Are We Too Hard On Thailand?

[phetaroi]

As a retiree who has just moved here to live, and who loves computer technology and the internet, I've been reading with interest all the posts on internet service and cable television in Thailand. Beginning next week I'll be experiencing the same problems. We're trying to subscribe to True cable and internet in our condo in Phrom Pong.

People on here regularly bash Thailand's cable television and internet services. It got me to thinking that maybe...and I am really posing a question here...we are being a little too hard on Thailand.

Cable television in the US began way back in 1948. By 2006 only 58% of US homes had cable services. Original programming (HBO, for example) didn't begin until 1972. Now, here we are in a "newly industrializing nation" and we are expecting services comparable to the West. I know we want that, but are we unreasonable in our expectations?

In terms of the internet, it looks to me like the first consumer-related internet services in the States began back in 1983. Internet Explorer didn't go online until 1995. Readily available commercial email services came into their own in 1988. Again, in this newly industrializing nation in which we are living, do we have unreasonable expectations?

Again, this is just a philosophical question I'm asking.

Thoughts?

[dave_boo]

No, we're not.

Firstly, in regards to the quality of the cable/satellite; they have the technology and it's too easy to contract programming from more advanced providers. So they have no excuse for excessive compression on the data stream nor promise results that don't work (I'm looking at you True PVR).

Also to consider is the fact that putting a quality satellite up there and providing good programming is not that significantly more expensive than putting a sub-par satellite and providing crappy programming.

I do understand the reluctance to criticise cable tv though; it's a lot more work to run those wires and maintain them; however in densely populated areas is there an excuse? I'm not expecting cable out in Nakhon Nowhere, but really in the suburbs of Bangkok what's the reason they can't lay it and provide? Manpower is cheap in Thailand.

It's also a bit disingenious to compare the percentages of households in the States that have access to cable to those in Thailand; especially when you're talking about the foreigners complaining about it. I'd assume that the majority of foreigners are staying in areas that have a high enough of population to justify running cable.

Secondly; the ISPs are way over-subscribed and engage in what could be called blatant false advertising.....

[wilsongbrown]

No, we're not.

Firstly, in regards to the quality of the cable/satellite; they have the technology and it's too easy to contract programming from more advanced providers. So they have no excuse for excessive compression on the data stream nor promise results that don't work (I'm looking at you True PVR).

Also to consider is the fact that putting a quality satellite up there and providing good programming is not that significantly more expensive than putting a sub-par satellite and providing crappy programming.

I do understand the reluctance to criticise cable tv though; it's a lot more work to run those wires and maintain them; however in densely populated areas is there an excuse? I'm not expecting cable out in Nakhon Nowhere, but really in the suburbs of Bangkok what's the reason they can't lay it and provide? Manpower is cheap in Thailand.

It's also a bit disingenious to compare the percentages of households in the States that have access to cable to those in Thailand; especially when you're talking about the foreigners complaining about it. I'd assume that the majority of foreigners are staying in areas that have a high enough of population to justify running cable.

Secondly; the ISPs are way over-subscribed and engage in what could be called blatant false advertising.....

Agree with all the above. I'd given up with the monopoly that is UBC after the last increase in fee. When I changed location I subscribed to a local cable tv outfit with whom I'd no problem save for the odd day of the cable line having been damaged in a storm/accidentally cut by some local builders. But yesterday I called to ask when the tv series channel might be back on, given that it had been shown as having been 'scrambled' for the past week. After a several handings of their telephone from one office worker to another, eventually had a call back from some buck passing idiot giving me the 'yeeeeessssss, but ... not our problem etc' the usual. Won't be using them again.

As for the internet here. Bloody joke. TOT, which although 'connecting' much more consistently than even a few months ago, now keep buggering up connections to various sites - Facebook, (why? ) which I don't care very much about, but now won't allow me to connect to any of the torrents. And given the first paragraph of my post, am relegated to Thai tv, three channels of old and repititive films.

[InterestedObserver]

I hope the OP does not live in a rural area. If he does then he will experience first hand the quality of Thai internet service. Even in the cities you pay an outrageous fee for decent international bandwidth, when it's even available.

[doggie888888]

My experience: when I first went to work in China, one of the accountants in our organisation was still using the abacus and totally computer illiterate...that was over 10 years ago and I am certain Shanghai was worse off than BKK. Fast forward to 2009, internet speeds in Shanghai are so fast and reliable that even most foreigners in the organisation I worked for say the internet speeds in their Sh offices and apartments are faster than USA/Europe/Australia. I am comparing 2 large cities in the third world. What's holding BKK and Thailand back? Corruption? Lack of political will? Lack of vision? Budgetary constraints? Other higher priorities in government?

Other ex- 3rd world countries like Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, HK, all of which were perhaps as badly off as Thailand when it comes to telecommunications and the internet, now all have superior internet services. Even KL is better. I heard it's not bad in Mumbai also.

I am not here to judge, and I deal with the crappy service the best I can...after all I am retired now. Whether the Thais feel their government(s) is letting them and their country down by allowing substandard services is a matter for them to decide. But looking at the education levels in this country and censorship laws, one can't help but feel the powers that be feel threathened by the IT age (and the more enlightened voters that it will bring), rather than embracing it to take the country forward. Consequently, perhaps faster internet speeds is not a priority whereas ensuring there are enough peasant farmers to work the land is?

[cdnvic]

Compared to five or so years ago it's gotten far better. The problem is more one of half-assed effort in the service department than technological issues.

And I wouldn't exactly classify Taiwan and South Korea as third world.

[topben]

My experience: when I first went to work in China, one of the accountants in our organisation was still using the abacus and totally computer illiterate...that was over 10 years ago and I am certain Shanghai was worse off than BKK. Fast forward to 2009, internet speeds in Shanghai are so fast and reliable that even most foreigners in the organisation I worked for say the internet speeds in their Sh offices and apartments are faster than USA/Europe/Australia. I am comparing 2 large cities in the third world. What's holding BKK and Thailand back? Corruption? Lack of political will? Lack of vision? Budgetary constraints? Other higher priorities in government?

Other ex- 3rd world countries like Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, HK, all of which were perhaps as badly off as Thailand when it comes to telecommunications and the internet, now all have superior internet services. Even KL is better. I heard it's not bad in Mumbai also.

I am not here to judge, and I deal with the crappy service the best I can...after all I am retired now. Whether the Thais feel their government(s) is letting them and their country down by allowing substandard services is a matter for them to decide. But looking at the education levels in this country and censorship laws, one can't help but feel the powers that be feel threathened by the IT age (and the more enlightened voters that it will bring), rather than embracing it to take the country forward. Consequently, perhaps faster internet speeds is not a priority whereas ensuring there are enough peasant farmers to work the land is?

bill gates should have some answers for some of the questions here. most new software and hardwares are developed in china by chinese engineers. no mention of any thai invovements whatsoever. besides, bill gates is always welcomed by millions of chinese each time he steps on chinese soil - the top chinese echelons - most of whom are engineers by training - included. if bill gates actually step on thai soils, one cannot imagine the locals would yhink that santa claus has arrived and like any farang here, should be fleeced to the hilt. got the partial picture - or is it the full picture?

[saintofsilence]

I hope the OP does not live in a rural area. If he does then he will experience first hand the quality of Thai internet service. Even in the cities you pay an outrageous fee for decent international bandwidth, when it's even available.

Not unless Phrom Pong is now located in a rural area

"We're trying to subscribe to True cable and internet in our condo in Phrom Pong."

Edited August 15, 2009 by saintofsilence

[topben]

Compared to five or so years ago it's gotten far better. The problem is more one of half-assed effort in the service department than technological issues.

And I wouldn't exactly classify Taiwan and South Korea as third world.

nothing is of priority here unless there are big bucks to be siphoned off by one crony or another in whatever service department there is. so, let's be patient until some cronies suddenly realise how much monies they can make out of this one on technology. remember, most people in the service department are farmers or something who just happen to have the connections somewhere out there.

[topben]

My experience: when I first went to work in China, one of the accountants in our organisation was still using the abacus and totally computer illiterate...that was over 10 years ago and I am certain Shanghai was worse off than BKK. Fast forward to 2009, internet speeds in Shanghai are so fast and reliable that even most foreigners in the organisation I worked for say the internet speeds in their Sh offices and apartments are faster than USA/Europe/Australia. I am comparing 2 large cities in the third world. What's holding BKK and Thailand back? Corruption? Lack of political will? Lack of vision? Budgetary constraints? Other higher priorities in government?

Other ex- 3rd world countries like Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, HK, all of which were perhaps as badly off as Thailand when it comes to telecommunications and the internet, now all have superior internet services. Even KL is better. I heard it's not bad in Mumbai also.

I am not here to judge, and I deal with the crappy service the best I can...after all I am retired now. Whether the Thais feel their government(s) is letting them and their country down by allowing substandard services is a matter for them to decide. But looking at the education levels in this country and censorship laws, one can't help but feel the powers that be feel threathened by the IT age (and the more enlightened voters that it will bring), rather than embracing it to take the country forward. Consequently, perhaps faster internet speeds is not a priority whereas ensuring there are enough peasant farmers to work the land is?

kl, mumbai, honmgkong, taiwan, shanghai? compared with thailand? what's holding the people back back here? the answers are in your questions. search no further. save yourself the hassle.

[Lopburi99]

I don't think we are too hard on Thailand for any of the (many) issues we complain about. I see a complete lack of a commitment to quality here, much less any commitment to excellence. On virtually all fronts, performance standards are far too low. Sub-mediocrity is accepted everywhere. Thailand is far too nonchalant or complacent and the world is passing it by. We retired expats can live with that but it is a shame the future for this country isn't much brighter.

Edit: Just noticed doggie's reply above.... he beat me to my point about low standards.

Edited August 15, 2009 by Lopburi99

[niller74]

90% of failures are a direct result of slack from the technicians that install and maintain the equipment.

Thailand does not have to invent the wheel, just put in on the cart. All the technology is widely available.

As someone else mentioned it is all about money here. Unless there is something in it for the 'right people', no one will take action. Meanwhile the whole country is falling even further behind the rest of the 3rd world countries in computer skills.

I will not even begin to talk about their customer service.

[Crushdepth]

I don't think we are too hard at all:

* The holdups in development of Thailand's communications infrastructure is largely due to political inteference by prior interests (eg. 3G).

* Regulation of ISPs is abysmal, they are free to oversubscribe to their hearts content, so long as they have 'no guarantees' in the fine print.

* Infrastructure is slapped together with gaffer tape and then overloaded to the point of collapse.

* The standard of competence among technical staff is apalling, preventative maintenance is 'fix it after it breaks', security is 'but nobody broke in yet'.

Thailand needs decent infrastructure to support investment and avoid becoming an agricultural backwater. Both sides of politics know but neither has shown any real interest in making things happen, other than the occasional "IT hub wannabe" press release.

[livinthailandos]

crush depth points well taken though. my view is though

1. I know we all complain about the speeds but frankly if your a ISP here the majority of your customers are thai and most of them have little use for international websites. Most of them just connect to domestic websites where the majority of those websites servers are here in thailand

2. Second internet pentration is from my understanding very low in thailand. Only High in places like bangkok, phuket, samui, etc.

3. They way most things are looking I believe most thai's could just wind up using internet from mobile phone I very much doubt actual ADSL will wind up covering the country

4. the holdups in development of Thailand's communications infrastructure is largely due to political inteference by prior interests( I am simply adding on to this if you put in consession fees, along with whos doing business with you, revenues, money for upgrades and then add the ICT which is a joke. Thailand is no IT hub. Even the database section of the bangkok post points that out.

As someone who uses internet quite a lot I pretty much just use a download manager for all my downloads. Web 2.0 as someone pointed out to me is all about flash, shockwave, lots of graphics and more. On top many websites have so many java scripts running on there website I have to use NoScript to enable the page to load faster.

MY main point though would be this though. Everything online is related mostly to packets and what server your connecting to. Every site you connect to you are the client. Places like digg, cnet, facebook, twitter, myspace, etc have high numbers of people connecting so I'm never surprised when it takes longer to load + whatever scripts they have running to. lastly just remember some people here in thailand still have to use dial up or satelitte internet to get connected. I'm grateful I'm not one of them.

[Prasert]

It's not about the technology. The technology is there and that's how it made it's way to Thailand.

For the mobile phone network, Thailand bought the entire system from Europe, and hired a few farang engineers to set it up. In case of problems, they turn off the whole thing and start it up as described in the Thai manual. Step 1 - unpack the box. Step 2 - plug the cables in. Step 3 - turn on the power. Step 4 - check if....etc.

The engineers turn everything off and start at step 3.

Still, there's only a very very small amount of engineers in Thailand that really know how things work. And this applies to technologies as GSM, satellite TV, internet.

Another example is the language barrier. All networking equipment used worldwide uses 1 generic technical language: English. 90% of all engineers working for some Thai ISP do not speak/read/understand English, let alone technical English.

So the problem is not the technology. It's the lack of knowledge of those maintaining it.

[john b good]

Compared to five or so years ago it's gotten far better. The problem is more one of half-assed effort in the service department than technological issues.

And I wouldn't exactly classify Taiwan and South Korea as third world.

But Thailand would be lucky to make 4th world in terms of technology infrastructure and thats a fact.

It seems that TT&T are going down the gurgler, or are in some form of financial damage control at the moment.

As for the question Are We Too Hard On Thailand? the answer IMHO is yes! "sometimes" and I am as guilty as the next person but in the majority of cases criticism of the realm is well warranted

[phetaroi]

As the OP, I must admit you've all pretty much convinced me that the criticisms are warranted. For me, your most salient points were:

1. They aren't inventing the various technologies, they're just putting already developed technologies in place.

2. Training of service personnel, both in the office and the field, is sorely lacking, including in the use of English (in which all the manuals appear to be written...or at least, not in Thai; some must be in Japanese, for example).

3. Too many empty promises of levels of service.

So, what do we moaners and groaners do about it? Just continue to moan and groan?

[dave_boo]

As the OP, I must admit you've all pretty much convinced me that the criticisms are warranted. For me, your most salient points were:

1. They aren't inventing the various technologies, they're just putting already developed technologies in place.

2. Training of service personnel, both in the office and the field, is sorely lacking, including in the use of English (in which all the manuals appear to be written...or at least, not in Thai; some must be in Japanese, for example).

3. Too many empty promises of levels of service.

So, what do we moaners and groaners do about it? Just continue to moan and groan?

We could shut up and do things the Thai way(mai bpen rai).....but that has worked so well in the past for this country....I mean look at how well the **insert anything industry that was brought in from the outside world** works!

[YouYouYou]

Well, are we being to hard on Thailand? Maybe, but we all have our opinions of how 'things work' here.

I've been here too long like many and whether it is my local cable TV that cuts out on average once a week for a few hours (mind you only 350 baht pcm), my previous ISP TT&T that was dire (my TOT is so far good for 3 weeks, but did have a whole day outage ..but they were sorry about it LOL), my electric to my house that has about 20 power cuts a year, my water supply that goes brown/no water about once a month. Oh well, we are connected to the outside world, but the problem is how they put the infrastructure together.

My take on it ....'Education'. Too many people out there with a degree in Thailand do not appear to have a clue about their job. Their degree says 'computer and business management' etc. but in the real world where this knowledge gained at universities/technical colleges just doesn't match up with what they need to know. I think this is where it all starts with people doing jobs who are 'superficially/under educated' for the role that they undertake.

You may say 'newly industrialising nation' but this process has been going on for some 40 years with the shift from a 'subsistence economy' to an 'export oritented industrialised' economy ...so it ain't that 'new' eh.

Yes, Thailand will always be playing catch up to the 'west', but yes it does have the IT ability but lacks a truly educated workforce to back this up. Add a little sugar on top of 'political will', 'responsibility', 'accountability', and 'service quality' all apparantly lacking too ...and there you have it, thus many of the surrounding countries seem to fair better by what others have said.

One friend once told me of a conspiracy theory of his: "In Thailand, no one who is incompetent is fired, because his incompetent boss would have to point out he's incompetent. The incompetent bosses do not want to rock the boat about incompetence as the finger may turn around and point at them!". Not my words, my friends, but after 10 years I am starting to agree with him

TIT and 'mai bpen rai' rule the day as us falaaangs will just have to mull along with this ...as they say often 'Thailand is for Thais' and us falaaang are just guests. Just try to do what you can and what you cant you cant ...It ain't like the 'west' and that's overall probably a good thing. Just my opinion

[krading]

My True Visions has been out for nearly two weeks, only Thai channels and DLTV to keep me amused, and amusing it is. I get plenty of laughs watching teacher training programs.

Anyway a TOT 'Technician finally showed up Saturday, wiggled a few connection, spoke to the missus and went out to his truck.

I asked her what he said and she said that the 'box' must be faulty and he was ringing up about putting in a new one.

Next thing he drives off. "What the ..." says I. "He have to go get new one"

Jeezus Mccreezes, it's only a couple of cables to screw in, you think he would have a spare 'box' in that big truck of his.

I wonder how long I'll wait this time?

[dttk0009]

The ISP's overcharge and oversell their bandwidth like crazy and make a killing, why should they change their ways? Where's the incentive? As long as there's people paying 30-50 bucks a month for dial up speeds nothing is going to change.