Thai Soldiers Accused Of Burning Alive Teenage Logger

[Plus]

I looked at upiasia story and there are no specifics there on what they army could have done differently, and they blame mostly the court.

I'm getting kind of tired of "demand competence" without ANY suggestions of how it should have been done under circumstances.

The commanders procured ten trucks and there were a thousand people, and the night was approaching.

The nearest army base was several hours away.

And then there's a poster who says it was a case of gross inhumanity, but then goes on to demonstrate that burning people alive is not such a bad thing and happens all the time.

[Artisi]

Will you have balls to rebel and tell the commanding officer to fuc_k off in the name of human rights and risk losing your own life in the process?

Just shows how those in charge should be held liable for such an inhumane act. No yes , but, we didn't know etc. bullsh!t

[geriatrickid]

Have a look: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CGlTYqqK98...feature=related Have a read: http://www.upiasia.com/Human_Rights/2009/0...sappoints/4198/

Not much to say after that.

Absolutely indefensible.

What if there is some slick editing? I am always hesitant to accept highly edited "evidence" ever since I saw a few examples of alleged atrocities that really were not. Not saying that brutality doesn't exist or that people are not murdered. however, if one wishes to espouse justice, then one must adhere to the proper documentation of the crime before passing judgement.

[apetley]

This is from an Asian Human Rights Commission open letter.

http://www.ahrchk.net/statements/mainfile....statements/804/

"The Government noted its deep regret at the 78 deaths that occurred in relation to the transportation of detainees and characterized it as a 'process which, in hindsight, with greater care and more scrupulous preparations could have been avoided'. It also noted its commitment to 'ensuring that the incident is promptly, independently and thoroughly investigated' and that 'where wrongdoing is found, those responsible would be held to account by due process of law'."

Even the Thai government noted the need for better preparation.

Even the Thai government acknowledged the need for wrong doing to be investigated and if guilty punished.

The silence since is deafening.

[edwinchester]

"they had to put a thousand people on ten trucks" as an excuse ? nice. what they actually had to do was ensure a level of care. if they had to transport people, they do so properly according prisoners their rights. we are talking about the thai national military here, with a budget for things like buses.

They had a few hours before dark to organize this operation, there was no time to push the budget for buses and wait for delivery.

They had ten trucks that could be locked from outside, prisoner rights or not, that was all there was.

And no, they couldn't lease buses suitable for transporting prisoners from some company on a few hours notice.

Again, the simple point that the deaths were unintended is escaping you. That's the difference between Tak Bai and the alleged burning people alive.

Rohingyas were pushed back according to the rule book at the time. Other countries are not represented only by diplomats - they also have media to express their feelings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CGlTYqqK98...feature=related

Have a look at the video.

These are not trucks that can be locked from the outside.

They are not the trucks used by the police or prisons to transport prisoners with lockable cages.

They are open, canvas roof with drop down sides.

They are two a penny in Thailand. The armed forces have thousands!

[brahmburgers]

Tak Bai - they had to put a thousand people on ten trucks.

Bullshit!

A civilized military always has the option of holding "prisoners" and waiting for more transportation.

The military were being directed by Thaksin who was PM at that time. Due to screw ups at a previous rally by young Muslims, Mr. Iron Fist Thaksin demanded that any future incidents (Tak Bai, for example) be micro-managed by T himself.

Even so, there must have been at least some military brass on the scene. Very poor decisions were made, which is a reflection of the failed Thai system of promoting military (and police and teachers and bureaucrats) on connections and payments rather than skills and intelligence.

I wouldn't expect the Thai army to have plastic draw handcuffs (whatever they're called) on hand, but surely the military has access to rope. If there were too many detainees for the number of trucks, then tie 'em up - to each other sitting on the ground or to trees. Do soldiers know how to tie knots?

Some criminally bad decisions were made that night. I can understand soldiers and brass were scared and harried, but that's part of the job description.

Altogether criminal decisions were made, and T, the top brass on the scene and individual soldiers who jumped on the complaining detainees (to increase their suffering) should all be prosecuted and made to pay maximum price if found guilty. It couldn't happen by a Thai court, but could possibly happen at the Hague, as crimes against humanity.

As for the Cambodian incident: much, if not all the hearsay is coming from the dead boy's associate, who escaped. That's not firm evidence in itself. It could have happened that the escaped boy killed his partner (jealous rage over a girl?) and tried to cover it up. Outside investigators should investigate. I can believe Thais shooting someone, but the 'burning alive' accusations are too far fetched.

Edited September 19, 2009 by brahmburgers

[Scott]

It's nice to see all the apologists come out and defend the indefensible.

Good to see that it was Mr. Thaksin's fault for Tak Bai. Nice to know that the Cambodian boy didn't really happen. Now for the tough one, the Rohingya's.

[johnsona]

Thailand 'lying' over boy's death, says Cambodia

By The Nation

Published on September 18, 2009

Thailand 'lying' over boy's death, says Cambodia

Cambodia yesterday accused Thailand of lying when it denied involvement in the death of a Cambodian teenager near the border of Thailand's northeastern Surin province.

The young Cambodian was reportedly shot and burned alive as he and other Cambodian loggers tried to escape from the Thai military into Cambodia's Oddar Meanchey province.

The Second Army Region Commander Lt. General Wiboonsak Neeparn said he had checked records of all agencies under his command and found no evidence of any shooting.

"There was no such incident in the area. I wonder why Cambodia made such a report?" the commander said.

The Thai Foreign Ministry has maintained the same stance, saying the brutal incident never happened.

Ministry spokesperson Wimon Kidchob said earlier Thai soldiers fired bullets into the air after finding eight Cambodians sneaking into Thailand to cut down trees.

The denial has angered authorities in Cambodia, both in Oddar Meanchey and in Phnom Penh.

Oddar Meanchey Governor Pich Sokhin called the Thai assertion a lie. "How could our people have been injured and killed if their soldiers shot into the air?" the governor was quoted by the Phnom Penh Post.

"Their interpretation is a lie to avoid responsibility and to hide their cruelty from the public. Our people are injured and dead. How can they say they are not responsible?"

The Cambodian Foreign Ministry has sent a diplomatic note to Bangkok asking for an explanation and is still awaiting an official reply.

Phnom Penh has urged Thailand to conduct an investigation into the case and find and punish those responsible.

-- The Nation 2009/09/18

Thais lied, and they were a liar because they don't want to be responsible for their inhumane act. This shows Thais army are not a human beeing, they are a group of terrorists. Only Terrorists would arrest human and burn alive, so Thais army are Terrorists. Why they don't want to speak about the true because they are afraid of losing their face, actually, they already lost it. The Secretary of U.S Defence will meet with the ministry of defence of Kingdom of Cambodia. We could see that because Thais' military are really brutal, and it's unacceptable by the U.S and other countries around the world. The only thing that Thais government could take their face in the international is to apoligize what they have done. But I don't think they have human been feeling, because they are Thais. Don't born as Thais, don't live as Thais, and Don't act as Thais. They are terrorists.

Mr. Justice

Edited September 19, 2009 by johnsona

[Plus]

"they had to put a thousand people on ten trucks" as an excuse ? nice. what they actually had to do was ensure a level of care. if they had to transport people, they do so properly according prisoners their rights. we are talking about the thai national military here, with a budget for things like buses.

They had a few hours before dark to organize this operation, there was no time to push the budget for buses and wait for delivery.

They had ten trucks that could be locked from outside, prisoner rights or not, that was all there was.

And no, they couldn't lease buses suitable for transporting prisoners from some company on a few hours notice.

Again, the simple point that the deaths were unintended is escaping you. That's the difference between Tak Bai and the alleged burning people alive.

Rohingyas were pushed back according to the rule book at the time. Other countries are not represented only by diplomats - they also have media to express their feelings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CGlTYqqK98...feature=related

Have a look at the video.

These are not trucks that can be locked from the outside.

They are not the trucks used by the police or prisons to transport prisoners with lockable cages.

They are open, canvas roof with drop down sides.

They are two a penny in Thailand. The armed forces have thousands!

Do you have any evidence that they had more trucks available in that area but didn't use them? Or do you seriously believe they have thousands of trucks on standby in every little village?

I would go with judgment error, manslaughter, gross negligence - whatever, but not premeditated slaughter, and certainly not on par with burning a teenager alive.

At Tak Bai they should have been trying to prosecute them for firing live rounds into the crowd and killing 6 people than arguing maximum capacity of those trucks.

Key word in that letter to AHRC - in hindsight.

Rohingya - there were no hundreds, possibly thousand dead after Thai navy set them adrift.

And Scott, can you stick to your moderating duties and stop flaming posters by comparing them to Iraqi information minister. First time I saw it I thought I should press "report" button.

Truth, for you, is a that Thai military are inhumane. That's not truth, that's an opinion. Facts are that there's no evidence Thai army was involved in the burning alive incident, there's no evidence the soldiers were trying to deliberately suffocate those muslims in the trucks, and there were no thousand dead Rohingyas starved to death. Whatever conclusions you draw from this facts is not "truth".

[edwinchester]

"they had to put a thousand people on ten trucks" as an excuse ? nice. what they actually had to do was ensure a level of care. if they had to transport people, they do so properly according prisoners their rights. we are talking about the thai national military here, with a budget for things like buses.

They had a few hours before dark to organize this operation, there was no time to push the budget for buses and wait for delivery.

They had ten trucks that could be locked from outside, prisoner rights or not, that was all there was.

And no, they couldn't lease buses suitable for transporting prisoners from some company on a few hours notice.

Again, the simple point that the deaths were unintended is escaping you. That's the difference between Tak Bai and the alleged burning people alive.

Rohingyas were pushed back according to the rule book at the time. Other countries are not represented only by diplomats - they also have media to express their feelings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CGlTYqqK98...feature=related

Have a look at the video.

These are not trucks that can be locked from the outside.

They are not the trucks used by the police or prisons to transport prisoners with lockable cages.

They are open, canvas roof with drop down sides.

They are two a penny in Thailand. The armed forces have thousands!

Do you have any evidence that they had more trucks available in that area but didn't use them? Or do you seriously believe they have thousands of trucks on standby in every little village?

I would go with judgment error, manslaughter, gross negligence - whatever, but not premeditated slaughter, and certainly not on par with burning a teenager alive.

At Tak Bai they should have been trying to prosecute them for firing live rounds into the crowd and killing 6 people than arguing maximum capacity of those trucks.

Key word in that letter to AHRC - in hindsight.

Rohingya - there were no hundreds, possibly thousand dead after Thai navy set them adrift.

And Scott, can you stick to your moderating duties and stop flaming posters by comparing them to Iraqi information minister. First time I saw it I thought I should press "report" button.

Truth, for you, is a that Thai military are inhumane. That's not truth, that's an opinion. Facts are that there's no evidence Thai army was involved in the burning alive incident, there's no evidence the soldiers were trying to deliberately suffocate those muslims in the trucks, and there were no thousand dead Rohingyas starved to death. Whatever conclusions you draw from this facts is not "truth".

If more trucks were immediately unavailable then more should have been requested. If none were forthcoming them the Thai troops should have set up a cordon and guarded the already the civilians until more were available, simple as that.

Why the rush? Surely not afraid of the approaching dark?

Fact is that elements in the Thai armed forces are inhumane.

Kicking people whilst they are unable to defend themselves is inhumane.

Shooting unarmed civilians is inhumane.

Piling civilians one on top of each other is inhumane, a dunce can comprehend that one.

Hindsight is a well known government way of saying, 'yes, somebody fcuked up last time'.

[Scott]

And Scott, can you stick to your moderating duties and stop flaming posters by comparing them to Iraqi information minister. First time I saw it I thought I should press "report" button

I don't recall using your name in my post, or anyone's name for that matter. If I have offended you, I sincerely apologize.

I will however, continue to defend people who cannot defend themselves because they are not alive and they were killed without the benefit of anything remotely resembling a trial.

[brahmburgers]

from Plus:

"there's no evidence the soldiers were trying to deliberately suffocate those muslims in the trucks"

Wrong. There was at least one Muslim survivor (and likely many more) who knew the suffocation was going on - early enough for it to have been averted. The trucks were detained for a long time (not sure why, but Thais are dreadful at logistics). The soldiers on the scene were scared, especially with night approaching, of an attack by angry Muslim mobs who were not already detained. This is natural in such a dire situation, and it's sensible to take prisoners to a more securable place - as they were planning at that time.

However, while waiting several hours, with engines idling (and fumes everywhere, probably coming up through the floorboards of the flatbed trucks). At least one Muslim called out to a soldier "help please, my brother is suffocating down there under the weight of the others!" In response, the soldier promptly stood on the top layer of detainees and bounced up and down.

This may seem like slim proof that soldiers knew suffocations were going on, but it's probably but one cry among thousands that night, and you can bet the Thai military did everything they can to snuff out any bad publicity that might ensue. Incidentally, it's entirely believable. Plus, any 4 year old kid knows if you stack people one upon the other, the ones lower down won't be able to breathe.

So Plus, and anyone else who thinks the military did not know what was going on for the hours that detainees were suffocating, I strongly disagree in the strongest terms. It was and continues to be an ugly blemish on the Thai military, and it's a further sin that no tangible retribution came down on the perpetrators. If Thaksin had only participated in that cover up, and not done any of the hundreds of black deeds attributed to him, he would still be the lowest scum of a scoundrel.

[dumball]

Plus must be the most adamant defender of Thailand on this forum , he should be presented with a crown , preferably of thorns , to commemerate his undying tanacity for the Thai he obviously feels he has become . On this thread he has realy reached rock bottom in his fervoured attempt to defend the inane , love to have had him in my mans army !!!!!!1

[Plus]

And Scott, can you stick to your moderating duties and stop flaming posters by comparing them to Iraqi information minister. First time I saw it I thought I should press "report" button

I don't recall using your name in my post, or anyone's name for that matter.

I didn't mention you offended me either.

Just sort out this moderator/debater thing, please.

Brahmburgers, here, in your own post, is the answer why even if someone cried for help for those suffocating they were not going to let them off the trucks:

"The soldiers on the scene were scared, especially with night approaching, of an attack by angry Muslim mobs who were not already detained."

Yes, the detainees were treated with no respect for their human dignity, but it's still a long way from actually ending their lives, though on the spur of the moment that probably wasn't a very high priority.

To make a distinction clear - soldiers were out to humiliate them, not to kill, and it's the humiliation that burns muslim hearts to this day, not the deaths per se.

>>>

Or consider this hypothetical scenario - there were five more trucks, detainees are stacked in four layers instead of five, no one dies. Military are out in the clear, more or less.

Unless you can show that they deliberately ordered less trucks than there were available, don't declare that they were out to suffocate the detainees. Unless you can show evidence that they were stalling on purpose, don't paint them as soulless killers.

As I said - gross negligence, manslaughter, judgment error, but not premeditated murder of 80 people.

[apetley]

And Scott, can you stick to your moderating duties and stop flaming posters by comparing them to Iraqi information minister. First time I saw it I thought I should press "report" button

I don't recall using your name in my post, or anyone's name for that matter.

I didn't mention you offended me either.

Just sort out this moderator/debater thing, please.

Brahmburgers, here, in your own post, is the answer why even if someone cried for help for those suffocating they were not going to let them off the trucks:

"The soldiers on the scene were scared, especially with night approaching, of an attack by angry Muslim mobs who were not already detained."

Yes, the detainees were treated with no respect for their human dignity, but it's still a long way from actually ending their lives, though on the spur of the moment that probably wasn't a very high priority.

To make a distinction clear - soldiers were out to humiliate them, not to kill, and it's the humiliation that burns muslim hearts to this day, not the deaths per se.

>>>

Or consider this hypothetical scenario - there were five more trucks, detainees are stacked in four layers instead of five, no one dies. Military are out in the clear, more or less.

Unless you can show that they deliberately ordered less trucks than there were available, don't declare that they were out to suffocate the detainees. Unless you can show evidence that they were stalling on purpose, don't paint them as soulless killers.

As I said - gross negligence, manslaughter, judgment error, but not premeditated murder of 80 people.

Isn't it sad that it seems certain that nobody will ever be held to account for these failings that led to so many innocent deaths.

[Plus]

Apparently they were immune from prosecution thanks to the Emergency Decree, it was a non-starter.

The Nation once promised to investigate the issue - was there a decree in place and who and what was covered by it, but they didn't keep their promise. The court mentioned it in its ruling, that's all we know.

Personally I'd go for shooting live rounds into the crowd and killing six (or eight?) people, and, of course, for politicians who publicly defended military action without any regret for any of the victims.