Civil Servants Told To Sign Government Petition Or Lose Jobs

[Orac]

It seems that the people looking to squash this story as unfounded aren't bothering to read the posts.

No, not at all. We just want to know what the story is founded on exactly.

We want to know what professional standards does this journalist follow? Is he a member of any accredited journalist organization, or is he self-proclaimed "journalist"? Who among real, professional journalists can vouch for his credibility? Who will take responsibility if he goes off the rails?

There's a contract between the public and the media - we put certain amount of trust in the media, and the media is accountable for what it reports to us. Where does John Le Fevre fit in this? Is he accountable in any way?

Until all that can be settled to OUR satisfaction, we will treat his "news" on their own merit - someone somewhere has probably said something, or it could have been a hoax from the start.

Surely the contract between the public and the media in this case is Thai Visa members (public) and Thai Visa management (media). If Thai Visa is now choosing to portray itself as a news provider then it must take responsibilty for what is being posted in its name as this article is clearly posted as 'news' as opposed to an opinion piece.

I cannot remember a journalist being subject to such scrutiny before and certainly without questions being asked of the agency he is 'working' for.

[Splatter]

1. In Europe in the nineteen forties and nineteen fifties some people, when they were scared of repercussions, used as their defence " I was acting under orders. "

2. I wonder when / if any Thai civil servants will lose their jobs if they have been found to have signed this petition.

As Animatic says....

"It's easy to see kife as BLACK AND WHITE... what's not so easy is to see

the gray of reality in 3D around your existence."

Edited August 15, 2009 by Mario2008
discussion of moderation deleted - mario2008

[LaoPo]

Surprising how bad some members are able to read:

I agree, especially this part:

- post facts, not rumours and try to substantiate the facts that you present

Since you, LaoPo, are objective - and not leaning to either side - surely you would agree?

If you and/or the other Anti-Thaksin brigade's posters would be so kind as to answers my previous questions (which no one did) I am more than willing to answer your question.

But, to repeat my previous question(s):

does any of you ALSO question the content -and interrogate the writer(s)- of articles in news sources other than Thaivisa's which are biased against Thaksin ?

Or do you eat it as the food (read: news) is presented to you ?

LaoPo

[TAWP]

Surprising how bad some members are able to read:

I agree, especially this part:

- post facts, not rumours and try to substantiate the facts that you present

Since you, LaoPo, are objective - and not leaning to either side - surely you would agree?

If you and/or the other Anti-Thaksin brigade's posters would be so kind as to answers my previous questions (which no one did) I am more than willing to answer your question.

But, to repeat my previous question(s):

does any of you ALSO question the content -and interrogate the writer(s)- of articles in news sources other than Thaivisa's which are biased against Thaksin ?

Or do you eat it as the food (read: news) is presented to you ?

LaoPo

If a question seems to be posted in a rhetorical manner or thrown out with labels of address of 'Anti-Thaksin brigade' etc I will probably skim past it in the threads. If you expect me to answer a question you are welcome to address it to me directly.

The answer is: All news-posts are questioned on their own merits. This one contained no sourcing and is from a known biased poster using a newly established 'format' (TV's own news) that doesn't have neither a history or credibility of the daily media (even if you might not like the newspapers here). In any way, a properly sourced piece will not only vindicate the writer but also gain him creds for the future. Unfortunately sofar there has no more sourcing than ducking. So everyone is allowed to make of it what they think.

As with any other news-posts.

[Splatter]

One day....

maybe in the not too distant future...

more of those on Thai Visa will post about alternatives to the current "Red Way" and the current "Yellow Way".

Personally, I am disillusioned with the solutions offered by both.

And no. I am not a Communist.

Edited August 15, 2009 by Splatter

[LaoPo]

If a question seems to be posted in a rhetorical manner or thrown out with labels of address of 'Anti-Thaksin brigade' etc I will probably skim past it in the threads. If you expect me to answer a question you are welcome to address it to me directly.

The answer is: All news-posts are questioned on their own merits. This one contained no sourcing and is from a known biased poster using a newly established 'format' (TV's own news) that doesn't have neither a history or credibility of the daily media (even if you might not like the newspapers here). In any way, a properly sourced piece will not only vindicate the writer but also gain him creds for the future. Unfortunately sofar there has no more sourcing than ducking. So everyone is allowed to make of it what they think.

As with any other news-posts.

I did.

But, you seem not be able or not willing to answer my question(s):

"do you ALSO question the content -and interrogate the writer(s)- of articles in news sources other than Thaivisa's which are biased against Thaksin ?"

Is my question so difficult to understand ?

But...I leave it from here since I'm afraid you won't give me a straight answer.

LaoPo

[Plus]

Surely the contract between the public and the media in this case is Thai Visa members (public) and Thai Visa management (media). If Thai Visa is now choosing to portray itself as a news provider then it must take responsibilty for what is being posted in its name as this article is clearly posted as 'news' as opposed to an opinion piece.

The only contract between us, users, and Thaivisa is the service agreement. We sign for (free) discussion board, not for news services. The unwritten contract between media and the public is backed up by things like laws (media can be sued for misinformation), peer reviews (professional associations might take notice of public dissatisfaction), and the fact that we pay for the services and can withdraw out patronage.

With a backup and accountability like that the traditional media can claim some status, some credibility. Can it be equally extended to John Le Fever and Thaivisa without any provisions or obligations on their part as a news provider? So far we don't even have gentleman's word as far as this new venture is concerned. Has this John character been properly introduced by Thaivisa management?

What should we make of him?

Should we take his articles as news and facts? Or is he just one of the seventy thousands of members posting his opinions and unverified rumors, but with the privilege to masquerade it as truth?

Mario has reminded us several times:

- post facts, not rumours and try to substantiate the facts that you present

Can't we, users, expect the same from John, the news provider?

>>>

John doesn't owe us anything, btw, but he doesn't post in vacuum, there IS a relationship between the writer and the readers. I hope it's important to him.

[DP25]

The author of this story is obviously working with an agenda (same can be said of many posters of course). Go through his twitter postings, and the postings of the people he is responding to. There are discussions about manufacturing news, ie working with the red twitter groups to create coup stories prior to certain events. Also note that none of this news appears on any other sites, and on the red twitter groups the author frequents he himself only links to this ThaiVisa thread and not to any other news sources.

And yes, I would be happy to entertain additional scrutiny of ALL news articles, including the anti Thaksin ones.

[sriracha john]

40 hours after the OP and as yet.... no corroboration.

Its unidentified sources and vaguely-worded points joins the earlier cited pandemic flu in prisons thread which was based on an unnamed, incarcerated felon's email as the news source is a disturbing trend.

*edit. Also, still waiting for Ferwert's Thai language media links as well as any justification for his own gossipy, unsubstantiated reports that he was asked about.

Edited August 15, 2009 by sriracha john

[animatic]

Where there's smoke there's fire is the theory...

cept'n sometimes it's only smoke grenades

strategically placed to obscure war machines moving into position.

Sometimes it's just simple truths, other times the truth is stood on end

to fit square truths in anything but round realities.

We KNOW there are disinformation campaigns happening from

at LEAST 3 camps and maybe 5 major sources,

all with competing agenda's and interlocking and writhing alliances.

No reason to expect this is anything more than another round at pulling wool.

It's pretty clear, in this case, where, what a appears nothing more than

unattributed innuendo is coming from.

[hegenious]

My wife, who's been a civil servant herself until very recently, heard about this rebuff petition. She's from the South. However, as she has quit her job first of August to come join me in Farangland, she won't have to fear losing her job over this. Unless someone gets really sackedfor not signing, we both think it is only a rumour produced by the Taksin propaganda machine. But TIT, you never know....

[Splatter]

1. In Europe in the nineteen forties and nineteen fifties some people, when they were scared of repercussions, used as their defence " I was acting under orders. "

2. I wonder when / if any Thai civil servants will lose their jobs if they have been found to have signed this petition.

As Animatic says....

"It's easy to see kife as BLACK AND WHITE... what's not so easy is to see

the gray of reality in 3D around your existence."

<<<This post has also had edited out reference to my similar post that was removed yesterday.

<<<Golly. Reference to moderation. Reference to Deleted Posts. And reference to published works available for sale in Bookazine.>>>>

[Orac]

If Thai Visa is now choosing to portray itself as a news provider then it must take responsibilty for what is being posted in its name as this article is clearly posted as 'news' as opposed to an opinion piece.

From Forum Rules:

..We do not vouch for or warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any message, and are not responsible for the contents of any message. The messages express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Thaivisa.com or any entity associated with Thaivisa.com.

This guy is entirely on his own and can post any bullshit with absolute impunity.

I see your point however surely there is a grey area since it has been posted by George on not by the journalist himself.

[Plus]

Good point. John doesn't post his articles himself.

George posts them just as he does with any other news. In those case he is not endorising content in any way.

I guess it means we should judge John's articles on their own merit and on his own history, just as with any other news source.

There's no point in asking him - where did you get this? Or what does "reports are filtering out" mean?

That's just how he operates. His friends of red political persuasion send him tweets and e-mails and he regurgitates them into news articles, trying to fool the public into believing that they have any factual basis or reliability.

I'm sure he trusts his sources, as any other poster who starts with "I heard from my friends at the bar...". It's just in John's presentation it comes as "face to face interviews", and tweets come as "reports are filtering out".

[scorecard]

Surely the contract between the public and the media in this case is Thai Visa members (public) and Thai Visa management (media). If Thai Visa is now choosing to portray itself as a news provider then it must take responsibilty for what is being posted in its name as this article is clearly posted as 'news' as opposed to an opinion piece.

The only contract between us, users, and Thaivisa is the service agreement. We sign for (free) discussion board, not for news services. The unwritten contract between media and the public is backed up by things like laws (media can be sued for misinformation), peer reviews (professional associations might take notice of public dissatisfaction), and the fact that we pay for the services and can withdraw out patronage.

With a backup and accountability like that the traditional media can claim some status, some credibility. Can it be equally extended to John Le Fever and Thaivisa without any provisions or obligations on their part as a news provider? So far we don't even have gentleman's word as far as this new venture is concerned. Has this John character been properly introduced by Thaivisa management?

What should we make of him?

Should we take his articles as news and facts? Or is he just one of the seventy thousands of members posting his opinions and unverified rumors, but with the privilege to masquerade it as truth?

Mario has reminded us several times:

- post facts, not rumours and try to substantiate the facts that you present

Can't we, users, expect the same from John, the news provider?

>>>

John doesn't owe us anything, btw, but he doesn't post in vacuum, there IS a relationship between the writer and the readers. I hope it's important to him.

Well perhaps you need to think again about the legal aspects. IN most coun tries in the wolrd, including Thailand the message board owner can be sued if libelous things are written, by anybody.

[Insight]

I've read elsewhere before that John is under commission from ThaiVisa for writing these articles. The blog post stating this has since been deleted however, so not sure 100% whether it still stands.

[scorecard]

Considering all Thai governments without exception have always used the interior ministry to influence elections, why would anyone be suprised at this. Opposition parties also have always used their alternative networks to do the same.

Thai democracy at work.

Hammered, in addition to the facts in Le Fevre'e report, I heard an additonal piece of information, that puts all those individual actions of the "Governors" into context.

Apparently, all Governors were given marching orders to produce 100,000 signatures from their province.

They obviously pushed this directive down the line.

That is why you see individual actions taken by lower levels to meet that goal, using whatever opportunities that fall in their way, or whatever initiatives they feel comfortable with. It obviously varies from province to province and even between local authorities.

Apparently, all Governors were given marching orders to produce 100,000 signatures from their province.

They obviously pushed this directive down the line.

QUOTE from above: ".....That is why you see individual actions taken by lower levels to meet that goal, using whatever opportunities that fall in their way, or whatever initiatives they feel comfortable with. It obviously varies from province to province and even between local authorities. ...."

Another piece of totally manufactured rubbish.

My daughter in law is in a high enough civil service position to know about this matter. In fact after I mentioned the messages here she called some colleagues to ask "what's going on?"

They all said they had heard nothing at all about the suggestion there is coersion to sign.

She also mentioned that Abhisit is not stupid and he would never allow such an activity, because it's against his principles and he would be well aware of the very negative backlash it would bring.

[scorecard]

I have no reason to question the journalist, but I sure do question how so many members of ThaiVisa all ended up married to Civil Servants!

Thailand has a very very large civil service, and I have three in my immediate family. Many many families have civil sevants in their immediate parents or siblings or one step away in their extended families.

[Mario2008]

I've read elsewhere before that John is under commission from ThaiVisa for writing these articles. The blog post stating this has since been deleted however, so not sure 100% whether it still stands.

Correct, John is writing news articles for Thaivisa. That is why we bring the news under the banner Thaivisa News.

[scorecard]

This is why the government resources should have never been used for an anti petition.   Its a completely stupid political move.  They paint themselves into the same corner of abuser they have Thaksin in.  If the petition they claim to be illegal is in fact illegal, then why would a petition of their own be even needed.  

The spoils system is alive and well.  The Army and Police are getting re sorted as we post, and it goes on from top to the bottom.  They are making the type government Thaksin had for the same reason Thaksin did, just the same old Thai re run.    yawn   wake me when its over.

I agree, this is not a good strategic move on the part of the government for many reasons.

Playing tit for tat is childish and will take us nowhere.

What the government needs to focus on (and in fact they are doing this) is the law, and nothing more.

Changing the subject a little, this thread is under the banner of 'Thailand News Clippings'.

It's been my assumption that items which appear under this banner come from a recognized media source, not just an outlet for anybody's inventions and fantasies. So my question is what newspaper or media did this story originate from?

I would appreciate if the moderators would please comment.

[animatic]

I can agree and disagree with the counter petition.

If the red petition were SOLELY for it's stated purpose, it would fall flat.

BUT it's alterior motives of a bargaining chip / faux election of Thaksin,

and stalking horse method of inflaming sentiment when denied success,

would call for it being countered by similar numbers as a way of saying;

See, not that impressive a feat and/or not representative of the population.

As a contrasting proof it has value.

So that is why it's method of collection must be smeared,

because the red leader's PR team KNOWS,

it proves them weaker than they need to appear,

to cause enough chaos that can allow Thaksin to regain power...

They need to manufacture a BIG slap in theirs and other peoples faces,

to bring them out on the streets and thus the army in factions to back them

or appear heavy handed against them.

This is war by other means, but in preparation for

something quite close to war if needed to reach the goal.

Edited August 16, 2009 by animatic

[Orac]

Good point. John doesn't post his articles himself.

George posts them just as he does with any other news. In those case he is not endorising content in any way.

I guess it means we should judge John's articles on their own merit and on his own history, just as with any other news source.

There's no point in asking him - where did you get this? Or what does "reports are filtering out" mean?

That's just how he operates. His friends of red political persuasion send him tweets and e-mails and he regurgitates them into news articles, trying to fool the public into believing that they have any factual basis or reliability.

I'm sure he trusts his sources, as any other poster who starts with "I heard from my friends at the bar...". It's just in John's presentation it comes as "face to face interviews", and tweets come as "reports are filtering out".

This has not been posted the same way as other news - it has been posted under the banner of Thai Visa news and, since you posted, we now have confirmation that John Le Fevre has been commissioned by Thai Visa to provide it.

"I do not understand your statement that there is no point asking for conformation as this is exactly what I did earlier on in the topic and he answered with the following:

quote

The information on people being intimidated and told to meet signature quotas came from talking to civil servants employed in the north and northeast of Thailand. Other events are reported from having spoken to and in some cases obtained written accounts of events from eyewitnesses to those events."

end quote

You seem to have taken the position that, because of his political beliefs/affiliations, he is lying and making this up which seems bizarre since you have also stated more than once in this thread that you are not surprised if these tactics were being used. Obviously, since this news has been commisioned by Thai Visa I assume the powers that be have also made their own inquiries as to the veracity of what has been reported.

[animatic]

~The only truth we need to know is regurgitated tweets!

Righty O!

Tweeting twaddle from &lt;deleted&gt; for twits.

[Plus]

Orac,

Yes, this is indeed what John said on the first page of this thread:

"The information on people being intimidated and told to meet signature quotas came from talking to civil servants employed in the north and northeast of Thailand. Other events are reported from having spoken to and in some cases obtained written accounts of events from eyewitnesses to those events."

Later I asked how many civil servants he really interviewed. In the article itself there's a phrase "most notably" - implying that people were interviewed in other parts of the country as well but it's North and Norht East that were worthy of note.

My point is - did he really interview enough civil servants nationwide to make generalisations like that? For a one man project it seems like a lot footwork done in a very short time, as he contributes new article almost every day. It would be acceptable while commenting on a result of some polling agency survey, but one man effort? I seriously doubt it.

My other question was about "reports are filtering out" - does he really employ professional people in various parts of the country that report back to him on whatever happens? I understand having friends in Chayaphoom that post on his tweeter page, but that doesn't qualify as "reports".

>>>

I don't know what Thaivisa News really is. Is it a licensed body? Member of any professional media organisation? Does it have enough credibility itself to present John as a journalist? Outside Thaivisa news, is John a real journalist?

Can I also call myself a doctor and go practice medicine and administer aspirin and sensual massages and check for information on the Internet?

You seem to have taken the position that, because of his political beliefs/affiliations...

No, not at all, I'm not arguing the content, just presentation methods. Next time we might be confronted with a completely made up story (even this one hasn't been corraborated yet).

Moreover - I welcome an insight into the red angle. It is under reported in English language media and most of the time we have only general idea what they are talking about. Koo sometimes tells us what's going on there but it's still not enough.

[scorecard]

I've read elsewhere before that John is under commission from ThaiVisa for writing these articles. The blog post stating this has since been deleted however, so not sure 100% whether it still stands.

Correct, John is writing news articles for Thaivisa. That is why we bring the news under the banner Thaivisa News.

- Who is 'John'?

- What are his credentials and his past experience in journalism?

- Any other pieces before from John on Thaivisa?

[Lost_in_Los]

The author of this story is obviously working with an agenda (same can be said of many posters of course). Go through his twitter postings, and the postings of the people he is responding to. There are discussions about manufacturing news, ie working with the red twitter groups to create coup stories prior to certain events. Also note that none of this news appears on any other sites, and on the red twitter groups the author frequents he himself only links to this ThaiVisa thread and not to any other news sources.

And yes, I would be happy to entertain additional scrutiny of ALL news articles, including the anti Thaksin ones.

I've had a look at Lefevre's twitter aacount and out of hundreds of tweeps (?) he's sent and received I can find four that have been sent to him from the supposed "red news sources" that he is alleged to be a member of. I also saw that he has exchanged some tweeps with the finance minister korn and follows the tweeps from Abhisit and some other government ministers as well as a hole bunch of media organizations - but lets not let the facts stand in the way of a good lynching.

I also found stories of his dating back to the 90s from Rwanda and a some links to his blog on Wikipedia for stories on the asian economic crisis and the genocide inRwanda as well as some articles onthe asian economic crisis written by him reproduced in text books.

Personally I find the attacks on the writer by people such as Insight, Animatic and Sirracha John to be bordering on slanderous. How many replies do you get when you demand CNN or even websites such as TMZ reveal their sources or explain how they got a story? Do you mob who are so quick to slander someone from behind your annonymous nicknames with no profile information do the same to reporters for other media organizations?

Seem their are plenty of people more interested inthe writer than what is being written about and the way the attacks are allowed to remain on this forum is a sad indictment of the whole forum - one reason I don't post a lot.

It's fairly obvious that some peopel here are so dyed in the wool anti-Thaksinists that no matter what was written by who they would attack the writer first as a way to try and discredit the story. This is classic misinformation tactics at its best. Before slagging off at the writer how about people with the biggest mouths, such as those I mentioned earlier, disclosing what their interests, employers and memberships are and filling out their profiles.

From what I've seen lefevre has tracable background in journalism. Insight, Animatic and Sirracha John are nobody's except on this forum where they are again, annonymous nobodies.

As for Sirracha John bitching about lefevres story on A(H1N1) in Bang Kwang, I've already posted something to that thread today I found while researching Bang Kwang and suggest that those with the loudest mouths should be the ones lining up first to offer their apologies as it seems Lefevre and ThaiVisa broke that story and brought some changes to the prisoner treatment by Thai authorities.

Edited August 16, 2009 by Lost_in_Los

[Insight]

Personally I find the attacks on the writer by people such as Insight, Animatic and Sirricia John to be bordering on slanderous. How many replies do you get when you demand CNN or even websites such as TMZ reveal their sources or explain how they got a story? Do you mob who are so quick to slander someone from behind your annonymous nicknames with no profile information do the same to reporters for other media organizations?

Yawn.

There's a simple reason his article hasn't been picked up by other agencies, and it isn't because it hasn't been found.

The whole article is an exercise in misdirection with nothing substantial to back up his claims. If you can find anything more substantial, or if you care point out my "slanderous" comments, please do.

I'm still waiting for this one to hit Reuters.

[jasreeve17]

Considering all Thai governments without exception have always used the interior ministry to influence elections, why would anyone be suprised at this. Opposition parties also have always used their alternative networks to do the same.

Thai democracy at work.

Quite true Hammered - and MrT used this game non-stop too... but why o why are the usual crowd ranting on and on and on again about the lovely MrA, as if he is somehow different from the others and perrrrrrfect???

The polarized group on here are insane, and the guy that just spends his whole life abusing MrT pictorially, is, as another poster mentioned engulfed in hatred; it's very sad.

MrT = MrA = MrN = Thai politician; they all lie non-stop for personal financial gain. MrA and his party have managed the feat by the barrel of a gun (again) without ever having been voted in during their lengthy history. Hence why the majority of Thais hate him, and hence why he won't call an election...

But, I agree with your point totally, of course MrA (or MrN without MrA's knopwledge ) uses dodgy (legal / illegal?) political means just as they all do - why the denial by the usual suspects? Their fervour seems unlimmited (perhaps only matched by their naivity...)

[animatic]

I was questioning John's Le Fevre's sources, and that was it.

Nothing slanderous towards him as a person that I remember.

But so far there is no corroboration that has been brought to my attention.

Corroboration DOES matter.

Nation and Bkk Post do get raked over the coals for bad reporting here too.

ESPECIALLY for relying on single source internet stories lacking corroboration.

Also i was being humorously ironic about the efficacy of Tweets as a viable news source.

But did that mention John, nope, it was referencing someone elses catch phrase

I WAS castigating the Thaksin tweets as a source for anything for sure.

Different kettles of fish.

But hey lump me in any group you want.

Edited August 16, 2009 by animatic

[sriracha john]

The author of this story is obviously working with an agenda (same can be said of many posters of course). Go through his twitter postings, and the postings of the people he is responding to. There are discussions about manufacturing news, ie working with the red twitter groups to create coup stories prior to certain events. Also note that none of this news appears on any other sites, and on the red twitter groups the author frequents he himself only links to this ThaiVisa thread and not to any other news sources.

And yes, I would be happy to entertain additional scrutiny of ALL news articles, including the anti Thaksin ones.

I've had a look at Lefevre's twitter aacount and out of hundreds of tweeps (?) he's sent and received I can find four that have been sent to him from the supposed "red news sources" that he is alleged to be a member of. I also saw that he has exchanged some tweeps with the finance minister korn and follows the tweeps from Abhisit and some other government ministers as well as a hole bunch of media organizations - but lets not let the facts stand in the way of a good lynching.

I also found stories of his dating back to the 90s from Rwanda and a some links to his blog on Wikipedia for stories on the asian economic crisis and the genocide inRwanda as well as some articles onthe asian economic crisis written by him reproduced in text books.

Personally I find the attacks on the writer by people such as Insight, Animatic and Sirracha John to be bordering on slanderous. How many replies do you get when you demand CNN or even websites such as TMZ reveal their sources or explain how they got a story? Do you mob who are so quick to slander someone from behind your annonymous nicknames with no profile information do the same to reporters for other media organizations?

Seem their are plenty of people more interested inthe writer than what is being written about and the way the attacks are allowed to remain on this forum is a sad indictment of the whole forum - one reason I don't post a lot.

It's fairly obvious that some peopel here are so dyed in the wool anti-Thaksinists that no matter what was written by who they would attack the writer first as a way to try and discredit the story. This is classic misinformation tactics at its best. Before slagging off at the writer how about people with the biggest mouths, such as those I mentioned earlier, disclosing what their interests, employers and memberships are and filling out their profiles.

From what I've seen lefevre has tracable background in journalism. Insight, Animatic and Sirracha John are nobody's except on this forum where they are again, annonymous nobodies.

As for Sirracha John bitching about lefevres story on A(H1N1) in Bang Kwang, I've already posted something to that thread today I found while researching Bang Kwang and suggest that those with the loudest mouths should be the ones lining up first to offer their apologies as it seems Lefevre and ThaiVisa broke that story and brought some changes to the prisoner treatment by Thai authorities.

I've read and posted on the other thread following your addition in which I question aloud if a convicted, incarcerated heroin trafficker is actually a suitable news source to corroborate a news article that's based on the anonymous email writings of another convicted, incarcerated felon who is unnamed.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=2947659

btw.... that's question, not "bitching"... not "loud mouth"... not "slanderous" or any other personal inflammatory text you chose to use.

Edited August 16, 2009 by sriracha john