stumonster Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 A counter petition is equally worthless. Abhisit needs to point out that both petitions are denigrating to the status a petition to the King should hold - they should both be denounced as petty publicity stunts and any civil servants involved in promoting the signing of either abomination should be reprimanded or punished and told to get on with their real jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clausewitz Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Le Fevre's article restores some faith in the integrity of this board. This is an excellent attempt at balanced journalism by "Thai Visa News". I commend them for it.This subject matter will be increasingly corroberated in days to come. There were just too many involved and too much pressure exerted. Even 'Government Officials' pro-government inclinations are sorely tested by such arm twisting. It wont take much of a journalist's efforts in the near future to expose all of this. I just hope that all this 'smoke and noise' doesn't detract from the "legitimate" Citizen's supplication going forward and being considered solely on its' merits without all these frantic Govt'l illegitimate counter-measures clouding the process. These coercive Govt. tactics have been observed on a broad front in this area for over a week now, but I didn't expect the English Language Media to report it.............But they did. Be appreciative of this you Farangs. What he said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farma Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 It would be interesting to find out who the sources were. My information came from a Phu Yai Baan, Orbortor, Teachers and Medical staff in the North Eastern region. If it was happening and judging from other replies it must have been very localized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orac Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Where did Le Fevre obtain this information?"Likewise, some district, town and village administrators, most notably in the north and northeast of the country – traditional Thaksin strongholds – are claiming they have been instructed to obtain 100 percent support for the government petition from residents, or face dismissal and loose all central government budget funding. According to a number of civil servants in the Northern Province of Chiang Mai, each employee has been told to collect 100 signatures for the government’s rebuttal petition by Friday, August 14, or face dismissal. The reports from Chiang Mai match similar ones from the Northeastern Province of Chaiyaphum where the Interior Ministry appointed governor is reported to have summoned district and sub-district leaders to a meeting at City Hall on August 12 and instructed them they must obtain the signatures of all village residents - without exception." Did he interview district, town and village administrators? How many? Where? Did he actually recieved reports from Chiang Mai and Chayaphum? >>>> Regardless - the Interior Ministry that rnus this "reported" campaign is run by Newin's men. I would be surprised if they didn't do anything stupid like that at all. And maybe John Le Fevre, who apparently knows all this information first hand, can provide us with the text of this counter-petition everyone is signing. What does it say and who is it addressed to? I was also wary of this hence my earlier question to Mr Le Fevre which he has clearly answered confirming that information was gained from talking to civil servants and eyewitnesses in the areas concerned. Since he has confirmed the veracity of the information (and also since George has seen fit to show it under the Thai Visa News banner which in itself speaks volumes) I would like to congratulate him on what appears to be a good piece of investagative journalism which has reaffirmed for me the political independence of Thai Visa given the number of recent allegations of Anti-Thaksin bias. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plus Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 So poster "photojourn" who replied to Orac's question is actually John Le Fevre? What about the content of the petition? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meridian007 Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 The information on people being intimidated and told to meet signature quotas came from talking to civil servants employed in the north and northeast of Thailand. Other events are reported from having spoken to and in some cases obtained written accounts of events from eyewitnesses to those events.Thanks for reading Ummm, calling Bulls**t on this. If they are "forcing" people to sign, why not force everyone? If they are forcing everyone, why do we have "eyewitness" accounts that there isn't even any mention of a petition within the civil service offices, let alone the forcing of signatures? This sounds like too much of a UDD set up, and is also probably why this has not been covered in the regular news outlets. Perhaps by seeding this story into online forums, the UDD hopes that the regular news outlets will pick it up just because they love "stories" like this and may not do any fact-checking before printing it. Sorry, but this government wouldn't do something as stupid as this. It sounds too much like a heavy-handed Thaksin move, and even if you don't like Abhisit, you must admit that he has much more political finesse. Even if this story was true, you can bet that it would have been done without his knowledge. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animatic Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 We have seen one report of coercion my civil servants. But WHO is making these statements is not clear at this juncture, nor is their affiliations. We have seen some one say this counter petition is illegal of course it is only illegal if it is presented to HRM, as the reds intend with theirs. And there is NOTHING being said about this being presented to HRM. Putting up tables in town offices with a petition to sign is not coercion. It is a PR exercise at putting out an alternate message. Both sides are in a PR exercise. Regardless of the reddened trumpeting of this glorious cause celebre... yada yada yada This is nothing more than a distasteful pressure tactic on HRM, and effort to stir up passions, what we can expected these passions to be applied to in the next months, is both troubling and problematic for Thailand's immediate future. One of the great organizational principals for despots is to divide the people and control one side. Typically that side is the more gullible, or naive, not the best informed open minded. Despots, even proto-despots do not prefer the glorious light of day for their true direction to be seen. Only the window dressing gets full display. We see this big time these days. Raise the Red Lantern, close the red curtains on the cloistered few controllers, never let the true intent be more than an accusation by the opposition. But wave the flag , be for all and the nation card is played, and appear the only choice because nothing is correct with the opposition. It's easy to see kife as BLACK AND WHITE... what's not so easy is to see the gray of reality in 3D around your existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAWP Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 So poster "photojourn" who replied to Orac's question is actually John Le Fevre? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferwert Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 A counter petition is equally worthless. Abhisit needs to point out that both petitions are denigrating to the status a petition to the King should hold - they should both be denounced as petty publicity stunts and any civil servants involved in promoting the signing of either abomination should be reprimanded or punished and told to get on with their real jobs. Well Stumonster.....your comments meet the Govt's. objectives completely. They will be very pleased with you....".........both petitions are denigrating.........." That is exactly what they want. People talking about 'two' petitions. See how easily people succumb to these machinations. Wow, how effective is that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plus Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 So what about the content of this petition and who it is addressed to? Earlier it was meant to be for those who changed their minds after signing the red petition. Now apparently everyone can sign this counterpetition. Has the text been changed? If you belive the numbers, 10 million people have signed somewhere, and there are just over 40 million registered voters in Thailand. That's one in four. Doesn't sound right in my little circle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sriracha john Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Le Fevre's article restores some faith in the integrity of this board. This is an excellent attempt at balanced journalism by "Thai Visa News". I commend them for it.This subject matter will be increasingly corroberated in days to come. There were just too many involved and too much pressure exerted. Even 'Government Officials' pro-government inclinations are sorely tested by such arm twisting. It wont take much of a journalist's efforts in the near future to expose more details. I just hope that all this 'smoke and noise' doesn't detract from the "legitimate" Citizen's supplication going forward and being considered solely on its' merits without all these frantic Govt'l illegitimate counter-measures clouding the process. These coercive Govt. tactics have been observed on a broad front in this area for over a week now, but I didn't expect the English Language Media to report it.............But they did. Be appreciative of this you Farangs, and thankful for some balance. What does your alleged Thai Language media have to report on the threatening civil servants with their jobs? Please provide some links to corroborating stories. I'm still waiting on any corroboration of another story in which it was also suggested we wait for as well, when it was questioned on whether or not a "pandemic" was actually occurring in Thai prisons and as yet there's been none in the past 11 days. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Pandemic-AH1...26.html&hl= Is this what is going to be expected now. Print the news and then wait a week to see if it's real? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stumonster Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 A counter petition is equally worthless. Abhisit needs to point out that both petitions are denigrating to the status a petition to the King should hold - they should both be denounced as petty publicity stunts and any civil servants involved in promoting the signing of either abomination should be reprimanded or punished and told to get on with their real jobs. Well Stumonster.....your comments meet the Govt's. objectives completely. They will be very pleased with you....".........both petitions are denigrating.........." That is exactly what they want. People talking about 'two' petitions. See how easily people succumb to these machinations. Wow, how effective is that! and your blithe factiousness shows your objectives completely publicity stunts are for marketing droids and your dear leaders petition is nothing but a publicity stunt your implication that the second petition is backed by the heads of this govt is nothing but misdirection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howzat Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Unadulterated twaddle!! I am married to a cival servant and neither she nor the many hundreds who work in her building have been asked to sign a petition at the risk of loosing her job. Propaganda from Thaksin's group I suggest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splatter Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Yes, good points, I am also asking myself where the facts are to back up this article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caf Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Haven't seen anything on this in Reuters, AP, BBC, NNT, MCOT, Bangkok Post, The Nation, PTV, TAN, or heard anything on this from Thai TV news or the four family members that are civil servants. John leFevre did not give any sources, did he What is his journalistic background Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orac Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Haven't seen anything on this in Reuters, AP, BBC, NNT, MCOT, Bangkok Post, The Nation, PTV, TAN, or heard anything on this from Thai TV news or the four family members that are civil servants. John leFevre did not give any sources, did he What is his journalistic background surely you aren't expecting him to name the civil servants and eyewitnesses that he obtained this information from are you??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lite Beer Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Post discussing the Monarchy deleted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insight Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Haven't seen anything on this in Reuters, AP, BBC, NNT, MCOT, Bangkok Post, The Nation, PTV, TAN, or heard anything on this from Thai TV news or the four family members that are civil servants. John leFevre did not give any sources, did he What is his journalistic background surely you aren't expecting him to name the civil servants and eyewitnesses that he obtained this information from are you??? Throughout the country reports are also gradually filtering out of people being paid to sign the rebuttal petition, with one government health officer in Chaiyaphum on August 9 openly paying those who signed the document Bt50 (about $US1.47) each. Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Well, it would appear that a lot of people are willing to kill the messenger as well as the message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meridian007 Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 (edited) Haven't seen anything on this in Reuters, AP, BBC, NNT, MCOT, Bangkok Post, The Nation, PTV, TAN, or heard anything on this from Thai TV news or the four family members that are civil servants. John leFevre did not give any sources, did he What is his journalistic background Well, he is a journalist. He seems to have most of his articles posted to travel sites. You can see that he has trained as a journalist here: http://photojourn.wordpress.com/about-me-c...ohn-chiang-mai/ So I don't doubt his occupation, but his sources and obvious UDD bias can clearly be seen in his blog. He has a right to have an opinion. If it overly effects his reporting and is based on spurious information, it should be regarded as just that, opinion, not journalism. I would file the article at the top under blog posts, not news reports. I would also see it as just another opinion on Thai Visa, but with no higher value than any other unless independent verification can be done. Well, it would appear that a lot of people are willing to kill the messenger as well as the message. No, we are just trying to validate his position as anything other than a regular ThaiVisa poster, and look at his "information" within that light. As I said, he has a right to his view, but it is up to us to decide how highly we can trust his information and his viewpoint (just like any other ThaiVisa poster) Edited August 14, 2009 by Meridian007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catmac Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Sorry, but this government wouldn't do something as stupid as this. It sounds too much like a heavy-handed Thaksin move, and even if you don't like Abhisit, you must admit that he has much more political finesse. Even if this story was true, you can bet that it would have been done without his knowledge. But you forget that Newin's idiots are in charge of the relevant Ministry, and that's just the kind of stupid, confrontational crap that they delight in - remember his band of blue-shirted thugs at Pattaya? I've no doubt that Abhisit had no knowledge of this stunt, but that is the real tragedy of this Government - a rabble of self seeking clowns doing their own thing (and lining their own pockets in the process!) supervised by a PM totally unable to exercise any control over them. Indeed, it is them that have the PM at their mercy, he is merely tolerated as a pretty face to put before the media and the World who will be dumped whenever they choose, or be sacrificed as a scapegoat if the shit ever reaches the fan! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sriracha john Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunsamourai Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 I am also glad that the war being waged is with pen and ink instead of something more dangerous. The pen is mightier than the sword Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meridian007 Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 But you forget that Newin's idiots are in charge of the relevant Ministry, and that's just the kind of stupid, confrontational crap that they delight in - remember his band of blue-shirted thugs at Pattaya?I've no doubt that Abhisit had no knowledge of this stunt, but that is the real tragedy of this Government - a rabble of self seeking clowns doing their own thing (and lining their own pockets in the process!) supervised by a PM totally unable to exercise any control over them. Indeed, it is them that have the PM at their mercy, he is merely tolerated as a pretty face to put before the media and the World who will be dumped whenever they choose, or be sacrificed as a scapegoat if the shit ever reaches the fan! I agree, but if this is actually real (still waiting on that), I hope Abhisit will have a way to deal with it as he has with cleaning up most of the other messes his bedmates have made. Don't underestimate him, Abhisit has shown surprising strength and leadership for someone in his extremely constrained position. It is a coalition government, there is only so much Abhisit can do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plus Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Well, it would appear that a lot of people are willing to kill the messenger as well as the message. The message could be kosher, but the messenger's reliability is in question. Did John Le Fevre really interview lots of civil servants to state things like "most notably in the north and northeast of the country"? Did he interview them by phone? How many did he call? How many said they never heard of manadtory petitions, payments and the like? How are they spread geographically? And what about "Throughout the country reports are also gradually filtering out" - who is reporting to whom? Does John Le Fevre collect reports from agents throughout the country? Really? >>> The "news" article looks like a recap of an unattributed RSS feed. It's fine if it's a recap of the headlines in some Red/Yellow papers - if the source is stated clearly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuff Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Well, it would appear that a lot of people are willing to kill the messenger as well as the message. The message could be kosher, but the messenger's reliability is in question. Did John Le Fevre really interview lots of civil servants to state things like "most notably in the north and northeast of the country"? Did he interview them by phone? How many did he call? How many said they never heard of manadtory petitions, payments and the like? How are they spread geographically? And what about "Throughout the country reports are also gradually filtering out" - who is reporting to whom? Does John Le Fevre collect reports from agents throughout the country? Really? >>> The "news" article looks like a recap of an unattributed RSS feed. It's fine if it's a recap of the headlines in some Red/Yellow papers - if the source is stated clearly. Totally agree on that. Maybe that's why this section is called News-clippings? Take a little from here, take a little from there and make it look like it's actually a bit of investigative journalism. It's just sad that if a "normal" poster would put this on, it would be deleted even before you could say "amen". The mods would ask immediatly for a news source. So is it news or an opinion then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meridian007 Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 (edited) Really Koo? You usually seem to make some of the most sincerely heartfelt and temperate comments on behalf of the UDD, I'm surprised to see such a juvenile response like this here. Abhisit has shown his mettle not only in his restraint during the Songkran battle and his assertion of control over Patcharawat Wongsuwan , but also in his attempts to curb Newin, his attempts to bring justice to both yellow and red shirt offences, his peaceful overtures to Malaysia and the Muslims of the south, his calls for Thai people to educate themselves on what is happening in the world and Thailand, and his attempts to boost the Thai economy within the depressed global economy. Could he do a better job? Yes, of course, if he wasn't part of a coalition. The very definition of which explains the difficulty of making change when the focus of the government is pulled in many directions by the interests of its coalition members. EDIT< Sorry to sidestep the topic, let's get back to it! > Edited August 14, 2009 by Meridian007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animatic Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Abhisit has shown surprising strength and leadership for someone in his extremely constrained position. Laugh as the world is crying Laugh as your love lays dieing Laugh laugh laugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sriracha john Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Hmmm... no evidence of coercion, threats, or job loose here: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=2942524 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insight Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 ok at least there is a reliable source: #Thailand Gov threatens 2 fire public servants who don't sign petition opposing @Thaksinlive rpyal pardon petition. #rednews #redtweet Who is responsible for that twit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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