Hillary Clinton Arrives In Bangkok, En Route To Asean Meet

[TAWP]

That said, the Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Aung San Suu Kyi presently is on trial in Burma for winning a landslide election in 1991 and thereafter being placed under house arrest by the fascist generals in charge. Now the generals are going to throw her in a filthy rotten prison to wither and die, finally out of their way forever.

Apart from the Burmese generals being clear-cut Socialists...

[animatic]

A thousand toilet seats at $500 per for the Navy made big headlines a few years back, which is one hellova markup. That's one recent instance of fraud, abuse and waste in the US military budget. Meanwhile US troops in Iraq were given ill fitting protective vests which they could not use because of fraud and malfeasance, not to mention have to ride in humvees anyone with a cherry bomb could puncture.

You obviously have no clue about congressional budget appropriation, defense contracting, and design/build/test requirements for one component or another, or you would understand how congressional interference and procurement requirements cause these costs to escalate. I've been there and done that. The costs get out of control and poor equipment gets ordered because the Congress and other government bureacrats can't avoid micro-managing so many things. Yet you use the bureacracy as an example to take a cheap shot at the men and women in service.

Why don't you just admit that you are an anti-American leftist bigot? Again you purposely avoid responding to my posts because you have nothing substantial to say. Why does it kill you to acknowledge all of the positive things that the US and American military servicemen and servicewomen have done for the benefit of the civilized world? You seem to be just another agitator at heart, like the Bamster you seem to adore.

I've had enough of this thread and enough of you and your associate.

Totally incorrect and a damned lie,

I went out of my way to separate the men and women on the line of fire

from the idiots upstream in safe offices lying to us to start wars.

I HAVE worked for government contracting computer companies

and have seen the idiocy of paperwork demanded.

And know it still was unnecessary boondoggles to often.

I AM American and not a leftist bigot.

Centrist works and anything but a bigot.

I am against blatant mean spirited stupidity.

SO... you call me anti-american...

proving you are clueless about me or my point of view.

I pay my taxes in USA, in advance.

I vote without a doubt, and go to great lengths to do so.

Registered Republican for primaries. Doubt you believe that. And don't care.

My ancestor FOUNDED a USA State, nay colony, was a bit farther back PRE revolution.

My late mother and sister are Daughters of The American Revolution. Not Mayflower a later safer ship.

But close enough. My family has 316+ YEARS in America, how about yours?

Father was Army, spent much of the war in hospital.

My uncle was Harvard, and Navy and 30 years at State Department consular corps.

I am NOT a jingoist, parochail, knee'jerk conservative who equates disputing

illogical leadership decisions with demeaning soldiers and those gone in harms way.

Your assumption is baseless from my writings, and INSULTING, besides being wrong.

I ignore many of your posts because they are of such little interest most of the time.

Or must I be SOOOOO interested in your train of thoughts, that I should respond always?

choochoo choochoo Charlie.

Oh, by the way, I grew up with WWII vets one was a POW for 3 years.

And mom drove ambulances during the war too. Grandpa was army procurement.

Other grandpa was in WW1 trenches, never knew him.

I have friends who were in Korea and Nam and two in special forces up country,

who don't talk about it much, but used to take me to the shooting range with a Mini-M14.

I had 3 friends in DS1, Sharpshooters and demolition, one was also in Grenada and Panama..

and have a young lady friend in iraq for a 3rd tour of DS2 NOW... I wish her best luck.

So clearly your bilious comment is foolishly aimed at a different poster than me.

I have traveled and live many places and learned there are more valid points of view

than JUST "my country right or wrong" or blindly accepting stupidities in your face

in the alleged name of jingoist, patriotic fervor. Nor is a fearful, conservative

'sheepl'e point of view conducive to participatory democracy.

You don't like that? Tough nuts.

[animatic]

It's been 24 hours since I made the above post yet all I see of the guy who provoked it is his back side...with a yellow streak down it plainly in view.

I believe that Spee has already mentioned that he'll be declining any such further discussion and debate {and your associates }......not that such thought has much to do with the seemingly patriot/anti-patriot seesaw thread, but your subliminal insistence on using military experience as a cure all for everything might make some wonder. Akin to a national religion, sort to speak. These indoctrinated ideals of military worship and romanticism are quite lame. Some wiser circles might find the foundation to honour a militarism as backward and barbaric, as one simply transfers one's civility to an atomosphear of fear. Dronish mercenaries for the state. Without recall and independent thought. I might add....very American. Semper Fi, Dude.

Well you see, I know Publicus's age and this is one were military service

still had a positive pre-Vietnam patina to it. I was just in Viet Nam 2 weeks ago.

It seems more forgotten there than in American conservative circles...

It was only brought up because Spee was being insulting and utterly incorrect,

and so he gets facts.

Though Pub and I met here, we have found, in spite of our age differences,

we have known several people and places in common, and I knew of his work.

Both in politically government spheres and journalisticly.

I read a paper he wrote for, and know people he worked for back in the day.

Neither of us is a worshiper of militarism, war is to be avoided if at all possible.

MOST soldiers feel the same way, their leaders are not always as circumspect it seems.

Spee has been the one flouting the military issues and being insulting in the process,

while being wrong TWICE on the personal basis in the process. Rather sad that.

Pub was talking rather informatively about the situation in Burma.

And my recent experiences there, and people I know still living there

don't refute anything he is saying.

Spee seems to have his Rush Limbaugh back up and can't stand alternate opinions .

Sounds rather redshirt too...

We've had 8 years of Neocon madness, time for a change

and hopefully rehabilitate the nations image a bit. It's amazing how the attitude

of the man at the top can change world wide perceptions with a short time.

But longer lasting sea change does take concerted efforts and we have a lot of

CRAP to expunge from the last few years. I DO see it lightening up this year finally.

Less blind hatred towards yanks just for being yanks.. a Bushie legacy to live down.

Semper fi, : nothing wrong with that bit of latin.

Or more properly Semper Fidelis = Always Faithful.

this phrase has served as a slogan for many families and entities,

in many countries, dating at least as far back as the 14th century.

Families and Individuals

* Lynch family (Ireland): Semper Fidelis is the family motto of the Lynch Family. The Lynches were one of the Tribes of Galway who were fourteen merchant families who dominated the political, commercial, and social life of the city of Galway in western Ireland between the 13th and 16th centuries. Members of the 'Tribes' were considered Old English gentry, and distinguished themselves from the Gaelic peoples who lived in the hinterland of the city. The Lynches were descended from William Le Petit who was one of the Norman knights who settled in Ireland following the grant of Ireland as a fiefdom by Pope Adrian IV to King Henry II of England in the early 12th century. Semper Fidelis appears on the Lynch Family coat of arms. Although the earliest traceable reference to its doing so is James Hardiman's history of Galway published in 1820, the history of the family makes it likely that the motto was in use by the 14th or 15th century.

* Edge family (England): The Edge family of Strelley, Nottinghamshire, were using the motto "Semper fidelis" by, at the latest, 1814 (see UK National Archives document reference DD/E/209/32-34).

Cities

Exeter

The City of Exeter, in Devon, England, has used the motto since at least 1660, when it appears in a manuscript of the local chronicler, Richard Izacke. Izacke claimed that the motto was adopted in 1588, to signify the city's loyalty to the English Crown. According to Izacke, it was Queen Elizabeth I who suggested that the city adopt this motto (perhaps in imitation of her own motto, Semper eadem, "Ever the same"); her suggestion is said to have come in a letter to "the Citizens of Exeter," in recognition of their gift of money toward the fleet that had defeated the Spanish Armada. John Hooker's map of Exeter of around 1586 shows the city's coat of arms without the motto, suggesting that the city's use of the motto is no older than this. However the city archives do not hold any letter relating to the motto, and Grey (2005) argues that the Elizabethan origin of the motto may be no more than a local myth, since it is not recorded in contemporary chronicles, and that it may have been adopted at the Restoration of the Stuart monarchy to compensate for the city's less than total loyalty to the crown during the English Civil War.

* The motto is also used by the Royal Navy warship HMS Exeter, which is named after the City of Exeter.

* The motto has been used by various Exeter-based units of the British Army, see below.

* There is a Masonic Lodge in Exeter, called "Lodge Semper Fidelis."

Lviv

The motto "Semper fidelis" is applied to the Ukrainian city of Lviv (in Latin, "Leopolis"; formerly Lwów in Polish) in 1658 by Pope Alexander VII in recognition of the city's key role in defending Europe from Muslim invasion. That same year, the Sejm (parliament) of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth passed the Semper fidelis Poloniae ["Ever Faithful to Poland"] Act (as most people construed the Latin phrase).

Curiously, both Leopolis and Exeter, in addition to sharing the same motto, featured a three-turreted castle on their coats-of-arms. This is apparently a coincidence.

Today, in Poland, the motto is referenced mainly in connection with the Polish-Ukrainian War of 1919, following the collapse of Austro-Hungary in the wake of World War I, and more especially in connection with the Polish-Bolshevik War that followed.

In Ukraine, the phrase is much less used, in reference to the survival of the Ukrainian Church through the period of Soviet persecution.

St. Malo

"Semper fidelis" is the motto of the town of St. Malo, in Brittany, France; the date of its adoption is not known,

but it appears to have been in use in the 17th century

Been there.

White Plains

"Semper Fidelis" is the motto of the city of White Plains, in New York, United States. font="Comic Sans MS"]Been there.[/font]

Martial

The Devonshire Regiment and antecedents

The 1st (Exeter and South Devon) Rifle Volunteer Corps, raised in Exeter in 1852, was using the motto on its cap badge by 1860 at the latest; the Illustrated London News reported its use in its 7th January 1860 issue The motto was continued by The Devonshire Regiment of the British Army, the 11th of foot, on its formation from the South and North Devon militias in 1881. The motto was further continued on the badges of the Devonshire and Dorset Regiment when the Devonshires were amalgamated into them in 1958. This use of the motto evidently derives from these regiments' close connection with the city of Exeter, where they had a base from their foundation (see the Illustrated London News article referenced above) until their disappearance by amalgamation in 2007.

The West Nova Scotia Regiment

Semper fidelis is the motto of The West Nova Scotia Regiment (of the Canadian Forces), formed in 1936. It inherited the motto from The Lunenburg Regiment, formed in 1870.

Cadetcorps of the Dutch Royal Military Academy

Semper fidelis is also the motto of the cadets corps from the Dutch Royal Military Academy. The corps was founded in 1879.

The United States Marine Corps

The United States Marine Corps adopted the motto Semper Fidelis in 1883, on the initiative of Colonel Charles McCawley (January 29 1827 – October 13 1891), the 8th Commandant of the Marine Corps.

There were three mottos prior to Semper Fidelis including

"Fortitudine" (meaning "with courage") antedating the War of 1812,

"Per Mare, Per Terram" ("by sea, by land";

presumably inherited from the British Royal Marines, whose motto it already was),

Which is my familial moto by the way.

and, up until 1843, there was also the motto

"To the Shores of Tripoli". "Semper fidelis" signifies the dedication and loyalty that individual Marines have for "Corps and Country", even after leaving service. Marines frequently shorten the motto to "Semper Fi".

* "Semper Fidelis" is also the title of the official march of the United States Marine Corps, composed by John Philip Sousa in 1889. Sousa was director of the United States Marine Band ("The President's Own") when a replacement for Hail to the Chief was requested, but later rejected. Sousa considered it to be his "most musical" march. It was prominently featured in the movie A Few Good Men. Charles Burr wrote the Semper Fidelis.

* On the United States Marine Corps Seal, the eagle of the Eagle, Globe, and Anchor emblem holds a ribbon emblazoned "Semper Fidelis".

Canadian Forces Base Valcartier

Semper fidelis is the motto of CFB Valcartier. The base was originally erected as a military camp in August 1914.

Swiss Grenadier Regiment

Semper fidelis is the motto of a Swiss Grenadier regiment formed in 1943. There was no Grenadier Regiment in 1943. The Grenadiers only formed one company in each infantry regiment.

The Republic of China Marine Corps

Semper Fidelis (Chinese:永遠忠誠) is the motto of the Republic of China Marine Corps since April 1, 1947.

Hungarian Government Guard

Semper Fidelis is the official motto of the Köztársasági Őrezred since 28 August 1998.

Military Institute of Engineering, Brazilian Army

Semper Fidelis is the motto of the 1st company of the Brazilian Military Institute of Engineering.

Serviciul de Protecţie şi Pază

The Romanian Protection and Guard Service, an organisation which is concerned about national security and personal security of officials in Romania.

Submarine Force, Chilean Navy

Semper Fidelis is the motto of the Submarine Force of Chilean Navy.

As you can see while rightly used in martial groups,

it is far from solely the US Marine corps sole possesion

Edited August 1, 2009 by animatic

[Publicus]

It's been 24 hours since I made the above post yet all I see of the guy who provoked it is his back side...with a yellow streak down it plainly in view.

I believe that Spee has already mentioned that he'll be declining any such further discussion and debate {and your associates }......not that such thought has much to do with the seemingly patriot/anti-patriot seesaw thread, but your subliminal insistence on using military experience as a cure all for everything might make some wonder. Akin to a national religion, sort to speak. These indoctrinated ideals of military worship and romanticism are quite lame. Some wiser circles might find the foundation to honour a militarism as backward and barbaric, as one simply transfers one's civility to an atomosphear of fear. Dronish mercenaries for the state. Without recall and independent thought. I might add....very American. Semper Fi, Dude.

TVF members can read the several immediate posts slightly above between Spee and I to see the whole of the exchanges. We also can thereby recognize when a poster has been overwhelmed and storms out of the room and slams the door behind him in a fit of exasperation. We further can recognize when a poster has mouthpieces speaking for him thereby trying to shield him because he knows he's grossly wrong, out of his league and imperiously self rightous to boot.

The poster pee who tries to impune my bone fides to my country owes me a manly response which recognizes the balanced totality of my decidedly civilian service to my country and my loyalty to my country. I'll not respond substantively to surrogate mouthpieces who try to distort and indeed mangle my statements in the attempt to deflect from the offensive and wrongheaded posts about me by Spee and thereby allow him to less than courageously avoid and evade his responsibility to account for his indiscrete and truly offensive ramblings and ragings.

Spee, you masculinely are obligated to come forward. Indeed, you are well overdue in doing so. If you need to come forward with your two excuse making mouthpieces to comprise a group of three then all of you are welcome to respond in that way. I'd look forward to dealing with the three of you together and simultanously. As long as you, yourself Spee do in fact come forward from your less than courageous and cowering retreat to account for yourself.

[Publicus]

Actually PRChina might be stirring to resolve the Burma situation with cooperation from ASEAN and the US, not to mention the UN and other groupings such as the EU.

Regime change in in Burma may be in the offing before too long, which helps to explain why the fascist generals have delayed the verdict in the bogus trial of Nobel Peace Laureate Aung San Suu Kyi to August 11th (I'll be in Bkk on that date). Consider:

1) The leadership of PRChina have concluded that the generals in Burma are incompetent and pose a regional danger to China.

2) PRChina already has lost its grip on N Korea, giving it one rogue nuclear neighbor that threatens peace and stability in the region.

3) N Korea and Russia are selling nuclear technology to Burma, which Burma now can afford to pay for given the new income it's getting from natural gas. PRChina doesn't need or want another rogue nuclear state at its border.

4) China has serious border problems with Burma pertaining to drugs such as opium and heroin, AIDS and insurgents battling the Burmese government from China as well as northern Burma.

5) During last year's uprising by the monks in Burma, China publically urged restraint and signed a petition with the EU and ASEAN urging Burma to release Suu KYi from house arrest.

6) China approved the visit last month of UN Sec Gen Ban Ki Moon to Burma in another unsuccessful attempt to get Suu Kyi released from house arrest. Moon could not have made the trip without China's signing off on it.

7) China, the US, EU and ASEAN agree that their economic and geopolitical interests in Burma and in SEAsia, as well as in East Asia could be better served if the Junta in Burma were gone.

8) PRChina is exploring the "Mandella Option" for Burma in cooperation with the West. In the case of South Africa, the US and especially the UK and other Western countries supported aparthied governments because of the fear of chaos that a majority black government would cause in the country and region. Then came Nelson Mandella freed from prison to assemble an impressive team for government, a team that offered the Western powers a better long term prospect of protecting their interests than an aparthied government could ever offer or do.

9) Thus free Suu Kyi to be elected leader of a more rational and peaceful Burma which would be better positioned to protect and further Western economic interests, provide PRChina with stability in SEAsia against the eventual presence of another rogue nuclear state, while allowing Suu Kyi simultaneously to develop Burma itself to include democracy.

The times they're a changin'. Indeed, without support from PRChina, Burma would be effectively isolated within the ASEAN community and cut adrift from China. There may be a transformation of Burma in the making along the historic lines of the transformation we saw in South Africa.

That would be great.

http://foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/07/...e_cat_diplomacy

Edited August 3, 2009 by Publicus

[animatic]

That couldn't be better, only sooner.

[Publicus]

I would add the following link about Burma's nuclear program.

The link below focuses on how and in the ways N Korea is providing nuclear technology to Burma's military regime. Just think, a nuclear state in South East Asia.

Think of how thrilled India would be and by extension Pakistan, not to mention the Thais.

Russian nuclear assistance to Burma also is mentioned in the link. Indeed, Russia already is contructing the nuclear facilities in Iran which will be good for peace and stability in the Middle East not to mention the world--NOT!. Russia is a signatory to the Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty but who would know it on the basis of these actions.

Imagine the thrills and chills all of us can have as Iran and Burma draw closer together. N Korea already has assisted Pakistan to obtain its nuclear weapons and recently has begun to enable Burma too. Yes, nukes in Burma at the hands of a paranoid military regime similar to that in N Korea. Makes the PRC thrilled too to have two rogue nuclear states at opposite borders and increasingly beyond its control.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009...alarm?page=full

Edited August 3, 2009 by Publicus

[zzaa09]

I would add the following link about Burma's nuclear program.

The link below focuses on how and in the ways N Korea is providing nuclear technology to Burma's military regime. Just think, a nuclear state in South East Asia.

Think of how thrilled India would be and by extension Pakistan, not to mention the Thais.

Russian nuclear assistance to Burma also is mentioned in the link. Indeed, Russia already is contructing the nuclear facilities in Iran which will be good for peace and stability in the Middle East not to mention the world--NOT!. Russia is a signatory to the Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty but who would know it on the basis of these actions.

Imagine the thrills and chills all of us can have as Iran and Burma draw closer together. N Korea already has assisted Pakistan to obtain its nuclear weapons and recently has begun to enable Burma too. Yes, nukes in Burma at the hands of a paranoid military regime similar to that in N Korea. Makes the PRC thrilled too to have two rogue nuclear states at opposite borders and increasingly beyond its control.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009...alarm?page=full

The nuclear rogue states that one needs to be concerned with are the mad hatters that are well supplied with 100 fold warheads then they really need. Nothing stable nor logical about these war states.

[caf]

Clinton has made clear her views and the views of the international community on what's happening in Burma. that's all she can do diplomatically.

thailand's problem is that it relies heavily on Burma ( eg electricity) has close business contacts and a long land border. it must be pragmatic. she knows that .

[Publicus]

The Mandella Option would satisfy all parties sufficiently. That includes Thailand, ASEAN, PRChina, the US, EU, the UN Security Council and the UN General Assembly itself.

Burma with Suu Kyi as elected leader could then conduct geoeconomics and geopolitics as a normal state, a nuclear free developing country instead of being one of the world's 20 poorest countries and a nuclear one too.

Remember that next year the more normal South Africa hosts the World Cup. A normal Burma would more than satisfy Thailand's business interests and Thailand's financial interconnectivity to there. Business and politics between Thailand and Burma actually could be conducted above board and with greater transparency. Who do you think Thailand would rather deal with in Burma, a nuclear military dictatorship or a peaceful democratic government lead by Suu Kyi? The PRC is making its choice now and it's not the generals.

The regime change being discussed would mean no introduction of nukes by foreign powers to SEAsia.

Moreover, the Burma of the present is serving as the catalyist by which the major global players mentioned above are finding another basis of coopertion and agreement in geopolitics and geoeconomics.

It helps in this to also be able to see the forest too instead of only a single tree.

Edited August 4, 2009 by Publicus

[zzaa09]

Understand that her boy was able to 'negotiate' {yeah...sure} the freedom of those 2 American journalists today from NK.

[Spee]

It's been 24 hours since I made the above post yet all I see of the guy who provoked it is his back side...with a yellow streak down it plainly in view.

Well, for starters, swabbies don't take orders from ground pounders. Yes, I too am an honorably discharged enlisted man. My service was in the nuclear power field of the US Navy. Enough said.

Second, don't misinterpret absence for lack of interest or being fed up with a thread gone awry. Contrary to popular opinion and apparently unlike some others, I do have a life outside of TVF. If my priorities don't suit one or more individuals, then they can put a punch in their t.s. card.

As for the incessant rantings from the likes of Animatic, there is only drone behavior, no dialog, just like the Chicago thug politicians he chooses to place upon a pedestal and worship. Bush was no prize, especially the last two years. But Barry and his thugs and czars executing the Alinsky playbook are hardly good for American citizens or the rest of the civilized world either.

As for the things I wrote earlier about Publicus being a bigot and anti-American, such things were inappropriate and based upon his statements, not an accurate representation of his person or sentiments. For that I apologize to him and him alone. Sometimes the words we hate the most are the ones we can't take back.

[animatic]

It's been 24 hours since I made the above post yet all I see of the guy who provoked it is his back side...with a yellow streak down it plainly in view.

...As for the incessant rantings from the likes of Animatic, there is only drone behavior, no dialog, just like the Chicago thug politicians he chooses to place upon a pedestal and worship. .....

As for the things I wrote earlier about Publicus being a bigot and anti-American, such things were inappropriate and based upon his statements, not an accurate representation of his person or sentiments. For that I apologize to him and him alone. Sometimes the words we hate the most are the ones we can't take back.

Yes, certainly inappropriate.

Except you called me those insults and not him,

and my credentials as a good American more than stand up.

So you think it IS ok to call me a bigot and anti-American... that's pathetic.

You impugn my patriotism and my right to free speech.

Then you call me a drone and like a thug.

You don't like my politics fine, I don't like yours either,

but be civil.

Edited August 5, 2009 by animatic

[Publicus]

It's been 24 hours since I made the above post yet all I see of the guy who provoked it is his back side...with a yellow streak down it plainly in view.

Well, for starters, swabbies don't take orders from ground pounders. Yes, I too am an honorably discharged enlisted man. My service was in the nuclear power field of the US Navy. Enough said.

Second, don't misinterpret absence for lack of interest or being fed up with a thread gone awry. Contrary to popular opinion and apparently unlike some others, I do have a life outside of TVF. If my priorities don't suit one or more individuals, then they can put a punch in their t.s. card.

As for the incessant rantings from the likes of Animatic, there is only drone behavior, no dialog, just like the Chicago thug politicians he chooses to place upon a pedestal and worship. Bush was no prize, especially the last two years. But Barry and his thugs and czars executing the Alinsky playbook are hardly good for American citizens or the rest of the civilized world either.

As for the things I wrote earlier about Publicus being a bigot and anti-American, such things were inappropriate and based upon his statements, not an accurate representation of his person or sentiments. For that I apologize to him and him alone. Sometimes the words we hate the most are the ones we can't take back.

It's because of human imperfection that the apology exists as a major means by which damaged interaction can be repaired and mutual respect restored or indeed initiated. Your apology to me is well and honorably done; it's done with feeling and is commendabe. In my time I've made a few apologies myself so I can recognize a genuine apology when I see one. Accordingly and with modesty, I do accept your apology.

It's healthy to air out these matters. Which is why I forgive your having been a swab jockey if you can forgive my having been a grunt. My kid brother went Navy in ASW, a lapse of judgement which I overlooked years ago . When I worked in the Congress in Washinton I pulled a few strings for him to accommodate his wish to be assigned to a base duty station (near home) rather than at sea, for which he was grateful as there's no better place than on dry land.

As for animatic, he self-identifies as an "observer" as he clearly states in his left upper corner info sketch. Reading his posts shows he indeed offers observations, commentary and insights; he writes in his own distinguished artistic style which adds diversity and expands the dimension of the TVF experience to each of us. Agree or disagree with his point of view and presentations, as you do and some others may, one regardless would be hard pressed in the extreme to argue that animatic is uncivil towards posters. Very hard pressed indeed. As you in your earlier statement seem to consider animatic and I to be "associates," perhaps you and he might consider a beer summit (if only figuratively) to clarify that his loyalty and genuine citizenship is not in question either.

It's a certainty you and I will continue to disagree but I would suggest there now is a basis to agree to disagree.

Cheers.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Publicus

[Publicus]

Understand that her boy was able to 'negotiate' {yeah...sure} the freedom of those 2 American journalists today from NK.

Bill Clinton spent a total of 3 hours and 15 minutes face to face with Kim Jong Il, to include a state dinner (as if Clinton were still prez). Kim clearly is ailing but we haven't had any firsthand observation or interaction with Kim that could indicate the cause of Kim's ailments or of his present mental and physical condition. Bill Clinton is the only Western luminary to spend in person time with Kim in the Dear Leader's present condition of health.

Bill Clinton got to assess the appearance and health of Kim in person and to read the body language of both Kim and the syncophants who surround Kim. Clinton was thoroughly prepped by medical experts in the US concerning indicators Kim could exhibit about the state of Kim's health. Does it appear Kim suffered a stroke as suspected? A heart attack? Etc. Does Kim appear impeded in his mental or physically processes? If so, in which ways specifically? Etc.

B.C. also presented the message that N Korea can gain beneifit if it releases capitives it has from S Korea and Japan. Clinton reiterated the need of denuclearization in northeast Asia.

AND B Clinton also returned triumphantly to the US with the two Asian-American journalists who'd been imprisoned while doing a story at the N Korean border. Pres Obama for his part showed he doesn't at all mind taking a low profile to quietly direct important matters of national security and to aid two US citizens held captive by a hostile foreign government.

Score this one as a win.

[animatic]

Absolutely a win.

And it is clear that this face time gave Kim the FACE he needed to open up a notch.

It also shows Obama as a flexible thinker willing to work outside the box,

to enlarge the box on both practical and personal/humanitarian ways.

What this world most needs is flexibility not intransigence. That doesn't mean

giving away the farm or diminishing everyone's security. But it does mean

looking at different ways to the same goal with less negative repercussions into the future,

and smoothing over old inter-nation/inter-personal loggerheads for the good of all.

It is also a move Bush couldn't have tried, even if he could get past his loathing of Clinton.

It will be interesting to hear the FoxNews take on this. Will Rush be apoplectic with opprobrium?

One can suspect Kim is thinking of his legacy these days ,and those around him

are thinking of their coming change of positions. Maybe making loud noises in the

old style to look more strong in Kim's fading eyes, hoping for a nice bump upward,

before the curtain falls and the infighting commences...

But with the uber-boss still there in consciousness, they dare not do ANYTHING obvious,

I also suspect they wonder about his moods and humors; little cat feet please.

This maybe well be Kim's Last Hurah on the world stage the last meeting with anyone

of extraordinary stature on the world stage. He must have slept well that night.

And Clinton must have had quite the debriefing on the plane after that rubber chicken dinner.

Edited August 6, 2009 by animatic

[sanmiguellight]

It also shows Obama as a flexible thinker willing to work outside the box,

Is there anything this 3rd coming hasnt got the credit for off the Che Guevara t-shirt wearing breed?

It is also a move Bush couldn't have tried, even if he could get past his loathing of Clinton.

Im not a septic but i seem to remember Clinton having a similar role under Bush jr .... pretty much all ex-Presidents have taken up such globe trotting/ negotiating roles .... except for Bush jr.

[Spee]

It also shows Obama as a flexible thinker willing to work outside the box,

to enlarge the box on both practical and personal/humanitarian ways.

Oh please give me a <deleted>' break. The only reason these two women got any visibility at all is because they work for ex-VP Al Gore. Last time I checked, I didn't see anyone else dashing off to Iran to resuce the Yanks banged up there (or anywhere else abroad for that matter).

Bill didn't go over there to barter a deal. The deal was already done before he left, or he wouldn't have left in the first place. Bill went over there for the sake of Bill's image, not to serve any great purpose than trying to further polish up his tarnished image.

Those stupid reporters gave that idiot tyrant a free chance to obtain a poker chip in the big world game, and some day Obama or some other American President is going to have to cash it. Nothing like continuing to reward stupidity. Getting those people out was good for their friends and families, obviously. But such moves hardly serve the greater good, in North Korea or America.

As for Barry's flexibility, that's a myth directly out of the Alinsky playbook, Rules for Radicals. Obama, Emanuel, Axelrod and the whole bunch are the least flexible people in the least flexible administration in the history of the country. A flexible guy doesn't send dead fish to political rivals, right Rahmbo? Back in the 60's, it was hip to protest the actions of a political administration. But not today.

According to Obama ally Pelosi, the present day protesters are akin to Nazis. ("They're carrying swastikas and symbols like that into a town meeting on healthcare.") Yeah, with that warped perspective, and blatant distortion of the truth, I'm sure she is a real flexible individual and leader.

She and Barry and all of the rest of the present day celeb politicos bring a saying from Hollywood to mind. Be nice to all the people you meet on the way up, because you're going to meet them again on the way down. They haven't figured ths out yet.

[Publicus]

1) It is impossible to imagine former prez George W. Bush as a global negotiator of reconciliation, peace or humanitarian causes. Former leaders must be of global stature; they must have the respect, trust and confidence of both leaders of nations and their populations. Dubya is the antithesis of such a person as Clinton.

2) Nobel Peace Laureate and former V-POTUS Al Gore was the credible first choice of Pres Obama to conduct the rescue mission to N Korea but Kim Jong Il wanted the stature of Bill Clinton. Who would even consider former V-POTUS Dick Cheney for such a mission or anything like it? Not only was Cheney the worst V-POTUS in history, he's the absolute worst former V-POTUS imaginable.

3) Former POTUS and the late Ronald Reagan in retirement was never considered for such a role nor did he ever conduct any such humanitarian missions, much less a mercy mission. One also needs to consider that Reagan already had begun to suffer from altzheimers before he'd left the White House. (Remember how Reagan wanted to change the Constitution to allow the president a 3rd term?!? That was a fart in church.)

4) Pres Obama recently secured the release of the Iranian-American journalist Roxana Saberi whom the ayatollas in Iran also had accused of "esponiage" but then released to return safely to the US, her head firmly on her shoulders. (What government in its right mind accuses a foreigner of esponiage then escorts the accused foreigner to the border?)

5) Right Wing lugnut 'Red Shirts' in the US continue to claim Pres Obama isn't a natural born citizen of the US, a lunatic question the US Supreme Court threw out before the crackpots making the racist claim could even take a seat in the US Supreme Court Chamber. (Hawaii state Health Department officials have repeatedly stated that O's birth certificate is on file there and long ago issued certified copies to the public.)

BTW, Sen John McCain was born in Panama. Because Sen McCain was born on a US military reservation he is a natural born citizen of the US; Sen McCain is a graduate of the US Naval Academy as was his father before him and as is his son. We don't hear Sen. McCain howling about any birth certificates, nor did we hear the US Red Shirts howl about it during the campaign. Certain Republicans in Congress are encouraging the Limbaugh Red Shirts. It's another right wing and Republican party fruitcake tangent from electoral oblivion to a completly innane irrelevance.

Edited August 7, 2009 by Publicus

[animatic]

"Birthers..."

used to mean mid-wifes in modern jargon.

Those helping with natural, drugless, or drug minimal, home births.

My how the neo-post-John-Birch-Lite right has twisted this word.

Much like their bastardization of Liberal.

As in Liberal Arts or Liberty and justice for all.

They have tried to make it a dirty word a shaming word.

But that only works for those true belivers on their own side of the fence.

Mugwaumps not allowed, only wumps on the side.

Like being a conservationist or conservator is so much different than conservative now.

The only thing worse is a moderate right? Pulling ideas from both sides in moderation,

and hated by both extremes. As if disagreeing with both extremes is tantamount to

Not taking a position. Only the hard left or hard right are correct.. not hardly.

Moderration is good for all, except to THOSE out on the ragged fringes of hard politics.

By the way, I have never owned nor worn as Che T-shirt.

I venture that MOST wearers have no CLUE what he was about.

Though I did watch the Motorcycle Diaries. An interesting film.

Didn't make me a convert or a Fellow Traveler.

Knowledge of many sides of an issue sets your free

from simplistic pseudo-theocratic philosophies that separate men and divide nations.

So you think Obama isn't really American eh? Not from your parish, so suspect eh?

While the greatest courts in the land, the functioning official offices of the states,

and the congress and attorney general have ALL uniformly stated Mr. Obama

is a proper American Citizen in good standing... oh yes,

AND President of The United States of America.

Birthers=ragged fringe.

There are some who STILL can't get their head around the idea that,

THEY WERE OUT VOTED for cause. And because of the right to free speech,

we have the opportunity hear them expound and axe-grind on their baseless theories.

But, it keeps them occupied unconstructively...better than destructively.

We seem to have tag team philosophy here,

sadly the counter-argument is so weak as to be pointless.

But vacations await and this will simmer down to a jot a speck a distant blip.

Som num na

Edited August 7, 2009 by animatic

[Spee]

1) It is impossible to imagine former prez George W. Bush as a global negotiator of reconciliation, peace or humanitarian causes.

I guess all of the major increases in support for Africa for AIDS, malaria, security, etc., driven forward by his administration were just pomp and circumstance.

http://www.heritage.org/research/africa/bg2204.cfm

Bush had his faults to be sure. But he re-established dignity and respect for the Presidential office, something that hill-Billy and Barry know nothing about. Bill getting BJ's under the table and Barry getting involved in local domestic disturbances is pretty indicative.

2) Nobel Peace Laureate and former V-POTUS Al Gore was the credible first choice ....

That's pretty funny considering the fact that "credible" and "Al Gore" have rarely met in the same sentence.

3) ... (Remember how Reagan wanted to change the Constitution to allow the president a 3rd term?!? That was a fart in church.)

I know this is a tough task, but can you provide a source? I know there is that nut-job left wing wacko congressman from New York who has introduced this still-born bill every year since God knows when. But when and where did Reagan actively petition the Congress to draft and pass such legislation?

4) Pres Obama recently secured the release of the Iranian-American journalist Roxana Saberi whom the ayatollas in Iran also had accused of "esponiage" but then released to return safely to the US

Is there no end to the amount of beltway spin that you will rigidly follow? I dislike the Iranian tyranny as much or more than the next guy, but let's keep the facts in perspective. The facts are that Ms. Saberi continued to actively practice journalism in a country that had revoked her permission to do so, TWICE!! Like it or not, she actively violated the country's laws twice and was put in prison for it. Call it guts. Call it stupidity. Whatever. But it is what it is. And again, the only reason she got visibility is because she has associations with state-run media (NPR and ABC). The three American hikers apparently made little more than a simple map-reading error and remain in Iranian custody.

Again, I fail to comprehend how such educated and experienced people seem to have a hard time keeping a rational perspective. In the game of poker, it is often acknowledged that players make more money off other peoples' mistakes than they do off of their own great plays. Barry has obviously never played poker before. The woman in Iran and the two women in North Korea didn't get released because Obama "made a great play." They got released because Obama "made a mistake" and allowed the two tyrannies to get positive publicity on the world stage.

5) Right Wing lugnut 'Red Shirts' in the US continue to claim Pres Obama isn't a natural born citizen of the US, a lunatic question the US Supreme Court threw out

Wow .... another county heard from .... straight out of the DNC playbook. Attack the majority by painting them in the colors of the lunatic fringe. I personally don't care a whoot about it, because the Supreme Court has made their decision. But since you introduced it, why doesn't Barry simply make public a copy of his original birth certificate, rather than the oft-publicized "certificate of live birth," which is not in fact, a birth certificate.

http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/obama_h.../06/244836.html

This fits a similar Obama pattern which has also seen fit to not release his undergraduate grades, his application and acceptance criteria for Harvard Law, and his courses and grades while at Harvard Law. None of this really makes a hill of beans in the grand scheme of things, because love him or loathe him, he will be President at least through January 2013. The point is that Barry could shut all of these people up by full disclosure, unless of course, he has something to hide. This was supposed to be the administration of transparency .... wasn't it?

By the way, contrary to recent reports and widely perceived views spun by the state-run media, Barry was NOT the first black editor of the Harvard Law Review. Look at the contrast of these two articles, one from the "horse's mouth" and one from the state run media. So in the context of the big TV game show "To Tell the Truth," which story do you believe? Who was the first black editor of the Harvard Law Review, Obama or Houston? Well ... we all know how the history books will be written, don't we? But will they be teaching fantasy or reality?

http://www.law.harvard.edu/news/bulletin/b...8/article4.html

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/02/06/us/first...law-review.html

Personally, I think this last part speaks volumes about Obama's arrogance, lack of modesty, lack of ethics, and chronic predeliction to lie and distort for political gain. If he were modest, humble and ethical, he would clearly have clarified the record and recognized Mr. Houston as the first, but he didn't. Yeah, he is transparent all right. When you take a closer look, you can see right through him.

Edited August 7, 2009 by Spee

[jayboy]

But since you introduced it, why doesn't Barry simply make public a copy of his original birth certificate, rather than the oft-publicized "certificate of live birth," which is not in fact, a birth certificate.

No sane person (a category which giving the benefit of the doubt includes Spee), even diehard Republican opponents, believe Obama was born other than in Hawaii.Officials in Hawaii have confirmed it is impossible for a person born outside the US to obtain a certificate of live birth stating that person was in fact born in the US.Yet Spee and his madder political kindred spirits in the US cannot bring themselves to acknowledge the truth and leave it there.Such a deception if you think about it would involve a conspiracy from the birth of Obama paving his road to the White House.

Heaven knows there are enough legitimate reasons to criticise the Obama administration both on economic policy and health care reform for example.

The rest of Spee's post is full of the same poisonous and irrelevant rubbish.Anyway it's a free country and the Rush Limbaugh tendency can say what they like.But over here don't be under the impression that Spee's package of smears is other than unsubstantiated bar talk.You can find a bunch of old timers mouthing this rubbish in Washington Square any day of the week

[animatic]

Bush had his faults to be sure. But he re-established dignity and respect for the Presidential office, something that hill-Billy and Barry know nothing about. Bill getting BJ's under the table and Barry getting involved in local domestic disturbances is pretty indicative.

And where have you lived the last 10 years, again???

In the world public's eyes and ears Bush did more to bring low the

DIGNITY and RESPECT of the Presidential office that any individual in my lifetime.

Bill Clinton was more respected world wide by far than Bush on his BEST day.

I have lived in Europe and Asia, as well as on USA soil, so I have a good perspective,

without having had to sign up as a socialist to get it.

No one in Europe cared a jot if Clinton had a girlfriend on the side as long as he did the job.

In Thailand they would question his abilities if he DIDN'T have one on the side...

He did do the job, even with horrendous extra-political distractions.

But that WAS the looney far-right's plan: if they can't kill him politically,

at least slow him down enough to be ineffectual. They didn't succeed,

but I imagine the good that could have come from him if this abysmal distraction set

had not been in play.

"Hilly Billy" you say: Well not many people of even hi-so families get to his level of international study.

Graduated from Georgetown University and in 1968, won a Rhodes Scholarship to Oxford University.

He received a law degree from Yale University in 1973

Right just a dim hillbilly eh.

Françoise Mitterand had a mistress for 23+ years, it was an open secret, the press ignored,

because it was deemed irrelevant to his job performance. Different cultures of course.

The relationship was self-outed when thier grown daughter went to his funeral in Jonsac,

giving tacit approval for discussion of this part of his life. Otherwise it was left alone.

Ultra-Rightist Austrian wingnut Jorge Hader was quite gay, but it had nothing to do with his performance

in the legislature, so it was ignored, until his death at high speed trying to chase down his lover

who had run off. No one cared to make it an issue prior. He had MORE than enough things to upbraid him about.

Most all Europeans at the time, and not JUST the French, thought the whole persecution of Clinton

for Lewinsky was utterly ludicrous, and without justification. "L'americaine sont fous!" "They are cazy to do this."

They also agreed that Lewinsky was blackmailed and betrayed by her 'so called friend',

in revenge for losing her job. A pathetic hatchet job, finally repudiated when the Senate declined to convict.

But a waste of MY taxpayer monies for an over the top get Clinton effort. White water ended with a whimper too.

What did Ken Starr ever accomplish besides be a black hole for government tax money?

Oh but these are Europeans are obviously not a people we need to worry about, just little countries.

They don't count, not being good Americans.... Well other than the Common market and the Euro taking

Dollar reserves away at a fast clip. I remember Americans laughing in the run up to the Euro:

why bother, more Ecu non-sense, was a much stated line.

So let's move to Asian shores. We have allies here too; Ausi's for instance, Singaporeans, Japanese,

N.Z. too. Oh and even Thailand. So how come I used to get nastily harangued in restaurants, bars

and private homes JUST FOR BEING AMERICAN, and thus presumed to be a card-carrying Bush Athletic Supporter. By Ausi's, Singaporeans and Japanese, assorted Europeans and some other Asians also too.

When the Japanese publicly YELL at strangers, something is badly wrong.

10 minutes later they and others would be apologizing to me, after listening to my words,

but never apologizing to the part of USA that voted for Bush. Still,they just finally realized

ALL yanks didn't agree with him.. But it has been so loudly trumpeted ;

'My country right or wrong', 'Our president is always right and you are unpatriotic to dispute him EVER'.

That many outside ~USA think that this is reality, and not one side's bully pulpit railings.

Oh, but wait, those OUTSIDE USA DON'T COUNT....

Well that was because Bush elevated the dignety and respect for the American Presidential Office

enough so that many non-Americans felt motivated to give a piece of their mind to 'total stranger

Americans', complaining like we ALL actually voted for the man.... 2/3rds didn't, just a larger minority stake.

Oh, but non-American's don't count in this world either, even if their government joins the 'coalition of the willing' for a bit. Jingoist claptrap of the far right. Rampant parochialism like; my football team can beat yours,

because we are from the RIGHT town. Real men don't eat quiche, unless you call it a cheese omlet with a crust.

Bush tried to hide his grades for a long time... cause they sucked, but daddy dearest had enough clout

that Jr never got booted for sloth. Jeb was the intended, but he blew off dad.

Idiot son got the job, with anal ramrod Cheney running things behind the scenes.

Dubya tried to hide his National guard service records even harder.

As to President Obama getting involved in a 'local dispute' well the victim in this dispute,

was a personal friend of Mr. Obama's going back many years. Oh sorry, you prefer to

let this guy twist in the wind, after being arrested in his own house, because his front door was jammed.

Friend's shouldn't help friends if they themselves are too important. Righty O.

Oh wait he's not white, I guess that's OK, the president should only comment on white injustices,

so as not to appear to be siding with the Afro-American community... Of which he is 50% a part of.

Though for some 10% African means ALL African, as if this changes thought processes.

Oh and this Harvard gentleman is also a tenured and internationally respected professor at Obama's Alma mater.

A respected PBS television personalty and documentary filmmaker.

Yes, no doubt several in this story over-reacted. But fatigue is the good Professors excuse,

just having returned from a China trip. What's that cops excuse? The didn't show enough respect I guess.

Obama no doubt was upset and spoke extemporaneously, and a bit too strongly, but in the end it has made the country think about it's race related issues in a constructive way. With a African-American president in office,

SOME incident was BOUND to bring this discussion to the fore. That it was a man of the professors stature made it a bigger story world wide.

Of course we dared not criticize Bush as president, or the right would scream; 'un-patriotic character assisnation!!!'

But calling President Obama Barry, as a diminutive, and calling him a thug is ok now,

since he isn't a REAL AMERICAN... nor arche conservative, wrong party too, and northern liberal inner city et al.

'My President is above criticism as long at he is white and republican.' Other wise ; fair game!

No dichotomy there.. oh no.

I was in USA just before Bush's re-election, it was so nastily stifling, that I readily accepted the

offer to work in Thailand. The social conformity oppression was so palpable it was like rancid butter,

mixed with vinegar and bittermellon. Lies, fear mongering and bile, much like todays Health care discussion'.

I have lived where 'Universal Health Care' was a reality in practical form. (Not UK)

It can work and should work. Any one scaring you different is full of it, IMO.

Of course the devil is in the details.

I love my country, but Bush and Karl Rove made it a parody of itself for far too long.

Thankfully the centrists got pissed off enough to shove the big money influenced, intolerant, conservative agenda

to a non-burner.

Edited August 8, 2009 by animatic

[sbk]

Well, I think 7 pages is about enough for a topic that is now not even marginally related to Thailand.

//CLOSED//