"Violence Unlikely" At Today's Red-shirt Rally

[hammered]

still, there is nothing stopping a yellow or blue shirt putting on a red shirt and provoking the police & escalating violence. .... then the media will blame it all on the red shirts

Absolutely correct, MC2.

Similarly there is nothing stopping a red shirt protester, or group of protesters, from provoking the police & escalating violence. Then they can blame a third hand, while Thaksin reaps the benefit of more upheaval in the nation's capitol.

It just goes round and round, and there will be no way for the general public to know the truth.

Even red shirt supporters I converse with admit:

there are very violent elements within the red shirts (not everyone is though)

that even several red shirt leaders have fessed up to the violence

that the movement has had to address where it went wrong with the violence. Dont believe everything that reds do is actuially yellows or blues in disguise as even a lot of red shirts and thei sympathisers dont accept that

[mc2]

I never considered myself pro-Thaksin. I have critisised thaksin a number of times on various issues in the past.

That is possibly the biggest load of crap you have posted to date, to say you are not pro-Thaksin is ludicrous.

for arguments sake, even if i am pro-thaksin, so what ? plenty of obsessive, relentless, anti-thaksin posters on here that seem to be doing fine.

[basjke]

I never considered myself pro-Thaksin. I have critisised thaksin a number of times on various issues in the past.

That must be a picture of you in your avatar then.

[hammered]

Red shirts end protest in Korat

By The Nation

Pro-Thaksin protesters failed to reach residence of Privy Councillor President Gen Prem Tinsulanonda in Nakhon Ratchasima as they faced with barricades and hundreds of police.

Joint forces of police and soldiers set up a blockage on a road leading to Gen Prem's residence to prevent the protesters from going to Prem's residence.

Their leader; Arisamun Pongruengrong, spoke through a megaphone, demanding for Gen Prem to stay out of politics and calling for Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva to dissolve the House.

Gen Prem is now in Nakhon Ratchasima to chair a scholarship granting ceremony.

Arisamun, a former singer, has been charged with inciting unrest when he led the protesters to a building which was close to meeting venue of Asean Summit in Pattaya in April. The invasion forced the Thai government to cancel the summit.

After failing to march to Prem's residence, Arisamun dispersed the protest, inviting the protesters to go to Bangkok to join the protest in Bangkok.

-- The Nation 2009/09/19

In most countries Arisamun wouldnt be a free man after publically leading a demo that led to the cancellation of an international event and evacuation of world leaders let alone leading demos on people's houses. Amazing Thailand.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

his good mate Ferwert is about to leave us again.

[hammered]

Army chief Gen Anupong Paojinda admitted that he also had received an intelligent report about the plan to provoke unrest on Saturday night.

“It was reported that the agitators plan to use bomb attack on various state offices in order to create a situation”, Gen Anupong said.

http://bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/154804...incite-violence

Interesting on differing intelligence reports. Then again we probably also have to look at who the intellignece operatives support too.

[Supernova]

It fairer to say that yellow shirts are pro monarchy, in its purest sence. While the red shirts are more pro a Thaskin dictatorship. While the Democrats are pro democracy and currently lead a coalition government. I hope that helps.

I think you've got it all wrong...

The yellow shirts are pro-military, while the reds are pro-democracy oriented. The yellow shirts favor an appointed Government over elected MPs... I hardly consider this a democracy. Thaksin = dictatorship? LOL. Where did you get that from? Not that support either group being a 'neutral' myself, but I think that's a pretty bold statement with little substance to it.

[miatai]

National Intelligence Agency... that has about as much validity as "Mexican Border"

I would not give to much credit to US intelligent community, beside I thought they were trained by Mexican anyways

....us intelligence????

explain how sept 11 or 9/11 happened,given all the us intelligence....

france, thailand and mexico?????

comparing apples and pears?????

thais are more capable than that.....whatever the color of the shirts they are wearing......

perhaps some people come from some closeted world where book knowledge reigns supreme and is out of sync with the real thai world.....

[dre1247]

Big Red Shirt rally here in Korat today,, march on Prems house apparently. At least 20,000 expected.

http://koratfarang.com/board/index.php?topic=6105.0

I think I,ll stay in and bask in the glory of Sheffield United beating Sheffield Wednesday at football.....

Well, only 2000 showed up and wend away after being refused to get close. 2000 x 500 = 1000000 cash register pling pling hahaha

Thailand needs a moratorium on protests, at least for a while.

[hammered]

It fairer to say that yellow shirts are pro monarchy, in its purest sence. While the red shirts are more pro a Thaskin dictatorship. While the Democrats are pro democracy and currently lead a coalition government. I hope that helps.

I think you've got it all wrong...

The yellow shirts are pro-military, while the reds are pro-democracy oriented. The yellow shirts favor an appointed Government over elected MPs... I hardly consider this a democracy. Thaksin = dictatorship? LOL. Where did you get that from? Not that support either group being a 'neutral' myself, but I think that's a pretty bold statement with little substance to it.

In reality I think you will find both yellow and red are quite diverse across their membership and are basically united around ior aginst Thaksin

The reds include republicans, pro-democracy advocates based around constitutional monarchy, communists, reactionary provincially based mafia groups, lanna resurgence groups, pure Thaksin supporters who couldnt care if democracy was around or not etc, uber Buddhists, business groups who benefitted from or who are linked to the Shin clan, bits of class ten and 7, paid supporters etc

The yellows include communists, NGO characters, ultra-monarchists, business groups who suffered under the Shin clan, nationalists, bits of class 7, pro-democracy advocates, paid supporters etc

It is hard to reduce the aims down to any set of poltical ideals as they both tend to be completly diverse, and that is without taking into account swing groups. What the groups tell you they represent of what the useless analysts say they represent is imho more wishful thinking than anything very accurate. I have also met yellow republicans and ultra nationalist reds.

[baht&sold]

Red/yellow/blue or any hue, like another poster here, just about every person I talk to (both Thais and foreigners) are completely fed up with the lot. The silent majority would simply like Thailand to be 'permitted' to enjoy a spate of stability (along with a slowly returning economy and a modest high season). Unfortunately that all runs counter to the megalomaniacal ambitions of basically ONE man, and a returning economy or even a modestly successful high season might spell 'disaster' for his return potential.

As one who does not approve of coups, or violence to obtain political agendas, here's hoping the red rally to 'return democracy' - (or to return Mr Thaksin and his frozen 2 billion USD, exonerate all charges, get rid of vote-fraud rules, un-ban dirty politicians, again place cronies or relatives on every board & govt appointed post etc, re-take over public media, muzzle or eliminate govt watchdogs and generally undermine the intent of 'democracy') -all goes peacefully...

[debcmai]

I never considered myself pro-Thaksin. I have critisised thaksin a number of times on various issues in the past.

I'm with you....NEVER have been 'pro-Thaksin'...but absolutely believe in democracy and the right of citizens to elect someone without coups and reprisals....

And, doc, are we only allowed to post without warnings if we agree with YOUR 'team"?

I seem to think that your comment about Thaksin was a bit political???? Doncha think?

[Scott]

A response to an inquiry about the 1981 Coup written by Publicus was deleted. It required a slight deletion and is now being restored. Here it is:

A post at another thread presented some discussion of the unsuccessful 1981 attempted coup by what author David K. Wyatt called some "Young Turks" in the army, led by Gen Sant Chitpatima. I certainly wasn't arount at the time and have few accounts to go by and Wyatt is one. I'm certain other forumists could add more than the following brief summary account.

According to Wyatt, Gen Prem became PM in February of 1980 after the army and many others became dissatisfied with the army's appointed PM Thanin Kraivichien, a high court justice who'd turned out to be more authoritarian and repressive than any previous appointed civilian PM. Thanin censored the press, silenced labor unions, purged teachers and bureaucrats and required Thais to undergo anticommunist "education." Many felt Thailand was moving inexorabily away from any hope of regaining democracy.

Gen Prem succeeded Thanin from Prem's positon of commander-in-chief of the army after having persuaded Thanin to resign.

The coup began on April 1st when certain army units seemingly unhappy with everyone seized vital military and government centers in Bangkok. PM Gen Prem and the Royal Family relocated to the always loyalist army garrison at Nakon Rachisima to regroup and organize a counter coup action.

While a message from Queen Sirikit was being read over the radio, PM Gen Prem led a column of fiercely loyalist troops from the historically loyalist Nakon Rachisima garrison to Bangkok where after only two soldiers were wounded, Prem prevented Gen Chitpatima moblizing the allegiance of more military units in Bangkok and its immediate environs.

So on April 3, Gen Prem was able to retake Bangkok thereby ending the short lived coup which some farang have dubbed the "April Fool's Coup" but which none the less did pose a threat to the existing order.

The author Wyatt clearly writes well of Gen Prem as Prem assumed the position of PM, stating: "Prem began...with a broadly based parliamentary coalition that included the Democrat party...Few members of his large cabinet were military men and he won considerable support by appointing respected experts to key positions managing economic policy. Prem was known to have broad military backing owing to a record untainted by corruption and distingushed by field operations against insurgency in the northeast."

(See: David K. Wyatt, "Thailand: A Short History," Silkworm Books, Chaing Mai, Rev 1998, Pages: 351.)

[losworld]

So bottom line:

> The "Reds" want elections, the "Yellows" dont.

> Would it be accurate to therefore define the Reds as Democratic, and the Yellows as Undemocratic?

> That being the case, why dont they define these political movements as such, and get away from non-politically-descriptive terminology dealing with colors. It would clarify things for most casual observers, and place things into a clearer political context.

I think both sides want elections if they know they can win.

Edited September 19, 2009 by losworld

[TAWP]

> Would it be accurate to therefore define the Reds as Democratic, and the Yellows as Undemocratic?

that's certainally one way of defining it.

yellows are anti-democratic, afraid of elections, prefer coups, and are driven by hate.

reds are democratic, pro-election, despise coups and are driven by love.

Hahaha, best joke-post of the day.

Driven by love, haha, I almost spat my lunch out.

[TAWP]

So considering that you defined the "Reds" as election focussed Democrats, and the "Yellows" non-electoral anti-democrats, who is in power now?

The "democrats" or the "non-democrats"?

Does that mean this "Reds" focussed rally I have been reading so much about here, suggests they are not in power, and want Democracy returned??????

Ahh, welcome sock-puppet #4412.

Todays PR-trick: pretend to be a complete ignoramus, get educated by one of the least credible users around and then become his opinionated twin in the debate.

Let's watch this one unfold, shall we?

[Xangsamhua]

It fairer to say that yellow shirts are pro monarchy, in its purest sence. While the red shirts are more pro a Thaskin dictatorship. While the Democrats are pro democracy and currently lead a coalition government. I hope that helps.

I think you've got it all wrong...

The yellow shirts are pro-military, while the reds are pro-democracy oriented. The yellow shirts favor an appointed Government over elected MPs... I hardly consider this a democracy. Thaksin = dictatorship? LOL. Where did you get that from? Not that support either group being a 'neutral' myself, but I think that's a pretty bold statement with little substance to it.

It's not as stark as that. The PAD's (yellow-shirts) announcement of the "New Politics" is over a year old now and it talks about a number of things to do with the political situation at that time (during Somchai Wongsawat's tenure as PM). Regarding the mixed representational system they said ( 8 Sep 08):

"The proposal on the PAD stage of a 70:30 ratio of public representatives to elected representatives is merely an example of how the old-style politics should be replaced and is open to discussion. It is not a fixed formula advocated by the PAD. We are ready for a discussion from all sides on designing new politics and will respect the majority decision for new politics that is ethical, moral, and more representative of the varied social sectors to go in line with the lifestyles and culture of Thailand but still upholding democracy under a Constitutional Monarchy."

The full statement is (or was) at http://pad.vfly.net/en/27/pads-announcement-on-new-politics/

I don't know who it was that spoke about 70:30 on the stage.

Under the banner of the New Politics Party (Pak Karnmueangmai), PAD will contest the next elections. Their idea of a partly appointed government made up of exemplary citizens and honest elected members seems to be a pipe-dream. They do say they will increase the proportion of women in government.

[Scott]

I am certainly not a fan of Thaksin, but I also do not support military coups and intervention in civil politics. I do not like the Yellows at all, but I think it is quite unfair to consider them 'un'democratic. I think both sides want what is best for the country. There is just a wide gap in how to go about it.

It's a little easier to outwardly conider the red shirts as being democratic, however, the fixation on Thaksin poses a real problem. About the only way he could return and assume power would be through a military coup--which is highly unlikely to happen--at least one that is favorable to him. If he did return to power in this manner, that would be very undemocratic.

The country faces unique challenges. Forward movement which is widely seen as progressive and more on the side of democratic reform is quite scary and a movement into the unknown. It severely challenges a number of deeply engrained cultural traits that are unique to Thais. Movement in the other direction is widely seen as a acknowledgement of the hierarcy that exists and is well entrenched. For many this is not acceptable.

There is merit in what both sides want and few answers for a way out. For me personally, I have little vested interest in seeing either side win. Thais have been good about making compromises that work for them. I hope they can find a way out of this situation.

I wish to return to the good ol' days when I could put on a yellow or red shirt based on my personal preference, rather than a perceived political one!

[Scott]

I am certainly not a fan of Thaksin, but I also do not support military coups and intervention in civil politics. I do not like the Yellows at all, but I think it is quite unfair to consider them 'un'democratic. I think both sides want what is best for the country. There is just a wide gap in how to go about it.

It's a little easier to outwardly conider the red shirts as being democratic, however, the fixation on Thaksin poses a real problem. About the only way he could return and assume power would be through a military coup--which is highly unlikely to happen--at least one that is favorable to him. If he did return to power in this manner, that would be very undemocratic.

The country faces unique challenges. Forward movement which is widely seen as progressive and more on the side of democratic reform is quite scary and a movement into the unknown. It severely challenges a number of deeply engrained cultural traits that are unique to Thais. Movement in the other direction is widely seen as a acknowledgement of the hierarcy that exists and is well entrenched. For many this is not acceptable.

There is merit in what both sides want and few answers for a way out. For me personally, I have little vested interest in seeing either side win. Thais have been good about making compromises that work for them. I hope they can find a way out of this situation.

I wish to return to the good ol' days when I could put on a yellow or red shirt based on my personal preference, rather than a perceived political one!

[webfact]

A nonsensical post containing a fictitious letter has been deleted.

[mc2]

> Would it be accurate to therefore define the Reds as Democratic, and the Yellows as Undemocratic?

that's certainally one way of defining it.

yellows are anti-democratic, afraid of elections, prefer coups, and are driven by hate.

reds are democratic, pro-election, despise coups and are driven by love.

Hahaha, best joke-post of the day.

Driven by love, haha, I almost spat my lunch out.

not a joke.

ask any red shirt, they will openly confess their love for Thaksin.

ask a yellow and they will openly express their hate for Thaksin.

[Supernova]

So bottom line:

> The "Reds" want elections, the "Yellows" dont.

> Would it be accurate to therefore define the Reds as Democratic, and the Yellows as Undemocratic?

> That being the case, why dont they define these political movements as such, and get away from non-politically-descriptive terminology dealing with colors. It would clarify things for most casual observers, and place things into a clearer political context.

I think both sides want elections if they know they can win.

I'm not so sure about that, it depends who you talk to I guess. But the general consensus amongst Thais (I've spoken to) seem to be that the yellow shirts prefer a more archaic style of rule. That is, clinging on to the 'old ways' of governing, which just doesn't cut it in the modern world.

Change = Progress...

But it seems the 'elite' are doing everything in their power to resist this change. Thaksin brought about sweeping changes (for better or worse) and what happened? He was eliminated. To me, the current political crisis isn't about Thaksin, but has to do with the 'elite' not willing to accept the fact that change is inevitable. It's bound to happen sooner rather than later.

[rixalex]

Todays PR-trick: pretend to be a complete ignoramus, get educated by one of the least credible users around and then become his opinionated twin in the debate.

Pretend?! You sure about that TAWP?

[noithip]

A nonsensical post containing a fictitious letter has been deleted.

or http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/07/12...es_30008521.php

[Supernova]

It fairer to say that yellow shirts are pro monarchy, in its purest sence. While the red shirts are more pro a Thaskin dictatorship. While the Democrats are pro democracy and currently lead a coalition government. I hope that helps.

I think you've got it all wrong...

The yellow shirts are pro-military, while the reds are pro-democracy oriented. The yellow shirts favor an appointed Government over elected MPs... I hardly consider this a democracy. Thaksin = dictatorship? LOL. Where did you get that from? Not that support either group being a 'neutral' myself, but I think that's a pretty bold statement with little substance to it.

It's not as stark as that. The PAD's (yellow-shirts) announcement of the "New Politics" is over a year old now and it talks about a number of things to do with the political situation at that time (during Somchai Wongsawat's tenure as PM). Regarding the mixed representational system they said ( 8 Sep 08):

"The proposal on the PAD stage of a 70:30 ratio of public representatives to elected representatives is merely an example of how the old-style politics should be replaced and is open to discussion. It is not a fixed formula advocated by the PAD. We are ready for a discussion from all sides on designing new politics and will respect the majority decision for new politics that is ethical, moral, and more representative of the varied social sectors to go in line with the lifestyles and culture of Thailand but still upholding democracy under a Constitutional Monarchy."

The full statement is (or was) at http://pad.vfly.net/en/27/pads-announcement-on-new-politics/

I don't know who it was that spoke about 70:30 on the stage.

Under the banner of the New Politics Party (Pak Karnmueangmai), PAD will contest the next elections. Their idea of a partly appointed government made up of exemplary citizens and honest elected members seems to be a pipe-dream. They do say they will increase the proportion of women in government.

You certainly hit the mark with this one...

Thanks for clarifying this, hopefully others will have a better understanding of the PAD's objectives.

[noithip]

ask any red shirt, they will openly confess their love for Thaksin.

OOOPS! So it's not their love for democracy then?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I never considered myself pro-Thaksin. I have critisised thaksin a number of times on various issues in the past.

I'm with you....NEVER have been 'pro-Thaksin'...but absolutely believe in democracy and the right of citizens to elect someone without coups and reprisals....

And, doc, are we only allowed to post without warnings if we agree with YOUR 'team"?

I seem to think that your comment about Thaksin was a bit political???? Doncha think?

believe it or not, I don't have a team. I have however, had a gutful of the one eyed Thaksinites on this forum. Perhaps you missed them due to the Nelson syndrome you may well suffer.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I'm confused by the heading of this article.

Who are these Red Shirts?

Certainly an odd way of describing political movements.

I understand some of them support the previous prime Minister, but what is their political context?

A local told me that one side of this political problem wants to abolish elections and simply appoint legislators, while the other side wants to have elections.

The side that doesn't want elections....why? Is it because they cannot win them or are they merely anti-democratic?

Where do these "Red Shirts" fit in, other than the association by some of them with the previous Prime Minister? Are they the ones wanting elections or do they want to appoint legislators without elections?

Under instructions from the child bride again ? " Who are these Red Shirts " You certainly had a good idea who was who quite recently. Early onset of Altzheimers ?

[dukkha]

The Heavens have opened, what a bummer to have your red shirt stick to you....

[Scott]

I had a red shirt and got caught in the rain. It turned pink. I've been that way ever since.

It must be Thaksin's fault!