Oklahoma Woman Works To Free Slaves In Bangkok’s

[sbk]

I suspect that the many men on this forum are only aware of the world they live in. There are many many different forms of prostitution in this country, not just the ones that cater to white men. And it is a well documented fact that not all of it is voluntary and not all of it is adult women.

[elkangorito]

Along Bangkok, Thailand's red light districts, bright signs promote the various clubs and bars such as Soi Cowboy, Nana and Patpong.

The first time Celeste McGee walked along one of....

Geez! This sheila obviously knows bugger all about Thailand...and now she wants to "religiously" interfere with things here!

People like her need to be kept at arms (times 1000) length.

If she really wants to do some good, she might like to do this without religion. She also may like to live here for a while before she embarks on her quest.

In any case, I hope she succeeds in finding people different employemnt without "converting" anybody in the meantime.

Edited August 16, 2009 by elkangorito

[sokal]

Not withstanding that I think it's a pity so many of these do-gooders we have in Thailand have to link up their charity & efforts to help with their Christian committments (meaning: I think it would be so much better if they could get on it with it unconditionally), I don't think some of the drivelling critism of her efforts written here are justified.

As far as the girls themselves are concerned - the truth of the matter, quite beside what the girls themselves think at the time, is that the majority of them will one day in the 30's and 40's, when their youthful looks and charm have past them by, find themselves back up North looking back with regret for having passed by their early years on their backs, pleasing foreigners – who now couldn't give a shit for them or their circumstances.

Oh yes, they are themselves no less to blame, but they are also victims of circumstance – circumstance that most foreigners from the West have had the fortune not to be subjected to.

Yes, I know many of them set out to earn their fame and fortune, find an ex-pat partner ect ect ect …… and indeed, some do, but for the overwhelming majority, that will not be their lot later in life.

Thank God for the likes of Mrs McGee when we have had our fill and moved on.

And as for comments that the girls like what they do – yes, of course there are some that think it's a hoot and have a laugh, but for the majority you are bluffing yourself if you think that smile is genuine – most get little pleasure out of it, It strips them of self dignity and self worth, they no more enjoy servicing "long noses" than they enjoy the poverty and lack of opportunity that sent them South in the first place.

For every one that makes success of been on the game, there are a dozen more who find it thoroughly unpleasent and degrading.

Don't kid yourself – its easy to pretend a turd is a chocolate pastry if one has too.

A very high number of these girls turn down offers to get married and live normal lives outside of Thailand. And its not just offers from old men. I have heard a number of cases of men 20 to 30 years old that offer to marry a Thai girls.

There is also a high number of Thai and farang couples in the west. If there was no way of the farangs to meet the Thai girls then all the girls would be stuck working in rice fields till they died. Think of the good fortune that the hundreds of thousands of Thai girls that have families around the world have gained from the Bargirl scene.

[Maizefarmer]

Not withstanding that I think it's a pity so many of these do-gooders we have in Thailand have to link up their charity & efforts to help with their Christian committments (meaning: I think it would be so much better if they could get on it with it unconditionally), I don't think some of the drivelling critism of her efforts written here are justified.

As far as the girls themselves are concerned - the truth of the matter, quite beside what the girls themselves think at the time, is that the majority of them will one day in the 30's and 40's, when their youthful looks and charm have past them by, find themselves back up North looking back with regret for having passed by their early years on their backs, pleasing foreigners – who now couldn't give a shit for them or their circumstances.

Oh yes, they are themselves no less to blame, but they are also victims of circumstance – circumstance that most foreigners from the West have had the fortune not to be subjected to.

Yes, I know many of them set out to earn their fame and fortune, find an ex-pat partner ect ect ect …… and indeed, some do, but for the overwhelming majority, that will not be their lot later in life.

Thank God for the likes of Mrs McGee when we have had our fill and moved on.

And as for comments that the girls like what they do – yes, of course there are some that think it's a hoot and have a laugh, but for the majority you are bluffing yourself if you think that smile is genuine – most get little pleasure out of it, It strips them of self dignity and self worth, they no more enjoy servicing "long noses" than they enjoy the poverty and lack of opportunity that sent them South in the first place.

For every one that makes success of been on the game, there are a dozen more who find it thoroughly unpleasent and degrading.

Don't kid yourself – its easy to pretend a turd is a chocolate pastry if one has too.

A very high number of these girls turn down offers to get married and live normal lives outside of Thailand. And its not just offers from old men. I have heard a number of cases of men 20 to 30 years old that offer to marry a Thai girls.

There is also a high number of Thai and farang couples in the west. If there was no way of the farangs to meet the Thai girls then all the girls would be stuck working in rice fields till they died. Think of the good fortune that the hundreds of thousands of Thai girls that have families around the world have gained from the Bargirl scene.

You are quite right, I don't know if its hundreds of thousands, tens of thousands certainly - but whatever the figure is, that is to miss the point: they are representative of a lucky group for lack of a better way of putting it - and its a minority group at that.

Ther are 2 additional points I think your argument misses: firstly, as SBK notes above, there are other types of prositution in Thailand. the ex-pat scene represents what could be described as the more plesent, or more lucrative and monitored side of the business, but there is also that market that caters for poor Thai's - it operates out of the shanty areas of Thailand, the slums and the rural areas - and that market is a sad sad market indeed, where incidents of STD's and drug abuse are far higher than it is in the ex-pat scene.

The second point is this - the prostitution scene is a growing market - not only in Thailand, but throughout South East Asia - it is not now or in 5 or 10 years time, but in a generations' time, when all those on the game now become OAP's (like all of us will one day) - it's then that I believe the consequences of whats happening now will start to be felt back home, when the percentage of single girls whose charm and youth has long left them, will be felt - and felt real bad because many of South east Asia's countries (including Thailand) do not have social sexcurity systems that will be able to provide the support and help this growing community of elderly, retired and poor ex-sex workers will need.

Are you corrrect to note that there are girls who have hit it lucky - and I made that observation earlier myself, but I belive it is representative of a small portion overall of those on the game. For the majority, the long term outlook is sadly very bleak indeed. As for those who do get married, and I am not going to get into another "stats" argument with someone (one's enough for the time been!!), it should also be kept in mind that the divorce rate in this demographic group is the highest in Thailand - by far the highest. The majority of the marriges end in faliure within 3 - 5 years - the figure is not far off 3/4's of all marriges to bar girls. Interestingly, before I get jumped on for been a pessimist, there is one very suprizing and unexpected stat amongst marriges between bar girls and ex-pats, and its this: the longer they stay married, the more likely they are to stay married, and once it passes something like 10years (I have quoted the exact figures for respective timeframes a year or 2 back on a simialr thread), it is interesting to note that these cross-culturale/transnational marriges between bar grils and ex-pats actually show have a higher long term success rate than do marriges between Thai's on a percentage basis. Now hows that for a comlete trun around......... but (and of course there has to be a but at the end), it's a very small figure and to use it to present a picture of the "state of affairs" does not give an accurate picture overall.

Its sad business - and for every one successfull outrcome there are a dozen plus sad stories in the long run.

The question could be: does the likelyhood of ultimate failure justify stopping all from having their chance to be lucky?

Edited August 16, 2009 by Maizefarmer

[britmaveric]

majority MINORITY you are bluffing yourself if you think that smile is genuine – most get little pleasure out of it, It strips gives them self dignity and worth and (power over their own body), they no more enjoy servicing “long noses” because they enjoy the poverty and lack of making good money and the opportunity it provides their family up north. that sent them South in the first place.

For every one that makes success of hates being on the game, there are a dozens more who find it thoroughly unpleasent and degrading. enjoyable and worth while.

Made a few edits for you mate on the reality of the situation.....

Edited August 16, 2009 by britmaveric

[Maizefarmer]

majority MINORITY you are bluffing yourself if you think that smile is genuine – most get little pleasure out of it, It strips gives them self dignity and worth and (power over their own body), they no more enjoy servicing “long noses” because they enjoy the poverty and lack of making good money and the opportunity it provides their family up north. that sent them South in the first place.

For every one that makes success of hates being on the game, there are a dozens more who find it thoroughly unpleasent and degrading. enjoyable and worth while.

Made a few edits for you mate on the reality of the situation.....

I looked at the wording after I had wrote it up and saw the oppurtunity .... was wondering how long it would be before someone done that.

Well done.

Edited August 16, 2009 by Maizefarmer

[britmaveric]

Hahah had to mate, just couldn't resist.

[green1976]

Nice reading thread.

I sincerely think that we shouldn't downplayed what is happening when this type of missionaries want to spread their way of living ,thinking.

They totally believe the right crusade to convert the poors Buddhist who don't have any correct conception of what is life and sex is in the first lane.

I have during my stays in Thailand,met with what we can say both type of ladies.

The prostitutes from Nana,Pattaya versus the hi so or wealthy BKK girls having traveled around,being in the best uni,speaking various languages.

Each time i wanted to know their reactions(from the wealthy ones) when i raised the subject of prostitutes.

Most of their answers can be divided like this.

_"I don't care..it's up to them..none of my buisness"

_"It's bad,it give Thailand a bad name,it's ashaming,this is the worst work they can do to have a living"

_"Have fun with them but stay covert,don't trust them to much"

_"Why so many farang men like Isaan ladies,prostitutes,they are ugly"

I've asked these questions on about 15 occasions and none of these girls,zero of them told me:"oh poor girls ,they are forced to do this,they really need to be helped,they are doing a sin,they should be saved,they are exploited coz they are women..."

Do we have Thailand missionaries who came to Western countries and try to impose their views on sexuality trying to save western prostitutes?

No..

Would i have been a Thai having some power,i would have banned all NGO who wants to spread their religious views on Thailand.

[sokal]

Not withstanding that I think it's a pity so many of these do-gooders we have in Thailand have to link up their charity & efforts to help with their Christian committments (meaning: I think it would be so much better if they could get on it with it unconditionally), I don't think some of the drivelling critism of her efforts written here are justified.

As far as the girls themselves are concerned - the truth of the matter, quite beside what the girls themselves think at the time, is that the majority of them will one day in the 30's and 40's, when their youthful looks and charm have past them by, find themselves back up North looking back with regret for having passed by their early years on their backs, pleasing foreigners – who now couldn't give a shit for them or their circumstances.

Oh yes, they are themselves no less to blame, but they are also victims of circumstance – circumstance that most foreigners from the West have had the fortune not to be subjected to.

Yes, I know many of them set out to earn their fame and fortune, find an ex-pat partner ect ect ect …… and indeed, some do, but for the overwhelming majority, that will not be their lot later in life.

Thank God for the likes of Mrs McGee when we have had our fill and moved on.

And as for comments that the girls like what they do – yes, of course there are some that think it's a hoot and have a laugh, but for the majority you are bluffing yourself if you think that smile is genuine – most get little pleasure out of it, It strips them of self dignity and self worth, they no more enjoy servicing "long noses" than they enjoy the poverty and lack of opportunity that sent them South in the first place.

For every one that makes success of been on the game, there are a dozen more who find it thoroughly unpleasent and degrading.

Don't kid yourself – its easy to pretend a turd is a chocolate pastry if one has too.

A very high number of these girls turn down offers to get married and live normal lives outside of Thailand. And its not just offers from old men. I have heard a number of cases of men 20 to 30 years old that offer to marry a Thai girls.

There is also a high number of Thai and farang couples in the west. If there was no way of the farangs to meet the Thai girls then all the girls would be stuck working in rice fields till they died. Think of the good fortune that the hundreds of thousands of Thai girls that have families around the world have gained from the Bargirl scene.

You are quite right, I don't know if its hundreds of thousands, tens of thousands certainly - but whatever the figure is, that is to miss the point: they are representative of a lucky group for lack of a better way of putting it - and its a minority group at that.

Ther are 2 additional points I think your argument misses: firstly, as SBK notes above, there are other types of prositution in Thailand. the ex-pat scene represents what could be described as the more plesent, or more lucrative and monitored side of the business, but there is also that market that caters for poor Thai's - it operates out of the shanty areas of Thailand, the slums and the rural areas - and that market is a sad sad market indeed, where incidents of STD's and drug abuse are far higher than it is in the ex-pat scene.

The second point is this - the prostitution scene is a growing market - not only in Thailand, but throughout South East Asia - it is not now or in 5 or 10 years time, but in a generations' time, when all those on the game now become OAP's (like all of us will one day) - it's then that I believe the consequences of whats happening now will start to be felt back home, when the percentage of single girls whose charm and youth has long left them, will be felt - and felt real bad because many of South east Asia's countries (including Thailand) do not have social sexcurity systems that will be able to provide the support and help this growing community of elderly, retired and poor ex-sex workers will need.

Are you corrrect to note that there are girls who have hit it lucky - and I made that observation earlier myself, but I belive it is representative of a small portion overall of those on the game. For the majority, the long term outlook is sadly very bleak indeed. As for those who do get married, and I am not going to get into another "stats" argument with someone (one's enough for the time been!!), it should also be kept in mind that the divorce rate in this demographic group is the highest in Thailand - by far the highest. The majority of the marriges end in faliure within 3 - 5 years - the figure is not far off 3/4's of all marriges to bar girls. Interestingly, before I get jumped on for been a pessimist, there is one very suprizing and unexpected stat amongst marriges between bar girls and ex-pats, and its this: the longer they stay married, the more likely they are to stay married, and once it passes something like 10years (I have quoted the exact figures for respective timeframes a year or 2 back on a simialr thread), it is interesting to note that these cross-culturale/transnational marriges between bar grils and ex-pats actually show have a higher long term success rate than do marriges between Thai's on a percentage basis. Now hows that for a comlete trun around......... but (and of course there has to be a but at the end), it's a very small figure and to use it to present a picture of the "state of affairs" does not give an accurate picture overall.

Its sad business - and for every one successfull outrcome there are a dozen plus sad stories in the long run.

The question could be: does the likelyhood of ultimate failure justify stopping all from having their chance to be lucky?

50% of all marriges fail. You fail to realize that the age difference and the cultural differences between the Thai couples are high so if you boil down the stats to regular similarly aged couples I am sure you would find that Thai farang relationships are atleast as successful as the rest.

I take issue with even the idea of prostitution. All relationships in the west have something to do with money. Rich men have better looking wives. Its a fact.

[tropo]

I take issue with even the idea of prostitution. All relationships in the west have something to do with money. Rich men have better looking wives. Its a fact.

How often do we need to hear this ridiculous argument.

None of my relationships "in the West" in my younger years had anything to do with money. Often my partners would be earning more than I was.

[Ulysses G.]

There are many many different forms of prostitution in this country, not just the ones that cater to white men. And it is a well documented fact that not all of it is voluntary and not all of it is adult women.

That is perfectly true, but why are Celeste McGee and many NGOs and religious groups always attacking voluntary prostitution between consenting adults that caters to white men and lying about what goes on there?

There are terrible brothels with underage girls and sexual slavery all over the place that are completely ignored by these hypocrites!

[sokal]

I take issue with even the idea of prostitution. All relationships in the west have something to do with money. Rich men have better looking wives. Its a fact.

How often do we need to hear this ridiculous argument.

None of my relationships "in the West" in my younger years had anything to do with money. Often my partners would be earning more than I was.

None of those relationships lasted either. Money is the number one reason for divorce in the US.

Edited August 17, 2009 by sokal

[Neeranam]

And as for comments that the girls like what they do – yes, of course there are some that think it’s a hoot and have a laugh, but for the majority you are bluffing yourself if you think that smile is genuine – most get little pleasure out of it, It strips them of self dignity and self worth, they no more enjoy servicing “long noses” than they enjoy the poverty and lack of opportunity that sent them South in the first place.

For every one that makes success of been on the game, there are a dozen more who find it thoroughly unpleasent and degrading.

Don’t kid yourself – its easy to pretend a turd is a chocolate pastry if one has too.

[Ulysses G.]

Don't kid yourself – its easy to pretend a turd is a chocolate pastry if one has too.

I guess that we will have to take your word for that.

[cdnvic]

Don't kid yourself – its easy to pretend a turd is a chocolate pastry if one has too.

I guess that we will have to take your word for that.

Note: Never accept seconds on dessert at the Neeranam residence.

[cdnvic]

If she were genuinely helping "sex slaves" I'd be all behind her efforts. That's a good cause and not one for the faint hearted. Unfortunately I get the impression that she considers all prostitution as sex slavery and is really just introducing shame to consenting adults.

[Ulysses G.]

cdnvic is one sensible person.

[tropo]

I take issue with even the idea of prostitution. All relationships in the west have something to do with money. Rich men have better looking wives. Its a fact.

How often do we need to hear this ridiculous argument.

None of my relationships "in the West" in my younger years had anything to do with money. Often my partners would be earning more than I was.

None of those relationships lasted either. Money is the number one reason for divorce in the US.

Perhaps it's a bit different (or better) in Australia. None of those relationships lasted because I wasn't ready to settle down. Money had absolutely nothing to do with it.

When I visited the US, I did find that the females there were more concerned about money than their Aussie counterparts.

Edited August 17, 2009 by tropo

[dale8]

Hello, there will be a few ladies to take the place of the lady she helps. It is an economic problem that should be addressed as people in rural Thailand do not get a good enough education to get a good paying job to help their family, and it is more easy to rent their body to send money to their family. The slaves are not in the tourist areas as the ladies I have seen there can come and go as they wish, but I will investigate this issue more.

[Jingthing]

The slaves are not in the tourist areas as the ladies I have seen there can come and go as they wish

Yes, but based on the media link provided, it seems clear the Okie-Bangkok church lady is focused like a laser beam specifically on those very same tourist areas. Even she admits the owners don't really care if she recruits the so called slaves to her program. What slave owner in your wildest imagination would not resist having their chattel stolen? Bottom line, the men and women she is targeting are not slaves.

Another poster said do not judge this church lady, she does good work. She judges based on her clearly fundamentalist religious anti-progressive programming. She wants to "heal" ladyboys of their sexual identity confusion. Do you suppose she is trying to help them be better women or perhaps to brainwash them into thinking they are mentally diseased? She can judge but we can't? I'll pass on that.

Edited August 17, 2009 by Jingthing

[zorro1]

Don't kid yourself – its easy to pretend a turd is a chocolate pastry if one has too.

I guess that we will have to take your word for that.

[sbk]

I think this topic has run its course.

The number of posts in violation of forum rules is too excessive to bother resuscitating this thread.