Complaining, Complaining, Complaining!

[donshows]

First of all even though I am white I grew up here and have very few "western" morals and I know that Thais respect their elders. What I object to is the attitude of westerners that come here and treat Thai youth as their personal smorgasbord just because they have the money to do so. If at 60 you find love with a 20 year old, good luck to you, but believe me, such cases are very rare. Time and again I meet older farangs that end up penny less and heart broken and have to be repatriated by their embassies. My b/f is 12 years younger then me, but our relationship has never been based on monetary values, but on mutual respect.

Very good post, particularly as a spring board for further discussion.

I am an older white westerner living here (retirement visa)...who has no desire to meet young guys. I have been in a committed relationship with a Thai for over 15 years now...first long distance, now living together. I guess we are rather boring...just lead a normal life. I could describe our relationship just as you describe yours!

I am rather appalled by those white westerners who "use" Thai guys (whether young or not) as their own smorgasbord (as you put it...and that is a good way to put it). On the other hand, I'm just as appalled by those Thai guys who "use" Westerners in a relationship for money or so they can live more comfortably...however you want to phrase it. It's a rather symbiotic relationship, either way.

First I have been here longer then most of you, since I was 3 years old, so maybe my English is not perfect enough for making my self understood perfectly even though I live part of the year in Australia. All I ever objected to is the way guys with big wallets use young Thai kids for their sexual gratification. I also realize that Thais are using farangs as meal tickets, but the extra Baths are hard to resist. I don't give a hoot if you are 120 and your friend is 20 as long as it is a genuine relationship, exploitation is what I object to. As for repatriation of penniless farangs, it happens far more then you think, mostly with straight guys who marry their big holiday love and it also happens with some gay guys. I know this because until recently I worked at an embassy of a European country. Sorry if I caused controversy, this is my last comment on the subject and you can all stop bitching.

OH MY GOD....I just wanted to give an opinion about complainers...and sure got more than I expected!! Please don't make more of this than people should repsect Thailand and embrace it for what it is...a wonderful place to live and work. The people are wonderful but sometimes we...farangs...just don't see the forest because of the trees!

[Ijustwannateach]

I'm not one to say that relationships between persons of whatever age cannot be real, but I do think a greater age difference makes them harder. Of course, if only sex and companionship are the goals, the age difference is not such a big deal.

Hmm...I could challenge that by asking why you think experience and age would make it more difficult to have a younger partner? One might think the opposite to be true.

Are you possibly talking about love? That too, comes in all possible forms and variations.

I'm not saying there are not younger partners out there looking for older men, just to be clear, and I know that strong love is possible in such cases. I'm saying that as an older man, very often I don't think they offer as much as someone closer to my age, in terms of emotional support, mutual understanding, mature perspective, financial equity, and even sexual interest. However, other people may experience things differently, so I'm not suggesting my way of looking at it is the only one.

I do agree that complaining sometimes works as strenghtening friendships or even as subject matters in casual encounters. Maybe it is a way to get to know someone. You tell me what kind of complaints you have and I will tell you what kind of a person you are...

I've often had a moment of bonding with a nearby foreign stranger when we both noticed the same problem at the same time- and then one of us would shake his head and comment to the other. That kind of complaining is not so off-putting. I think when you know someone who is obsessed with complaints, though, it makes you want to stay away from them.

[Jingthing]

pauleddy:

Yesterday, a taxi-driver asked me "you love Thailand so much, yes?"...a statement, not really a question. He actually believed that I lived in virtual paradise for farangs and that I should be humbled/grateful/generous with a tip/fulsome in my praise. I was tempted to say "I don't really like it as much as you would like to believe", but my limited Thai let me down (typical farang).

That was a brilliant observation. I feel the same way. The other day I just answered "ha sip/ha sip" to a similar question and the Thai questioner seemed OK with that. We would have to be very daft to live here for any length of time and not notice the big warts here.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Jingthing

[twschw]

I am always amazed by people who complain about complainers. What makes your complaint any different?

I often wonder what is the age separation between partners that people find distasteful. 60 and 20. 70 and 30, 50 and 28. What is the big deal if both partners are getting something out of the relationship be it money, sex or love. People are searching for different things and who am I to say what they find is good, bad, moral or immoral.

To Mr. Arco, you said " All I ever objected to is the way guys with big wallets use young Thai kids for their sexual gratification". It might be helpful if you were to clarify what a "young Thai kid" is. My reading of this sentence is you are talking about minors and that of course is illegal.

Have a good weekend guys.

[onni4me]

I'm not saying there are not younger partners out there looking for older men, just to be clear, and I know that strong love is possible in such cases. I'm saying that as an older man, very often I don't think they offer as much as someone closer to my age, in terms of emotional support, mutual understanding, mature perspective, financial equity, and even sexual interest.

Okay, got you. I was in the belief when I was younger that I was attracted to young guys and could not think that old geezers could be actually having sex.

Anyway, when one gets older it might be that one wants more from the partner. Those things you mentioned above. I have lovely husband that gives me everything and could not think what kind of person it could be to attract me away from him. The age and looks is not that much of an issue to me since I am perfectly happy what I have now.

I think the mental side becomes more and more important when time passes. Although, some seem to be completely happy with someone that hardly speaks any understandable words.

I have an experience from gay friends when I finished with my former bf. When we were together they didn't say anything but when we broke up they came with all kinds of complaints and faults that they considered painted a picture of my ex-bf. That was kind of hurtful since I sincerely would appreciate more direct approach when something is going on - not later.

[phetaroi]

We are supposed to love this place and not criticise it.

First, possibly one of the most negative posts I have ever read. I ask, why do you choose to be here?

I particularly disagree with the statement above. It isn't that many criticize things, it's that there rarely seems to be a balance. I dislike blah, blah, blah, but on the other hand I like blah, blah, blah.

[Ijustwannateach]

I'm not saying there are not younger partners out there looking for older men, just to be clear, and I know that strong love is possible in such cases. I'm saying that as an older man, very often I don't think they offer as much as someone closer to my age, in terms of emotional support, mutual understanding, mature perspective, financial equity, and even sexual interest.

Okay, got you. I was in the belief when I was younger that I was attracted to young guys and could not think that old geezers could be actually having sex.

Anyway, when one gets older it might be that one wants more from the partner. Those things you mentioned above. I have lovely husband that gives me everything and could not think what kind of person it could be to attract me away from him. The age and looks is not that much of an issue to me since I am perfectly happy what I have now.

I think the mental side becomes more and more important when time passes. Although, some seem to be completely happy with someone that hardly speaks any understandable words.

I have an experience from gay friends when I finished with my former bf. When we were together they didn't say anything but when we broke up they came with all kinds of complaints and faults that they considered painted a picture of my ex-bf. That was kind of hurtful since I sincerely would appreciate more direct approach when something is going on - not later.

Sounds like you're lucky with your guy!

I dunno about your friends. It depends a lot on what they think of your ability to see things the way they do- unless they're REALLY good friends, they're unlikely to say things that will be likely to put stress on the friendship like that, especially if you've ever behaved defensively about criticism of your ex-bf. Too many people have been friends of that guy (not saying this is you) who wouldn't hear anything wrong about the BF and then when things fell apart he was asking everyone why they didn't say anything.....

[PeaceBlondie]

We are supposed to love this place and not criticise it.

First, possibly one of the most negative posts I have ever read. I ask, why do you choose to be here?

I particularly disagree with the statement above. It isn't that many criticize things, it's that there rarely seems to be a balance. I dislike blah, blah, blah, but on the other hand I like blah, blah, blah.

I hate to complain about complainers who complain about counter complainers, so here are just a few positives for balance.

As partners, many Thai men are excellent. Thai culture is far more tolerant of gay sex. The weather and food and sex are hotter. Cost of living and sex, cheaper.

[Sombart]

If at 60 you find love with a 20 year old, good luck to you, but believe me, such cases are very rare. Time and again I meet older farangs that end up penny less and heart broken and have to be repatriated by their embassies. My b/f is 12 years younger then me, but our relationship has never been based on monetary values, but on mutual respect.

Your definition of “love” and the basis for a relationship between two people apparently derives from the hetero-norm established by the likes of Snow White or Cinderella … keeping in mind that the former was shacking up with 7 midgets and the latter was tracked down by a guy with a foot fetish.

In the US where lust is considered the appropriate cement for two people planning a life together, the divorce rate amongst the breeders is outpacing the marriage rate, and it’s probably as bad or worse amongst gay partners.

In much of the world, including Asia, marriage has traditionally been a more practical arrangement, a negotiated conjoining of two families to the benefit of both.

In places like Pattaya, many young women or young men come hoping to snag a farang, just as many farang come looking to be snagged. If the former are motivated by nothing more than money and/or the latter only are looking for sex 24/7, the success rate is not likely to very high, but some of them find something beyond the financial security and in addition to the sex.

Every relationship, whether it’s Jacqueline Kennedy & Onassis or two unemployed college students, is going to have a financial component. It’s only been fairly recently that hetero marriages in places like the US weren’t based on the idea that the man was expected to support the woman “ in a manner to which she was accustomed.”

My friend and I were drawn to one another because of the sexual/financial lure, but we both understood that from the start. Those aspects remain, but they don’t define our relationship nor are they the basis for the enjoyment we find being together. The sex & financial security were the catalyst that brought us together, but they would not be sufficient to keep us together. If he were continually asking for money or I was constantly groping him, I’m sure we would have parted company a long time ago.

[Sombart]

We would have to be very daft to live here for any length of time and not notice the big warts here.

Noticing them and endlessly bitching about them are two different things.

I think people who came here with their eyes wide open and who understood that Thailand is no more a paradise than anywhere else on earth are able to accept the small inconveniences without throwing a fit, especially when the conveniences seem to make it all worthwhile.

Whether it's Thailand or politics in the US or what's on TV or our partner's idiosyncracies ... there are bound to be legitimate reasons to complain as well as to praise ... but forever complaining is rarely constructive and it's almost always tedious for those who have to "listen" to it.

[Sombart]

The worse thing is the smug self-delusion which is the result of many things, and is perpetuated by the Thais themselves. Yesterday, a taxi-driver asked me "you love Thailand so much, yes?"...a statement, not really a question. He actually believed that I lived in virtual paradise for farangs and that I should be humbled/grateful/generous with a tip/fulsome in my praise. I was tempted to say "I don't really like it as much as you would like to believe", but my limited Thai let me down (typical farang). eddy

Your Thai was inadequate to respond to someone, but you assume his English (or your translation of his Thai) is sufficient to take words like "love so much" as if it were said by a native English speaker??

Of course Thais are pleased that people like to come to Thailand and many decide to stay here permanently. To change a simple taxi-driver-making-conversation into a smug assurance that Thailand is flawless or that it implies you should be "humbled/grateful/generous with a tip/fulsome in my praise,&ampis just typical farang ego-centrism & smugness. Not everyone is as coniving or duplitious as you seem to think. Basically what you want is for every Thai to treat you like a gift from heaven and to grovel in your presence. Don't hold your breath on either count.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Sombart

[noctiluca]

Thailand is not paradise. Actually, there is quite a lot wrong with it, in terms of inefficiency, bureaucracy, the exploitation of Thai and Farang by Thai, the dreadful unstable politics, the shallowness of a presentation culture where Armani is sometimes more important than decency, the terrible education system, the corruption (just read that millions have been stolen from the "rural help fund" for the poor, by officials), and I haven't even started on the royalty stuff and the monk stuff, the board doesn't allow that. I have heard Thailand called the "demented Disneyland", which made me chuckle because there is a ring of truth there.

The worse thing is the smug self-delusion which is the result of many things, and is perpetuated by the Thais themselves. Yesterday, a taxi-driver asked me "you love Thailand so much, yes?"...a statement, not really a question. He actually believed that I lived in virtual paradise for farangs and that I should be humbled/grateful/generous with a tip/fulsome in my praise. I was tempted to say "I don't really like it as much as you would like to believe", but my limited Thai let me down (typical farang).

Somewhere down the line, this huge reality gap opened up and grew. We are supposed to love this place and not criticise it. This conforms with Thai expectations and self-delusion. If we and they can just drink enough cheap beer or rum from 7-11, we can all just carry on perpetuating the inward-looking status quo while the country doesn't strive to improve its lot, feed its poor and educate its kids well.

eddy

Thanks, eddy, for your candid post. I love your comments, especially the self-delusion part. At least, it makes me think and post my comment here after a long absence.

I'm Thai by the way, although I have also been exposed to western cultures somewhat, I mean as working and living.

Anyway, I also have to agree with Sombart in defense of the taxi driver. Perhaps it's not the like of him who is self-deluded. It could be merely his lack of good English communication. Granted, many of us are often brainwashed by the media (the likes of Tourism Authority and the Ministry of Culture) that we are the greatest in the world. Patriotism may have something to do with that, but it is exploited all over the world, is it not? I admit I would be delighted too, to hear that a foreigner like Thailand so much, he/she is willing to spend a lot of time in the country or even consider relocating. I personally believe that we Thais love the idea that we make a guest feel welcome and being treated comfortably. Now, I'm not blind to the fact that some Thais think we, the country or the people, are superior to anyone or anywhere else, which is an absolute BS!

Thailand is not certainly the best or most perfect country in the world, that is obvious to me, even in terms of gay life and issues. In general, it is no better than many countries, but definitely not the worst. And I would say it is NOT for everybody. You've got to *WANT* to be here. It has the good and the bad, although lately the perception seems to lean towards the latter, especially when it comes to corrupted politics and incompetent bureaucracy. Just imagine. If you guys complain so much about Thailand, what about us ordinary locals, specifically the have-not, non-hiso, and not-well-connect-to-influential-figure Thais? How much more we suffer since we cannot just pack and leave and go back home as you guys. We are stuck here, like it or not. And I can go on and on and on, but you would get tired of me bi@#$ing.

Of course, we all are entitled to our complaining. It's natural and human. It is how we make friends and relate to one another. I even have tons of pet peeves of my own (and don't get me start on that!). But I guess in the end, just don't let it consume you with all the negativity. That's all.

Although I do not necessarily agree with this entirely, in a way, it is like the saying that to live in Thailand, you have to "Tum Jai". You've got to be able to make peace with it somehow. Either that or you would go insane. Like I do, from time to time.

[paulfromphuket]

So this has turned in to a tread about age difference from a OP about complaning.

can we try to either stay on topic or split the subject whch i am very happy with, I am waiting 4 my 20 year younger bf to come home after a hard days work with the dog food he will have bought from his money and tell me he loves me even though i never give him money.

So what is this thread about, Thailand can be unbelievably frustrating or is it acceptable to seen with a younger partner I am confused!

[Ijustwannateach]

I have days when I get frustrated here because of things that actually have to do with here (and not my own mistakes or problems that could happen anywhere), but I grit my teeth and say to myself, 'well, this is how it is.' Then things get better and I'm usually ok with it. Most days aren't that bad, though.

[phetaroi]

...

I personally believe that we Thais love the idea that we make a guest feel welcome and being treated comfortably. Now, I'm not blind to the fact that some Thais think we, the country or the people, are superior to anyone or anywhere else, which is an absolute BS!

Thailand is not certainly the best or most perfect country in the world, that is obvious to me, even in terms of gay life and issues. In general, it is no better than many countries, but definitely not the worst. And I would say it is NOT for everybody. You've got to *WANT* to be here. It has the good and the bad...we cannot just pack and leave and go back home as you guys. We are stuck here, like it or not. ...

Of course, we all are entitled to our complaining. It's natural and human. It is how we make friends and relate to one another. I even have tons of pet peeves of my own (and don't get me start on that!). But I guess in the end, just don't let it consume you with all the negativity. That's all.

Although I do not necessarily agree with this entirely, in a way, it is like the saying that to live in Thailand, you have to "Tum Jai". You've got to be able to make peace with it somehow. Either that or you would go insane. Like I do, from time to time.

I really enjoyed your post.

I don't find Thais thinking they are superior, but I do find Thais tend to love Thailand. That's true for the citizens of many countries, and it is a good thing to take pride in one's country...even when in some ways it's not so perfect.

No, probably not the "best or most perfect country" in the world, as you put it. But pretty dam_n good in many ways. Compare it to most countries in Africa or the Middle East or even parts of Asia -- look what's happening in certain provinces in China or North Korea.

You're right. It's not for everyone. You hit it right on the head when you said that you've got to WANT to live here. And that's what's made the difference for me. When I go out on my long photography walks (both for the exercise and my photography hobby) or just walk to Central World, or whatever...I am annoyed by the sidewalks, the motorcyles driving on the sidewalks, the taxi and tuk tuk drivers who think I'm too stupid to know how to hail them if I want their service...well, I could go on...and then I try to remember what I like about Thailand, why I moved to Thailand in retirement, and how imperfect my own country is, as well (America).

In terms of people loving to complain...well, there is a bit of human nature to it. But I've found that those who constantly complain are often not very happy people...and often not people with whom I care to associate. In fact, I believe Buddha talked about the need to associate with the right kind of people...positive people.

[phetaroi]

So this has turned in to a tread about age difference from a OP about complaning.

can we try to either stay on topic or split the subject whch i am very happy with, I am waiting 4 my 20 year younger bf to come home after a hard days work with the dog food he will have bought from his money and tell me he loves me even though i never give him money.

So what is this thread about, Thailand can be unbelievably frustrating or is it acceptable to seen with a younger partner I am confused!

This is a conversation. Conversations flow, and often in different directions than expected. The discussion of age relationships is something that I often hear Thai/Americans complaining about...seems like a logical connection. I am happy for you...our relationship sounds pretty good! Similar here...60 versus 46...and perfect in many ways.

[Ijustwannateach]

I think when it's between two mature adults the age difference really doesn't matter at all- both guys should be pretty well informed what they're looking for, know how things work, etc., etc.

I think it's a little harder to justify for the older party if the younger party is still young enough that he doesn't have a well-developed career, doesn't know what he's doing in life, etc., etc.- it is possible that the older party can help the younger party to figure things out, but it really doesn't make it look like the younger party is bringing a lot to the table- still, if you're going to go that way, leave them better off than when you met, and good on you!

[Sombart]

People are drawn together because they have needs ... friendship, sex, financial assistance, comfort...which they think might be satisfied by the other person. If they both choose to remain together they must feel their needs are being met and maybe they've found even more in the relationship.

I don't think either slavery or human trafficking are a major problem in old-farang/young-Thai gay relationships, so presumably if you see an old farang with a younger Thai over an extended period of time,they both must be content with the relationship however improbable it may seem to you.

If you question whether or not they should be together, you're really debating whether or not some people have the right to decide who may or may not associate with whom.

Generally such discussions lead to someone saying, "If the Thai were rich he wouldn't ..." But if you want to start supposing all sorts of "ifs," you're drifting off into an imaginary world. People have needs that bring them together.

If the relationship is based exclusively on sex & cash, neither party is going to be happy very long and it won't last. But there are old/young, farang/Thai partners who remain together for the long term. If they're enjoying themselves for whatever reason, who is claiming that he has the right to decide that it's wrong.

[Scott123]

I have been living in Thailand for a couple years, and have decided I have had enough of it. I am moving back to my farangland and I am looking forward to it. I won't say my complaints here, but lets just say I perfer being a tourist than a residence in Thailand.

Edited September 6, 2009 by Scott123

[dukkha]

I have been living in Thailand for a couple years, and have decided I have had enough of it. I am moving back to my farangland and I am looking forward to it. I won't say my complaints here, but lets just say I perfer being a tourist than a residence in Thailand.

I dont think I would like to be a 'residence' in any country but happy to be a resident in Thailand.... Dukkha

[Scott123]

I have been living in Thailand for a couple years, and have decided I have had enough of it. I am moving back to my farangland and I am looking forward to it. I won't say my complaints here, but lets just say I perfer being a tourist than a residence in Thailand.

I dont think I would like to be a 'residence' in any country but happy to be a resident in Thailand.... Dukkha

it was a typo...my bad...and yes, your typing is better than mine...wow

[PattayaBunLover]

My only complaint about living in Thailand is the difficulty of finding boys to "top." My goodness, I have never seen so many bottom boys in my life. I know in most gay communities, there are more guys who like to bottom than top but in LOS, the ratio is rediculous...maybe 90% or more. At least there are plenty of friendly ladyboys who are more than happy to fulfill my needs

[dukkha]

I have been living in Thailand for a couple years, and have decided I have had enough of it. I am moving back to my farangland and I am looking forward to it. I won't say my complaints here, but lets just say I perfer being a tourist than a residence in Thailand.

I dont think I would like to be a 'residence' in any country but happy to be a resident in Thailand.... Dukkha

it was a typo...my bad...and yes, your typing is better than mine...wow

Sorry Scott, being an old pedant and teacher could not resist a comment, sometimes I type with my elbows.... Dukkha

[aay2553]

It always amazes me how much farangs complain about how Thailand is not like "home." They don't speak English here! How can they eat that food? Don't they know how to do things the right way? What's wrong with these people?

Complaining, complaining, complaining! OH MY GOD! If Thailand is so bad....then go back HOME!! Wherever that may be and SHUT UP!

There's nothing wrong here except the farangs who complain about Thailand.

listen up girlfriend- I am a farang and I LOOOOOOOOOVE this place, body and soul ( more body than soul!)

when you put us all in the same boat you take away my abilty to defend you

You will not find a more loyal thailand lover than me.

It is true there is alot about Thailand that sucks. ( opps!)

I tell all the moaners- if you do not like it here- LEAVE!

[dukkha]

It always amazes me how much farangs complain about how Thailand is not like "home." They don't speak English here! How can they eat that food? Don't they know how to do things the right way? What's wrong with these people?

Complaining, complaining, complaining! OH MY GOD! If Thailand is so bad....then go back HOME!! Wherever that may be and SHUT UP!

There's nothing wrong here except the farangs who complain about Thailand.

listen up girlfriend- I am a farang and I LOOOOOOOOOVE this place, body and soul ( more body than soul!)

when you put us all in the same boat you take away my abilty to defend you

You will not find a more loyal thailand lover than me.

It is true there is alot about Thailand that sucks. ( opps!)

I tell all the moaners- if you do not like it here- LEAVE!

....listen up girlfriend.......now that is gayspeak if ever I have heard it..........too much yankee TV I reckon....and I cower when I hear gay men refer to their partners as 'husband'....maybe it is generational, I prefer to let heterosexuals speak in terms such as that..as for moi, now there is a little more gayspeak, I too lerve Thighland, after 10 years, am still not bored...and agree, if ya gunna moan about the place then find somewhere else to reside..some people just wont be happy wherever they live....it has nothing to do with the place but within your own pscyche that the problemo lay...and for all you yanks, Have a nice day, whadda a sheit expression that is while I am on about terminology... Dukkha

[aay2553]

It always amazes me how much farangs complain about how Thailand is not like "home." They don't speak English here! How can they eat that food? Don't they know how to do things the right way? What's wrong with these people?

Complaining, complaining, complaining! OH MY GOD! If Thailand is so bad....then go back HOME!! Wherever that may be and SHUT UP!

There's nothing wrong here except the farangs who complain about Thailand.

it's aweful is'nt it

but to be honest, there is , here just like every where else in this beauiful ego invested, male dominated, world where much could be changed, sometimes for the good

now.is'nt that much better than saying

thailand is useless, etc

I think its the way something can be framed, some people just like to complain, put down

one can say everything, help things get better from a postive propspective

you know what I adore, that, almost unique thai smile that one see's from a poor farmer to a business man

all over this lovely land

[announcer]

So...if you don't like complaining...stop complaining.

[Scott]

Your about a year late in responding!

[Ijustwannateach]

Re-opening old closed threads is considered trolling unless there's some really pertinent new information. Further attempts at trolling may lead to warnings for you, announcer. Thread closed.