Visa For Germany

[BelfastMike]

Having some problems obtaining a Passport for my Thai G/F to visit me in Germany.

She has been to the German Embassy in BKK twice now in the last 2 weeks and been declined on both occasions. Naturally she is very upset, as am I.

Circumstances:-

- I'm 32 she's 26. Been together 3 years.

- She used to work in her family's boutique but it closed 9 months ago and since then she has been studying English. Doesn't have much in the way of qualifications, she's been to Laos, Cambodia, Malaysia and Singapore before but never further afield.

- We have rented an apartment in Phuket for the past 2 and a half years. I used to fly back and forth to Thailand every 6 weeks but changed job and only go there for a few 3 week visits yearly now. Been supporting her financially (paying the rent and household bills plus a little spending money) for the past 2 and a half years.

- I'm UK National with Dual Irish/UK Citizenship (N.Irish) working in Germany on a 6 month rolling contract for a multinational. Have a leased apartment here in my name and I've registered my residence at the local town hall.

I obtained a "Verpflichtungserklärung" from the local "Foreigner Office" here in Germany. This is an Official Procedure where they checked my work contract, bank account and lease documents, then produced a certificate saying I am capable of providing for her during her stay. This supposedly negates the need for her to have savings or show financial independence.

She has reserved a flight 19th Sept Out - 18th November Back and purchased travel insurance with 2 Million Baht of cover.

I also wrote a letter explaining our relationship, inviting her to stay with me, promising to cover all expenses whilst she visits Germany as well as guaranteeing her return to Thailand at the end of the stay.

First application rejected. They told her she can't demonstrate adequate reason to return to Thailand. She needs to own land or have a hire-purchase agreement for a car or something that ties her to home.

She visited her folks and they agreed to sign over some of their land to her.

Second application this morning. The Thai staff at the Embassy flicked through her paperwork and told her she still couldn't show adequate reason to return and that she shouldn't even submit the application as it's just a waste of 2900 bht.

Obviously we're both upset. There doesn't seem to be anyway we can get a Visa now.

G/F wants me to go to the Embassy on the 8th September. I'm visiting from the 2nd to the 19th. But I don't think that's going to make a jot of difference as they haven't questioned any of my documentation. The onus is on her to prove she'll return to Thailand before her visa expires.

I don't think there's such a thing as a Fiance Visa for Germany, so that's not an option.

Her folks have suggested going to the Amphur and getting married on paper, no ceremony or parties. But again, will that make any difference. Seems a bit crazy getting married just for a Visa!

Can anyone offer some advice?

[BelfastMike]

Just read another thread concerning the EEA Family Permit.

Perhaps using my Irish Passport I can apply for one of these? As long as I can prove we have been in a Relationship for 2 years. We can then be considered Civil or Unmarried partners?

[MikeRay]

Can´t she apply for a Schengen Visa at the Irish embassy ? With a Schengen Visa she ´ll be allowed to visit and stay with you in Germany .

[BelfastMike]

Ireland and the UK are not part of the Schengen Agreement

[bangla]

Just read another thread concerning the EEA Family Permit.

Perhaps using my Irish Passport I can apply for one of these? As long as I can prove we have been in a Relationship for 2 years. We can then be considered Civil or Unmarried partners?

it is possible to get a familie reunion visa for germany when you're not married but it's very difficult.

it's better if you get married.

you don't have to use your irish passport because as UK citizen you fall under EU law and not the german immigration laws.

the german embassy is extremely stubborn so don't take no for an answer.

go to the auslanderambt in your city and let them help you with the visa.

when your wife is in germany then you can request an aufenthaltskarte (resident permit) for her at the burgerburo.

she should have her 5 year card in a week or 4.

Edited August 25, 2009 by bangla

[ThaiVisaExpress]

You best to get married as i advised in the email IMO.

Do this for the correct reasons obviously if this is what you want ?

[asia_pilot]

Having some problems obtaining a Passport for my Thai G/F to visit me in Germany.

She has been to the German Embassy in BKK twice now in the last 2 weeks and been declined on both occasions. Naturally she is very upset, as am I.

Circumstances:-

- I'm 32 she's 26. Been together 3 years.

- She used to work in her family's boutique but it closed 9 months ago and since then she has been studying English. Doesn't have much in the way of qualifications, she's been to Laos, Cambodia, Malaysia and Singapore before but never further afield.

- We have rented an apartment in Phuket for the past 2 and a half years. I used to fly back and forth to Thailand every 6 weeks but changed job and only go there for a few 3 week visits yearly now. Been supporting her financially (paying the rent and household bills plus a little spending money) for the past 2 and a half years.

- I'm UK National with Dual Irish/UK Citizenship (N.Irish) working in Germany on a 6 month rolling contract for a multinational. Have a leased apartment here in my name and I've registered my residence at the local town hall.

I obtained a "Verpflichtungserklärung" from the local "Foreigner Office" here in Germany. This is an Official Procedure where they checked my work contract, bank account and lease documents, then produced a certificate saying I am capable of providing for her during her stay. This supposedly negates the need for her to have savings or show financial independence.

She has reserved a flight 19th Sept Out - 18th November Back and purchased travel insurance with 2 Million Baht of cover.

I also wrote a letter explaining our relationship, inviting her to stay with me, promising to cover all expenses whilst she visits Germany as well as guaranteeing her return to Thailand at the end of the stay.

First application rejected. They told her she can't demonstrate adequate reason to return to Thailand. She needs to own land or have a hire-purchase agreement for a car or something that ties her to home.

She visited her folks and they agreed to sign over some of their land to her.

Second application this morning. The Thai staff at the Embassy flicked through her paperwork and told her she still couldn't show adequate reason to return and that she shouldn't even submit the application as it's just a waste of 2900 bht.

Obviously we're both upset. There doesn't seem to be anyway we can get a Visa now.

G/F wants me to go to the Embassy on the 8th September. I'm visiting from the 2nd to the 19th. But I don't think that's going to make a jot of difference as they haven't questioned any of my documentation. The onus is on her to prove she'll return to Thailand before her visa expires.

I don't think there's such a thing as a Fiance Visa for Germany, so that's not an option.

Her folks have suggested going to the Amphur and getting married on paper, no ceremony or parties. But again, will that make any difference. Seems a bit crazy getting married just for a Visa!

Can anyone offer some advice?

Germany is though. Almost everything you are listing is against getting the Schengen Visa. You might try it again and use a third party on the 'Verpflichtunserklaerung', this is better then doing it with your name.

Also, the fact that you are currently living in Germany and she has no strong ties to Thailand, is a big 'no no'.

The best would be a fiance Visa to get married in Germany. Since you are not German Citizen she does not need to proof German language skills ( A1 test ). The marriage Visa will be valid for 3 month.

Edited August 25, 2009 by asia_pilot

[BelfastMike]

Germany is though. Almost everything you are listing is against getting the Schengen Visa. You might try it again and use a third party on the 'Verpflichtunserklaerung', this is better then doing it with your name.

Also, the fact that you are currently living in Germany and she has no strong ties to Thailand, is a big 'no no'.

The best would be a fiance Visa to get married in Germany. Since you are not German Citizen she does not need to proof German language skills ( A1 test ). The marriage Visa will be valid for 3 month.

So it is possible to get a German Fiance Visa? There's no info on the Consulate's website about this. Doesn't help of course that I don't speak much German either.

We're both upset that they told us to come back when she owned some land. We complied quickly and now they reject the application without even assessing it properly!

I don't have time to waste messing around with Embassies when I'm on holiday and I hate BKK with a passion anyway!

Worst comes to worst. We can go to the Amphur and tie the knot. But there is paperwork I'll need to get for this and time is limited. Ultimately we were planning to marry anyway once she had come to Germany and learned to cope with the cultural and climate differences. We can always have a proper ceremony etc at a later date.

[asia_pilot]

I cant guarantee you that. However - there is no need for you to go to the embassy, as you will not be allowed in the interview room.

Go to your local Auslaenderamt and ask them what they require from you for a marriage Visa. The embassy does not have the authority on those. The final say comes from your local Auslaenderamt. Just go there, be friendly and ask them what you need and any recomendations.

[Bastian]

There are two options for you:

1) Family Reunion Visa for spouse - This requires you to be married before you apply for the visa. For the application your then wife only needs to show the translated documents proving your marriage and show proof, that you live in a big enough house/flat in Germany, so she can move in. No 'Verpflichtungserklärung', proof of funds, willingness to return or language test is required.

The foreing authority at your place of residence will have to give their OK to the application and it may take anywhere between one and six months to process.

She could stay indefinitely as long as you two live together as a married couple.

2) Marriage Visa - This requires you to make all the preparations to get married in Germany at the local registrar, which is where you should go first in that case, once you get their OK, your partner applies for the visa. A 'Verpflichtungserklärung' will be required, but no language test and she does not need to demonstrate her willingness to return.

The foreing authority at your place of residence will have to give their OK to the application as well and it too may take anywhere between one and six months to process.

The visa will be valid for three or six months, during which you must either marry or she must leave Germany.

Note that this visa, while there is little chance she will be refused, cannot be used more than once or twice. You certainly have the right to change your mind about marriage - several times - but at some point the german embassy will come to the reasonable conclusion that you are merely abusing the marriage visa as a way to circumvent the process in place for visit visas and refuse to issue any more to your friend and become very uncooperative in general.

Just having been living together for no matter how many years is no basis for any kind of visa under the law in Germany.

[abdulrahman]

Sorry if I sound coldhearted.

You are an Irish/UK citizen that want to bring a Thai girl to Germany:right?

Why should the German authorities make it easy for you?

Easier as YOUR authorities do,if I may say so?

Good luck,but don't push it!

[Bastian]

Sorry if I sound coldhearted.

You are an Irish/UK citizen that want to bring a Thai girl to Germany:right?

Why should the German authorities make it easy for you?

Easier as YOUR authorities do,if I may say so?

Good luck,but don't push it!

You do not sound coldhearted, just uninformed.

Indeed the german authorities will make it easier for Mike to be reunited with his spouse than they would make it for one of their own citizens. This is called 'reverse discrimination'; there is a study on this available by Anne Walter titled REVERSE DISCRIMINATION AND FAMILY REUNIFICATION

From the introduction:

So-called reverse discrimination occurs when EU Member States treat their own nationals less favourably than nationals of other Member States in situations where Community law applies. This phenomenon (discrimination of nationals or in German Inländerdiskriminierung) signifies that (in reverse) nationals and not foreigners are discriminated against...

it is available here

[dieter1]

"Having some problems obtaining a Passport" ????

Pardon ! Do you mean "obtaining a visa " ?

Yes, you seem to be quite uninformed , despite you pretend to have a deep relationship over 3 years.

Most people (having a relationship with a Thai girl for such a long time !) know, that it is quite hard,difficult to bring your partner to Europe (US etc.) today. Many, just see the need of marrying just for this reason. In many EU- countries, the woman has to prove language abilities to get the fiancé-visa or visa as a married one.I know many women, who did try these path, without success for years ! Especially older woman have more difficulties in learning a new language !

In fact, to get a "marriage visa" (visa for your girl to go to Germany to marry "Heiratsvisum")) or a visa as your wife ("Ehegattennachzug"), she do not need to have language abilities (do not have to prove this) because you are not a German and live in Germany. (!) As a wife of a German citizen, she would need this.

I know, all this visa stuff is a big shit. Most of us do not like it (to say the least!). And not to get just a visa for visiting you, is not funny.

Please do inform yourself ! I was looking for the special internet- side and it seems, that the sides for

"Ehegattennachzug" (visa for wife) or visa for marrying in Germany ("Heiratsvisum") are not translated to English !

So, if you need help (f.e. cause you can not read German, do not hesitate to ask me for helping you !)

You could also go to a German office to ask for information (may be your local "Ausländeramt"). Try to be polite and ask what you need to get a "Heiratsvisum" or a Visa for "Ehegattennachzug". I would think, your embassy (in Germany) should also help you, but from what I´ve heard from the British embassy in Bangkok, they may not be very helpfull.

"http://www.bangkok.diplo.de/Vertretung/bangkok/de/04/Eheschliessung/Ehegattennachzug__seite.html

Edited August 30, 2009 by dieter1

[Naam]

Just read another thread concerning the EEA Family Permit.

Perhaps using my Irish Passport I can apply for one of these? As long as I can prove we have been in a Relationship for 2 years. We can then be considered Civil or Unmarried partners?

it is possible to get a familie reunion visa for germany when you're not married but it's very difficult.

it's better if you get married.

you don't have to use your irish passport because as UK citizen you fall under EU law and not the german immigration laws. the german embassy is extremely stubborn so don't take no for an answer.

go to the auslanderambt in your city and let them help you with the visa.

when your wife is in germany then you can request an aufenthaltskarte (resident permit) for her at the burgerburo.

she should have her 5 year card in a week or 4.

for the record: neither an Aufenthaltskarte nor a Bürgerbüro exists in Germany . moreover, even if you are married the rules and regulations have changed since a couple of years. the foreign wife of a german citizen will have to prove german language knowledge "Goethe Institut Level One". when i heard that for the first time i thought it is a joke but the German Embassy in BKK confirmed that this is the case. personally i find it outrageous!

[bangla]

for the record: neither an Aufenthaltskarte nor a Bürgerbüro exists in Germany

burgerburo: http://www.kleve.de/C12572B30025D73F/html/...12574EC00368C5C

aufenthaltskarte: http://www.duesseldorf.de/buergerinfo/33/03/34eu03.shtml

moreover, even if you are married the rules and regulations have changed since a couple of years. the foreign wife of a german citizen will have to prove german language knowledge "Goethe Institut Level One".

the german immigration law has changed for germans, not for EU citizens from other countries.

Edited August 31, 2009 by bangla

[asia_pilot]

Or you simply have kids and the Language rubbish does not apply to you

Btw: This is not just German law. This is all over the EU to every country within the EU.

@ Naam: Some Cities call it 'Buergerbuero'. And the 'Aufenthaltskarte' is called 'Aufenhaltserlaubis' which is the same thing

Edited August 31, 2009 by asia_pilot

[abdulrahman]

Good luck,but don't push it!You do not sound coldhearted, just uninformed.

Thank you very much!I understand reverse discrimination,or hope so.

It wasn't my point!

[BelfastMike]

Well I am now back in Germany. Yes here Visa was refused again.

Same reason as the first time, she could not show adequate reason to return to Thailand.

So, as Bastian has suggested. I will contact the Foreign Authority here in Koln and ask their advice on obtaining a Fiance Visa.

I'll post my progress in this thread.

[worldfun]

I did this exact thing a few years back (being an EU citizen in Germany having a TG visit & subsequently family reunited after marriage (in TH):

1) 90 days schengen visa was granted fairly easy based on her former employers letter. In your case as she now has land title, but still got rejected I guess the embassy is playing tough perhaps she is from a 'ill reputed province' which obviously is unfair & poor use of probabilities that she's yet another illegal prostitute in Germany (yes koln/ruhr area is ill reputed for such also!).

2) family reunion/family visa. this again was easily granted & should be for you also if you decide marriage is worth it at this stage? the reason why they basically cant refuse her is because of you being EU citizen & thereby being granted permanent german residence ('unbefristet eu aufenhalt' which you should get within 3 months of working in Germany) & thus they have to match that for your wife without inconvenience! So basically she get the family visa & once arrived it gets converted to permanent German residence/90 days eu schengen visa) & stays that way for life until she may divorce. A german could never hope to get for his non eu wife that easily within say 5 years

as to a potential 4th attempt at visit/fiance visa as said contact relevant office(s) in Germany and/or perhaps get her previous 'employer' (family company?) to write a letter or even enroll her for some 'reputable' study just to put her apart from the typical 'pros' yeah. We all know how it is so better play by the rules instead of mourning.

sure we all feel our girl is better/different than the others & why we have to jump the hoops & bullshit, but its you who want a 'service' right so better qualify/obey the rules

cheers

[BelfastMike]

Worldfun. Thanks for the info. Yes my G/F is from Isaan, so perhaps there is a little prejudice there.

Particularly interested in what you've said regarding German Permanent Residence for her. But I'll ask more about that once she is actually able to enter Germany.

I've been reading up on the EEA Family Permit thing (Directive 2004/38/EC) and it would seem that if I can satisfy the German Embassy that a "durable duly attested relationship" exists between us then the Embassy will have little choice but to grant a Visa.

However, they have not responded to my correspondance requesting they specify the criteria which must be met to prove this kind of relationship.

I'll keep faxing them until I get a response. Yes faxing. Germans love it, even in this day and age.

[worldfun]

definitely if you become married it's a no brainer that she will become permanet resident (as long as you got that yourself which if you haven't is worth a short visit at local immigration to get that paper?).

however as the eea family rights of free movement is implemented differently by different member states I advice you to get the latest on germany to see if there's real chance of proving "durable duly attested relationship" else leaving you with the other 2 options (marriage or 90 day schengen visit) with the latter case needing to prove her desire/incentive to return home to TH after the visit as you so far found problematic unfortunately

I think in our case I quickly realised it was not going to be possible going the 'unmarried spouse' route in Germany thus going for the short visit & eventually marriage...

Prior to that in Sweden we also got rejected in trying to get a 1 year (long visit) as 'au pair/nanny' not sure exactly why that was rejected though, but others had mentioned it as viable long stay workaround. Perhaps having no children could have had something to do with it LOL.

Cheers!

[BelfastMike]

Not that keen on getting married before she has spent at least a month or two in Europe. For all we know she may hate it and that would mean divorce and even more headaches.

From reading the the guide on the EC Directive, it would appear that once we satisfy the German Embassy of a "durable and duly attested relationship" then the application should go through. Here's the guide BTW.

http://ec.europa.eu/commission_barroso/fra...04_38_ec_en.pdf

The question is. How does the German Embassy define a "durable and duly attested relationship?" So far they have been elusive in answering this question. I will keep asking until someone gives me an answer.

[worldfun]

well yeah I see what you're saying not wise rushing into marriage just for a visa & definitely if plans are for her to live with you longterm in germany/europe it's indeed VERY wise to test the waters initially particularly if she never travelled to europe/west previously or even outside los as per normal for many gals...

so yeah while waiting for the german proof criterium I guess you can start looking what kind of proof you actually have at hand/available such as e.g. photos together, emails, letters, phone call stats, sms, chats, los visits those sorts of things? what else could it be

duration of relation (typically a few years are needed particularly if mainly living apart) etc etc.

good luck - you'll need it!

[Kf6vci]

Well, I'm a Kraut and would be happy to translate a document or make a phone call or write an appeal in German on your behalf.

No financial interest (would be free).

It's the standard excuse...

Get her the right to visit the UK, then you guys can waltz into Germany.

My wife has an American passport, so she could visit and see my house without a VISA. Otherwise,

I'm sure there would be the same hassles.

Wonna take her home as your wife? Not so fast, there is a tough language test!!

Good luck, and feel free to PM me if you need non legal help.

Chris

[BelfastMike]

It seems impossible to satisfy the criteria of "enduring relationship" without getting married.

The annoying thing is. The embassy's descision was based entirely on one page of notes scrawled by the Thai lady who interviewed my girlfriend. When I spoke to the German staff member who had refused the visa, it was clear he had not passed anymore than a cursory eye over the fat folder of "evidence" I had provided.

We're getting engaged soon and we will try again in March for a tourist visa. Not that I think an engagement ring will make a difference. Now of course she has two refusal stamps in her passport which won't help. Perhaps a fresh passport is in order?

Thanks kf6vci for the offer of help. I may take you up on that nearer the time.

[alyx]

Hey Mike

I hope you will find a way . However, I would like to take you on a couple of points

1) You are contemplating marriage for the sake of obtaining a visa and are afraid to take the step beacuse one or two months in Germany would be necessary to assess whether you get along over there (actually you said if she likes it or not): driven by love then go for it, any other reason would be the wrong one. I am also sure that plenty of husbands/wives have seen their "imported" (not in a pejorative way) spouses leave them after a year or so because they had found a more interesting way of like, so a month, six, a year, two.....?

I also hope her English is perfect as you will be her only connection to the outside world. Mind you, depending on where you are located, your friend will be able to find a Thai community, but, if that is the case, you might find yourself quite alone sometimes as meeting Thai friends is more attractive to a lonely Thai than staying home all day

2) More importantly: you are right, you are nowhere near to prove that you have en enduring relationship. Renting a flat in your names, flat that you visit now and then (less frequently lately), certainly would not support such a claim

All the details you have volunteered spell everything but an harmonious shared life together with your friend

I am not saying you are not the real deal but you should be aware of the number of tourists (I am not classifying you as one) who arrive here (or other countries for that matter) find someone, keep (or not) in touch with each other (by exactly the sames means you have described), turn up at their Embassies not understanding why their "strong" dossier has been turned down

Unfortunately the good pay for the bad

I hope you do not resent my comments

Edited December 10, 2009 by alyx

[BelfastMike]

I am aware of the risks involved in long-distance relationships, especially with Thai ladies.

Obviously we do love and trust each other and marriage would have been on the cards at some point anyway. If that's what it takes to get a Visa for Germany, then so be it.

A number of my friends also have Thai other-halfs so a social life shouldn't be a problem and hopefully these girls can support my partner while she settles into life in the West. Language and climate are going to be two big hurdles. Her spoken and written English is good but German is non-existent (like mine).

Cheers for the comments. It's good to take a "glass is half empty" view on things now and again.

[Bastian]

me again

There is no need for you to show an 'enduring relationship' and since you are not a german citizen there is no need for the language test kf6vci mentioned either. The only thing you need is to do is make all the neccessary preparations at the marriage registrar in germany and have your gf apply for a marriage visa.

It will probably take a lot of time and effort to get all the paperwork right (get birth certificates, affirmations of freedom to marry or marital status certificates, get it all translated by court approved translators, maybe verified by the embassy with nothing being older than a few months...), but there is virtually no way the visa can be refused.

For family reunion visas the foreign authority sometimes suspects a marriage of convenience and will then initiate simultaneous questioning of the couple, one partner in the embassy, one in the foreign authority and see if the answers match, but in the end if such a visa were rejected, the burden of proof would be with the government if the refused applicant seeks the court.