End to 30 day 'abusers'

[ChiangMaiThai]

First, I do not mean to be antagonistic here. I just wish to state the facts. The facts are that many, many farangs stay in Thailand for long periods by going to the border each month, stamping out and stamping back in for another month. Immigration officers across the country tell us that this is NOT abuse of the system. They tell us that there is NO LIMIT to the number of consecutive 30 day stays. And to date, by all accounts, this holds true and floods of farangs continue to cross over and back every day.

Now despite this, people like Dr. Pat Pong and others insist that people who stay long term in Thailand by way of the 30 day stamps are actually abusing the system. They then go further, calling these people 'endangered species', more than implying that sweeping changes are near and very much eluding to the notion that this will soon get you in real trouble. Despite repeated requests to give further details or name the source of this information, Dr. Pat Pong and others offer nothing more.

So, my point is simple. If, in 3 months, 6 months and a year down the line, thousands of farangs continue to stay long term in Thailand by way of heading to the border every month, the logical conclusion is that the credibility of Dr. Pat Pong and others who support his view must be held in serious question. Beyond that, an apology for what I would call scare mongering would be in order too.

If, on the other hand, within the next few months we suddenly see serious consequences for those who stayed long term here by way of 30 day stamps, then we can all say, 'Thank you Dr. Pat Pong for the inside information'.

I will be waiting and watching with interest.

[PREM-R]

I am sure that DR.PP does not need anyone to defend him on this but I do feel that it is unfair to attack him for merely stating the rule on 30 day 'no visa' stamps as set by the Thai authorities, (ie a person must have a return (onward?) ticket from the Kingdom within the period of 30 days of arrival in Thailand.

 I am aware that this rule is not generally enforced by the immigration officials, particularly at 'land' borders, but Dr. PP as a senior contributor to thaivisa.com has to state the rule as it is made, not as it is enforced.  It is a fact that the airlines serving Bangkok from the UK will not board a passenger with a one-way ticket unless they have a visa and I assume that other countries do the same.

 This is Thailand and just because the authorities have chosen not to enforce the rule on 30 day entries up to now does not mean that this will continue, particularly with the recent visa agent scams, they could start to enforce the rule tomorrow (Today?), they do not need any further legislation, merely to enforce what they already have.

  The fact is it is very easy to get multiple entry TR visas and multiple 'O' non immigrant visas  before you leave for Thailand and if you are going to visit for a long period of time, surely the 70 - 100 GBP that these cost is not beyond anyone.

  There are contributors to this forum who seem to have a 'downer' on '30 dayers', personally I have no problem with it and I suspect DR. pp is the same but he continually points out the rules when this subject is raised and I think he is right to do so. ???

[dr_Pat_Pong]

'Thank you Dr. Pat Pong for the inside information'.

Albeit said inside information is met with derision. My sources are good, too good to be shared online with unknowns C M T Presumably you haven't read the postings from people going    in and out of Burma for instance, having every page of their passport photocopied and told to get a real visa before they will be permitted to cross again. I felt it my place to warn of changes in the pipeline. I'll hold my tongue. Why not go and have a free and frank discussion with the Colonel at C M Immigration. He will likely put you right. Don't shoot the messenger C M T

[Indo-Siam]

About two weeks ago, in another thread, that has by now moved back to page 5 or 6 of this forum section, I committed to putting up a thread on November 1st entitled "30 Day VOA - the Aftermath", to look back on all the September speculation after APEC.

This was after I was accused of scare-mongering, in stating my belief that the continuation of 30 day VOA (or variations in its application) was likely to be closely related to Thai levels of national security, as centrally-managed with respect to border crossing procedures.

I am still of the opinion that if any significant disruptions of APEC activities appear to threaten, Thailand will ratchet up border restrictions as part of  national security response - completely disassociated with any "campaign to persecute farang turnaround specialists".  And the 30 day VOA is likely to be the first thing affected.

But - if all goes smoothly and uneventfully, I think it unlikely that Thailand will change general policy near-term.

With that said, IN A WIDELY PUBLICIZED MOVE, Thai Immigration authorities announced last week that they were already selectively denying visas to a broad range of political activists in advance of APEC - and I have yet to hear even one peep of indignation about this "campaign" by anyone on this board.  Which just proves to me that all the "public servants" on this board who supposedly care only about the even-handedness of Thai authorities - all they really care about is their own mangy as**s.  If even one - just one of the whiners had stuck up for the falunggong, or free burma activists, or any of the other banned populations, I might have had some respect for their true altruism.  But the silence was deafening.  So - no more "white knights on pedestals" please -  I can take a self-centered lay-about trying to protect his own hindquarters.  I can't take phony defenders of "the one true faith".  

My personal thoughts are not for or against falunggong-ites, or free Burma types, or even guys killing a few years goofing off in Bangkok.  I just think its <deleted> presumptuous of any group of foreigners to think that their opinions should define Thai policies on management of its borders, or Immigration policy.  And I think it is the height of absurdity to say that the economic impact upon Thai tourism of "marginal types" being thrown out, or barred from entry would even amount to background noise - given that the number of fully legitimate tourists that visit Thailand each year is almost 11 million foreigners.  By the time you divide 500, or 2,000, or even 10,000 into 11 million, you quickly get a vapor trail of zeroes that minimizes the impact of "the marginals" into insignificance.    

If Thailand can deny entry to activists - no matter what their visa - on national security grounds, then I am sure they can change VOA rules without blinking.  But - I don't necessarily think that changes will happen.  It looks to me as if Thailand is doing a pretty good job of being surgically selective in its application of its sovereign right to deny entry into its country to undesirable people.  And - I support the Thai government's right to make up its own policies about who is undesirable.

Steve

Indo-Siam

[Axel]

...way of the 30 day stamps are actually abusing the system....

If feel this posting is a bit childish. Who should apologize and for what?

Here was the crying, "we are legal...the officer at the border said so..." a.s.o. These guys are not really in authority and will tell you tomorrow "I got new orders" if and when such come forward.

I said it before, "you are not illegal" at this moment but still it's an abuse of the sytem which grants "tourists" a visa-exemption of up to 30 days. I read in these postings about signs that only two entries are now allowed, on some border points, than to get a visa.

Abuse in my view means you are using an existing rule or actually a loophole in the rule to circumvent the advantage granted to tourists. I said as well similar holes have been closed in other countries around Asia. This means e.g. that Thais and Filipnas (especially ladies) cannot enter Hong Kong or Singapore consecutivly on similar visa-exemptions. There are not so many ladies entering Thailand on similar basis, but transpose the idea to "tourists" staying for months and years.

I believe the loophole will be closed and only hope  it will be done deligently, means only stop the back-to-back users and leave the genuine tourist in peace. Otherwise millions of real tourists would have to suffer because of the the few who abused the system.

A last question: Just theoretically, do you think you could enforce your legal right in a Thai court of justice? They would tell you the same as the Dr., myself and others said, it's an abuse and no legal right.

[kwiz117]

I am not sure the legality of Border Crossing.

All I know is Foreigners do this every 3 Months and stay long time in Thailand and some even engaged in work and do business. I think Thai Authorities should restrict this to some limited number of visits.

So they can keep only the Falang that falls into the stipulated criteria in Thailand.

Right now, it is like a “Tom Yam” soup. Too much mixed up and the flavor is not right.

But then,

How many Visa Agents will loose business? How many Bar Girls will Loose Business ?

I do not know..

Other than that, nothing will happen to Thailand.

[Axel]

The topic refers to passport holders from 39 countries who do not require a visa when entering Thailand for tourism purposes if their stay in the Kingdom does not exceed 30 days.

Seems some people think, to stay here for 30 days, leave for 10 minutes and get another 30 days visa exemption is the right thing to do for months if not for years.

[ChiangMaiThai]

I don't mean to attack the messenger. I don't mean to be childish. I don't mean to defend the legaility of those staying here long term on 30 day visas. I mean only to point out that some members have gone beyond saying that staying in Thailand long term on 30 day stamps is basically abusing the system and have implied that there will be impending trouble for those who stay in Thailand via this means. Of course confusion arises first of all when this is not elaborated on and second of all when immigration officers assure farang after farang that they may cross over and back at will.

I thank Dr. PP today for at least clarifying that this information does come from reasonable sources and I can understnd why he wouldn't post those sources on the internet. Although, it would also be nice to know whether the 30 day stayers will have any problems or if one day they will just be told to go home and get a real visa.

At the end of the day though, as I said, I will be interested to watch and wait and see if anything at all changes and the 30 day stayers find themselves in trouble or if things will continue as normal. If a year down the road, nothing has changed and the 30 day stayers are still doing their thing, then I think the credibility of anyone who warned that these same people would soon be 'endangered species', must be questioned.

[Indo-Siam]

It may be useful to take a look at the official line, tracking history of the issue :  (interesting how this same subject comes up every September!):

8 Sep 2002 - Bangkok Post: "Picking out the bad apples"

In the aftermath of the daring bank robbery by Russian nationals in Pattaya which left one policeman dead there have been calls by various officials to tighten up Thailand's visa-on-arrival policy, which is extended to many countries for either 15 or 30 days. Gen Pallop Pinmanee, Deputy Director of Internal Security Operations Command, said that authorities would have to take a closer look at the backgrounds of tourists and that Thailand's attempt to lure tourists by issuing them visas on arrival had opened the door to foreign criminals.

28 Sep 2001 - Bangkok Post  "Immigration checks and visa rules to be tightened"

Thailand will step up immigration checks and review visa privileges in a bid to keep out terrorists, Foreign Minister Surakiart Sathirathai said yesterday.

30 Sptember 2000  - Bangkok Post   "Visa-free entry may be curbed "

Police want visa-free entry privileges for citizens of several countries revoked, to help the fight against transnational crime

I would include the links, but the new Bangkok Post archives display process is not condusive to providing links.

Cheers!

Indo-Siam

[Axel]

It may be useful to take a look at the official line, tracking history of the issue :  (interesting how this same subject comes up every September!):

And cheers to. That was an interesting research.

More the Thailand we know. (Wait post-APEC)

[dr_Pat_Pong]

The topic refers to passport holders from 39 countries who do not require a visa when entering Thailand for tourism purposes if their stay in the Kingdom does not exceed 30 days.

Seems some people think, to stay here for 30 days, leave for 10 minutes and get another 30 days visa exemption is the right thing to do for months if not for years.

Exactly Axel. " for tourism purposes " Not that long ago it was only 15 days. That must have been punishing for walkers.

[ChiangMaiThai]

Interesting info Indo-Siam. Looks like they've been about to put an end to the 30 day walkers for about 3 years now. Anyway, like I said, let's wait and see if anything does happen this time.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Besides security issues,  the powers that be, see the walker's prime objective is to defy financial and reporting requirements.

It seems to me, that the compliant, do as is required by our hosts, whereas the walker's thumb their noses at authority

[dropout]

Indo-Siam,

Pretty underwhelming evidence of any recent initiative to change the VOA program.  By the way, why do you continue to characterize anybody that uses or defends the multiple 30 day VOA program as "marginal types" or undesirables?  Did you not state previously that at some time in the past you yourself utilized this privilege and do not have anything against people who use it today? Now you are attacking people that defend the continuation of this policy because you question the fact that their motives are not aligned with political activists and NGOs. Have you completely lost the plot?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Besides security issues,  the powers that be, see the walker's prime objective is to defy financial and reporting requirements.

It seems to me, that the compliant, do as is required by our hosts, whereas the walker's thumb their noses at authority

This still says it all

[parryhandy]

Indo-Siam,

Pretty underwhelming evidence of any recent initiative to change the VOA program.  By the way, why do you continue to characterize anybody that uses or defends the multiple 30 day VOA program as "marginal types" or undesirables?  Did you not state previously that at some time in the past you yourself utilized this privilege and do not have anything against people who use it today? Now you are attacking people that defend the continuation of this policy because you question the fact that their motives are not aligned with political activists and NGOs. Have you completely lost the plot?

quite agree.As for the remark about not crying foul  about the rights of these political activists and NGOS what do you expect with the attitude you get on here ? Of course we are going to think of ourselves first when some of us have families and children to consider, wouldnt you.I could think of many things i consider about the behaviour of the Thai government with regards to freedoms and human rights which i find obscene but i am not going to constantly post  on here about it because i know what the answer will be ."Its not your country they can do what they like blah blah blah...." brown nose brown nose. Even if the people saying it know #### well some of the behaviour is immoral.

[ChiangMaiThai]

Besides security issues,  the powers that be, see the walker's prime objective is to defy financial and reporting requirements.

It seems to me, that the compliant, do as is required by our hosts, whereas the walker's thumb their noses at authority

So, why don't  the authorities do the obvious thing and tell the non-complients that they may not stay in Thailand long term on 30 day stamps? I've posed this question numerous times, but its never been answered.

Also, for what it is worth, someone staying here for months at a time could very well be a tourist. I know many people who's lives are back in the US ie. house, family, car, etc. but are lucky enough to spend long periods of time in Thailand, sometimes over a year, as a tourist. If this is illegal, then the authorities need only to warn all tourists that they may only stay for x number of days a year. Again, they don't do this either.

[Maigo6]

Besides security issues,  the powers that be, see the walker's prime objective is to defy financial and reporting requirements.

It seems to me, that the compliant, do as is required by our hosts, whereas the walker's thumb their noses at authority

So, why don't  the authorities do the obvious thing and tell the non-complients that they may not stay in Thailand long term on 30 day stamps? I've posed this question numerous times, but its never been answered.

Also, for what it is worth, someone staying here for months at a time could very well be a tourist. I know many people who's lives are back in the US ie. house, family, car, etc. but are lucky enough to spend long periods of time in Thailand, sometimes over a year, as a tourist. If this is illegal, then the authorities need only to warn all tourists that they may only stay for x number of days a year. Again, they don't do this either.

CMT, i am below 50, am not married to a Thai, and am in the process of trying to get a real Visa, there are advantages in having a proper visa, how much hassle it will be to get that visa i dont know, i will let you know how i get on.

If you are from the states, i think you can get Visa's easily in USA,you cant even get a driving license that is legal in Thailand without a Non Immigrant Visa, got to be worth having one i think.

[Georgie-Porgie]

"Besides security issues,  the powers that be, see the walker's prime objective is to defy financial and reporting requirements".

I don't see how 30 day walkers are "defying reporting requirements". They are actually reporting their address in Thailand MORE often than someone with a paid visa.

And the truth is that they probably contribute more to Thailand's economy than the people who go over the border every 3 months. Buses cost money. Hotels cost money.

If Thailand wants to make this behavior illegal, then they should do so, but at the moment, there is nothing against the law or in any way immoral about it.

[ChiangMaiThai]

If Thailand wants to make this behavior illegal, then they should do so, but at the moment, there is nothing against the law or in any way immoral about it.

I agree with this comment. Some on this board look down on the 30 day long timers and others elude to an impending crackdown. What I find humorous is that the Thai immigration officers, by all accounts, have no problem with farangs staying long term on 30 day stamps (based on discussions with immigration officials at various posts and the experiences of fellow farangs, not to mention the passports of a number of friends who have a few dozen 30 day stamps). As I said in an earlier post, if they do have a problem, all they have to do is make it clear that this behaviour will not be tolerated and that will be the end of it.

So we've got long time expats telling us that anyone who stays long term on 30 day visa free stays are abusing the system, thumbing their noses at authority and their days are numbered. Then we've got the Thai immigration officials telling us, 'hey, no problem'. Does anyone else find this the least bit amusing?

And to all those who say that staying long term on 30 day stamps is an abuse of the system and in defiance of the law, I again pose the simple question. That is, okay we are well aware of your opinion, but why don't Thai immigration officials themselves step up and make it known that this widespread practice will not be permitted? The logical conclusion is that they have decided to tolerate it and do not view the 30 day stayers at 'non-compliants' or 'endangered species'.

Now certain people say this is soon to change and I say, okay, let's wait and see. I will of course be a bit confused if a year from now things are continuing as normal and in such an event I would hope for an explanation from those members on the board who have insisted that the days of the consecutive 30 day stamps are numbered.

[ChiangMaiThai]

CMT, i am below 50, am not married to a Thai, and am in the process of trying to get a real Visa, there are advantages in having a proper visa, how much hassle it will be to get that visa i dont know, i will let you know how i get on.

If you are from the states, i think you can get Visa's easily in USA,you cant even get a driving license that is legal in Thailand without a Non Immigrant Visa, got to be worth having one i think.

I agree wholeheartedly that if you are going to stay long term here in Thailand, you are better off with a real visa. However, i also believe that there is nothing wrong with staying here long term on 30 day stamps. If Thai law states that this practice is abuse of the system, that it is immoral or even illegal, then why don't the Thai immigration officers prevent someone who has say, 50 stamps in a row, from coming back in? It seems clear that they more than tolerate the practice.

[Khun ?]

CMT

I think most of us would agree with you. The only thing some of us are saying is, the times are changing. Due to the amount of people that now use these tourist type visas to stay long term same as being a resident are alarming. I read somewhere

that they caught something like 35 or 50 people from India

and other countries with these fake visas trying to enter on the 30 day visa run. The fact that people can live for years

on these visas is alarming specially when you do not even need to enter or exit the country on your own. Why have foreign resident laws if most go around the requirements for a bit of time and a few baht.

The laws that are now being upgraded that have not been done since the early 80's is very resonable for someone trying to make a foreign country residence. Why does european countries require less to get a work permit than Japan or North America? It could be because that is what the embassies supplied to the locals for info regarding the subject.

[Thetyim]

The law is in place but is not enforced.

This leaves the immigration officier free to apply the law or ignore it for 30 day stayers.

MAYBE, and this is just a guess, the law IS being applied for some nationalities and/or age groups that are considered undesirable whilst leaving desirable falangs untouched.

This would explain both DrPP theory and CMT practice.

[ChiangMaiThai]

CMT

I think most of us would agree with you. The only thing some of us are saying is, the times are changing. Due to the amount of people that now use these tourist type visas to stay long term same as being a resident are alarming. I read somewhere

that they caught something like 35 or 50 people from India

and other countries with these fake visas trying to enter on the 30 day visa run. The fact that people can live for years

on these visas is alarming specially when you do not even need to enter or exit the country on your own. Why have foreign resident laws if most go around the requirements for a bit of time and a few baht.

The laws that are now being upgraded that have not been done since the early 80's is very resonable for someone trying to make a foreign country residence. Why does european countries require less to get a work permit than Japan or North America? It could be because that is what the embassies supplied to the locals for info regarding the subject.

Hi Khun,

I agree with you that Iit seems the times are changing, but I am extremely curious to see if this is just a result of hype generated by this website and others or if things are genuinely set to change.

I would also like to know if there will be some penalty for people who have used the 30 day stamps to become de-facto residents or if they will just be told that its time to get a visa. But those who have declared that the times are changing have not been forthcoming with that information.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

When the time is up CMT the walker will be denied entry into Thailand on that 30 day basis. You simply don't listen do you ? I told you that walkers into Burma have had their passports copied, made to sign each page and told to get a " proper " visa. The photocopies of passport pages were sent ti Suan Plu. It isn't what you want to hear, so you ignore it. It won't go away. I invited you to go talk to the Colonel at CM Immigration, but no, he too might tell you what you don't want to know

[Digger]

Somebody mentioned in this thread that the 30 day visa's continue to used and the immigration officers say its OK. Others are warning that the good days are coming to an end, possibly with APEC and other world events around us.    Quite frankly, I am amazed at the relaxed attitude of the 30 day visa runners.    Surely its not beyond the wit of man, to tell you that the long term probability of no change to current practice is slim to say the least.    Of course the immigration officers at the checkpoints will tell you its OK today - because it is.  However they do not make the rules, just enforce them.   People using 30 day visa's back to back have no voice in the Thai government and as such if anyone wants to they will just change the rules.   To think the government considers these people "usefull" is naive beyond belief.

Taksins whole approach is to get more people into the tax paying community and this is an easy target.   OK many people may not be earning money here illegally and are just taking extended holidays, however I would guess that these folk will just be caught up with the bigger fish who the Government is trying to clamp down on.  Dont forget, in Thailand, things are done indirectly - the warning signs are there - ignore them at your peril is what I would suggest.

[Georgie-Porgie]

A Christian missionary that I know  has lived in Thailand for 3 years. For most of that time he has used the most famous visa agent up North (the one that got raided a few weeks ago) to stamp his passport in and out every 3 months. In the last year, having no money, he has started doing it himself every 30 days.

Yesterday he went on a visa run to a Northern border and had NO problems and was invited,  "to keep coming every 30 days as long as you like". He does have a cute little Luk Krung, but that has been most foreigners experience at the borders up North since this whole thing started, including 30 day walkers.

EVERYONE has had to get their passports copied at the border recently , not just 30 day walkers, and very, very few of them have been told to stop their 30 day excursions.

[Maigo6]

A Christian missionary that I know  has lived in Thailand for 3 years. For most of that time he has used the most famous visa agent up North (the one that got raided a few weeks ago) to stamp his passport in and out every 3 months. In the last year, having no money, he has started doing it himself every 30 days.

Yesterday he went on a visa run to a Northern border and had NO problems and was invited,  "to keep coming every 30 days as long as you like". He does have a cute little Luk Krung, but that has been most foreigners experience at the borders up North since this whole thing started, including 30 day walkers.

EVERYONE has had to get their passports copied at the border recently , not just 30 day walkers, and very, very few of them have been told to stop their 30 day excursions.

It will change in the future, of that i have no doubt. And yes he can go back and forth as long as the law does not change, that is different to as long as he likes. He dont make the laws.

I went to Nepal once, and when you enter that country you have to state how many times you have been there during that year, if over a certain ammount of time, you cannot enter. Nepal is poor, and i mean poor, if anyone needs forgien exchange it's them, Thailand is rich compared to Nepal, i personally think Thailand will alter the rules eventually, sooner rather than later.

Maybe now is a good time to secure a Visa, if you qualify that is. I imagine that most 30 dayers would rather have a Non Imm, but for some reason fail to meet the criteria, (under 50, no marriage e.t.c.), i can see why 30 dayers get 30 days, i was doing it for years, but i don't think i will be doing it for years to come. Just a thought.

I am sure that people would rather have a visa, than to not have a visa. Just that some people just fail to meet the regs, so they use existing regs to get 30 days at a time, i am sure they dont want to do that every 30 - 40 days. They see no alternatives maybe.  

cheers

[Sick Boy]

When the time is up CMT the walker will be denied entry into Thailand on that 30 day basis. You simply don't listen do you ?

The voice of doom speaks again.

The ultimate authority on all matters mortal.

SHUT IT!, DR SCAREMONGER.

This statement is completely unfounded and, is thus, worthless.

Remarks like these really get my goat!

Consider my goat got(ten).

Later.

TRUST ME YOU WILL BE CIVIL IF YOU STAY

[Indo-Siam]

Avatar well chosen - I suspect "Hammer Time" is quickly approaching for your one and only posting under this "mouth off" identity.

'How about those new sidewalks on the Landmark side of Sukhumvit?

Cheers!

Indo-Siam