Giving 30 Days Notice When Leaving A School

[weka]

If you had to leave a school (and effectively break with the contract), how much notice would you give the school that you will be leaving?

Most contracts say 30 days notice to terminate contract.

Are there any repercussions for , say, giving a fortnight or a week's notice?

Is the contract, or breach thereof, worth worrying about?

Over the 6 plus years at my present school I have seen nearly every leaving teacher depart with little or no notice immediately after receiving their monthly salary.

If you couldn't see out the month, would you feel ok giving a week or fortnight's notice?

just wondering...

[Scott]

It happens and it is quite unnecessary much of the time. It's also very unprofessional.

One of the reasons that administrators are so wary of foreign teachers is because of things like this.

I am aware that there are two sides to the story, however.

[twschw]

It is indeed unprofessional. If the employee does not need a good reference from the school I guess that, from the teacher’s viewpoint, it wouldn't make a difference. However, if you leave without notice or less than stated in your contract don't cry foul when you get a less than complimentary reference.

We do ask perspective teachers why they left their current position and we do confirm it with the school. Breaking a contract is not an automatic no hire, but it will be a tie breaker with some one just as qualified who has met his/her commitments.

[Loaded]

If the school did it to you, just you would be negatively affected. This happens, but it's relatively rare and you are protected by effective labor laws.

If you do it to the school, your students, fellow teachers and the schools's administrators are negatively affected. This happens fairly frequently and the school isn't protected by anything. It could of course sue the teacher for breach of contract through the civil courts but this is expensive, impractical and I have never heard of a school doing this.

From my experience a few teachers are constantly breaking contracts and usually for selfish personal gain reasons. School's won't break a contract with a teacher who is performing satisfactorily.

I agree with Scott. Many schools don't trust foreign teachers.

Edited August 18, 2009 by Loaded

[Scott]

In the past, there were a lot of highly unqualified teachers working in Thailand. There were few, if any visa restrictions, no police checks and either no work permit provided or no need for a work permit. In the past several years it's tightened up quite a bit. There were also a lot of teachers whose moral character and drinking habits tended to be questionable. These teachers were often the problem.

They took excessive sick leave, were constantly late and often knew their days were numbered. They would routinely collect their pay and do a runner on the school. For schools that had a reasonably legitimate English program, this left not only a gap in the teaching schedule, but it left them with the expenses incurred for the visa processing, work permit, insurance and any other benefits they may have put out.

Where I work, we have a rather healthy deduction in salary for the first 3 months (probation). This used to be given back to the teacher at the end of the probation period. So, this type of employee would wait until after the probation period, get the salary and the money and then do a runner. The result was the money was given back at the end of the contract. Now it's kept until the teacher finishes the contract and leaves the school.

It's unfortunate because overall, the quality and professionalism of the teachers (and applicants in general) is much better than some years ago, but now the system is more or less geared to deal with the few who were wholly untrustworthy.

[phetaroi]

If you had to leave a school (and effectively break with the contract), how much notice would you give the school that you will be leaving?

Most contracts say 30 days notice to terminate contract.

Are there any repercussions for , say, giving a fortnight or a week's notice?

Is the contract, or breach thereof, worth worrying about?

Over the 6 plus years at my present school I have seen nearly every leaving teacher depart with little or no notice immediately after receiving their monthly salary.

If you couldn't see out the month, would you feel ok giving a week or fortnight's notice?

One thing I have noted as I read this forum is how often there are complaints, rants, and hissy fits about a Thai school appearing not to be abiding by a contract, or what people think a contract says.

On the other hand, I have noted an occasional post about a teacher not completing a contract.

I wonder if its the distrust on BOTH sides that is part of the overall problem?

[phetaroi]

It is indeed unprofessional. If the employee does not need a good reference from the school I guess that, from the teacher's viewpoint, it wouldn't make a difference. However, if you leave without notice or less than stated in your contract don't cry foul when you get a less than complimentary reference.

We do ask perspective teachers why they left their current position and we do confirm it with the school. Breaking a contract is not an automatic no hire, but it will be a tie breaker with some one just as qualified who has met his/her commitments.

And it goes a little beyond that. When I would interview teachers in the States -- and a few had taught overseas -- it was very noticeable if there were gaps in service. Anytime this question would arise the answer was almost always something along the lines of either "well, we didn't see eye to eye so I didn't include that service on my resume" or just no answer at all. Either way, it makes one appear dishonest. Result, 100% no hire.

[Scott]

I don't rule out gaps in service or uncompleted contracts. In Thailand there are just too many exceptions and reasons why people leave. What I look for is a pattern of leaving which can't be easily explained. A fair number of people have worked for agencies and have been assigned and reassigned from one place to another. This is understandable. There is the occasional person who is quite honest about what happened--they are quite often worth a try.

There are so many variables in the working conditions at the schools in Thailand. I sit down with new teachers and go over the conditions in detail--not only the contract, but how it is applied. Reading it and understanding what happens are very different. A contract also doesn't spell out all of the policies.

I also try to let teachers know that we want/expect them to complete their contractual obligations, but that should lady luck shine on them, I wouldn't expect them to stay. A lot of teachers keep me informed about what they are looking at doing. I occasionally have teachers who have much, much better job offers and they would be silly to pass it up. This works fairly well, but a few people are terminally dishonest and just can't do the courtesy of keeping anyone informed.

[phetaroi]

I don't rule out gaps in service or uncompleted contracts. In Thailand there are just too many exceptions and reasons why people leave. What I look for is a pattern of leaving which can't be easily explained. A fair number of people have worked for agencies and have been assigned and reassigned from one place to another. This is understandable. There is the occasional person who is quite honest about what happened--they are quite often worth a try.

There are so many variables in the working conditions at the schools in Thailand. I sit down with new teachers and go over the conditions in detail--not only the contract, but how it is applied. Reading it and understanding what happens are very different. A contract also doesn't spell out all of the policies.

I also try to let teachers know that we want/expect them to complete their contractual obligations, but that should lady luck shine on them, I wouldn't expect them to stay. A lot of teachers keep me informed about what they are looking at doing. I occasionally have teachers who have much, much better job offers and they would be silly to pass it up. This works fairly well, but a few people are terminally dishonest and just can't do the courtesy of keeping anyone informed.

I understand, and I have to amend my previous statement a bit. A gap in service is sometimes okay. What's not okay is when it is left off a resume and is, basically, a cover-up. That was more to what I was referring.

I also must add that we were a very fortunate school system that until the last three years had no problem attracting an excess of candidates.

[Scott]

The teachers I have trouble understanding are the ones who will leave one job for another when the salary difference is only a few thousand baht. Especially since they will start over with probation, or have to move and often have traded in one set of dislikes for an equally bad set.

We've had more than a few who have re-applied to our school and returned because it wasn't all it was cracked up to be elsewhere.

The director used to not want me to hire them back because they left--but I convinced her that it was a good idea since they now know it's where they want to be. By and large, it's been a good decision and they have settled in and gotten on with the program.

[tamsom]

Seems like a fairly one-sided argument. During probation, which according to Thai Labour law is 119 days or as stated in the contract, notice by both parties is given at 15 days. Sure, you are protected if toasted before your contract is up, but how many teachers have the fortitude to go through the legal process for one month's pay? They could also lose in court and have to pay a lawyer's bill. There is virtually no school, run by a Som-O in Thailand that is "professional." Cheap schools, like mine, gave 10 month contracts to every new teacher. Riddle me this: I have not had a contract for over 3 months, do I have to give notice? Any feedback would be appreciated. Teachers would not be so unprofessional if those who did "the right thing" were paid after they had given notice. Examples of this run in the thousands.

[Ijustwannateach]

^I believe I have read this law before; the legally required notice is *not* 30 days, even during a probationary period, and being forced to sign a contract doesn't obligate you to give up your rights under labour law (does anyone have a link?).

[way2muchcoffee]

Teachers would not be so unprofessional if those who did "the right thing" were paid after they had given notice. Examples of this run in the thousands.

Schools might be more professional if teachers had not pulled runners in the tens of thousands.

[phetaroi]

The teachers I have trouble understanding are the ones who will leave one job for another when the salary difference is only a few thousand baht. Especially since they will start over with probation, or have to move and often have traded in one set of dislikes for an equally bad set.

We've had more than a few who have re-applied to our school and returned because it wasn't all it was cracked up to be elsewhere.

The director used to not want me to hire them back because they left--but I convinced her that it was a good idea since they now know it's where they want to be. By and large, it's been a good decision and they have settled in and gotten on with the program.

LOL! Yes, that happened at our school in the States many times. One thing I found in education was that the more undesirable (for wont of a better word) working at a particular school was, the more teachers would band together, which is completely understandable. But, in a better school the number of minor issues that would suddenly become a crisis grew exponentially. Teachers would leave over these silly issues and then learn what it was like in the rest of the educational world. I had quite a few that sought to return to our school -- and if they were good teachers, that was fine. I had a few others who did not return, but did apologize for their lack of perception about what was really important. I think it's all human nature.

[elkangorito]

^I believe I have read this law before; the legally required notice is *not* 30 days, even during a probationary period, and being forced to sign a contract doesn't obligate you to give up your rights under labour law (does anyone have a link?).

There is absolutely nothing in "Labour Protection Act B.E. 2541 (1998)" regarding periods of notice for an employee, except if the employee is working under an "unfixed" contract (no fixed termination date).

http://eng.mol.go.th/law_labour.html

[elkangorito]

Seems like a fairly one-sided argument. During probation, which according to Thai Labour law is 119 days or as stated in the contract, notice by both parties is given at 15 days. Sure, you are protected if toasted before your contract is up, but how many teachers have the fortitude to go through the legal process for one month's pay? They could also lose in court and have to pay a lawyer's bill. There is virtually no school, run by a Som-O in Thailand that is "professional." Cheap schools, like mine, gave 10 month contracts to every new teacher. Riddle me this: I have not had a contract for over 3 months, do I have to give notice? Any feedback would be appreciated. Teachers would not be so unprofessional if those who did "the right thing" were paid after they had given notice. Examples of this run in the thousands.

From where did you get this stuff? Please provide proof.

[Scott]

I am not an attorney, but I have a good friend who is one and we have spoken about Thai law and contracts in depth. I don't want to misquote him and anyone is welcome to challenge my information. According to him, whether or not you have a written contract is of little importance because under the law if you work for someone (I am assuming on a full-time regular basis), a contract is implied. Thus, you would fall under all the relevant laws whether or not you had a written contract.

A contract can stipulate conditions which are different from the law, but a contract cannot contravene the law under normal circumstances. So, if you both sign and agree to 30 days notice--then 30 days notice may well be in effect. If no period of time is mentioned, then if the law states 15 days that would be what was needed.

I have a former employee who was recently released and I suspect she will go to the Ministry of Labor claiming unfair dismissal. I spoke with at length and told her officially I have to discourage such a move, however, if I were going to the Ministry this is what I would say, this is what I would allege...etc. I don't know if her dismissal was unfair or not, but it was handled in a questionable manner and the actual perpetrator of the misdeed may still be amongst us. Much of what she is basing it on is related to the contract. If she does go and we are called in, I will keep you posted.

[Geekfreaklover]

The lesson here is to read the contract.

I recently had to leave a job after working for three weeks and didn't get paid a satang because I have had to leave Thailand due to an emergency in my home country. The agency gets all the money from the school for three weeks. Bully for them. All my travel expenses, hundreds of hours of teaching and they get to keep all the loot.

Watch what you sign.

[Scott]

And not just what you sign, but the policies used to implement it. Our school does not pay people until the end of the month. If you leave earlier, with or without notice, your money will not be given to you until that time. You are entitled to your money and you will get it, but not until then. We have had people who didn't have a bank account to deposit it in and left the country end up losing it.

If they know this in advance and give me a written statement, I can release it to someone on their behalf, but a phone call won't do it.

[Captain Haddock]

How about when a skool contract says you should give them 3 months notice (reciprocal) but have already broken said contract many times? Under Thai labour law isn't it only 1 months notice that is required, regardless of what the (worthless) contract says?

[Scott]

Three months sounds pretty long. It would seem that if the school requires three months notice, then the employee also would need to get 3 months notice.

I don't know for sure, but we require a 1 month notice (except during probation), and generally if someone is released, they are given a months notice that their contract will be terminated. The exception is when it is for just cause--such as physically abusive behavior etc., in which case it is immediate, but the employee is generally paid to the end of that month. This isn't done as a humanitarian gesture, it's done to keep an employee from making waves, I suspect.

[Captain Haddock]

That's why I said reciprocal - the notice is 3 months both ways.

My questions: is that 3 month period enforceable by Thai law, or is the law just 1 month (if there is any law on this)?

The skool have taken a cash deposit over 3 months, and that would presumably be kept by them if the 3 month period was not adhered to.

[haltes]

Schools might be more professional if teachers had not pulled runners in the tens of thousands.

Teachers might be more professional if schools had not changed contracts after being signed, deducted money illegally to enforce a contract that is normally very one sided etc.

IME, schools get the teacher they deserve, treat your staff well and they will treat you well. Treat them badly and they will do likewise. Mutual respect it what is needed from both sides.

[Scott]

Let's keep on topic. this thread isn't about how terrible teachers are or how terrible schools are. It's not about which came first the chicken or the egg.