Money-saving In Home & Garden

[manarak]

I post this in the house section, since I didn't find a "home & garden" forum.

When in Thailand, I see most people don't waste second thoughts about saving energy, water, etc.

When owning a house, it quickly becomes apparent that one should not run 10 A/C units non-stop, otherwise the power bill will be huge.

In my country, there are several things one can do to save on the utilities bills:

* house insulation / isolation:

this is for example putting in windows with 4 or even 6 layers of glass, double ceilings stuffed with glass wool, put an extra layer on the exteriors of brick walls, etc.

=> is this something that is useful in Thailand? Obviously, the insulation would have to work in a way as to keep the inside cool, so I'd expect the best effects to be achieved through shading (double roof and shading the walls with panels).

Who did this kind of work on his house? Did it have positive effects?

* solar energy:

one would think if you live in a sunny place, there's money to save with solar cells.

=> does the math work out in Thailand? How long until break-even is reached with solar panels in Thailand?

Is power expensive enough in Thailand for solar panels to be effective?

If you have other ideas, shoot!

[longball53098]

All of those things are possible here in LOS but are not common in the towns and villages because most people cannot afford to spend the money these energy savings things cost plus most don't know anything about this stuff. They're happy with one light, a fan and a TV and running to the market 3 times a day.

Do some research and you can find the products and methods are here but they will cost you. And there is a cost benefit factor. If you spend a ton of cash to make the place efficient what is the payback? Is it worth it?

[dsfbrit]

I had a well dug in the garden 5 years ago. Best 70,000 baht I ever spent.

I was spending about 1000 baht a month on water at the time, as we have a large garden and had a lot of new trees and grass to nurture. I suspect our water bill would be less now anyway, but we often have water shortages where I live in Pattaya - and with the well we always have water.

In fact as I live at the top of a small hill in our village, befeore we had the well, when there was a drop in water power for whatever reason, water often did not reach us at the top of the hill at all - or was just a trickle!

[jaapfries]

I had a well dug in the garden 5 years ago. Best 70,000 baht I ever spent.

I was spending about 1000 baht a month on water at the time, as we have a large garden and had a lot of new trees and grass to nurture. I suspect our water bill would be less now anyway, but we often have water shortages where I live in Pattaya - and with the well we always have water.

In fact as I live at the top of a small hill in our village, befeore we had the well, when there was a drop in water power for whatever reason, water often did not reach us at the top of the hill at all - or was just a trickle!

Dear 'dsfbrit',

I hate to be the bearer of bad news and thus dampening your mood of exhiliration, but under Thai Law, ALL wells must be properly registered. An approved water-volume-measuring device ('water-meter') must be installed and the amount of water used must be paid for to the local government, on amonthly basis.

I realize that there must be many illegally operated water-wells in Thailand, but like everything else; there are NO shortcuts in Thailand; eventually, the "rules" will catch-up with people and then you might not wish to have had this well for 5 years, since the fine imposed shall be in accordance with the length of the legal infraction, in other words "severe" (by simple ay of "their" assesment of your usage").

Solar Hot Water Systems; if purchased for something around the Tbt. 60K, will have an ROI of about 6~7 years (well worth it, therefore !), whereas Solar PV-systems are still way too lengthy an investment due to the (still) relativally low cost of electricity in Thailand.

If you're interested in affordable Solar Hot Water, just PM me anytime you like and I'll point you in the right direction, okay ?

Cheers,

JGK/Pattaya

[Naam]

I had a well dug in the garden 5 years ago. Best 70,000 baht I ever spent.

I was spending about 1000 baht a month on water at the time, as we have a large garden and had a lot of new trees and grass to nurture. I suspect our water bill would be less now anyway, but we often have water shortages where I live in Pattaya - and with the well we always have water.

In fact as I live at the top of a small hill in our village, befeore we had the well, when there was a drop in water power for whatever reason, water often did not reach us at the top of the hill at all - or was just a trickle!

Dear 'dsfbrit',

I hate to be the bearer of bad news and thus dampening your mood of exhiliration, but under Thai Law, ALL wells must be properly registered. An approved water-volume-measuring device ('water-meter') must be installed and the amount of water used must be paid for to the local government, on amonthly basis.

i can vividly imagine how Dsfbrit is shaking with fear and peeing in his pants.

[Rimmer]

If you want hot water site your stainless steel water tank in a place where the sun shines on it, you will get all the scalding hot water you need. Even a plastic one gets very hot.

Much has been written on TV about what makes an energy efficient cool house, everyone seems to have their own ideas about what works and what does not.

[wilsongbrown]

I had a well dug in the garden 5 years ago. Best 70,000 baht I ever spent.

I was spending about 1000 baht a month on water at the time, as we have a large garden and had a lot of new trees and grass to nurture. I suspect our water bill would be less now anyway, but we often have water shortages where I live in Pattaya - and with the well we always have water.

In fact as I live at the top of a small hill in our village, befeore we had the well, when there was a drop in water power for whatever reason, water often did not reach us at the top of the hill at all - or was just a trickle!

Dear 'dsfbrit',

I hate to be the bearer of bad news and thus dampening your mood of exhiliration, but under Thai Law, ALL wells must be properly registered. An approved water-volume-measuring device ('water-meter') must be installed and the amount of water used must be paid for to the local government, on amonthly basis.

On a more serious note. If you build a house along the lines of your country of origin, usually low ceilings and small, separate rooms divided by cement walls, it will be extremely hot and you're using aircon to keep it artificially cool will of course cost you a small fortune. People relocating from colder climes tend to assume electricity is cheaper here, it most certainly isn't.

Some of the locals have adopted these Western style designs as a way of 'moving up the ladder' or to sell on to farang. Thinking outside the box, and I know it's quite difficult for many here, but, consider a Thai from the boonies having moved to cold old europe and building an older style Thai house and complaining they're having to pay too much to heat it? I built a house here in keeping with the thinking of Laurie Baker of India whose buildings were designed in such a way to encourage natural air flow. High ceilings, vents open to thermal winds etc.

As for the solar power - in the name of all that is holy why, in this hot and sunny country, does the Thai government insist on keeping it so expensive there's no recourse other than to pay for unecological expensive fossil based fuel energy? Unlike the Japan most of them aspire too with it's cold climate and extensive government supported solar power?

Come on Thailand, time for yet another crackdown, on energy waste.

[doggie888888]

I am collecting rainwater off my roof to be used in garden (approx 1/2rai). Works well, except nobody in Pattaya has heard of a first flush system so I gotta clean out gutters and tanks every so often.

I use solar for hot water. Researched solar for electricity but too cost prohibitive and dare I trust anyone in Pattaya to undertake this?

Looking at properly insulating my roof - there is this mob called LOHR in Pattaya so may use them except I am not sure if they are any good. At the moment I feel heat emanating thru the ceiling on full sun days, but luckily I have verandas and trees and lots of windows so house is generally cooler than outside anyway but could be better I think...it seems to me heat is coming from the roof, so I assume insulation there is inadeqaute. Read somewhere that in the tropics houses should be low thermal mass (eg wood) so it does not retain heat. Rely on lots of windows for cross ventilation and rely on deep verandas and trees to keep out direct sun from heating external walls.

[LennyW]

I am collecting rainwater off my roof to be used in garden (approx 1/2rai). Works well, except nobody in Pattaya has heard of a first flush system so I gotta clean out gutters and tanks every so often.

I use solar for hot water. Researched solar for electricity but too cost prohibitive and dare I trust anyone in Pattaya to undertake this?

Looking at properly insulating my roof - there is this mob called LOHR in Pattaya so may use them except I am not sure if they are any good. At the moment I feel heat emanating thru the ceiling on full sun days, but luckily I have verandas and trees and lots of windows so house is generally cooler than outside anyway but could be better I think...it seems to me heat is coming from the roof, so I assume insulation there is inadeqaute. Read somewhere that in the tropics houses should be low thermal mass (eg wood) so it does not retain heat. Rely on lots of windows for cross ventilation and rely on deep verandas and trees to keep out direct sun from heating external walls.

Be careful, that PU foam sparay pretty much "seals" your roof, i have heard of people having some condensation problems after applying that systems, better to have a decent airflow through your roof space.

[doggie888888]

I am collecting rainwater off my roof to be used in garden (approx 1/2rai). Works well, except nobody in Pattaya has heard of a first flush system so I gotta clean out gutters and tanks every so often.

I use solar for hot water. Researched solar for electricity but too cost prohibitive and dare I trust anyone in Pattaya to undertake this?

Looking at properly insulating my roof - there is this mob called LOHR in Pattaya so may use them except I am not sure if they are any good. At the moment I feel heat emanating thru the ceiling on full sun days, but luckily I have verandas and trees and lots of windows so house is generally cooler than outside anyway but could be better I think...it seems to me heat is coming from the roof, so I assume insulation there is inadeqaute. Read somewhere that in the tropics houses should be low thermal mass (eg wood) so it does not retain heat. Rely on lots of windows for cross ventilation and rely on deep verandas and trees to keep out direct sun from heating external walls.

Be careful, that PU foam sparay pretty much "seals" your roof, i have heard of people having some condensation problems after applying that systems, better to have a decent airflow through your roof space.

Thanks Lenny for the tip, much appreciated. My problem is my there is no cavity between ceiling and roof tiles (ie ceiling follows the roof line)...at the moment as far as I know there is only the standard aluminium foil for insulation, which perhaps is inadequate.

[manarak]

Thank you for the interesting posts so far - I want just to make it clear that I am no treehugger, and my concern is about making houses more efficient economically.

One thing I am surprised about is why heating the water with solar panels would turn a benefit while powering other things doesn't?

On what does that depend?

The well is also a good idea - especially with a pool.

And Jaapfries, while all you say is probably true (and thank you for the information), I don't intend to do things in Thailand "too much right" like a number of my people do here at home, for example stopping at red pedestrian lights at 03:00 am with no car in sight. It is one of the reasons I need a change of p(l)ace.

So I intend to do it as most Thais do.

And really, what are the odds that the well gets discovered if we maintain a water consumption anyway?

If I get cought, I will probably have to pay money to the inspector to return to the "there is no illegal well there" status.

So... any data on the effects of a double roof, or shading the roof? (for example a complete roof shading by solar panels - that would have two functions - power generation and shading)

What about surrounding the first floor with terraces and balconies, so that the walls never get direct sun on them?

[dsfbrit]

I had a well dug in the garden 5 years ago. Best 70,000 baht I ever spent.

I was spending about 1000 baht a month on water at the time, as we have a large garden and had a lot of new trees and grass to nurture. I suspect our water bill would be less now anyway, but we often have water shortages where I live in Pattaya - and with the well we always have water.

In fact as I live at the top of a small hill in our village, befeore we had the well, when there was a drop in water power for whatever reason, water often did not reach us at the top of the hill at all - or was just a trickle!

Dear 'dsfbrit',

I hate to be the bearer of bad news and thus dampening your mood of exhiliration, but under Thai Law, ALL wells must be properly registered. An approved water-volume-measuring device ('water-meter') must be installed and the amount of water used must be paid for to the local government, on amonthly basis.

i can vividly imagine how Dsfbrit is shaking with fear and peeing in his pants.

I must say its not often I sit at my desk laughing - but your reply Naam - delivered with perfect comedic timing - did sum up my thoughts exactly. I am just off to change my Pampers.

Edited August 23, 2009 by dsfbrit

[doggie888888]

Thank you for the interesting posts so far - I want just to make it clear that I am no treehugger, and my concern is about making houses more efficient economically.

One thing I am surprised about is why heating the water with solar panels would turn a benefit while powering other things doesn't?

On what does that depend?

The well is also a good idea - especially with a pool.

And Jaapfries, while all you say is probably true (and thank you for the information), I don't intend to do things in Thailand "too much right" like a number of my people do here at home, for example stopping at red pedestrian lights at 03:00 am with no car in sight. It is one of the reasons I need a change of p(l)ace.

So I intend to do it as most Thais do.

And really, what are the odds that the well gets discovered if we maintain a water consumption anyway?

If I get cought, I will probably have to pay money to the inspector to return to the "there is no illegal well there" status.

So... any data on the effects of a double roof, or shading the roof? (for example a complete roof shading by solar panels - that would have two functions - power generation and shading)

What about surrounding the first floor with terraces and balconies, so that the walls never get direct sun on them?

I'll try to answer the bits in red but I am no expert! Just a homeowner who just wanted to be a little green and save money while I am at it, so did a little research. Solar for hot water is a fairly straightforward propositon - just get the panels and get the experts to instal (even in Pattaya they can do it satisfactorily). To convert solar to electricity, you need more panels, a battery and other bits and pieces (I forget what they are called)...the costs add up. Even in developed countries, one way to recoup costs is if you are able to sell your surplus electricity back to the grid. Costs and complexity aside, I did not dare proceed...I did not find anyone in Pattaya whom I was comfortable with to do it, so I did not proceed. Perhaps in a few more years.

[manarak]

Doggie, do you actually have that water heater installed?

Does it deliver hot water consistently (i.e. not from a limited supply in a heated tank)?

[dsfbrit]

Neighbours with swimming pools who have installed water pools agree with the neighbours who installed salt water pools that the salt water option is better. I dont have nor want a pool, so I cannot vouch for this personally. It does however save a lot on maintenance and care - keeping the chemical levels correct. I am pretty certain the frogs and toads dont like salt water either!

Trees are very effective early morning and late evening, but when the sun is high and at its hottest, they are obviously no use at all to protect the roof of the house. In the garden though they are really effective. I have trees in most parts of my garden where I dont want to sit in the sun. That is the Thai way and its very effective.

I have read that people put a 'fan' in the roof that cools the roof area. Its a purpose built fan - not sure how much energy it uses.

If your water isn't free, or you dont like waste, then use a hose and manual water sprinklers. Those 'automatic' timed sprayers, with underground plastic pipes, get bunged up with muck pretty quickly and seem to put water everywhere you dont want it. At least with a hose and sprinklers you can direct the water where you really want it.The neighbour up the road with a large garden was also pretty miffed that he went away for a week and the timer disn't work. His trees were OK, but a lot of smaller shrubs/flowers were pretty poorly.

If you get tempted to have a pond with fish, then make sure you understand all the downsides and costs. The water will be green and you will never see your fish unless you spend unusual amounts of time trying to resolve the problem. 5 years on and I still have a waterfall pond/ feature with green water. It doesn't bother me too much - just accepted the failure and moved on! I thought the best advice I got was from one shop that sold water filters. He suggested I put in some chlorine !!! Not sure the fish like that too much!

If you want to get a large satellite dish in the garden to save money or get more channels, make sure you understand how it works and that you will be getting 500 hundred channels in Indian and Arabic - also it will need to be repaired a lot and you may need to become an expert in satellite technology and the internet. I have my dish dismantled at the moment to replace the Actuator - the motor that moves the dish - as the guy who installed it 5 years ago was not that keen to drive to my place to make repairs. His money is made installing the dish. I enjoy fixing things - so no big deal for me.

Other electrical saving you can make. Dont buy an electric chainsaw, unless you are trying to cut daffodils. Useless.

Edited August 24, 2009 by dsfbrit

[bkkjames]

I had a well dug in the garden 5 years ago. Best 70,000 baht I ever spent.

I was spending about 1000 baht a month on water at the time, as we have a large garden and had a lot of new trees and grass to nurture. I suspect our water bill would be less now anyway, but we often have water shortages where I live in Pattaya - and with the well we always have water.

In fact as I live at the top of a small hill in our village, befeore we had the well, when there was a drop in water power for whatever reason, water often did not reach us at the top of the hill at all - or was just a trickle!

Dear 'dsfbrit',

I hate to be the bearer of bad news and thus dampening your mood of exhiliration, but under Thai Law, ALL wells must be properly registered. An approved water-volume-measuring device ('water-meter') must be installed and the amount of water used must be paid for to the local government, on amonthly basis.

I realize that there must be many illegally operated water-wells in Thailand, but like everything else; there are NO shortcuts in Thailand; eventually, the "rules" will catch-up with people and then you might not wish to have had this well for 5 years, since the fine imposed shall be in accordance with the length of the legal infraction, in other words "severe" (by simple ay of "their" assesment of your usage").

Solar Hot Water Systems; if purchased for something around the Tbt. 60K, will have an ROI of about 6~7 years (well worth it, therefore !), whereas Solar PV-systems are still way too lengthy an investment due to the (still) relativally low cost of electricity in Thailand.

If you're interested in affordable Solar Hot Water, just PM me anytime you like and I'll point you in the right direction, okay ?

Cheers,

JGK/Pattaya

While some people may call it a well, others refer to it as gold fish pond.

[doggie888888]

Doggie, do you actually have that water heater installed?

Does it deliver hot water consistently (i.e. not from a limited supply in a heated tank)?

Yes, i have solar hot water. It stores the hot water in a tank so I guess it will run out if there is excessive use, in which case I can switch on the electric "booster". On one occassion we had a total of 4 adults (me, my partner and guests)...it never actually ran out. I cant remember how many litres is actually stores in the tank but I think it is 300litres...worked in out over 2 years ago.

However, recently after 3 cloudy days in a row with no sunny breaks, I found the water to be only warm-ish...then the sun reappeard on the 4th day! SO I have never turned on the booster, except to test it when they first installed.

[manarak]

Thx Doggie, interesting info.

So I get back to solar panels on the roof.

You said, in principle, that because a solar-powered water heater comes in a complete standard package, it is easy to put in place and cheap to do so.

Solar for hot water is a fairly straightforward propositon - just get the panels and get the experts to instal (even in Pattaya they can do it satisfactorily). To convert solar to electricity, you need more panels, a battery and other bits and pieces (I forget what they are called)...the costs add up. Even in developed countries, one way to recoup costs is if you are able to sell your surplus electricity back to the grid.

I expect I'll have a certain base consumption in my house:

A/C units (I've got kids and a wife who like comfort)

Pool pump

Fridge

IT equipment (quite a lot in my home)

etc.

not to forget the water heater

So... IF I am not going to sell anything back to the grid, but instead use all the power myself... and let's say the roof is 300 sqm...

I'll need a box making the balance between the grid and the solar power in realtime, and discarding any surplus.

What's the cost of power in East Pattaya?

Are there "expensive" and "cheap" hours like in Europe (i.e. cheap in the night, because the industry cannot use all the power of the nuclear plants, and expensive in the day, when the whole country is awake and consuming)?

I need to do the calculations.

Another advantage would be that in really hot periods:

1- the roof would be shielded by the solar panels

2- the panels would produce extra power that could be used for cooling

[manarak]

ok, cost of power is approx. 3.5 baht per KWh

off to do my calculations...

[manarak]

Doggie, maybe you ask those guys: http://www.samui-service.com/ they seem quite professional

And from their site, I know that the average power generated per square meter is 5-6 KWh/m2 in the hot season and 4-5 KWh/m2 in the season that's hot too but not so much as the other one.

http://www.samui-service.com/learn/learn-sp.htm

soo... let's take 5 KWh as an average... if 300 sqm of panels are installed, that would be 1500 KWh per day.

err... wait, there's something wrong here... only 10% can be transformed into electricity. So that's only 150 KWh.

Rough maths... I expect about 10k energy bill, maybe 66% of that would be caused during sunshine hours.... 150 KWh * 3.5 baht = 525 baht per day or 15750 baht per month.

Compared with approx 6600 baht of power bill caused during the day, it means that 125 sqm of panels would be enough to reduce my bill by about that amont in a month (if power generation is linearly proportional to installed surface).

But I'll obviously have to do a second calculation based on Wattage.

but the samui guys also say:

You want to power your 18000 BTU Samsung aircon with solar electricity? Forget it, these devices need a lot more of power to start their engines than you can produce by photovoltaik at a reasonable price.

dam_n.

I'll have to find out why they say that - it must be possible if the panel installation is big enough?

Then maybe it is possible to start the engines with grid energy and operate with solar energy? hmm.

Edited August 25, 2009 by manarak

[manarak]

ok, so I did my wattage homework.

here is what the power bill will more or less look like - I know I forgot some things, but then I've been rather generous with the rest.

BTW, the A/C units will be set at 26 °C.

The bill is about 15k a month, which leaves 10k (66%) of possible savings during the day.

And for a consumtion of 95.4 KWh (during daylight), I'd need about 200 sqm of panels.

So the cost of a 200 sqm installation must be compared to 10.000 baht savings a month.

[manarak]

I begin to realize it is wrong to use square meters to size the installation, since what's needed are watts and the watts depend on manufacturer.

The suntec panels advertize 13.6% efficiency on their STP210-18/Ub-1 model, which yields 210w at peak.

hmm...

I need 95.4 Kwh a day, so 95400 / 210 = 454 panels ?? holy shit! and that's at peak efficiency!

price?

I found a wholesaler selling pallets of those at "only" 18k USD for 26 panels...

that would put the cost of the panels alone at above 300k USD - all that for saving a monthly 10k baht ?

Is there a mistake in my calculations?

[doggie888888]

manarak, you arrived at same conclusion although I think usd300k would indicate there is an error...the cost of actually buying the panels, battery(s), switches etc etc so that you can convert solar to electricity (and store it) really is prohibitive but I dont recall it being USD300k.

i suppose it needs to be more popular to drive mass production locally before the prices will come down?

i don't know why the samui guy says you can't start the air cons: i thought that's where the battery(s) comes in for the sudden surge in use?

i think i will wait a few more years to check suppliers and prices.

the other alternative i considered was to get started and see what I can afford and install that first with the proviso of increasing capacity later on....even that was a rather costly proposition and in the end it all became rather overwhelming so I relegated it to the "too hard" basket for now.

eventually, I'd do it when the suppliers/installers here are more stable and competitive. this is thailand and i dont want to be the guinea pig!

[manarak]

I think the calculations are correct after all.

Here: http://www.solarpanelinfo.com/solar-panels...-panel-cost.php

They say that the best panel deals can be had at 4.3 USD per watt.

My estimation is even below that cost.

95400 * 4.30 = 410220 USD

So if I went with my original estimate of 18k USD for 26 panels @ 210w, I'd invest 314307 USD, let's take 20% off the bill because I am such a huge customer and throw in free installation: 251446 USD

This to save 10000 baht a month, or 120000 baht a year, about 4000 USD, so that investment's yield would be a whopping 1.6% (rounded up), not factoring in maintenance and replacement of faulty panels.

Not to mention the effect of the panels on the people around, i.e. "wow this guy is loaded", I'd have to spend extra on security, some clever burglars could just steal the panels and make huge $$$.

no thanks.

Edited February 25, 2010 by manarak

[manarak]

update:

yet here:

http://sunelec.com/

they claim 0.98 USD per watt, which would mean just 93492 USD of investment, which would then propel the yield to 4.3%.

I would invest if the net yield including maintenance was above 5%.

Maybe this is just a few years away.

[manarak]

hmm.

I think int the calculations I forgot to multiply the panel's power by the number of operating hours in the day. So if we say 10 hours of sun, this divides the number of needed panels by 10.

I have to take a second look at this.

manarak, you arrived at same conclusion although I think usd300k would indicate there is an error...the cost of actually buying the panels, battery(s), switches etc etc so that you can convert solar to electricity (and store it) really is prohibitive but I dont recall it being USD300k.

i suppose it needs to be more popular to drive mass production locally before the prices will come down?

i don't know why the samui guy says you can't start the air cons: i thought that's where the battery(s) comes in for the sudden surge in use?

i think i will wait a few more years to check suppliers and prices.

the other alternative i considered was to get started and see what I can afford and install that first with the proviso of increasing capacity later on....even that was a rather costly proposition and in the end it all became rather overwhelming so I relegated it to the "too hard" basket for now.

eventually, I'd do it when the suppliers/installers here are more stable and competitive. this is thailand and i dont want to be the guinea pig!