Sacked With No Notice

[bangkokcc]

hi all,

i have been working at this quite well-known school for the past three months. things have been going quite well, and i had no idea of the suprise i got today when the personel people asked me for a meeting after school. i went along not knowing what to expect.

then they hit me with a letter outlining my imediate termination (which falls conveniently a month before my probationary period ends). i mentioned that i was shocked as i'd been given no prior warnings, as i'd just assumed that everything was going swimmingly there. they gave me an undated and hastily drafted letter (without address or formal insignia) which outlined all of their greivances towards me. i said this was unfair, as i had been given no warning of any of these incidents.

anyway, i took some time to read through their comments. many were conveniently undocumented things like complaints from parents, which again i had heard nothing about during my period of employment. when i finished reading i asked how much my severance pay would be, and they said it would only cover up until the present day (and not the entire six weeks - as mentioned in the contract).

again, i pointed out that the reasons for my sacking were completely unjustified, and even if they were the school is still obliged to give me 6 weeks notice as stipilated in the contract. i have been given no formal warnings, and i have not behaved in any way unbecoming at school or in my personal life. when i said this, they said that according to thai law.... blah blah, you are on probation and that doesn't apply, don't you know thai law. i said that i did know the law and that they should abide by the contract and pay me the 6 weeks. i was visibly annoyed, but i calmly walked out sticking to my demand for the compensation rightly owed.

at that point the personel boss chased after me, calling me back to talk some more. i turned around and said that i will come back tomorrow and show them the contract. right now i have no desire to return to see them. i'm tempted to just email them and reiterate my greivance, and perhaps contact the labour office.

any thoughts or advice about what to do would be greatly appreciated.

disturbed.

[elkangorito]

You may like to read these links;

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Thai-Labor-L...l&hl=sacked

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Sacked-t2098...l&hl=sacked

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Easy-Fire-Me...l&hl=sacked

[Ijustwannateach]

Did you get to the stage where you got the work permit? If not, you're lucky to get anything. You could hold out for the grades but that might turn the parents and students even further against you, which you don't want.

If you did get the work permit, and you go to a lawyer and have him write a letter citing the law to the school, it will focus their minds wonderfully.

Thanks for the links, El K....

[Loaded]

It sounds like you failed probation. It's the school's right. I believe that unless you worked for at least 3 months, you have no right to severance pay. I don't think the wp has anything to do with whether you receive severance as it's the period of employment that's important.

[bangkokcc]

i do have the work permit and i've been at the school for more than 3 months. the termination notice is effective 'imediately', though no actual date is written on it.

[Scott]

Our contract stipulates that the during probation, you can be terminated at any time. I don't know what the Thai Labor Laws say about probation, but I have Thai friends that always fret about making it past probation, so I assume an employer can get rid of you reasonably easily.

Sorry to hear about your predicament. Most people have some idea that their performance isn't satisfactory. Sometimes it's just a bad fit between the teacher and the school, but generally employees are aware of problems.

Best of luck to you and keep us posted.

[Scott]

Post flaming the OP has been deleted.

[antony77]

probation is probation everywhere the same. Whilst you are under probation you can get sacked without notice or severance pay. You should know that,

[bangkokcc]

update

i got a few calls from the school today asking what i was doing. they wanted me to come in and go with them to immigration to cancel the wp, and to hand back some files i still have of theirs. i said that i was already making plans to leave the country, and they wanted me to come and talk face to face. i said i'd be free next week to return the files and pick up the money owing me i insisted that if they needed anything extra then they need to say so on the phone right there and then. eventually they said that if i came in today they would pay me the 6 weeks worth of wages, provided i bring my passport, some insurance card and the files. so i agreed to come in. we'll see what happens.

[noudb]

I had a similar experience, but after 6 years of employment at a school. The best way to handle this is to get the best deal you can get and get out of there. It sounds like your latest offer is very reasonable. There is a foreign teacher act (from 2004) that states among others that there is no more than one month of severance pay for foreign teachers as their work is always based on a yearly cycle. So my advice, get the check, cash it and leave it. Of course you could insist on having a official termination letter with dates and signatures, but that would just delay the process with the same or worse outcome.

[kurnell]

probation is probation everywhere the same. Whilst you are under probation you can get sacked without notice or severance pay. You should know that,

Rubbish. Check your facts. Even under probation you have to give an emplyee 1 month notice. You either have to work during the notice period, or be given your 1 month termination salary and leave. If I was you. Just call the labour dept and tell them what happened. Do it now. If you fail to turn up for work for 3 days, they can fire you.

I know this is 100% correct cos I had to terminate someone twice during probation and was advised by my farang, specialist lawyer. Give the letter of termination to the labour dept.

[bapak]

I had a similar experience, but after 6 years of employment at a school. The best way to handle this is to get the best deal you can get and get out of there. It sounds like your latest offer is very reasonable. There is a foreign teacher act (from 2004) that states among others that there is no more than one month of severance pay for foreign teachers as their work is always based on a yearly cycle. So my advice, get the check, cash it and leave it. Of course you could insist on having a official termination letter with dates and signatures, but that would just delay the process with the same or worse outcome.

Have not heard of a Foreign Teachers Act. Can you tell us more and where we can see a copy (Thai or English?

Regards, Bapak

[Loaded]

probation is probation everywhere the same. Whilst you are under probation you can get sacked without notice or severance pay. You should know that,

Rubbish. Check your facts. Even under probation you have to give an emplyee 1 month notice. You either have to work during the notice period, or be given your 1 month termination salary and leave. If I was you. Just call the labour dept and tell them what happened. Do it now. If you fail to turn up for work for 3 days, they can fire you.

I know this is 100% correct cos I had to terminate someone twice during probation and was advised by my farang, specialist lawyer. Give the letter of termination to the labour dept.

The point about probation is if he were employed for less than 3 months, it's irrelevant whether he was sacked with a month's notice or not. No severance or employer liability if the employee has worked less than 3 months. That's my understanding and experience of Thai labour law.

[Scott]

Return anything that legally belongs to the school. You don't want any legal action or police at your door. I have never heard of anyone having to go to immigration to cancel the work permit. We simply inform the person that we will be cancelling the WP and that's it. As for the insurance--that may already be paid and not need to be cancelled.

I would also not inform the school of your plans--such as leaving the country. Your not employed there and what you are/aren't going to do is of no concern to them. I would be as professional as possible, but not overly helpful. Remember you don't work there anymore. On the day you were terminated, they should have gotten their files, papers etc.

I hope it all works out for you.

[elkangorito]

"Foreign Teachers Act"? No such thing!!!

There is, on the other hand, a "Labour Protection Act B.E. 2541 (1998)." It can be found here; http://eng.mol.go.th/law_labour.html

One may also be interested in Section 17 of this Act.

I could not find any hint of "probation period" within the Act.

When I "signed up" with my employer, I made it clear that I require a 3 month probationary period, in which either party has the right to dismiss each other at no cost, without notice & without prejudice. My employer agreed. I am still here after 3 years.

[bangkokcc]

update.

i got everything i wanted and asked for, and so i'm happy with the outcome - 6 weeks pay with no more work! i went to the immigration office with them to cancel the visa, and they paid for a week extension. i can't divulge all the details here (sorry to be tease), but they were concerned that we depart on good terms. how nice of them

[Ijustwannateach]

Good job. Too many teachers let themselves be intimidated by their employers here. Employees have rights and employers have responsibilities- don't settle for less than the full entitlement and stand up for yourself, because you can bet that no one else will!

[kurnell]

probation is probation everywhere the same. Whilst you are under probation you can get sacked without notice or severance pay. You should know that,

Rubbish. Check your facts. Even under probation you have to give an emplyee 1 month notice. You either have to work during the notice period, or be given your 1 month termination salary and leave. If I was you. Just call the labour dept and tell them what happened. Do it now. If you fail to turn up for work for 3 days, they can fire you.

I know this is 100% correct cos I had to terminate someone twice during probation and was advised by my farang, specialist lawyer. Give the letter of termination to the labour dept.

The point about probation is if he were employed for less than 3 months, it's irrelevant whether he was sacked with a month's notice or not. No severance or employer liability if the employee has worked less than 3 months. That's my understanding and experience of Thai labour law.

Then your understanding is outdated or incorrect.

[Scott]

Where I work, we have never given people severance pay during probation. They are also not paid for holidays and they do not get sick leave. These benefits become retroactive after the probationary period is up.

Employees are generally discharged at the end of the working day and they are paid for the days they have worked.

Whether or not this is legal, I don't know, but we have never had a problem with it and I would be very surprised if someone hasn't been to the Ministry of Labor about it.

Let's try to refrain from getting to personal and perhaps cite some factual information. Let's also remember that this is Thailand and enforcement may vary from place to place. On a final note, we need to keep in mind that in personnel issues there are a lot of variables that employers and the Ministry may take into account when deciding what to do. We may not always be aware of these.

[Scott]

Inflammatory post removed.

[elkangorito]

Where I work, we have never given people severance pay during probation. They are also not paid for holidays and they do not get sick leave. These benefits become retroactive after the probationary period is up.

Employees are generally discharged at the end of the working day and they are paid for the days they have worked.

Whether or not this is legal, I don't know, but we have never had a problem with it and I would be very surprised if someone hasn't been to the Ministry of Labor about it.

There is no mention of "Probationary Period" in the Labour Protection Act B.E. 2541 (1998).

I would suggest that each individual make their own requirements concerning the "probationary period". For example, length of probationary period, circumstances surrounding how either party can dismiss each other, pay during the period etc. This agreement should be in writing & therefore agreed to by both parties.

Things to consider.

During the probationary period, it is not unusual to receive a higher remuneration than a person who is otherwise "permanently" employed. A typical figure is somewhere between 10% & 15% greater than "permanent" wages/salary. This is supposed to cover sickness etc etc.

In western countries, most people are "casually employed" during their probationary period. I see no reason to expect less in Thailand.

Make sure that the words "without prejudice" are used in your agreement. For example, "Either party can dismiss each other without undue cost or payment, without notice & without prejudice, providing that all monies owed to the employee are paid in accordance with the time worked by the employee. If the employee is dismissed at a time other than the "end of normal working hours", the employee shall be paid up to the "end of normal working hours" for that day."

This is what I stipulated & was written as such. Make sure you get this document in English.

Maybe a legal expert can correct me?

[Loaded]

Then your understanding is outdated or incorrect.

Labour Protection Act, BE 2541 (1998)

Chapter 11 – severance Pay

Section 118

An employee who has worked for at least 120 consecutive days, but for less than 1 year…

source: http://www.thailaws.com/index_thai_laws.htm

IE No severance for anyone who has worked less than 120 days. That's over 3 months Kurnell. Could you post evidence to support your post or admit you are wrong?

Many schools use this section of labour law to impose a probationary period of 3 months because there is no employer liability for severance within this period . Probation is not, I believe, a requirement of the Labour Protection Act but it is often a requirement of schools/employers.

Edited August 15, 2009 by Loaded

[bangkokcc]

update.

i got everything i wanted and asked for, and so i'm happy with the outcome - 6 weeks pay with no more work! i went to the immigration office with them to cancel the visa, and they paid for a week extension. i can't divulge all the details here (sorry to be tease), but they were concerned that we depart on good terms. how nice of them

Good job. Too many teachers let themselves be intimidated by their employers here. Employees have rights and employers have responsibilities- don't settle for less than the full entitlement and stand up for yourself, because you can bet that no one else will!

too right there.

they were willing to sack me on the spot for no reason or warning, screw me over for a substantial amount of money (in terms of thai wages anyway). total fuc_kwits. i had to fight for what i wanted and everytime i spoke to them i let them know that nothing less would be acceptable. you've gotta remember what the major weakness of the thai is, and turn the screws (if you can).

but then willing to fight for stuff in this country is not easy - everything is (unfairly) stacked against us. you may also find that thai employers will have no idea about their country's laws or their own contracts and work place agreements. let's face it, they're not the most strategicly forward thinking people on the planet.