

And, as foreigners, we ALWAYS have to remember where we are. It ain't the UK or an American bar we are in. Thais do somethings differently.

They seem to be recording lots of "great" videos lately, don't they?

I wonder why this one was recorded. It isn't the Englishman that is shown in a bad light. Hit from behind, kicked when down.

[miltonbentley]

It isn't the Englishman that is shown in a bad light. Hit from behind, kicked when down.

Really Caf? You really have spent too long in Wetherspoon pubs if you think this is the case. Watch the video again.

In the first sentence the Englishman threatens to have the bar 'done over tomorrow'

He appears to be drunk, he is the first person to lose his temper, the first person to threaten violence and offers an implicitly violent threat. Not one of the words he utters or any of his actions show him in any positive light whatsoever. He looks every inch the typical English thug to me and I am sure to the Thais who work in that bar.

In contrast the Thai guy who appears to some kind of manager appears sober and seems to be conciliatory offering some kind of solution to the dispute. He even says he doesn't understand.

When the English guy loses it he is pushed away from the 'manager' presumably by a member of staff who is almost certainly trying to get a man who has lost his temper away from his boss. He then offers his general threatening challenge and is promptly hit from the side, not behind as you have it, putting him down. Threat eliminated.

He takes a couple of kicks which I agree are totally over the top but this is rapidly stopped by cooler heads.

For the life of me I cannot understand how anyone could see that video differently and to think that the Englishman's behaviour is not shown in a bad light is symptomatic of a country whose pubs and bars have been turned into a battlezone for preening young thugs every weekend.

Edited July 27, 2009 by miltonbentley

[caf]

It isn't the Englishman that is shown in a bad light. Hit from behind, kicked when down.

Really Caf? You really have spent too long in Wetherspoon pubs if you think this is the case. Watch the video again.

In the first sentence the Englishman threatens to have the bar 'done over tomorrow'

He appears to be drunk, he is the first person to lose his temper, the first person to threaten violence and offers an implicitly violent threat. Not one of the words he utters or any of his actions show him in any positive light whatsoever. He looks every inch the typical English thug to me and I am sure to the Thais who work in that bar.

In contrast the Thai guy who appears to some kind of manager appears sober and seems to be conciliatory offering some kind of solution to the dispute. He even says he doesn't understand.

When the English guy loses it he is pushed away from the 'manager' presumably by a member of staff who is almost certainly trying to get a man who has lost his temper away from his boss. He then offers his general threatening challenge and is promptly hit from the side, not behind as you have it, putting him down. Threat eliminated.

He takes a couple of kicks which I agree are totally over the top but this is rapidly stopped by cooler heads.

For the life of me I cannot understand how anyone could see that video differently and to think that the Englishman's behaviour is not shown in a bad light is symptomatic of a country whose pubs and bars have been turned into a battlezone for preening young thugs every weekend.

My reply was not directed at you particularly but you clearly have a grudge against Wetherspoon rather than English pubs generally. Why was a video being made?

There are good and bad pubs, good and bad managers: but please leave your bias and emotional language to one side.

The topic is about short-changing not bar brawls.

Would you accept the Thai way is not to fight one on one or do you have some vendetta against english yobs as I think you called them because of a personal experience.

Anyway that was all in 2002. But even in 2002 that would not have been tolerated by Wetherspoon management.

If a Thai bar has problems like this it is in the first instance up to the manager to sort. If it is a chain pass it to senior management.

[Blinky Bill]

My reply was not directed at you particularly but you clearly have a grudge against Wetherspoon rather than English pubs generally. Why was a video being made?

There are good and bad pubs, good and bad managers: but please leave your bias and emotional language to one side.

The topic is about short-changing not bar brawls.

Would you accept the Thai way is not to fight one on one or do you have some vendetta against english yobs as I think you called them because of a personal experience.

Anyway that was all in 2002. But even in 2002 that would not have been tolerated by Wetherspoon management.

If a Thai bar has problems like this it is in the first instance up to the manager to sort. If it is a chain pass it to senior management.

Come on caf, get real. Everyman and his dog has a mobile phone with a video camera these days. Almost every incident on earth these days is being covered by some sort of media.

Miltonbentley has many, many years experience in running pubs in the UK and if you knew him, you'd realise what a nice guy he is and you'd also know he is not one to exaggerate. I'm sure he has had to put up with many dickheads such as the idiot in the video. It's not you as the star in this video by any chance is it?

Actually the yobbo in the video got off very lightly, lucky I guess.

[Donnyboy]

If a Thai bar has problems like this it is in the first instance up to the manager to sort. If it is a chain pass it to senior management.

in this case it looked like the "problem was knocked on the head"

game over

[Chris84]

In the video, i think the guy was asking for something, but was obviously hammered. The first punch was quite funny, but you could just see that they wouldn't stop at that. It seems more acceptable to kick people in head over here, to finish someone off, maybe to stop a revenge attack. I don't know the thinking behind it, I haven't got the same mentality, and wouldn't do it, especially if I had all my buddies to back me up, as was the case in the video. If this had happened in Europe, the guy that kicked him would probably have been charged with affray and serious bodily harm. My friend did the same thing in my home town, and got 2 years prison. I wounder where this bar is, and if the guy made a recovery?