Bathroom Water Heater Issues

[ZZZ]

zzz: which part of my unit do you think may be a valve, to me none of it looks what is in the drawing?

Ah so "bushings" are what in the US we call washers? The black rubber things that help to provide a secure seal? I'll check them.

Sheryl, it looks like you could have two problems, one is the poor flow and the other that the heater shuts of when the cold water is on. I suggest you do following:

First check if the small valve on the input side of the heater is fully open. The valve is located on top of the fitting "B" in the attached picture. It looks like a nut with a screw in it. I'm not sure how the valve works but most likely you will need to line up the screw head in the water flow direction to get maximum flow. What you need to do is to make sure that electric power is disconnected, water pressure is on and the hot water tap in the tub is on, then slowly turn the valve with a screw driver until maximum flow.

If that did not fix the problem, try this:

(Have a big bucket ready)

1. Make sure the power and water supply to the unit is off.

2. Remove the flexible hose at connection marked "A" in the attached picture.

3. Let the water drain out.

3. Have someone slowly open the water supply to the unit. If there is water from hose A it's all connected correct. If there is water coming out from the heater where the hose was connected, the unit has been connected backwards and the two flexible hoses (A and D) should be switched around.

4. If it was connected correct, fully open the water supply and check so the flow looks good.

5. If the flow is good, check the rubber washer in connection A, if it looks like the orifice is big enough for a good flow reconnect A.

6. If the flow was bad, open the connection in the other end of flexible hose A and check the rubber washer.

7. If the flow is still bad, sorry but your flow problem is inside the wall

With the power and water mains off:

To clean the input filter; open connection C, remove filter screen and clean, reconnect.

To check the flow trough the heater:

1. Open the bottom connection of flexible hose D.

2. Have someone open the water supply to the heater slowly up to maximum and check so the flow from the bottom of hose D is good.

3. If the flow is low, open the connection at D and check the rubber washer.

4. If the flow is still low, some problem in the heater, get a new heater.

5. If all good, reconnect hose D, open the water supply to maximum, with the electric power off, open the hot water in the tub or shower, let the water drain until all the air has been expelled from the heater. Check if the flow is good.

3. If the flow is still low you need to check the connection where the hot water is coming in to the tub, if accessible, if no problem there it must be in the wall.

4. If the flow is good, switch on the power and check if it's working.

[fremmel]

What I'm taking to be the heating elements are the leads coming out beneath the large copper cylinder, above the connection zzz labeled D. If the water flow troubleshooting points to the heater being the problem then you'll probably need to either get an appliance repair tech to make a house call or uninstall the heater and take it to an appliance repair shop. I don't suppose there's a Stiebel authorized shop around anywhere, is there? If they can get it working like it should but it still cuts off before you can mix enough cold water to be comfortable then you can try having them unhook one or two of the elements so it doesn't heat the water so hot.

[Sheryl]

Bless you LB and zzz, instructions are clear and I'm enthused to try. The only limiting factor is that I think (not sure) the heater may be connected to the main power supply rather than on a circuit and if so I will have to disconnect the power by taking off wires as opposed to just shutting off a circuit (can't shut off all power as then the water pump for whole house won't work and this is up on 2nd floor, no pump power = no water).

Can you walk me through how to disconnect the wires safely (I know to turn off the main power first, of course.)? Because even if experimentation leads me to think it is on a circuit and that I know which one I wouldn't want to risk being wrong on that. The unit does not have any sort of light to indicate when power is on. So I think best course is to shut off main power supply, disconnect the wires which power the unit, then turn power back on and proceed with the various steps suggested. I am suspecting it is the 2 white wires in the upper right corner?

Mucho thanks

[ZZZ]

Bless you LB and zzz, instructions are clear and I'm enthused to try. The only limiting factor is that I think (not sure) the heater may be connected to the main power supply rather than on a circuit and if so I will have to disconnect the power by taking off wires as opposed to just shutting off a circuit (can't shut off all power as then the water pump for whole house won't work and this is up on 2nd floor, no pump power = no water).

Can you walk me through how to disconnect the wires safely (I know to turn off the main power first, of course.)? Because even if experimentation leads me to think it is on a circuit and that I know which one I wouldn't want to risk being wrong on that. The unit does not have any sort of light to indicate when power is on. So I think best course is to shut off main power supply, disconnect the wires which power the unit, then turn power back on and proceed with the various steps suggested. I am suspecting it is the 2 white wires in the upper right corner?

Mucho thanks

I would advice against doing this as water and bare cables is a bad mix. The best would be if you could find the breaker for the power line leading to the heater or switch of the main breaker for the time it will take to check the heater. Maybe get an electrician to do the checking with you telling him what to do. If you do the main breaker make sure no one can switch it on while you are working on the heater.

Anyway, just in case you decide to do it yourself. The power is coming in to the heater from the two lead wire marked "1" on the drawing. You need to follow these two wires and disconnect them, to me it looks like they are connected to the white plastic contact strip in the lower right corner, it looks like it is the two wires labeled "2", one black and one grey.

MAKE SURE THE MAIN POWER IS OFF BEFORE DOING THIS AND EVEN SO BE CAREFUL AND DONT TOUCH THE BARE WIRES. MAKE SURE NO ONE CAN SWITCH ON THE POWER WHILE YOU ARE WORKING ON THE HEATER.

To get the wire out of the way you should remove the wire from the clamp holding it to the heater and secure it away from the heater where there may be a lot of water while testing it. Make sure the wire is secured and make sure that no one can accidentally touch the bare leads while you work on the unit. Make sure the wire is off the floor or anywhere else that could get wet in the process of checking the heater.

MAKE SURE YOU SWITCH OFF THE MAIN POWER BEFORE YOU RECONNECT THE WIRES.

Again I suggest you get an electrician to do all this or at least to locate the breaker for the heater.

Edited October 13, 2009 by ZZZ

[Sheryl]

Thanks. If I am correct that it is hooked to the main power then the breaker for it is the breaker for all the power i.e. I can turn it off for some parts of the suggested tests but would have to have it on for the parts that involve running water or else the water pump will be down.

I would GLADLY have an electrician do all of this if there was anything approaching a competent electrician to be found. Trust me when I tell you that there is far more chance of death or electrical fire if I bring any of the local so-called "chang fai" into this matter. They truly would not bother to turn off the power befopre disconnecting or reconnecting the wires. And they'd stand in a puddle, smoking a cigarette, while at it, ignoring my concern with a "mai ben rai'. They know vastly less than I do about electricity and by now you will have noticed that that's next to nothing! However I do know a fair amount about cardiac arrest from ventricular fibrillation and most definitely do not wish to experience it so will be most careful.

I am in Cambodia on work assignment till the weekend so when you don't hear from me for a few days don't fear I've electrocuted myself. Will post the outcome sometime next week.

thanks again

[a99az]

When I lived in Spain we use the sun to heat our water. When we bought the house in Thailand for some odd reason we ended up with an electric water heater, now I am going to take it out and use the sun to heat the water, so cheap and easy to do.

[longball53098]

I will suggest this option to make the tests.

If you can identify the cable that is the power cable for the heater at the breaker panel location this end of the cable could be disconnected.

Obvious care and safety must be observed by shutting down the main power input and then carefully removing the hot and neutral wires from the terminated locations. Carefully wrap the bare ends with some black electrical tape to insulate them from accidentally touching anything. When you are sure all is ready for the test phases then the main power can be switched on again and no power will get to the heater. When all the water testing is completed return to the panel and switch off the power, remove the tape and reconnect the wires to the term points they were on, ensure all is tight and then the power can be switched on again.

As we talked before if this is too much for you or the hired help, DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS unless you're sure! Get an experienced person to do this. You have lived with this issue for 10 years I think you can wait to find a sparky that can do this.

[Sheryl]

I will suggest this option to make the tests.

If you can identify the cable that is the power cable for the heater at the breaker panel location this end of the cable could be disconnected.

Sorry I haven't a clue as how to do this. Even verifying whether or not it is in a circuit vs (as I think) on the main power, all I can think of is to test turning the circuits off one by one to see if the heater still works i.e. generates hot water and not sure that I am comfortable risking the accuracy of that method. Some 15 years ago or so I replaced a wall socket that I was sure I had shut off the power to via the relevant circuit only to get a shock which sent me clear across the room and I haven't forgotten it ! Still not sure how it was possible since I know I had the circuit that whole room was on turned off, but obviously it was, leaving me very hesitant to rely on the shutting off of individual circuits as a precaution.

As we talked before if this is too much for you or the hired help, DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS unless you're sure! Get an experienced person to do this. You have lived with this issue for 10 years I think you can wait to find a sparky that can do this.

Problem is that I have tried for 13 years to find a real sparky willing/able to come out to Prachinburi (as for sure there are none already here) with absolutely no success. I am not actually all that far away (2 hours from Bkk) but the kinds of things I need done are small jobs. And from what I see on other threads people are finding it hard to find a "real" sparky even in Bangkok, at least for simple residential needs. Open to any and all suggestions/recommendations on that front!!

With regard to zzz's first suggested test, how about I do this:

1. turn off the main power supply

2. disconnect hose at point A, let it drain out, leave it dangling down towards inside of tub or perhaps hooked up to bucket

3. turn on the tap, which at this point will not produce a flow of water since water pump will be without power.

4. turn on the main power again, at which point the water will flow

5. peer in from the doorway, staying well away from the tub and wall where unit is mounted and see if (1) any water coming from the heater itself as opposed to just the hose and (2) how good the flow is

6. then run back to the main power switch and turn it off.

to my logic this should be safe, or am I overlooking something?

For your second test I actually do not understand why dangerous to have the power on as it seems to me no different than the heater's normal operation except that the output hose will be emptying straight into the tub rather than going through the water pipes in the wall???? In any case I can set it up with power off, turn on power and look at it from a distance and then again switch power off, sound reasonable?

Likewise LB I don't really understand the danger of having power on for the test you suggested. I can easily turn off the power before disconnecting the hoses and attaching them to each other. But once that is done, what is the problem to have the power back on? There will be no water flowing through the heater so nothing to trip it on, wouldn't this be the same situation vis-a-vis the heater as when the water is off? I can for good measure switch in the water before turning main power back on and, as above, watch the result from a distance. Make sense?

(I am not expecting a 100% guarantee of safety from you guys just confirmation that my logic makes sense. No lawsuits, promise!)

Checking the rubber washers and input filter no problem, can do that with the main power supply off

[Sheryl]

When I lived in Spain we use the sun to heat our water. When we bought the house in Thailand for some odd reason we ended up with an electric water heater, now I am going to take it out and use the sun to heat the water, so cheap and easy to do.

I have certainly thought of this, wish I had done so when the house was built. In addition to avoiding all the mechanical hassles it would save $$ on electric bill.

But I don't think it is so easy to do once house already built. Problem being not the setting up of a tank that is solar heated outside, but rather piping it into the house. Which as far as I have been able to imagine would require tearing up walls and floors...or else adding new pipes that would be visible and unsightly....?

[longball53098]

I will suggest this option to make the tests.

If you can identify the cable that is the power cable for the heater at the breaker panel location this end of the cable could be disconnected.

Sorry I haven't a clue as how to do this. Even verifying whether or not it is in a circuit vs (as I think) on the main power, all I can think of is to test turning the circuits off one by one to see if the heater still works i.e. generates hot water and not sure that I am comfortable risking the accuracy of that method. Some 15 years ago or so I replaced a wall socket that I was sure I had shut off the power to via the relevant circuit only to get a shock which sent me clear across the room and I haven't forgotten it ! Still not sure how it was possible since I know I had the circuit that whole room was on turned off, but obviously it was, leaving me very hesitant to rely on the shutting off of individual circuits as a precaution.

As we talked before if this is too much for you or the hired help, DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS unless you're sure! Get an experienced person to do this. You have lived with this issue for 10 years I think you can wait to find a sparky that can do this.

Problem is that I have tried for 13 years to find a real sparky willing/able to come out to Prachinburi (as for sure there are none already here) with absolutely no success. I am not actually all that far away (2 hours from Bkk) but the kinds of things I need done are small jobs. And from what I see on other threads people are finding it hard to find a "real" sparky even in Bangkok, at least for simple residential needs. Open to any and all suggestions/recommendations on that front!!

With regard to zzz's first suggested test, how about I do this:

1. turn off the main power supply

2. disconnect hose at point A, let it drain out, leave it dangling down towards inside of tub or perhaps hooked up to bucket

3. turn on the tap, which at this point will not produce a flow of water since water pump will be without power.

4. turn on the main power again, at which point the water will flow

5. peer in from the doorway, staying well away from the tub and wall where unit is mounted and see if (1) any water coming from the heater itself as opposed to just the hose and (2) how good the flow is

6. then run back to the main power switch and turn it off.

to my logic this should be safe, or am I overlooking something?

For your second test I actually do not understand why dangerous to have the power on as it seems to me no different than the heater's normal operation except that the output hose will be emptying straight into the tub rather than going through the water pipes in the wall???? In any case I can set it up with power off, turn on power and look at it from a distance and then again switch power off, sound reasonable?

Likewise LB I don't really understand the danger of having power on for the test you suggested. I can easily turn off the power before disconnecting the hoses and attaching them to each other. But once that is done, what is the problem to have the power back on? There will be no water flowing through the heater so nothing to trip it on, wouldn't this be the same situation vis-a-vis the heater as when the water is off? I can for good measure switch in the water before turning main power back on and, as above, watch the result from a distance. Make sense?

(I am not expecting a 100% guarantee of safety from you guys just confirmation that my logic makes sense. No lawsuits, promise!)

Checking the rubber washers and input filter no problem, can do that with the main power supply off

Sheryl, in my test scenario I would have you shut down power while in the heater unit disconnecting any water connections and potentially getting the unit wet and or yourself and coming in contact with a live component.

Once the test hose connections are made I would say the power could be switched on again to operate the pump and perform the flow tests. Just stay clear of the heater in case of a spraying leak and touching something live with 240volts.

Once the water flow tests are complete then power off again for the reconnect of the hoses.

It sounds like you respect the electricity and are smart enough to stay away at the correct times,,,,,just be very cautious and remember when the power is on and what can and cannot be touched safely.

As you said I am only trying to help and take no responsibility for any mistakes or errors in my suggestions. I am not there to actually try this and see if there is a flaw in my process.

Happy testing!

[offset]

Hi Sheryl I am having a house built in Prachinburi at the moment the builder as not got as far as doing electrics yet but when he does I will see if he is any good if he is would you like me to get his telephone number for you or I could ask the the family if they know a good electrician but I would not guarantee they would know a what a good electrician was

Just as a suggestion could you not get a normal electrician to put an isolator switch in between the mains and you water heater (or would you not trust them to even do this for you) then you could play with the heater as much as you want safely

[ZZZ]

Sheryl, you can do as you suggest, just be very careful to not connect/disconnect the pipes while the power is on.

My concern is that when you switch on the power there will be high pressure from the pump with water going everywhere. If you have a valve somewhere between the pump and the water heater it would be an idea to close this when you switch off the power and then slowly open it again when the power is switched on so you don't get a sudden burst of water.

As you are doing this kind of things you really should get yourself a voltage tester to make sure there is no power in the wires you are working on. The cheapest and easiest to use look like a small screw driver. Just touch the live wire with the tip of the screw driver and and then touch the metal end at the red tip of the screw driver with your finger, if the wire is live the center of the screw driver will glow orange. Remember to always test both wires as one will be live and the other neutral, only the live wire will make the screw driver glow.

[bangkokumpalumpa]

this sounds like the system has been set up for a first floor install.

the reason I say this is the fact that when you turn on the cold it shuts off the heater, this is operating flow switch, from reading you say that the heater has always had a low flow rate.

ok to give you an example, the little "bum shower" units we have here in Thailand can at times strip the skin off (I always test before use) inside these units is a washer with a very small hole in it that you can leave in for high presure or remove for low presure sytems.

becasue there doesnt seem to be a valve that you can adjust then there is a good chance that your install man spent time wondering why they gave him all these different washers. he then put one in with the small hole and binned the rest.

at a guess I would say that there is a inline restrictor before the pressure and flow valves. this needs to be removed or inlarged to allow the correct flow of water. here is what would happen if you have the inline restrictor for high presure in a system that is medium to low presure.

using just the hot you will have hot water but not a high flow rate.

by turning on any other tap the flow rate will drop to a level where the flow sensor will turn off the heater.

the reason is the presure drops just a little and that means there is not enough to push the required volume of water through the restrictor to allow the flow valve to keep the heater turned on.

I see that people are saying to test the flow rate of the water that enters the heater, well it should as a rule be about the same as the cold water, unless there has been a major mistake in the pipe work, I dont think that this is the problem ( I could be wrong). but if you want to test it out make sure that you turn off the breaker to the unit, if it does not have one then hunt the man down that installed it and kill him slowly, if it is on the same breaker as your pump then kill him even slower.

if all else fails get someone that knows what they are doing to fix it hahahahahahahahahaha

but first have a look for anything in the pipes that is smaller than the pipe is, if so make it bigger!

after looking at the picture closer, have a look at the right side where there is a brass piece that somes out of the tank, it is the pices where the silver pipe conects from the presure sensor. ok there looks to be a nut head there, this could be a restricture valve, you can also look on the end of this brass piece, far right there may be a screw/nut for adjusting. more than likely the latter.

is it possible to get a photo from the right of the unit?? might as well add one from the top as well.

this unit looks to be of very good quality so I would expect to have an adjuster some where on it for safety reasons, ie to avoid high presure high volume hot water as all hotwater systems exit there water as low pressure as a rule, hence the use of an Ajax valve on a hot water tank.

hope this is of some help

Marc

[offset]

Hi Sheryl I am having a house built in Prachinburi at the moment the builder as not got as far as doing electrics yet but when he does I will see if he is any good if he is would you like me to get his telephone number for you or I could ask the the family if they know a good electrician but I would not guarantee they would know a what a good electrician was

Just as a suggestion could you not get a normal electrician to put an isolator switch in between the mains and you water heater (or would you not trust them to even do this for you) then you could play with the heater as much as you want safely

Ohhhh are you in for it!!!!!

By all means if you find a good electrician in the province let me know but I have scoured the province from on end to the other for over a decade and I really, really don't think there is one.

I strongly recommend that you bring in a Bangkok firm/contractor for the wiring and guarantee that while it will cost more initially it will be much cheaper than what you will otherwise pay in repairs, shorted out appliances etc, not to mention aggravation.

I would also recommend the same re the plumbing if you are wanting anything other than the typical rural Thai set up. For example, if you want a bath tub that you actually intend to take a bath in, otherwise they will install the tub OK but the plumbing will not be set uop to handle actually filling it with water (it is not unusual for Thais to buy a tub when they only intend to take showers apparently a status thing; there are some specific plumbing things that need to be done when it will be actually used as a bath which are automatriocally done in the west but would not be familiar to/occur to the average rural Thai contractor).

And if you'd like a description of all else that can go wrong that you will not know until later , PM me But the wiring & plumbing are the biggies

Nice to hear from another Prachin resident was beginning to think I was the only one!

Thanks for the advice I am in an all in price situation I guess not good but so far everything that I have asked to be done has been with no problems (other than language but we get there in the end) I am paying on work done so it had better be done correctly or he will not get paid he also knows that I am very fussy he is also a friend of the family and I have seen a couple of houses he has built in a western style they look OK we are not having a bath fittedso that is one problem out of the way

There is another TV member from Prachin but I forget his name at the moment

[Sheryl]

if you want to test it out make sure that you turn off the breaker to the unit, if it does not have one then hunt the man down that installed it and kill him slowly, if it is on the same breaker as your pump then kill him even slower.

It has no breaker. It is connected to the main power supply requiring that I shut off everything, including the water pump, to shut it off. And slow murder does not begin to approach what the idiot contractor who built the house deserves, and not just because of this particular problem....

Now for update. I did several of the tests suggested and:

1. Hoses A and D are in correctly, not backwards.

2. Problem definitely not from washers, in fact hiose connections didn't even have one.

3. Water flow into the heater (Hose A) is very forceful. Volume might not fully equal what comes out of cold tap at tub since the connecting hose is smaller caliber than I am sure the pipes in the wall are (see below for better shot of these) but it is a very forceful spout, don't think this is the problem.

4. Located and cleaned the filter, it was rather clogged as was inevitable since until now I had no idea where it was or even that there was one. Cleaning it made only small difference tho, also not surprising since problem has been there from day one.

5. Inlet valve checked and fully open, so also not the problem.

Now for what makes no sense to me:

When I disconnected the outflow hose (D) from the wall, leaving it connected to the heater and turned the power back on, I was expecting that either (1) there would be no water coming out since hot water tap still turned off (assuming that the hot water tap has to be turned on to send water through the unit; I am not really sure at what point in things the water tap comes into play) or (2) there would be a flow of hot water since, disconnected from the wall and the tap, there was now no flow resistance (assuming that the weater tap comes into play only in allowing or not allowing an outlet for the heated water).

To my surprise there was instead a low flow of cold water -- lower flow and pressure than the incoming pipe has by far but maybe a little more than I get from the hot tap when turned on. It did NOT heat up with time. So somehow, with both taps off, the incoming cold water entering via Hose A was getting over to the outflow hose D even though both taps were turned off, but either without going through the heater or with the heater elements not working. I tried turning on the cold tap in the tub to see if that affected things, no change.

It is not that any of the variosu steps have interfered with the heater working, since once I reconnected Hose D to the wall and turned h the hot water tap on, the water heats well (almost scalding in fact). I really can't make sense of any of this, can any of you?

I have not yet done the first test suggested by LB, will tomorrow.

As requested by Marc, here is photo of the right side of the unit, best I could do as it is a bit cramped space.

And also a better shot of the area that I think you are referring to as having the pressurer sensor.

Lastly a shot of the faucet connection just in case this adds anything. I am still confused as to how exactly the faucet taps affect the flow of water throguh the heater.

[cyb]

this sounds like the system has been set up for a first floor install.

the reason I say this is the fact that when you turn on the cold it shuts off the heater, this is operating flow switch, from reading you say that the heater has always had a low flow rate.

ok to give you an example, the little "bum shower" units we have here in Thailand can at times strip the skin off (I always test before use) inside these units is a washer with a very small hole in it that you can leave in for high presure or remove for low presure sytems.

becasue there doesnt seem to be a valve that you can adjust then there is a good chance that your install man spent time wondering why they gave him all these different washers. he then put one in with the small hole and binned the rest.

at a guess I would say that there is a inline restrictor before the pressure and flow valves. this needs to be removed or inlarged to allow the correct flow of water. here is what would happen if you have the inline restrictor for high presure in a system that is medium to low presure.

using just the hot you will have hot water but not a high flow rate.

by turning on any other tap the flow rate will drop to a level where the flow sensor will turn off the heater.

the reason is the presure drops just a little and that means there is not enough to push the required volume of water through the restrictor to allow the flow valve to keep the heater turned on.

I see that people are saying to test the flow rate of the water that enters the heater, well it should as a rule be about the same as the cold water, unless there has been a major mistake in the pipe work, I dont think that this is the problem ( I could be wrong). but if you want to test it out make sure that you turn off the breaker to the unit, if it does not have one then hunt the man down that installed it and kill him slowly, if it is on the same breaker as your pump then kill him even slower.

if all else fails get someone that knows what they are doing to fix it hahahahahahahahahaha

but first have a look for anything in the pipes that is smaller than the pipe is, if so make it bigger!

after looking at the picture closer, have a look at the right side where there is a brass piece that somes out of the tank, it is the pices where the silver pipe conects from the presure sensor. ok there looks to be a nut head there, this could be a restricture valve, you can also look on the end of this brass piece, far right there may be a screw/nut for adjusting. more than likely the latter.

is it possible to get a photo from the right of the unit?? might as well add one from the top as well.

this unit looks to be of very good quality so I would expect to have an adjuster some where on it for safety reasons, ie to avoid high presure high volume hot water as all hotwater systems exit there water as low pressure as a rule, hence the use of an Ajax valve on a hot water tank.

hope this is of some help

Marc

I wish i had seen this thread before Marc is correct, We had this problem with the same type of heater in two properties. The plumber we engaged took about an hour on each to rectify it and explained that the water was restricted due to...... You've guessed it a flow washer of the wrong size. He did not have one so just enlarged the hole in the original. Bingo everything fine after that.

Edited October 18, 2009 by cyb

[ZZZ]

Sheryl, disconnecting at "D" will be the same thing as opening the hot water tap at the tub so you should get a normal flow of hot water coming out from "D". It's strange that you only get cold water but then get hot water out of the tap when you reconnect "D", this makes no sense.

For the low flow I still think it may have something to do with the flexible hoses. When you checked for washers did you completely remove both the hoses from the heater and the wall and checked both ends? I have never seen these hoses without rubber washers before as the would normally leak without them. The picture attached show two washers, the one on the right caused a very low flow out of my heater, the left washer is the right size.

Another cause of the low flow could be the inner diameter of the hoses, it should be about the same size as the washer on the left hand side.

When you do the test suggested by LB you should do it twice, once with each of the flexible hoses to confirm there is no blockage in any of them,

When you checked the inlet valve "B" did you just open it to max or did you turn it around checking if you could increase and decrease the flow, you need to be careful doing this as you need the power on and connection "D" open and will work with a screw driver near the wires.

[bangkokumpalumpa]

ok the area that I asked you to take photos of seems to have the sensor on the top of the pic, but the part I am interested in is the brass unit itself.

I think that if you removed the brass cap at the end you would find a spring and a set of seals, this I think is a simple form of step down pressure regulator.

on a normal system you would expect to find washers, but this does infact look like a well made system, so I think that they have installed a regulator as opposed to a restrictor.

I was hoping to see a screw and nut that would addjust the spring tension.

what you could try is to

1st check the fitting fot the pipe that exits this brass piece, remove and check for restrictor.

2nd make sure you have some PTFE tape, the white plumbers tape

3rd remove the large plug/bolt on the end of the unit,

4th take photos

5th remove the internals of this system and lay them out in the order that they come out.

6th take photos

7th put them back

8th post the photos here

9th find a large heavy blunt instrument

10th hunt the installer down and batter him slowely from the feet up

11th sit make with a beer and enjoy the pain and stress that he is feeling

12th when the noise gets to much or the beers have run out go home, with a warm feeling knowing that you will come back tomorrow after your cold shower!

what I think there may be is a shim system, spacers, that increase the tension on a spring, this means that there has to be enough pressure to push the spring to allow it to move a seal back far enough to allow the water to exit to the pipes.

is this thing fused???? of so what is the rating on to fuse

also can you take a look at the wire and tell me the size, it should be printed on the outside about every meter

ok good luck and remember to turn off the electric when working on these things!!!!!

[Sheryl]

Sheryl, disconnecting at "D" will be the same thing as opening the hot water tap at the tub so you should get a normal flow of hot water coming out from "D". It's strange that you only get cold water but then get hot water out of the tap when you reconnect "D", this makes no sense.

Nor to me. But this is what happened. ????? Makes me think there may be something stranger and more complex in the way the thing is hooked up altho can't offhand think what...

For the low flow I still think it may have something to do with the flexible hoses. When you checked for washers did you completely remove both the hoses from the heater and the wall and checked both ends? I have never seen these hoses without rubber washers before as the would normally leak without them.

Another cause of the low flow could be the inner diameter of the hoses, it should be about the same size as the washer on the left hand side.

When you do the test suggested by LB you should do it twice, once with each of the flexible hoses to confirm there is no blockage in any of them,

When you checked the inlet valve "B" did you just open it to max or did you turn it around checking if you could increase and decrease the flow, you need to be careful doing this as you need the power on and connection "D" open and will work with a screw driver near the wires.

Checked all, no washers. As to diameter of the flexible hoses don't know but they are the same kind and size of flexible hoses that one commonly sees connecting faucets, toilets etc to water supply in Cambodia. Also, the incoming and outgoing hoses are identical in diameter yet big difference in flow out vs in so something goes on in between that greatly reduces it.

As I am tied up today doing battle with a different set of house issues (Saga of replacing the built in kitchen furniture AKA me vs. Index/Winner changs AKA "mai dai" vs "you can and you must" ) it will probably be tomorrow before I do LB's test.

Re the inlet valve this is something I forgot to explain/describe. I am not sure that the valve we are talking about actually is a flow regulator. What the brass inlet valve proved to be is a 3 way connector with a ball valve in the middle which is pretty much either all on or all off and seems to serve to simply shut one of the 3 ends off. One of the ends is a female as opposed to male adaptor covered by a plug and is the side to which the valve is off since the hose needs a male adaptor. In other words I think the point of the device is simply to allow for affixing the input hose to either a male or female connector and also to filter out sediment, and that the valve is just there to shut off whichever end is then not used. It does not seem to offer the kind of flow regulation you are talking about, which in turn raises the question of whether somewhere else in the unit there is one that I still haven't identified or tried adjusting. I hope so as this offers the best chance of a solution I can manage on my own. What do you think?

[Mrjlh]

From http://www.stiebeleltronasia.com/servicesdetail.php?id=5

5. Breaker must be at proper size eg. For unit of 6000,8000, or 12000 watts, breaker must be at size of 30,40,or 60 amp consequently.

VERY IMPORTANT POINT always overlooked!

Make sure your wiring size is large enough to hand the load! I.e.: 8KV load requires at least a 6mm cross section on both the "Hot and Neutral" plus the ground (earth).

You may have a "large breaker" but the wire has to match the load too. I've noticed most house wires here are only 4mm. Look at the wire code that's printed on the outside shielding to make that determination. A two wire cable @ 4mm will say "2 X 4mm" or maybe it says 2 x 2.5 which is 2 wires at 2.5mm dia. the "mm" is not always printed. It easy to look up the coding and wire load sizes on the Internet to learn more. A single wire will be 1 X 4 or 1 X 2.5, etc.

Edited October 19, 2009 by Mrjlh

[Sheryl]

ok the area that I asked you to take photos of seems to have the sensor on the top of the pic, but the part I am interested in is the brass unit itself.

I think that if you removed the brass cap at the end you would find a spring and a set of seals, this I think is a simple form of step down pressure regulator....

what you could try is to

1st check the fitting fot the pipe that exits this brass piece, remove and check for restrictor.

2nd make sure you have some PTFE tape, the white plumbers tape

3rd remove the large plug/bolt on the end of the unit

Marc, can you clarify what brass unit you are referring to. Is it the one in the center of the second picture in my post?

And is the plug/bolt you mean the one the thing with the yellow color around it? (Whioch is actually rather small, size of about an average screw head) ??

is this thing fused???? of so what is the rating on to fuse

also can you take a look at the wire and tell me the size, it should be printed on the outside about every meter

Not fused as far as I can tell.

Do you mean the incoming power wires? Not sure of size but think it is from main supply rather than circuit. Anyhow here is what is written on the unit plus a shot of the incoming wire:

9th find a large heavy blunt instrument

10th hunt the installer down and batter him slowely from the feet up

Actually much too good for him. I have described in this forum but a small portion of his crimes against humanity....

[Sheryl]

From http://www.stiebeleltronasia.com/servicesdetail.php?id=5

5. Breaker must be at proper size eg. For unit of 6000,8000, or 12000 watts, breaker must be at size of 30,40,or 60 amp consequently.

VERY IMPORTANT POINT always overlooked!

Make sure your wiring size is large enough to hand the load! I.e.: 8KV load requires at least a 6mm cross section on both the "Hot and Neutral" plus the ground (earth).

You may have a "large breaker" but the wire has to match the load too. I've noticed most house wires here are only 4mm. Look at the wire code that's printed on the outside shielding to make that determination. A two wire cable @ 4mm will say "2 X 4mm" or maybe it says 2 x 2.5 which is 2 wires at 2.5mm dia. the "mm" is not always printed. It easy to look up the coding and wire load sizes on the Internet to learn more. A single wire will be 1 X 4 or 1 X 2.5, etc.

I knew when it was being installed that this would be an issue and that is why I told them to put it to the main power supply rather than any of the circuits. Main power supply and main breaker = 30 A. As the incoming wires have been painted over many times I can't read the number on them but they are thick, as thick as any I have anyplace in the house. The main power supply is on a large stabilizer which trips when unable to maintain adequate incoming voltage, that will happen if I have say 2 a/cs on while running the hot water but otherwise not, also as mentioned the water gets plenty hot, so I don't think this is likely to be the problem.

[ZZZ]

There could be a few reasons for the water coming out cold from "D" when you did that test. If you had the cover off there could be some kind of breaker switching power of when the cover is of. The most likely reason is that as you switch on the power with "D" open the pressure will be low in the heater when the power comes on and the pressure sensor will then not apply power to the heater elements. Anyway this is not important as the test was to check the flow and it seems to confirm that the flow is good coming out from the wall, before the heater, and bad after going through the heater.

I still thing the flexible hoses are suspect. It would be good if you could 100% confirm that they are both good by connecting each one to the water outlet in the wall, or any other outlet in the house where they will fit, and check the flow. They look like they are a bit twisted in your picture so make sure you bend and twist them a bit when testing them to see if that makes a difference.

Like you say the inlet valve is a ball valve but even so it will not just be on or off, just a few degrees off could severely restrict the flow. You have to turn it around with the water pressure on and adjust for maximum flow, turn it all the way off and then on until you get the best flow.

Another thing you could do is to connect hose "A" to "D" and leave the connection at "A" open, this will reverse the flow trough the heater and flush out anything that could have been stuck in the heater during installation.

Edited October 19, 2009 by ZZZ

[Sheryl]

Thanks a lot, will try all of these & report back

The ball valve is in the 100% open position, I detached it altogether (had to to get enough visibility and room) and tested it extensively. I think it was so to begin with altho can't swear to it as I had fiddled with it a bit before realizing I needed to remove it so I could play with it in an area with more elbow room and better visibility.

[bangkokumpalumpa]

I cant seem to see any earth wire!!!!!

I can see two wires coming in to the unit, they are your phase and nuetral, do you have a third green wire???

if not then DO NOT USE THIS UNIT !!!!

ok this unit is 10 years old? ok it is doing well for its age, but it can blow an element and if that happens you could fry yourself BIG TIME in the shower!!!

ok there are a couple if things that are interesting here, the pipe on the right side, for some reason it has a larger fitting that is needed, this would be a very good place to start, I have just noticed this.

ok so try this for fun

1st the copper pipe on the right of your photos, remove it top and bottom and see what you can find, you should find washers in there as long as they are the same size as the pipe then go no further put it back together and ignor what I have just typed about the pipe.

ok that copper pipe on the right conects to a brass unit (with the silver pipe conected) that comes out of the heater tank, that was the brass unit I was talking about, if the above does not help then try what I suggested before, remove the bolt out of the end of the brass piece and photograph each stage of removal, this helps to refit things!!!

post the pics of what you find

I am very worried that I cant see an earth wire check for earth wires please!!!!

Edited October 19, 2009 by bangkokumpalumpa

[Mrjlh]

In regards to the wire size, everything will work. Water will still get hot and as long as the fuse size is correct, it won't trip when turned on.

What will happen is the "wire" will get overheated and burn up if it is undersize. It could also cause a major short within the house wiring. So when I speak of the wire size being incorrect, I talking about fire and electrical overload safety. This issue is greatly lacking here in Thailand. I've personally had to rewire two houses just for the "hot water heater".

And as someone mentioned earlier and gave really good advice, you need to run a "GREEN" ground (earth) from your heater to an outside grounded copper rod. I highly recommend you not use bare copper wire. There are many opinions about the length of the rod, but the longer and deeper the better.

I'd would not connect to the 12KW circuit. The 4mm wire commonly used will handle up to around 7300 watts safely.

Hope this helps you fix your problem.

[longball53098]

Well Sheryl you have been a busy one now haven't you. All kind of tips about this and that. I won't go in to the electrical side of this for now as it appears there is plenty of help on that side too.

You have had a bunch of good suggestions and it appears you have tried a few. I hope you can get back to this basic test i suggested before. I include a new picture and explanation as now with the new photos I can see that the input and out to the tub are actually crossed not that it matters much but I could not see that in the first photo.

All I was looking for was a simple flow test to eliminate the heater and validate that the water flow from supply to tub is normal both on the hot and cold sides of the mixer valve. I think my test will provide some more information.

Another thought came to mind and it involves the actual in the wall piping that the builder/plumber installed 10 years ago. Thai's love to make things easy and take short cuts. I made up a simple drawing of the pipes from the supply to the heater and tub. It is assumed that there are other connections to sinks and toilets and such. I did not see or pick up anything said that would indicate the heater supplies another sink or tub. So i am assuming the hot from the heater is only piped to the tub valve. Now with this in mind could it be???? that when the hot water valve at the tub is opened the supply gives enough pressure and flow to make nice hot water to the tub but when you open the cold side to start mixing in the cold that the method of connecting the pipes has now in affect caused a robbing of water flow/pressure to the heater and diverted it to the tub cold valve and the more you open this valve the more it slows the flow to the heater and eventually shutting down the heater?

So with this in mind I offer another possible test? Get a long hose and connect it somewhere outside that has really good cold pressure flow. Attach the output end to the input side of the heater. You will have to disconnect and cap off the supply of cold so no flow from the normal cold supply to heater.

Now with this new cold supply to the heater try the water heater to the tub and mixing in cold. Does anything change?

I hope this all makes sense. It is something I would try if it were my problem. See all attachments

[Sheryl]

Well, an interesting (and wet) few muggy hours doing the tests suggested by LB has yielded the following:

1. With the heater out of the equation, problem the same. i.e. still very low flow out of the hot tap (which at that point of course is cold water).

2. This holds true regardless of which flexible hose is used to set up the bypass. Again, I have checked these hoses at all ends, they have no washers, they are patent. I further checked them by attaching each one separately to the wall at the incoming point with end loose to check flow; both shoot the water out at cannonball speed and volume. It's not the hoses.

A surreal moment came when, after all of this, I hooked everything back up only to find that now both cold and hot water came out only in trickles, what the f$#^&?! However realized that the prior tests might have loosened up dirt or rust and sent in down into the faucet so checked the sediment filter at the aerator (or whatever it's called -- thing that controls spray of water from tub tap) and indeed it was blocked with huge gobs of dirt. Cleaned it and back to normal, strong flow from the cold, very low from the hot (but still heats fine).

I also completely removed the tap/faucet outlet from the wall to see what the flow is like with the taps out of the equation. Shut off water first of course then turned it back on for just a second, which is where the alreadty wet bathroom got even wetter. Strong flow from the cold tap, nothing at all from the hot, consistent with what I had reported yesterday i.e. the hot water heater shuts off in the absence of resisistance from the tap rather than running freely.

So to my understanding it is now clear that there is no problem with the heater, problem is in the pipes and, given the good flow in the incoming peipe both down at the tap and up where it enters the heater, the problem is somewhere in the pipe leading from the heater. Given this I have not bothered with various other steps suggested that have to do with the heater.

LB, your drawing of the water pipes is indeed how I understand it to be, and what you describe about the cold water being on causing the hot to shut off is also what I think happens, but even with the cold off, the flow of hot is very, very low, so something else is also wrong and is a problem unto itself even if it is not causing the other problem (altho I think may be connected i.e. since the hot flow is at such low pressure it is very easy for cold flow once turned on to obstruct it). So I have not, as yet, done the hose test. Also not sure it makes sense given that prior tests clearly point to a problem in the pipes leading from the heater.

Given all the dirt that went down into the tub tap filter after I did the initial test of hooking up I am wondering if that pipe is clogged with sediment. And if so, whether there is anyway to deal with this that does not entail tearing apart the wall????

One last thing I never mentioned but do not see what differnce it could make -- the hot and cold taps are reversed, that is to say the one that is actually cold reads "hot" and vice versa, but as far as I know this shouldn't matter and examining them they seem functionally identicial. ?

BTW LB the pipe you asked about in the pic is not a pipe, it is the shower curtain rod!

Bangkokl - there is no ground wire, from this or any other appliance in the house nor any of the sockets and the whole house was not grounded, a situation I have been struggling to rectify for years and which saga is even longer than the water heater one but won't bother with the details here, it is quite clear that I need a professional to resolve it and thanks to you & some others now have some leads on that and will turn my attention to it soon as the kitchen remodel and water heater battles are over. (Oh the joys of home ownership!)

[Sheryl]

Wait, my water-logged brain started working again and occurred to me that what I should do (after disconnecting heater and plugging off the incoming cold tap) is use a hose to shoot water into the pipe from up where it connects to the heater with the tap open and, if that meets resistance, then with the tap removed altogether (plugging closed the other side). Make sense? Will take some doing since this is all on the second floor but with soem ingenuity and a very long hose should be possible.

[Sheryl]

Stupid me, just realized that since I have a good flow of water coming in via the cold water peipe, all I need do is exactly what I did before using the flexible hoses with heater out of the loop, except remove the tap so there is noweher for dirt to get stuck. And if that fails, do it in reverse i.e. connect down at the tub taps and let it shoot out the wall where it would notmally connect to the heater, etc.

this is what comes of battling the IRS, kitchen re-modelers and the hot water problem all at once...!

Anyhow will try this tomorrow and report back