Abhisit Beats Thaksin In Term Of Ethics, Integrity: Survey

[Insight]

Sorry, you are incorrect. He did break the law. The law is a fact, it wasn't interpreted. He had no right to sign that document. Simple as that. And sixty million people could (but don't) want him back, but if he broke the law then that overides any popularity contest.

And I lived through Thaksin's era, there was nothing democratic about it. I am part of the press which he tried to stifle. It is ironic that one of your pet peeves is the biased press. Do you not remember how biased the press was during Thaksin's era? Not only biased but bullied. Come on, please try not to invent arguments from thin air.

When Thaksin started to take legal actions against the media, were the opening salvo's of the subsequent three-year "Thaksin demonization campaign".

The media began to walk to the drumbeat of their masters, the political elite who eventually were succesful in deposing him. Although the pro-democracy red Shirts claim it took two coups to accomplish this.

The media at that time began to fabricate stories, and reporting them as fact. Shades of the media anti-Thaksin campaign since then.

Thaksin began to fight back.

This was in fact a political struggle, with the media being a large part of it.

Had nothing to do with "freedom of the Press" as the media tried to frame it, and everything to do with political struggle.

The 'democracy part' of Thaksin's reign was the electoral means through which he came to power.

And dont discount the voters in that process. They knew exactly what they were doing. To discredit them as a way to eliminate electoral democracy according to the PAD/old paternalistic politics is not democratic.

Those electoral traditions need to be resurrected if Thailand hopes to 'right the ship'

That's what you call it!?!

St Thaksin. It was the media all along.

Seriously, who are you trying to convince?

[Mario2008]

1 post deleted for bringing the monarchy in to the discussion.

[Ferwert]

1 post deleted for bringing the monarchy in to the discussion.

Thank you Mario.

Now we can proceed with our discussion.

[sabaijai]

Well Sao Jiang Mai, lets let the electorate decide shall we.

I have great respect for the Thai electorate.

If he was convicted without political prejudice, than you are correct.

The pro-democracy red Shirts consider his conviction a "judicial coup".

With that interpretation the man did not break a law, and you are incorrect.

The electorate will decide. I have great confidence and esteem for them in Thailand.

The electorate cannot overrule the judiciary. The higher courts, along with the legislature, form part of the checks and balances of a democracy.

[barrybankruad]

He's also way more fetching. Thaksinmania has peaked.

Don't you beleive it! Try living in Buriram, Issan.

[monoli87]

Wait didn't your screaming leader Jutingporno Goadalot say 10 million signed up???

What only 6, I thought Veera said 5.8, but was that 3 the day before or:

I never heard of 10 million.

What I heard was "about 5 million more" until deadline 31st July. People who missed that deadline only can sign the supporting form, not petition.

The reds are checking the petition and will submit on the 17th August.

I wish a good luck for you khun koo and all of fellow RED movement....

[steveromagnino]

anyone claiming ABAC and ABAC poll to be influenced by the Dems needs their head read.

It is widely known and was documented on multiple occasions that during TRT seemingly neutral polls attracted the ire of TRT, resulting in shut downs, raids etc. Thaksin has made multiple comments during this period when Thailand slumped from one of the most free media in Asia to 100th or worse worldwide that media must take a back seat to democracy blah blah blah.

The head of graduate schools of ABAC and various other faculties were removed and replaced with people Assumption University Assistant Rector Somprot Sarakoset who is staunchly TRT/PPP/[insert name of most recent TRT iteration].

ABAC Poll's results are perhaps not the most strong with regards to statistical accuracy but that's nothing to do with bias and everything to do with speed and nature of doing surveys like this. Of all the academics and politicians I've spoken to (and I'm guessing at least as many as anyone on this webboard) not once have I heard that ABAC poll is Democrat biased. Or military biased. Nor have i ever heard that the media were anti Thaksin; especially given that Channel 3 and 7 are both staunch TRT supporters, and the rest were under TRT control at the time excluding Matichon and Nation. Seriously, Ferwert, I have no idea where you get your information but it is something totally new to most of the world.....simply because it flies in the face of logic and what actually happened.

I doubt even in the villages that they universally believe Thaksin to be this honest upstanding citizen, certainly I have never heard that - the less complimentary support tends to be 'he was crooked but he gave us XYZ' or 'all of them are crooks, but he took less than most'

Almost universally people tell me Chuan was much more honest, but that he was fairly hopeless. I hear great things like 'Thaksin was able to get us 100b for rubber; democrat govt sucks, now it is only 55b.' with logic like this, no wonder the provinces remain broke.

So let it be said, honesty is not necessarily a virtue for politicians.....TRT used to make fun of Chuan as he was still worth not much at all even after being PM twice - no doubt they thought he was a twit to have skimmed so little!

As for convictions, when the crim makes his way back to Thailand to stand trial among a jury of his peers, then we shall see if he can prevail in the 10+ cases against him. I doubt it, as any sane person would; everyone knows he is guilty; at least his most informed supporters admit 'yes guilty, but we want him back anyway.' Even on some level he is probably aware, which is why it cannot go to trial (he won't come back, he will lead the revolution etc etc).

Edited August 10, 2009 by steveromagnino

[TAWP]

More people believe in Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva's ethics and integrity than in former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra's, an opinion survey has found.

Does anyone know how many were asked in this poll? I thought the reds got almost 6 million signatures to support Khun Thaksin within a month. Does it say something?

It says that you believe anything anyone in red tells you...

[TAWP]

This came from a Thai who has deep roots in political activism, and knows her "way around the block" in Thai politics, so to speak.

Her credibility is attested to by many.

That is where this came from.

If she says ABAC stuff is Democrat Party sourced, it is true in the minds of many, including mine.

Does that clarify it for you Plus?

What your post tells us is that you think we are Red fans and will believe anything you say if you try to be cryptic but at the still time refer to non-proven credentials of your supposed source.

Since, for me, you lack any credibility I request a source of your allegation or will dismiss it as fictions of a warped and biased mind.

To compare with steveromagnino that in the past has proven he knows what he talks about and has connections going above most farm-dwellers here...

[animatic]

anyone claiming ABAC and ABAC poll to be influenced by the Dems needs their head read.

It is widely known and was documented on multiple occasions that during TRT seemingly neutral polls attracted the ire of TRT, resulting in shut downs, raids etc. Thaksin has made multiple comments during this period when Thailand slumped from one of the most free media in Asia to 100th or worse worldwide that media must take a back seat to democracy blah blah blah.

The head of graduate schools of ABAC and various other faculties were removed and replaced with people Assumption University Assistant Rector Somprot Sarakoset who is staunchly TRT/PPP/[insert name of most recent TRT iteration].

ABAC Poll's results are perhaps not the most strong with regards to statistical accuracy but that's nothing to do with bias and everything to do with speed and nature of doing surveys like this. Of all the academics and politicians I've spoken to (and I'm guessing at least as many as anyone on this webboard) not once have I heard that ABAC poll is Democrat biased. Or military biased. Nor have i ever heard that the media were anti Thaksin; especially given that Channel 3 and 7 are both staunch TRT supporters, and the rest were under TRT control at the time excluding Matichon and Nation. Seriously, Ferwert, I have no idea where you get your information but it is something totally new to most of the world.....simply because it flies in the face of logic and what actually happened.

I doubt even in the villages that they universally believe Thaksin to be this honest upstanding citizen, certainly I have never heard that - the less complimentary support tends to be 'he was crooked but he gave us XYZ' or 'all of them are crooks, but he took less than most'

Almost universally people tell me Chuan was much more honest, but that he was fairly hopeless. I hear great things like 'Thaksin was able to get us 100b for rubber; democrat govt sucks, now it is only 55b.' with logic like this, no wonder the provinces remain broke.

So let it be said, honesty is not necessarily a virtue for politicians.....TRT used to make fun of Chuan as he was still worth not much at all even after being PM twice - no doubt they thought he was a twit to have skimmed so little!

As for convictions, when the crim makes his way back to Thailand to stand trial among a jury of his peers, then we shall see if he can prevail in the 10+ cases against him. I doubt it, as any sane person would; everyone knows he is guilty; at least his most informed supporters admit 'yes guilty, but we want him back anyway.' Even on some level he is probably aware, which is why it cannot go to trial (he won't come back, he will lead the revolution etc etc).

Steve. Excellent post.

No other words for it.

[animatic]

This came from a Thai who has deep roots in political activism, and knows her "way around the block" in Thai politics, so to speak.

Her credibility is attested to by many.

That is where this came from.

If she says ABAC stuff is Democrat Party sourced, it is true in the minds of many, including mine.

Does that clarify it for you Plus?

What your post tells us is that you think we are Red fans and will believe anything you say if you try to be cryptic but at the still time refer to non-proven credentials of your supposed source.

Since, for me, you lack any credibility I request a source of your allegation or will dismiss it as fictions of a warped and biased mind.

To compare with steveromagnino that in the past has proven he knows what he talks about and has connections going above most farm-dwellers here...

I had thought he was talking about Koo82 here... which made it all so surreal.

But maybe he is talking about his 'in house red' reference source.

Which is even less referential than Koo...

At least we know Koo is a zealot of sincerity,

and in thrall to red leadership after each big rally.

"True in the minds of many", is not necessarily TRUE in reality, where it really matters.

Edited August 10, 2009 by animatic

[wayfarer108]

The electorate will ultimately decide if the pro-democracy red Shirts are correct about what they claim was a second coup, which invalidates all judicial acts associated therewith.

If they are correct about this 2nd. coup, than legalities are void and nullified based on their illegitimacy.

Regarding another coup, For the red Shirts, that would be a third coup.

I dont think anyone has the 'balls' for that.

That is the beauty of elections. They serve as 'deciders'.

They identify the majority, leading to majority rule.

End of debate.

You have not debated the point made at all, Ferwert. Elections do not invalidate court rulings. Rulings stand unless appealed and the courts make a new ruling, which isn't likely.

The same judiciary ruled in Thaksin' favor on at least one occasion while Col Thaksin was in office.

By the way if you are stating that the court's ruling on Thaksin was wrong, you are in contempt of court according to the laws of this land, whether before, during or after the tenure of your beloved leader.

Once again, general elections do not decide who sits on the courts, nor do they decide the validity of existing rulings by the judiciary.

Likewise, elections don't 'validate' or 'invalidate' a coup d'etat. There have been 18 of these in Thai history, nothing new under the sun so to speak.

This is the end of that debate

Koo82, the law that says no tax was to be paid on stock market transactions was created by Thaksin himself and enacted by his executive power four days before the ShinCorp sale. That was the final straw for most Thai people. It was legal, but only because Thaksin made it so. But it would clearly be considered unethical by any democratic government (except one headed by the one who had overstepped executive power).

[Plus]

the law that says no tax was to be paid on stock market transactions was created by Thaksin himself and enacted by his executive power four days before the ShinCorp sale.

No no no, that law was to allow sale of more than 25% of Shin to a foreign buyer, it wasn't about taxes.

Tax was due not on sale of Shin Corp to Temasek, as Koo assumes. Tax was due on profits made by Thaksin kids when they got shares from various companies and listed them on stock exchange. It was charged on the difference between them buying at off the market price (1 baht per share) and the current market value at that time (50 baht).

[emancipationthailand]

I guess all the anti-taksin here totally missed it whenever the court publicly speaks?