Red Wine - Best Buy?

thomo · September 5, 2010

The price of wines in Thailand make my frequent sojourns overseas all the more enjoyable.

Even to lowly Phnom Penh, there are some fantastic wines at great prices. I always bring back as many as physically possible.

Never any problems at customs?

MisterMan · September 22, 2010

stay away from Mont Clair! it is nasty cheap wine and gives me a headache for at least one day!!!!!!!!Villa has some nice wines on sale for under 400 Baht. Sometimes Wine Connection does too.

There is one at food mart.. Taras. 450 red. It is ok. like Bushmans gulley.

PattayaParent · September 22, 2010

Go to Laos!

Or Cambodia!

French red wine goes for as low as $5 a bottle in Phnom Penh supermarkets.

There is no way to get good stuff (Beer, spirits, or wine) cheaply in Thailand.

or Viet Nam, 80 Baht a bottle for the local wines, 120 Baht for French table wine.

Expatmartin · February 28, 2011

Thailand isn't a wine drinkers heaven, if you're addictet to wine you will have to move to Spain or ruin yourself financially and physically. If you like the taste of paint remover with a fragrance of Mae Nam Chao Praya then try "Mont Clair". Myself I found an alternative, do it Carribean style get stoned on "Tyco" fruit juice with a shot of "Sang Som", sums up to ~ 60 Bath per litre

PattayaParent · February 28, 2011

Just been up to Chaing Mai and the locally produced wine up there is more expensive than the same stuff I can buy in Carrefour in Pattaya!!

David006 · February 28, 2011

I have no idea what you guys are talking about...most wines in Thailand (imported) are at a comparable price to north American and Aussie prices...Can't say anything about the Euro prices ..but a recent Euro relative on a sponging holiday on me here in Thailand thought prices comparable also. A recent trip to Canada and the gov liquor stores confirmed that Aussie and eastern bloc euro swilling wines were at the same price point....

who was it that said life is too short to drink cheap wine....anyway...lol

"who'd a'thought 35 years ago we'd be sitting here drinking Chateau de Chasolet......."

SA chateau cardboard wines are pretty cheap and good swilling ...as are Aussie and Italian..even SOME US Cal. ( Earnest and Gallo Puffta?)wines are ok ...but they are mostly "good wines to be laying down and avoiding"

"Tell that to the kids today and they won't believe ya.."

Jingthing · February 28, 2011

I have no idea what you guys are talking about...most wines in Thailand (imported) are at a comparable price to north American and Aussie prices...

Sorry, but that's just wrong, wrong, wrong! I can speak for USA prices, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, the prices are not comparable! Anyone can check this. Find a typical branded bottle (any country) and simply do a web search and you can easily find typical US prices. If you find the same wine in Thailand for DOUBLE a typical USA price you are doing very well, and it is doubtful you will do better, triple, quadruple not unheard of. Not even to mention no Trader Joes type stores here with wines like "two buck chuck" (that's 60 baht a bottle) that drink better than the boxed S. African plonk any day of the week. The only caveat I can think of is I haven't checked Thai wine prices in the USA vs. Thailand, but who really wants to buy Thai wine in the USA?

http://consumerist.com/2010/08/the-story-behind-trader-joes-two-buck-chuck-wine.html

Edited February 28, 2011 by Jingthing

Thailaw · February 28, 2011

I have no idea what you guys are talking about...most wines in Thailand (imported) are at a comparable price to north American and Aussie prices...Can't say anything about the Euro prices ..but a recent Euro relative on a sponging holiday on me here in Thailand thought prices comparable also. A recent trip to Canada and the gov liquor stores confirmed that Aussie and eastern bloc euro swilling wines were at the same price point....

who was it that said life is too short to drink cheap wine....anyway...lol

"who'd a'thought 35 years ago we'd be sitting here drinking Chateau de Chasolet......."

SA chateau cardboard wines are pretty cheap and good swilling ...as are Aussie and Italian..even SOME US Cal. ( Earnest and Gallo Puffta?)wines are ok ...but they are mostly "good wines to be laying down and avoiding"

"Tell that to the kids today and they won't believe ya.."

Honestly, you have no idea what you are talking about. The total tax applied to imported wine by the Thai government is approximately 390%. From www.usdathailand.org:

The following is a description of the taxes applied:

Import tariff: The current import tariff rate is 54 percent on CIF value or 18 baht/liter, whichever is higher. However, under the Thai –Australia FTA agreement, Thai tariffs on Australian wine have fallen gradually from 54 percent to 24 percent on entry in 2009. The import duty will reach zero percent by 2015.

Excise tax: In principle, the Thai Government places an excise tax on certain products, which are considered "luxury goods" (such as cars, air conditioners, gasoline, soft drinks, perfumes, etc.) and health-affected goods (i.e., liquors and tobacco products), in order to control their consumption. In reality, the Government manipulates this tax as a device to generate revenue (or to reduce competition for domestically produced beer and alcoholic beverages. The excise tax has been accordingly increased from time to time when the Government needs more money. The excise tax rate for wine is 60 percent. However. in addition to a high rate of excise tax, the current calculation methodology creates a much higher tax burden than the rate reveals.

A CIF (cost, insurance and freight) Invoice Value of Imported Wine $100.00

B Tariff (Import Duty): A x 54% = $ 54.00

C Excise Tax Paid: Excise Tax Rate x (CIF value+import duty+excise tax paid+municipal tax) or 1.7647059(A+

= $271.76

D Municipal tax: C x 10% = $ 27.17

E Health tax: C x 2% = $ 5.44

F Value Added Tax: (A+B+C+D+E) x 7% = $ 32.09

G Total Cost: (A+B+C+D+E+F) = $490.46

Effective Duty and Tax Burden = 390.46%

Total Thailand Tax Burden on Wine by Country of Origin

USA, France, Italy, Chile and other countries under WTO agreement = 390.46%

Australia = 294.92%

New Zealand = 275.81%

With tax burdens like this, how can wine prices in Thailand be on par with prices for the same wine in the US, Europe and Australia, especially when the price of wine in Australia is either tax free or taxed at very low rates? I am not sure where you buy wine, but it certainly isn't in Thailand.

lingnoi1977 · March 3, 2011

I've watched this thread develop into an interesting discussion on perceived wine quality, availability of wines in Thailand and the dreaded word, TAX. It's gone a bit off track but I think it has been a healthy debate, albeit not entirely accurate. I am happy for anyone to add/correct or discuss with me. I am even happy for someone to say "you have no idea what you are talking about..." <?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"><v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><v:path o:connecttype="rect" gradientshapeok="t" o:extrusionok="f"></v:path><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shapetype><v:shape style="WIDTH: 15pt; HEIGHT: 15pt; VISIBILITY: visible; mso-wrap-style: square" id=Picture_x0020_1 alt="" type="#_x0000_t75" o:spid="_x0000_i1025"><v:imagedata o:title="" src="file:///C:\Users\Jonathon\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.gif"></v:imagedata></v:shape> A 'reasonable wine at a reasonable price' is probably a good starting point, since the OP raised the question. The concept of reasonable or the concept of quality is in the eye of the beholder. I could bang on all day about what makes a wine of superior quality to another thereby justifying its price, but I can not necessarily guide the readers palates' toward quality differences unless I understand their level of experience and indeed, their palate. Fair to say most wine consumers dont really have a clue why they like/dislike a particular wine. So, for the purpose of this discussion, let's just say that if the readers perception of quality is a 300 baht box of wine and that any foray into 500 baht plus bottles of wine are a waste of money, then read no further. This is not because of snob value. Not at all. It is because Box wine and Table wine are produced, taxed and sold in very different ways. For me, the laws and practices governing box wine make it somewhat a different category. Regarding quality, there are many elements to the wine making process affecting quality - elements that simply can not be introduced into a bladder. If however, you have been able to appreciate wines of pedigree and real layered texture at any price level against those of simple quaffability, read on.

Edited March 3, 2011 by lingnoi1977

lingnoi1977 · March 3, 2011

I've watched this thread develop into an interesting discussion on perceived wine quality, availability of wines in Thailand and the dreaded word, TAX. It's gone a bit off track but I think it has been a healthy debate, albeit not entirely accurate.

I am happy for anyone to add/correct or discuss with me. I am even happy for someone to say "you have no idea what you are talking about..."

lingnoi1977 · March 3, 2011

part 2 of my rant:

CHIANGMAI vs OTHERS - retail sales

The average bottle sale in CNX is somewhere around 400-500 baht. I would like to hear anyones opinion otherwise. The average price in Phuket is said to be around the 900 baht mark. My research tells me it is a little lower. Bangkok is similar to Phuket and both these cities have much much healthier on-trade (restaurants/hotels) average sale prices.

My point is that wine consumers in these regions care less about Taxes. They are more concerned with quality and availability of quality. Taxes dont affect their decision to buy or not to buy wine because they are wine drinkers.

For me, refusal to drink wine because of it's tax regime is silly. I used to think that way, but since then I have discovered a plethora of good wine at prices I know I could not get back in the West. I can not justify not indulging in one of the great pleasures of life because of the notion of tax.

Tax simply does not affect all wines in Thailand.

lingnoi1977 · March 3, 2011

apologies all...i really cocked my post up

here is the attached version of my long winded post

Thaivisa.docx

Thailaw · March 4, 2011

My point is that wine consumers in these regions care less about Taxes. They are more concerned with quality and availability of quality. Taxes dont affect their decision to buy or not to buy wine because they are wine drinkers.

For me, refusal to drink wine because of it's tax regime is silly. I used to think that way, but since then I have discovered a plethora of good wine at prices I know I could not get back in the West. I can not justify not indulging in one of the great pleasures of life because of the notion of tax.

Tax simply does not affect all wines in Thailand.

The point of my earlier post was to refute a rediculous post that prices of wine in Thailand are equal to prices in Australia and the US. The main focus of my post was not tax, it was price. But of course high taxes have a direct effect on price. The taxes (390%!), as a cost of doing business, must be recovered by the seller and hence result in much higher prices for the same wine in Thailand than in Australia and in the US. Wine consumers (everywhere) care about quality at a price. Wine drinkers/lovers in Thailand drink less wine and lower quality wine than they would if they were in Australia or the US because the price here is higher (there are, of course, exceptions to this rule, and you may have so much money that price is not relevant to your wine buying/drinking decisions -- lucky you). But the OP was asking where he could buy wine of reasonable quality at a reasonable price, which is a topic of interest to most of us wine drinkers in Thailand. You, unlike me, seem to know where such a combination (reasonable quality and reasonable price) exists in Thailand ("I have discovered a plethora of good wine at prices I know I could not get back in the West" -- I assume by this that you mean lower prices, and not higher prices than in the west, which we all know exist). So, rather than talk in such vague generalities, which I am frankly doubtful are accurate, please provide specific name of wines, countries of origin, price and the store and location where these good wines at prices cheaper than in the west can be found. And please don't be concerned if the list is so long that it takes more than a page or two, we will wade through it with great interest. And, since I do not drink white wine, I will appreciate your focusing on reds. Thanks in advance from my palate and my pocketbook.

Edited March 4, 2011 by Thailaw

lingnoi1977 · March 4, 2011

My point is that wine consumers in these regions care less about Taxes. They are more concerned with quality and availability of quality. Taxes dont affect their decision to buy or not to buy wine because they are wine drinkers.

For me, refusal to drink wine because of it's tax regime is silly. I used to think that way, but since then I have discovered a plethora of good wine at prices I know I could not get back in the West. I can not justify not indulging in one of the great pleasures of life because of the notion of tax.

Tax simply does not affect all wines in Thailand.

The point of my earlier post was to refute a rediculous post that prices of wine in Thailand are equal to prices in Australia and the US. The main focus of my post was not tax, it was price. But of course high taxes have a direct effect on price. The taxes (390%!), as a cost of doing business, must be recovered by the seller and hence result in much higher prices for the same wine in Thailand than in Australia and in the US. Wine consumers (everywhere) care about quality at a price. Wine drinkers/lovers in Thailand drink less wine and lower quality wine than they would if they were in Australia or the US because the price here is higher (there are, of course, exceptions to this rule, and you may have so much money that price is not relevant to your wine buying/drinking decisions -- lucky you). But the OP was asking where he could buy wine of reasonable quality at a reasonable price, which is a topic of interest to most of us wine drinkers in Thailand. You, unlike me, seem to know where such a combination (reasonable quality and reasonable price) exists in Thailand ("I have discovered a plethora of good wine at prices I know I could not get back in the West" -- I assume by this that you mean lower prices, and not higher prices than in the west, which we all know exist). So, rather than talk in such vague generalities, which I am frankly doubtful are accurate, please provide specific name of wines, countries of origin, price and the store and location where these good wines at prices cheaper than in the west can be found. And please don't be concerned if the list is so long that it takes more than a page or two, we will wade through it with great interest. And, since I do not drink white wine, I will appreciate your focusing on reds. Thanks in advance from my palate and my pocketbook.

Oh dear...

Its a good debate but dont spoil it by your pompous attitude. I know it is diificult for lawyers to be tactful but try harder and people will reciprocate. No need to take a line that can be construed as personal even if you are only exercising your learnt language skills.

I had a more aggressive response lined up but I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you mean well.

It is you who is talking "vague generalities". Wine drinkers in Thailand who are FROM Oz, NZ or USA may indeed drink lesser priced wines whilst residing in Thailand but they would be foolish to think they can not get excellent quality Euro wines at far better or equivalent prices here in Thailand than in the above mentioned countries. The noteable exception can be USA who have far greater buying power than other countries and hence, cheaper prices. There are many examples of Italian wines that you can by cheaper here compared to other countries.

To focus on reds and ignore a reasonably large category called "white wine" would be silly. For the sake of the argument I would include all categories and styles. I am sorry for you that you are missing out on some of the great wine styles the world has to offer. I look at the entire industry from production, exportation, importation, sales and marketing, retail, wholesale distribution and consumer habits.

Thanks for the offer to guide you through my personal experiences and life long research on wine. I will do you a deal. Business and Company law information in exchange for super wine buys...? Until then, do some real research and you will find that I know what I am talking about. Why don't you come back to me with your finds?

I'll give you a starting point. Check out these wines which are potentially in good supply in Thailand:

Chianti Colli Senesi, Castello di Farnetella DOCG, Tuscany ITALY;
E. Guigal Cotes du Rhone, FRANCE.

If you find there is a marked price difference between let's say Thailand and Australia, I will personally buy you a bottle of your choice.

p.s. go for the Colli Senesi - much better for the discerning palate like yours.

Cheers.

David006 · March 4, 2011

Wow ..talk about getting ones knickers in a twist.!!!..just going by the price of a bottle (750 ml)of Aussie wine which has near enough retailed at about 18 Aussie dollars in Australia...is more or less exactly the same price in Canada AND about 600baht here...give or take a buck or two!...geeesh....

A bottle (1 Litre) of South American/Italian wine in Vancouver is 25 bucks give or take incl taxes ..Italian similar wine in Phuket 700-800 baht .

<deleted> pay up or spend your time wine..ing about difference of up to 5 bucks...get a life? drink water?...???

Chateau cardboard is pretty good after the first three tumblers full....lol

David006 · March 4, 2011

I have no idea what you guys are talking about...most wines in Thailand (imported) are at a comparable price to north American and Aussie prices...

Sorry, but that's just wrong, wrong, wrong! I can speak for USA prices, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, the prices are not comparable! Anyone can check this. Find a typical branded bottle (any country) and simply do a web search and you can easily find typical US prices. If you find the same wine in Thailand for DOUBLE a typical USA price you are doing very well, and it is doubtful you will do better, triple, quadruple not unheard of. Not even to mention no Trader Joes type stores here with wines like "two buck chuck" (that's 60 baht a bottle) that drink better than the boxed S. African plonk any day of the week. The only caveat I can think of is I haven't checked Thai wine prices in the USA vs. Thailand, but who really wants to buy Thai wine in the USA?

http://consumerist.com/2010/08/the-story-behind-trader-joes-two-buck-chuck-wine.html

Buy US wine in Thailand????..

...Two Buck "Chuck"....yes remember sitting by the camera at Seal Beach S of San Francisco doing just that..poured it in the sand!!! Yuk California Cheap Wines ....oops sorry....!!..love the Bourbon though...

Ain't it fun to tickle wine snobs...once served my boss a decanted Chilean wine in Canada( he was French Quebecois ...from Montreal..quintessential wine snob)...told him it was French for a laugh...he believed me and applauded it..couldn't tell him the truth...no sense of humour..I needed the work...He always served US the best though...good on 'im

Jingthing · March 4, 2011

Nobody said 60 baht chuck is good wine, but it drinks as well as wines going for 300-400 baht in Thailand (and 900 baht in restaurants). In the US, for 400 baht you can get some rather complex wines. Not possible in Thailand, period. US wines are among the best in the world; why wouldn't you want to drink them in Thailand or anywhere? There are also excellent Chilean wines and given the price points, like anywhere, one of the better value import country wines generally in Thailand.

BTW, I am the furthest thing from a wine snob. However I did get spoiled and monotone one flavor wines even when somewhat drinkable depress me. I'd rather forget wine than spend good money for that kind of plonk.

Edited March 4, 2011 by Jingthing

DP25 · March 4, 2011

I used to think that way, but since then I have discovered a plethora of good wine at prices I know I could not get back in the West.

Please tell us the names of these wines, the locations they can be purchased, the price in Thailand, and the price in the US or a European country of the same bottle.

Thailaw · March 4, 2011

My point is that wine consumers in these regions care less about Taxes. They are more concerned with quality and availability of quality. Taxes dont affect their decision to buy or not to buy wine because they are wine drinkers.

For me, refusal to drink wine because of it's tax regime is silly. I used to think that way, but since then I have discovered a plethora of good wine at prices I know I could not get back in the West. I can not justify not indulging in one of the great pleasures of life because of the notion of tax.

Tax simply does not affect all wines in Thailand.

The point of my earlier post was to refute a rediculous post that prices of wine in Thailand are equal to prices in Australia and the US. The main focus of my post was not tax, it was price. But of course high taxes have a direct effect on price. The taxes (390%!), as a cost of doing business, must be recovered by the seller and hence result in much higher prices for the same wine in Thailand than in Australia and in the US. Wine consumers (everywhere) care about quality at a price. Wine drinkers/lovers in Thailand drink less wine and lower quality wine than they would if they were in Australia or the US because the price here is higher (there are, of course, exceptions to this rule, and you may have so much money that price is not relevant to your wine buying/drinking decisions -- lucky you). But the OP was asking where he could buy wine of reasonable quality at a reasonable price, which is a topic of interest to most of us wine drinkers in Thailand. You, unlike me, seem to know where such a combination (reasonable quality and reasonable price) exists in Thailand ("I have discovered a plethora of good wine at prices I know I could not get back in the West" -- I assume by this that you mean lower prices, and not higher prices than in the west, which we all know exist). So, rather than talk in such vague generalities, which I am frankly doubtful are accurate, please provide specific name of wines, countries of origin, price and the store and location where these good wines at prices cheaper than in the west can be found. And please don't be concerned if the list is so long that it takes more than a page or two, we will wade through it with great interest. And, since I do not drink white wine, I will appreciate your focusing on reds. Thanks in advance from my palate and my pocketbook.

Oh dear...

Its a good debate but dont spoil it by your pompous attitude. I know it is diificult for lawyers to be tactful but try harder and people will reciprocate. No need to take a line that can be construed as personal even if you are only exercising your learnt language skills.

I had a more aggressive response lined up but I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you mean well.

It is you who is talking "vague generalities". Wine drinkers in Thailand who are FROM Oz, NZ or USA may indeed drink lesser priced wines whilst residing in Thailand but they would be foolish to think they can not get excellent quality Euro wines at far better or equivalent prices here in Thailand than in the above mentioned countries. The noteable exception can be USA who have far greater buying power than other countries and hence, cheaper prices. There are many examples of Italian wines that you can by cheaper here compared to other countries.

To focus on reds and ignore a reasonably large category called "white wine" would be silly. For the sake of the argument I would include all categories and styles. I am sorry for you that you are missing out on some of the great wine styles the world has to offer. I look at the entire industry from production, exportation, importation, sales and marketing, retail, wholesale distribution and consumer habits.

Thanks for the offer to guide you through my personal experiences and life long research on wine. I will do you a deal. Business and Company law information in exchange for super wine buys...? Until then, do some real research and you will find that I know what I am talking about. Why don't you come back to me with your finds?

I'll give you a starting point. Check out these wines which are potentially in good supply in Thailand:

Chianti Colli Senesi, Castello di Farnetella DOCG, Tuscany ITALY;

E. Guigal Cotes du Rhone, FRANCE.

If you find there is a marked price difference between let's say Thailand and Australia, I will personally buy you a bottle of your choice.

p.s. go for the Colli Senesi - much better for the discerning palate like yours.

Cheers.

I was not suggesting or asking for a treasure hunt. You can either state clearly the names of wines, their prices and where they can be purchased in Thailand (as others before you have done in this thread) or you can't. You say you "have found a plethora of good wine...." so I assume that you could provide this information off the top of your head, and would not need to rely on "are potentially in good supply in Thailand" -- rather a silly retort I think. And I think, either intentionally or inadvertently, you are stacking the deck in your favor. No joy is had by finding wines from one country that are sold in another country with sufficiently high taxes so that the prices in Thailand for the same wine look "good". I really don't care about the country of origin -- when in Paris, I drink exclusively French wines; when in Sidney, I drink only Austalian wines; when in Mozambique, I drink South African or Portugese wines, and when in Bulgaria, i drink Bulgarian wine (all red, of course). All can be wonderful wines and they are the best value for the price in that particular country/location. In Australia, the General Counsel of one of my good clients told me that he never pays more than Au$6 per bottle of wine (with his income he could afford to pay much more for wine) and he, I am sure, always drank Australian wine. He told me that Australian wine is tax free in Australia. But the tax policy is designed to promote the Australian wine industry, so imported wine, from Italy, for example, may be taxed at high rates, even comparable to taxes on wine in Thailand. But you don't need to drink Italian wine in Australia, you can drink wonderful Australian wines at bargain prices. In the US, taxes on wine are not used to promote US wines and "discourage competition from foreign producers", its an even playing field. I can buy good wine in the US without regard to its country of origin. My every day drinking wine in the US is Robert Mondavi Cabernet, which is a superb wine for $11 per bottle (note that I said "for $11 per bottle -- there are far better wines for 3 times that price). Find that in Thailand for less than B1000. For special occasions, I am now holding several Chateau Haut Brion and Lynch-Bages for which I am sure I paid less than US$300 each in the US. I saw a Haut Brion of the same year in Bangkok a few years back for B89,000 (I laughed and choked simultaneously). Where else in the world could that wine be offered (I doubt it will be sold) at that price? Bottom line, there are no "good values" on wine in Thailand as compared to Australian wines in Australia, French wines in France or wines generally in the US. The reason is largely, but perhaps not exclusively tax and taxing policy. And, of course, like every overly general statement (as the last one surely is), there are exceptions. That is what we are looking for and need -- the holy grail(s) of wine (without posts from Monty Python). Your turn -- with specifics please.

And my last post was critical of your post -- it was not and was not intended to be personal. Your last post said nothing useful, and I said so. "Tact" is my middle name.....

lingnoi1977 · March 7, 2011

My point is that wine consumers in these regions care less about Taxes. They are more concerned with quality and availability of quality. Taxes dont affect their decision to buy or not to buy wine because they are wine drinkers.

For me, refusal to drink wine because of it's tax regime is silly. I used to think that way, but since then I have discovered a plethora of good wine at prices I know I could not get back in the West. I can not justify not indulging in one of the great pleasures of life because of the notion of tax.

Tax simply does not affect all wines in Thailand.

The point of my earlier post was to refute a rediculous post that prices of wine in Thailand are equal to prices in Australia and the US. The main focus of my post was not tax, it was price. But of course high taxes have a direct effect on price. The taxes (390%!), as a cost of doing business, must be recovered by the seller and hence result in much higher prices for the same wine in Thailand than in Australia and in the US. Wine consumers (everywhere) care about quality at a price. Wine drinkers/lovers in Thailand drink less wine and lower quality wine than they would if they were in Australia or the US because the price here is higher (there are, of course, exceptions to this rule, and you may have so much money that price is not relevant to your wine buying/drinking decisions -- lucky you). But the OP was asking where he could buy wine of reasonable quality at a reasonable price, which is a topic of interest to most of us wine drinkers in Thailand. You, unlike me, seem to know where such a combination (reasonable quality and reasonable price) exists in Thailand ("I have discovered a plethora of good wine at prices I know I could not get back in the West" -- I assume by this that you mean lower prices, and not higher prices than in the west, which we all know exist). So, rather than talk in such vague generalities, which I am frankly doubtful are accurate, please provide specific name of wines, countries of origin, price and the store and location where these good wines at prices cheaper than in the west can be found. And please don't be concerned if the list is so long that it takes more than a page or two, we will wade through it with great interest. And, since I do not drink white wine, I will appreciate your focusing on reds. Thanks in advance from my palate and my pocketbook.

Oh dear...

Its a good debate but dont spoil it by your pompous attitude. I know it is diificult for lawyers to be tactful but try harder and people will reciprocate. No need to take a line that can be construed as personal even if you are only exercising your learnt language skills.

I had a more aggressive response lined up but I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you mean well.

It is you who is talking "vague generalities". Wine drinkers in Thailand who are FROM Oz, NZ or USA may indeed drink lesser priced wines whilst residing in Thailand but they would be foolish to think they can not get excellent quality Euro wines at far better or equivalent prices here in Thailand than in the above mentioned countries. The noteable exception can be USA who have far greater buying power than other countries and hence, cheaper prices. There are many examples of Italian wines that you can by cheaper here compared to other countries.

To focus on reds and ignore a reasonably large category called "white wine" would be silly. For the sake of the argument I would include all categories and styles. I am sorry for you that you are missing out on some of the great wine styles the world has to offer. I look at the entire industry from production, exportation, importation, sales and marketing, retail, wholesale distribution and consumer habits.

Thanks for the offer to guide you through my personal experiences and life long research on wine. I will do you a deal. Business and Company law information in exchange for super wine buys...? Until then, do some real research and you will find that I know what I am talking about. Why don't you come back to me with your finds?

I'll give you a starting point. Check out these wines which are potentially in good supply in Thailand:

Chianti Colli Senesi, Castello di Farnetella DOCG, Tuscany ITALY;

E. Guigal Cotes du Rhone, FRANCE.

If you find there is a marked price difference between let's say Thailand and Australia, I will personally buy you a bottle of your choice.

p.s. go for the Colli Senesi - much better for the discerning palate like yours.

Cheers.

I was not suggesting or asking for a treasure hunt. You can either state clearly the names of wines, their prices and where they can be purchased in Thailand (as others before you have done in this thread) or you can't. You say you "have found a plethora of good wine...." so I assume that you could provide this information off the top of your head, and would not need to rely on "are potentially in good supply in Thailand" -- rather a silly retort I think. And I think, either intentionally or inadvertently, you are stacking the deck in your favor. No joy is had by finding wines from one country that are sold in another country with sufficiently high taxes so that the prices in Thailand for the same wine look "good". I really don't care about the country of origin -- when in Paris, I drink exclusively French wines; when in Sidney, I drink only Austalian wines; when in Mozambique, I drink South African or Portugese wines, and when in Bulgaria, i drink Bulgarian wine (all red, of course). All can be wonderful wines and they are the best value for the price in that particular country/location. In Australia, the General Counsel of one of my good clients told me that he never pays more than Au$6 per bottle of wine (with his income he could afford to pay much more for wine) and he, I am sure, always drank Australian wine. He told me that Australian wine is tax free in Australia. But the tax policy is designed to promote the Australian wine industry, so imported wine, from Italy, for example, may be taxed at high rates, even comparable to taxes on wine in Thailand. But you don't need to drink Italian wine in Australia, you can drink wonderful Australian wines at bargain prices. In the US, taxes on wine are not used to promote US wines and "discourage competition from foreign producers", its an even playing field. I can buy good wine in the US without regard to its country of origin. My every day drinking wine in the US is Robert Mondavi Cabernet, which is a superb wine for $11 per bottle (note that I said "for $11 per bottle -- there are far better wines for 3 times that price). Find that in Thailand for less than B1000. For special occasions, I am now holding several Chateau Haut Brion and Lynch-Bages for which I am sure I paid less than US$300 each in the US. I saw a Haut Brion of the same year in Bangkok a few years back for B89,000 (I laughed and choked simultaneously). Where else in the world could that wine be offered (I doubt it will be sold) at that price? Bottom line, there are no "good values" on wine in Thailand as compared to Australian wines in Australia, French wines in France or wines generally in the US. The reason is largely, but perhaps not exclusively tax and taxing policy. And, of course, like every overly general statement (as the last one surely is), there are exceptions. That is what we are looking for and need -- the holy grail(s) of wine (without posts from Monty Python). Your turn -- with specifics please.

And my last post was critical of your post -- it was not and was not intended to be personal. Your last post said nothing useful, and I said so. "Tact" is my middle name.....

1. Incorrect about Australian Wine taxes. Again you show your complete ignorance but interestingly, make it a thrid party claim. Very lawyer like. There is a WET tax in place in Oz which gives a "producer" a rebate upon commercial invoice. There is no such thing as no tax on wine in Australia;

2. Reeling of a couple of big name 1st growth and 5th growth Bordeaux wines or a commercial US red just proves to me that your palate is indeed caught in the same narrow space as your knowledge of the industry.

When your palate has progressed from Cabernet based reds, we can continue the discussion;

3. I have proven that the tax regime on some wines here in Thailand is less than the tax on the same wines in other countries. You can manipulate the argument any way you wish;

4. Being a lawyer, you are probably better off concentrating on servicing your clients rather than wasting time here.

Cheers.

theseahorse · March 10, 2011

Guys! Please stop with the squabbeling!

Myself and I'm sure most of the other TV members don't actually care who of the two of you knows the most about wine, how much you spent on a bottle of Chateau Margeaux or about Australian wine tax! We're here to find out where we can get better wine at a better price.

Lingnoi1977 - if you know of a good wine supplier that sells wine anywhere near what we all used to pay back west then please let us all know.

Wine IS more expensive here, I've aways been told it's because of taxes, whether thats true or not I don't know. What I do know is that a standard drinkable bottle of red or white is about 5 pounds in the UK (250 baht), the exact same bottle here is about 600 baht (12 pounds). Also, there's a wine producer I've worked with many times over the years from Alsace and his wines are popular here as they go very we'll with Thai food, here they cost about 1,500 baht (30 pounds); in the UK, 12 pounds (600 baht). Wine is more expensive here, no question. I can only compare to UK prices but my American, French, Italian and especially my Australian friends also complain about wine prices.

I'm personally get most of my wine from Wine Connection. Villa also have a good range of affordable wines, but I find Wine Connecion have a more interesting range. I was told the other day that Wine Connection now have a website and deliver. I haven't yet tried it, anyone used the delivery service yet?

mauiguy90 · March 11, 2011

If you want to buy not so expensive wine but good go Chile and Argentina.

French wine suxx compared to Chile, Argentina, California, and Australian wine if you can't buy it for more than 1000 th (french wine that they sell 500thb in Thailand is the one that we pay 50thb in France).

Cheers!

I agree totally that Chilean or Argentinean wines are very good and available at reasonable prices. I'd take any Chilean/Argentinean wine over any thai wine even if I didn't recognize the brand name. They taste much better and sell for comparable prices!

This discussion that wine prices here in Thailand are similar to those in North America is ridiculous since these postings would not generate so much interest if that were the case. "Lingnoi" is just trolling and apparently just trying to get a rise out of the thai visa regulars!

Gluestick · March 16, 2011

Wine here is crazy expensive compared to the US. I generally avoid the European wines and go for Chilean. I think it was Santa Maria or so that was about 300 baht a bottle for the reserve. I don't buy Cali wine here cuz it's way too expensive compared to when I was living in Cali. I generally don't like South African or Australian wine. I'll buy a the boxed wine every now and then cuz it's cheaper than buying a bottle for the volume. I second the earlier vote for Wine Connection when it comes to finding a variety of wine for a cheaper price.

grumpyoldman · March 18, 2011

Wine here is crazy expensive compared to the US. I generally avoid the European wines and go for Chilean. I think it was Santa Maria or so that was about 300 baht a bottle for the reserve. I don't buy Cali wine here cuz it's way too expensive compared to when I was living in Cali. I generally don't like South African or Australian wine. I'll buy a the boxed wine every now and then cuz it's cheaper than buying a bottle for the volume. I second the earlier vote for Wine Connection when it comes to finding a variety of wine for a cheaper price.

Agree and / disagree here.

For sure a 10$US Kendall Jackson California bottle in California going for 20$+ here in Thailand is a joke, I also don't go there.

But South African Chenin? Especially a crisp and cold glass with a girlfriend, try it, you might like the results with her, ha, ha. Also there are some good Aussie wines, but many tend to taste the same, not too much complexity but typical OZ style big fruit and easy swilling, good value for money.

Watch out for the box wines, in Thai heat the cardboard and plastic don't provide much protection from heat spoilage.

CobraSnakeNecktie · April 4, 2011

I notice the 5 liter Red and White MontClaire sell for 890 baht at Makro here in Chiang Mai.

It is a decent value but I am burned out on it.

CHFarang · April 10, 2011

One way to get some reasonalbe priced wines is to go for the special offers of wine suppliers, they often want to get rid of some discontinued wines and sell them for up to 50% discount. the advantage of it is that you do not have to drink the same wine all the time, but actually get the chance to try different wines all the time...

Or buy your winescheap near the border, especially Hat Yai is good for this, lots of small shops who forget to declare the wines when they bring them in from Malaysaia...

My personal way to cope with the wine prices here is to to add soda to my white wine; nice wine spritzer, that doubles the quantity and fits perfectly to the climate here.

Cheers.

RaymondJohnEdwards · March 9, 2012

OK, here is my six penneth worth.....

First thing to remember is that Australia and New Zealand have a free trade agreement with Thailand on wine, so on a 750 cl bottle they pay 54% less customs than everyone else, and that means that the excise tax, local tax, and vat is calculated on a lower figure.

My wine club offers a vast range of value wines at 350 baht a bottle, a wider range at 500 baht, and some really good wines at 900 baht. Delivered to your door in mixed cases. The downside is you have to wait for them as it's a once a month deal. Napa Valley, South Africa, Italy, USA (other), Turkey (don't mock it til you tried it), Greece, France are all available and the range is expanding all the time.

They only do 750cl bottles, so no boxes or big bottles, but there is something for every taste.

It seems to be not well known, but knocks the socks of the Monte Claire quality.

draftvader · March 10, 2012

Plenty of good suggestions above and we start to see how people's tastes differ with wine. Therefore it is best just to suggest who has the most educated wine buyers in the business. For my money (and a few other people's here) it has to be Villa Market. Their other produce is not as good as TOPS or Foodland, but their buyer is truly global and their wine range is comparable to a decent bottle shop/off licence in the West. Yes, the prices are higher, but generally they have bought smart to bring you better quality per baht.

I tend to raise my stakes to the B500 mark and head to the Americas. I have travelled throughout the MercoSur region and tend to favour Mendozan Argentinean Malbecs, but the Californian Zinfandels can throw up a treat or 2 for the money. Yep, the Peter Vellas are good.

For the real tip for sub B400 go to Tesco (I know, but wait). Buy their "Bottled for Tesco" wines. My late step-father always stated that House Wines tend to represent good value, they won't be the best on the list, but being that a lot of people will order the House wine the person selecting will be careful about their choice. I would say that, in this instance, he would be right. Just avoid the ones called "Red Wine" There is a decent "Bottled for" from Australia at the moment for just over B400. There is also a "Bottled for" Californian Zinfandel that has sold out in our local Tesco (I know why!!) that is good for the B399 price tag. Curiously enough I was drinking their "Bottled for" Argentinean Shiraz a while back at it was, then, selling for B439 (now B589), this was at B50:1 the same price as they were selling it for in England. Now that WAS a bargain!

Edited March 10, 2012 by draftvader

cardholder · March 10, 2012

OK, here is my six penneth worth.....

First thing to remember is that Australia and New Zealand have a free trade agreement with Thailand on wine, so on a 750 cl bottle they pay 54% less customs than everyone else, and that means that the excise tax, local tax, and vat is calculated on a lower figure.

My wine club offers a vast range of value wines at 350 baht a bottle, a wider range at 500 baht, and some really good wines at 900 baht. Delivered to your door in mixed cases. The downside is you have to wait for them as it's a once a month deal. Napa Valley, South Africa, Italy, USA (other), Turkey (don't mock it til you tried it), Greece, France are all available and the range is expanding all the time.

They only do 750cl bottles, so no boxes or big bottles, but there is something for every taste.

It seems to be not well known, but knocks the socks of the Monte Claire quality.

Nothing wrong with Mont Clair - very quaffable

tom21 · March 21, 2012

just bought a bottle of mont clair red. it tasted like shit so i put ice in it and tasted a lot better

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