Ocean 1 & Maha Nakhon Skyscrapers

[pkspeaker]

Ocean 1 in Pattaya is still an empty lot, the super high luxury condo hotel project is supposed to be done in 2012, so is MahaNakhon.. the look neat on paper but considering Thai law requires foreigners who wish to legally own their condo unit, to provide documents to the land office that shows the entire sum of the price of the condo was transferred from foreign bank account AND Thai investors in real estate are better protected since they do not need to pay up, they can simply put a 10,000B deposit on the contract, and pay monthly once the construction of project has begun, only to be paid up the down payment in 2 years (which is a small fraction of total sum) by then they'll have a good idea weather or not the project is shit and opt to quit and simply not borrow money from the bank.

I see many some large projects like that 60 story disaster near taksin bridge, which go under and investors loose money.. neither of the developers that are doing O1 and MN seem to have been involved with such grandious projects, the developer doing O1 has only done the view talay buildings-basic concrete slab based square buildings of about 26 stories, and look at this rating of the israeli developer:

http://www.corporateinformation.com/Compan...cusip=C37670380

comments? Anyone have any opinions or should we assume these projects are legit because we read about them in the Bangkok Post?

[robert10]

by then they'll have a good idea weather or not the project is shit and opt to quit and simply not borrow money from the bank.

That's assuming that they intend to take possession in the first place. Because of the low upfront deposit (5-10%), local speculators hope to flip the condo before transfer is due and make a tidy profit. I know of a Grade A condo which started transferring in Nov 08, and until now, about 50-60% are still not transferred. Buyers only paid 10% deposit and no progress payments. Some units have been repossessed by developer as buyer is not able to pay up. . I wonder how many recently completed or soon to complete projects are like this as well

So much for talk about Thai property being not highly leveraged

[trogers]

An industrial developer doing ultra high-rise residential project? I lean towards believing the outcome will be a virtual real(i)ty...

[hughden]

The developer of Ocean 1 (Siam Best) has nothing to do with the View Talay concrete boxes. They are responsible for the more up-market View Talay Residences and the Majestic housing development near the Varuna club. If you check around you will find stories that purchasers in those developments are allegedly having problems. The overall impression is that they do not have the cash flow to undertake the project; not that there is any sign of it starting.

[Rimmer]

Ocean One Tower Gets regular coverage every six months or so, Last one at:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Ocean-1-Scrapped-t235344.html

Regretfully no one believes it will ever go ahead.

[PattayaParent]

Thai law requires foreigners who wish to legally own their condo unit, to provide documents to the land office that shows the entire sum of the price of the condo was transferred from foreign bank account AND Thai investors in real estate are better protected since they do not need to pay up, they can simply put a 10,000B deposit on the contract, and pay monthly once the construction of project has begun, only to be paid up the down payment in 2 years (which is a small fraction of total sum) by then they'll have a good idea weather or not the project is shit and opt to quit and simply not borrow money from the bank.

You seem to be implying that foreigners need to pay the full amount of the condo cost up front whereas Thais can pay off the cost of the condo monthly which is not correct.

[pkspeaker]

yea whatever, the point is that these projects basically target foreigners, and almost all the money lost/scammed is foreigner money and foreigners almost never get loans, and these developers are targeting rich foreigners who don't work here to transfer money over and pay the whole lot..

The Nation or Bangkok post needs to do an investigative report on both the O1 and MN projects as well as a few others that maybe dodgy, i read both papers almost everyday for the last 10 years and i can't remember last time i read a report about the pitfalls of investing in real estate here.. I think many foreigners are coming here and being scammed.. i'll email postbag and maybe someone there will look into it.

[trogers]

yea whatever, the point is that these projects basically target foreigners, and almost all the money lost/scammed is foreigner money and foreigners almost never get loans, and these developers are targeting rich foreigners who don't work here to transfer money over and pay the whole lot..

The Nation or Bangkok post needs to do an investigative report on both the O1 and MN projects as well as a few others that maybe dodgy, i read both papers almost everyday for the last 10 years and i can't remember last time i read a report about the pitfalls of investing in real estate here.. I think many foreigners are coming here and being scammed.. i'll email postbag and maybe someone there will look into it.

Heard that there will be a world's tallest condo in Nigeria. Interested?

[PattayaParent]

yea whatever, the point is that these projects basically target foreigners, and almost all the money lost/scammed is foreigner money and foreigners almost never get loans, and these developers are targeting rich foreigners who don't work here to transfer money over and pay the whole lot..

The Nation or Bangkok post needs to do an investigative report on both the O1 and MN projects as well as a few others that maybe dodgy, i read both papers almost everyday for the last 10 years and i can't remember last time i read a report about the pitfalls of investing in real estate here.. I think many foreigners are coming here and being scammed.. i'll email postbag and maybe someone there will look into it.

Mileading again.

[redman]

yea whatever, the point is that these projects basically target foreigners, and almost all the money lost/scammed is foreigner money and foreigners almost never get loans, and these developers are targeting rich foreigners who don't work here to transfer money over and pay the whole lot..

The Nation or Bangkok post needs to do an investigative report on both the O1 and MN projects as well as a few others that maybe dodgy, i read both papers almost everyday for the last 10 years and i can't remember last time i read a report about the pitfalls of investing in real estate here.. I think many foreigners are coming here and being scammed.. i'll email postbag and maybe someone there will look into it.

Mileading again.

I suppose you mean misleading, but there is a point here. There is a village in Tokiatien, North of Pattaya where a Thai developer is being sued by a group of expats. He sold exclusively to expats and one reason is, I believe, that absent owners find it hard to take legal action.

The Thai legal system ensures that any legal moves are long and drawn out (for both Thais and Expats) and his hope that the expats will finally give up and go away

[hhgz]

"yea whatever, the point is..."

"Yea whatever"? I'm sorry, I thought you wanted to have an intelligent discussion. It's obvious you have your point of view, and you want to have a verbal tussle.

The point is, you can't afford to buy in the Maha Kakhon Tower (it'll be brand as "Ritz Carlton"), and doesn't concern you in any way. But, you are not alone. Another poster has already claimed that the project is "dodgy", and I'm sure the both of you have a lot to talk about. Since the MK condo won't be ready to move in until 2013, you have a long time to stomp your feet.

[quiksilva]

An industrial developer doing ultra high-rise residential project? I lean towards believing the outcome will be a virtual real(i)ty...

Dont be too quick to pass judgement on their capability based purely on the fact that their track record of development was in different property types.

By way of example I think its fair to say that the local industrial estate developer Hemeraj surpassed many people's expectations with the Park Chidlom.

-----------------------------------------------------

With reference to the OP's question. It will all boil down to market conditions upon launch, which at present do not look very encouraging.

Luxury residential has, surprise, surprise, not been selling very well recently, but projects with unit values <10m each have been recording reasonable sales (well since May).

MNK's price points are quite a bit higher than that benchmark, firmly in the premium end. So it is comparable with the other well known branded condo project, Sukothai Residences, who have not managed to sell 100% at similar pricing.

I personally would love to see this project become a reality. I don't have any vested interests in it (other than profiting from the improved market conditions that are necessary for this to perform well) but I think that the addition of a landmark building such as this would be a great focal point for Bangkok's skyline, and a place of interest that will help to define the city, much as Pertronas Towers did for KL.

[donx]

An industrial developer doing ultra high-rise residential project? I lean towards believing the outcome will be a virtual real(i)ty...

Dont be too quick to pass judgement on their capability based purely on the fact that their track record of development was in different property types.

By way of example I think its fair to say that the local industrial estate developer Hemeraj surpassed many people's expectations with the Park Chidlom.

-----------------------------------------------------

With reference to the OP's question. It will all boil down to market conditions upon launch, which at present do not look very encouraging.

Luxury residential has, surprise, surprise, not been selling very well recently, but projects with unit values <10m each have been recording reasonable sales (well since May).

MNK's price points are quite a bit higher than that benchmark, firmly in the premium end. So it is comparable with the other well known branded condo project, Sukothai Residences, who have not managed to sell 100% at similar pricing.

I personally would love to see this project become a reality. I don't have any vested interests in it (other than profiting from the improved market conditions that are necessary for this to perform well) but I think that the addition of a landmark building such as this would be a great focal point for Bangkok's skyline, and a place of interest that will help to define the city, much as Pertronas Towers did for KL.

How does a project in Pattaya provide a great focal point for Bangkok's skyline?

[quiksilva]

The only comment I made in relation to Ocean 1 was with respect to the fact that they were industrial developers. I don't much more about the project so did not elaborate further.

MahaNakorn (MNK) is at Chongnonsee Skytrain station, opposite Standard Chartered Bank near the Narathiswas intersection.

[quiksilva]

double post

Edited August 18, 2009 by quiksilva

[donx]

The only comment I made in relation to Ocean 1 was with respect to the fact that they were industrial developers. I don't much more about the project so did not elaborate further.

MahaNakorn (MNK) is at Chongnonsee Skytrain station, opposite Standard Chartered Bank near the Narathiswas intersection.

Thank you for the explanation. I knew about Ocean 1, but I didn't know anything about MahaNakorn. I assumed it was also in Pattaya. Googling it, I now remember seeing a thread about that unusually designed building not too long ago.

[12DrinkMore]

The Nation or Bangkok post needs to do an investigative report

Are you kidding?

They have never printed a decent investigative report, particularly where the target would be Thai developers. And to warn us foreigners about spending money in Thailand? Give me a break. :D

And if they did print a negative report, they would be sued for hundreds of millions.

TIT

[pkspeaker]

well when you have someone that insists on changing the subject and going off on tangents..the topic of the post I started was the 2 projects-are they scams and what is being done about it so that innocent people don't keep losing their money on vapor projects that are designed to go 'bankrupt' with some german or israeli fleeing the scene with all the loot..

the point of the discussion was not exactly what the thai law is-ok maybe i exagerated but there are other threads that discuss the ownership aws, we know that the law requires a foreigner to show that he wired the amount of the condo price from overseas to asume ownership at the land office-that in itself is an oppertunity for developers to start asking people for huge moneys

I think I know someone who knows a reporter at The Nation and I'm gonna try to contact that reporter personally on this issue, The Nation is the more 'fininacial' of the newspapers here and there is plenty of leeway to start asking questions about these projects w/o being sued.. we don't want this to be a bernie madoff thing where everyone keeps looking the other way until these bad developments damage Thailands image and international business standing.. and scare legitimate foreign investors from coming here.

I think the questions that need to be asked of these developers--my understanding of a developer is he's kind of like a producer in hollywood, he just sorts of organizes all these subcontractors that will do the job.. the developer is the money people that will pay all these very expensive firms to put this thing together

the question is where are these archetect and construction firms at in these projects-are they being paid? do they really have the manpower to even start this thing anytime soon; is the technology there? or is the developer-like in O1 just dragging their feet while they live an oppulent lifestyle, and then they'll delare that they're bankrupt and flee the scene with the loot?

and the O1 project initially said it would be done by 2009, now they say by 2012 but they havn't even started working on the base, or broken ground..on a building that big it should take at least 1 year just to complete the digging and the very bottom of the base, more likly a year and a half before the building starts going up.. best example is the lot near the skytrain asok station-it has been morethan a year since they started digging there, and they are just now ready to startconstruction on floor 1 of whatever smaller building they're working on..

"yea whatever, the point is..."

"Yea whatever"? I'm sorry, I thought you wanted to have an intelligent discussion. It's obvious you have your point of view, and you want to have a verbal tussle.

The point is, you can't afford to buy in the Maha Kakhon Tower (it'll be brand as "Ritz Carlton"), and doesn't concern you in any way. But, you are not alone. Another poster has already claimed that the project is "dodgy", and I'm sure the both of you have a lot to talk about. Since the MK condo won't be ready to move in until 2013, you have a long time to stomp your feet.

[PattayaParent]

well when you have someone that insists on changing the subject and going off on tangents..

Actually it was in direct response to something you posted that contained misleading information and was therefore part of the topic.

[hhgz]

"best example is the lot near the skytrain asok station-it has been morethan a year since they started digging there, and they are just now ready to startconstruction on floor 1 of whatever smaller building they're working on.."

So, you're referring to that as a "dodgy" project too? If you had any knowledge of a large construction project, you'd know that sinking the piles, and constructing the subterranean levels takes about one-third of the total construction time. That's the way it is, and you should check with your "I think I know someone who knows a reporter at The Nation" to be sure.

[quiksilva]

the topic of the post I started was the 2 projects-are they scams and what is being done about it so that innocent people don't keep losing their money on vapor projects that are designed to go 'bankrupt' with some german or israeli fleeing the scene with all the loot..

I see what you mean and that is not unheard of.

BUT you might want to actually start doing some proper research into the firms in question before you start making baseless accusations on a public forum which could put Thai Visa in legal trouble.

Take Pace Development for example, the people behind Mahanakorn. They have been around for 5 years and whilst that's not all that long, a quick look at their site leaves nothing to suggest that their projects are designed with the intention of failing, after why should they? If they prove as successful as their Ficus Lane project they'd make much more money. www.pacedev.com/site

In fact a TV member who doesn't post here very often these days holds a senior position there. But I will not disclose who.

--------------------

As I said I dont know much about Ocean 1 so will not comment on that. But still you really should do your homework.

-----------------

As other posters have shown, large projects take a long time to get off the ground, banks (especially today) are very wary about releasing construction financing. The term leverage in the aftermath of the recent crisis makes many people's legs turn to jelly, but selling off plan is not a scam, its a fact of life. Developers have always and will always, leverage their investments. They can gain greater retruns on equity.

I hesitate to say that the banks are more responsible these days, but in Thailand that really is the case. They will not give the green light to construction financing (assuming that they managed to get it in the first place which is not easy) until certain levels of sales have been recorded, this is usually 60% and even then many developers will want an extra margin of safety before proceeding.

Once the bank gives the green light and the developer is ready to go there are still many off site processes that have to be completed, before you see guys with hard hats walking around in the dirt. EIA's , site preparation, tendering and sourcing all take time and the larger the project the longer each of those processes take.

In fact there are many more processes than I have listed (detailed design for example can take an age) and for large projects many more contractors and sub contractors are involved than what you see on boards at the site.

To avoid the 'vaporware' type developments do your homework, in exhaustive detail, with an especially close look at their track record. If they have one...

[im sure the determined flamers will find plenty to nitpick over the details of my post, there are always exceptions that prove the rule, and yes I have a distrust of banks too, but take the spirit of my post for what it is]

Edited August 18, 2009 by quiksilva

[donx]

and the O1 project initially said it would be done by 2009, now they say by 2012 but they havn't even started working on the base, or broken ground..on a building that big it should take at least 1 year just to complete the digging and the very bottom of the base, more likly a year and a half before the building starts going up.. best example is the lot near the skytrain asok station-it has been morethan a year since they started digging there, and they are just now ready to startconstruction on floor 1 of whatever smaller building they're working on..

I went to the Ocean 1 website. Have a look yourself. They have two webcams where you can watch the activity going on at the site. The second webcam needed me to install some software, but it updates almost continuously. I don't know much about construction, but there are several cement trucks being loaded and moving around. If they had something to hide I would doubt they would have these webcams in place for all to see.

Having said that, I'm not saying there aren't problems with that project. All I'm saying is that the project doesn't look stagnant to me.

As regards the asoke site. I recently stayed in a hotel looking directly down on that construction site. From above I was amazed at the significant amount of work being done from morning until late each night.

[Rimmer]

I went to the Ocean 1 website. Have a look yourself. They have two webcams where you can watch the activity going on at the site. The second webcam needed me to install some software, but it updates almost continuously. I don't know much about construction, but there are several cement trucks being loaded and moving around. If they had something to hide I would doubt they would have these webcams in place for all to see.

The webcams have been in place for well over a year they show a cement batching plant mixing concrete then loading it into trucks that then drive out the gate to other building sites. It has little to do with the building progress of O1 tower.

[jimmybkk]

Unless I'm mistaken, O1 launched in Q3 '06. I think the then-mayor Niran presided over a ground-breaking ceremony in '07 to celebrate completion of the test-piling and granting of the EIA approval. I recall seing him with a shovel in his hand. And since then....?

Personally I'd love to see this project proceed as I think if done correctly it would be an assett to Pattaya/Jomtien. My concerns are:

a) Do the construction companies/contractors in Thailand have the capabilities to build such a hi-rise hi-tech building?

Can it really be built and sold profitably for the original selling price of around 125K per sq.m. (which many units were sold at)?

c) If there's no issues with a) & above, why has it not broken ground yet?

d) Why the silence regarding progress?

e) Was it a scam from day 1?

[quiksilva]

Again I cant speak for any particular building, but this is usual practice.

Construction costs have fallen considerably since 2008, almost back to 2006 levels (but steel is on the rise again).

However, getting the green light to build all depends on how many units were sold.

If the developer can not hit what the bank's describe as the pre sales target (usually 60%+) then they will not get construction financing, and nothing will proceed.

As an objective observer I'd say silence is understandable if you have poor sales performance.

I understand that in Pattaya selling the Thai 49% quota has always been tough.

[trogers]

I understand that in Pattaya selling the Thai 49% quota has always been tough.

Correction! Thai quota is 51%, and foreign is 49%.

[pkspeaker]

Yea good questions, especially on the topic of the construction company.. when they built petronas in KL the government was in charge since it were building to house the public petroleum company, and even they had to goto NewYork, London, and some other places to get construction & engeneering companies involved that could build a building that big..

but Ktech? what they built that little mall on 2nd road and now they can construct something larger and much more complicated than a twin tower, and such a low price? and who exactly is the construction and engineering firms at MN? and this israeli compnay IBC-what else have they done, they have a website that doesn't work, pace has 1 project on their website-which is also a luxary vapor project that has not been built yet..

Unless I'm mistaken, O1 launched in Q3 '06. I think the then-mayor Niran presided over a ground-breaking ceremony in '07 to celebrate completion of the test-piling and granting of the EIA approval. I recall seing him with a shovel in his hand. And since then....?

Personally I'd love to see this project proceed as I think if done correctly it would be an assett to Pattaya/Jomtien. My concerns are:

a) Do the construction companies/contractors in Thailand have the capabilities to build such a hi-rise hi-tech building?

Can it really be built and sold profitably for the original selling price of around 125K per sq.m. (which many units were sold at)?

c) If there's no issues with a) & above, why has it not broken ground yet?

d) Why the silence regarding progress?

e) Was it a scam from day 1?

[pkspeaker]

Thats exactly the point I was making, first they said 2009, now they say 2012-yet they havn'e even broken ground, and like you said-just the base will take 1/3 of the total construction time which means it can't possibly be done by 2012..it's 1 lie after another while they continue to sell these condoes at unrealistic prices.. and gimmie a break, do you really think that Bruno character has time to sue thaivisa.com with all his other problems when everything we are saying about his project is true..

"best example is the lot near the skytrain asok station-it has been morethan a year since they started digging there, and they are just now ready to startconstruction on floor 1 of whatever smaller building they're working on.."

So, you're referring to that as a "dodgy" project too? If you had any knowledge of a large construction project, you'd know that sinking the piles, and constructing the subterranean levels takes about one-third of the total construction time. That's the way it is, and you should check with your "I think I know someone who knows a reporter at The Nation" to be sure.

[quiksilva]

I understand that in Pattaya selling the Thai 49% quota has always been tough.

Correction! Thai quota is 51%, and foreign is 49%.

Thanks trogers, not much sleep last night!

My turn for a correction

pace has 1 project on their website-which is also a luxary vapor project that has not been built yet..

They have 4 projects on the website, two of which are on the MHK site, namely MahaNakorn and RitzCarlton residences

Saladaeng Residences was launched in Jan 2009, and is slated for a 2011 completion date

and

Ficus Lane which launched in 2003 and completed in 2007. Only a mid rise condo at less than 80 units but its real.

Also OP do you have any real idea of K Tech's track record? Oh they built that little mall? Come on man. DO some research and stop shooting off at the hip, or nobody is going to take you seriously. What about these: - http://www.ktech.co.th/eng/project.php?

If you had any understanding of the business, their track record would have been the last thing you would have raised about that contractor...(that's not to say there are not other things you could mention about them, but I will leave you to sleuth that out)

Edited August 19, 2009 by quiksilva

[hhgz]

pkspeaker,

From your posts it's obvious you don't own a home, you've never owned a home, and you'll never own a home. It's not obvious why you're so upset about things that you neither understand nor concern you.

"I went to the Ocean 1 website....They have two webcams where you can watch the activity going on at the site...it updates almost continuously. "

Yes, there is an Ocean 1 website and, yes, it does have two webcams. What is your point? Does a website and webcams make it seem a viable project to you. Here's something simple you can do: send the Ocean 1 developer an email, and tell us if they respond. I've sent them several messages - although I have no interest in the project - and they haven't responded to any of my requests for information.

"I don't know much about construction..."

Ah.