Pad To Resume Street Protests

[jonclark]

I think it's about time us frang took to the streets to protest our problems and grievences - Anyone got a choice of colour

[Plus]

Politicians in parliament decided on constitution amendments with alleged goal of reconciliation.

Now one of the main protagonists came out and say they won't have any of it.

That should stop the process right away - instead of reconciliation it brings street politics back to life, with people scared that it would go bad again.

Even if Abhisit decides to honor his promise to the fellows MPs and goes on with the referendum, what else do you expect other than mass campaigns pro- and against them, and PAD is just starting early.

Dems would eventually jump on it, too, campaigning for "no" vote on most issues.

[Thai at Heart]

Have they even categorically announced the proposed changes to the constitution?

[quiksilva]

Don't forget PAD have their own political party these days, headed by none other than the charming Sondhi who faces a jail term for defamation.

This protest is not about the charter its all about power, and how the PAD can get more.

[justanothercybertosser]

the PAD are morons, just like the redshirts.

Without getting into anti-Thaksin stuff from the well known anti-Thaksin brigade here...please......, and avoiding meaningless color references, does anyone have an unbiased and non-agenda compilation of positions that define these two groups politically.

Neither groups are comprised of morons, and have defined political POV and intentions.

What are they?

Basically - both groups have in common that the see that there have to be changes in Thailand. They are extremely disappointed with the way how Thai democracy developed, with real power executed by shadow players and vested groups of interest.

<snip>

Red Shirts see as a solution to dismantle the bureaucratic polity, to give more power to elected politicians <snip>.

Thaksin is in many ways a catalyst for both groups - the PAD sees Thaksin as an example for corrupt politics, while the Red Shirts see Thaksin as a symbol, especially the way he has been ousted through a military coup that has reinforced the Thai style burocratic polity.

Both groups have strong ideological fundaments, and have clear mass support, are social movements. Both groups have much space for ideological developments. And both groups have strong appeal, as recent political and social developments in Thailand have not been reflected in parliamentary politics, especially are not reflected in existing political parties.

[Thai at Heart]

On the assumption that any political in roads made by the PAD/Sondhi will largely be at the expense of the Dems, how long would a government with Abhisit/Newin and Sondhi be able to survive anyway?

I don't like the way that getting rid of Thaksin was achieved, but in many ways it is water under the bridge now. If PPP make a political comeback in the polls, so be it, and the system should accept it.

However, I reckon that in the medium term Abhisit is the only realistic choice for Thailand and if he can win the next election with Newin in tow Thailand has a chance of getting back on it's feet. Throwing Sondhi/PAD into the equation means that the next government will probably be a coalition of all three which will in reality have no chance whatsoever of getting anything done.

[brahmburgers]

Time to accept the fact that PAD is bad for the country and does nothing to benefit the nation.

I don't agree. PAD was instrumental in getting rid of T. It also helped sweep Samak and Somchai out. Just getting those 3 problematic people out of top office have been beneficial to Thailand.

Reds are reading from the same playbook and trying to get Abhisit out, but it's not working. Indeed, general respect for Abhisit is increasing, despite many months of Red bellyaching.

Generally I'm ok with PAD, but some of their actions are a drag, such as their most recent plans to protest re; charter change. Plus, their choice of Sondhi as their standard bearer leaves much to be desired.

Your clarity of sympathies is a good basis for a meaningful discussion.

I have heard other Posts wondering about the political platform of these people, with no-one having much of an answer. The one thing that has been frequently mentioned is their stated desire for making appointments instead of elections and having eligibility criteria to qualify people to vote, and disqualifying many others. That being the case, in your support for this group brahmburger, are you saying you support these two political objectives?

No, I don't agree with "making appointments instead of elections and having eligibility criteria to qualify people to vote" ...although Ministers are appointed, regardless of who's in the power seat. By your own admission you state, "I have heard" such 'n such. It may have been one speaker at a rally, and may not necessarily be a platform of their movement.

On a similar note, the current Constitutional charter (and previous?) have restrictions on who can run for office, including the requirement that they all have a University degree (Masters?). I don't agree with that either, though that's not even on the agenda of any colored shirts. Any Thai citizen should be eligible to run for office. Under that rule, if Bill Gates or Steve Jobs or Ben Franklin were Thais, they couldn't run for public office here.

My point, earlier, is that the Yellows act more in accordance with one of the basic premises of what a protest should be. They're generally peaceful. In contrast, the Red Shirts, when they protest, are quick to riot.

There are a lot of issues, both with the Reds and the Yellows, and even with the basic ways Thai gov't disfunctions, that I don't agree with.

On a local level, just in my neighborhood, there are thousands of common folk who don't have title to properties they farm and reside upon. We're talking thousands of rai within sight of downtown Chiang Rai. The reason? Chiang Rai Land Dept, a vast network of bureaucrats, can't do their jobs as it relates to granting chanod (title) to those folks. There are thousands of bureaucrats stymied, pushing paper, acting busy, looking bored, ...with not a creative thought nor a modicum of alacrity in the bunch. That is a microcosm of government in Thailand.

Perhaps Chiang Rai is one of the provincial outposts where they send a disgraced politician when he's "assigned to an inactive post" .....there are dozens per week, and they gotta go somewhere don't they? And they could never be harshly disciplined or (Bob forbid) kicked out of their jobs - no matter how dire their offense.

Edited October 8, 2009 by brahmburgers

[slimdog]

On a similar note, both the current Constitutional charter (and previous?) have restrictions on who can run for office, including the requirement that they all have a University degree (Masters?). I don't agree with that either, though that's not even on the agenda of any colored shirts. Any Thai citizen should be eligible to run for office. .

The 1997 Constitution did state that MP's and Senators must have at least a Bachelor's degree or equivalent. (Having passed through an Armed forces military acadamy was ruled to be the equivalent.)

The current Constitution states that MP's no longer require this, although a Bachelor's degree (or it equivalent) is still required for all cabinet members and members of the senate.

[Plus]

<snip>

PAD has not used monarchy in its last campaigns as much as in 2006, if at all.

Reds have not realized that elected politicians are their enemy, too. They are still under Thaksin spell, and he was an elected politician, and he was overthrown in a coup, so they follow that line.

Once they realize (if they realize) that the coup belongs to the past and Thaksin has no place in the future, they will reassess their position on bureaucracy vs elected politicians.

Are they happy with their current representatives? I guess not, even if they are united by the common goal of saving Thaksin. What will be their relationship with PTP once Thaksin is no more? Will they grow fond of Chalerm and Chavalit?

I'd love to give them benefit of doubt, but I think without Thaksin they'll cease to exist.

[justanothercybertosser]

Once they realize (if they realize) that the coup belongs to the past

If you read Paul Chambers' extensive research paper, presented during and endorsed by a recent ISIS conference, you would realize how factually wrong your statement, and all you following opinion based conclusion, is.

[Plus]

Once they realize (if they realize) that the coup belongs to the past

If you read Paul Chambers' extensive research paper, presented during and endorsed by a recent ISIS conference, you would realize how factually wrong your statement, and all you following opinion based conclusion, is.

Oh yeah?

Go ahead, protest and rally against a three year old event until you are blue in the face, no one else cares. The rest of the country has moved on.

PAD has broken up with coup makers pretty fast, and Anupong is now a traitor to their anti-Thaksin cause, not to mention military involvement in Sondhi assassination attempt.

It all happens under red noses, but they are still fixated on 2006. I think they are hopeless.

[Thai at Heart]

<snip>

PAD has not used monarchy in its last campaigns as much as in 2006, if at all.

Reds have not realized that elected politicians are their enemy, too. They are still under Thaksin spell, and he was an elected politician, and he was overthrown in a coup, so they follow that line.

Once they realize (if they realize) that the coup belongs to the past and Thaksin has no place in the future, they will reassess their position on bureaucracy vs elected politicians.

Are they happy with their current representatives? I guess not, even if they are united by the common goal of saving Thaksin. What will be their relationship with PTP once Thaksin is no more? Will they grow fond of Chalerm and Chavalit?

I'd love to give them benefit of doubt, but I think without Thaksin they'll cease to exist.

We all know (despite your denials) that one of the premises for Sondhi (PAD)acting the way that he did was his so called "Finland Plot" accusing Thaksin and his bunch of wanting to remove the monarchy. The images of guns being waved around in proximity to royal images was there for all to see. The mere colours that the PAD wore show one of the few parts of their ideology.

Considering that the coup was only a few years ago, and by your own admission in another thread, that the process of the coup is essentially still in progress, I doubt it would be very smart for anyone to consign the coup to history. Coups are almost as common as parliamentary elections in Thailand. The coup was the middle act in moving the parliamentary democracy in another direction, and I think it is a good thing that it is remembered.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Thai at Heart

[Plus]

by your own admission in another thread, that the process of the coup is essentially still in progress

The coup and Thaksin are like Siamese twins. One cannot exist without another.

As long as Thaksin is trying to stage the comeback, the coup will be in progress. For Thaksin it most certainly is, for the rest of the country it's history.

When reds move past Thaksin, the coup will lose its importance to them, too.

[Thai at Heart]

by your own admission in another thread, that the process of the coup is essentially still in progress

The coup and Thaksin are like Siamese twins. One cannot exist without another.

As long as Thaksin is trying to stage the comeback, the coup will be in progress. For Thaksin it most certainly is, for the rest of the country it's history.

When reds move past Thaksin, the coup will lose its importance to them, too.

One could probably more accurately say that the coup, Thaksin, PAD and the politicised army are quadruplets with Newin the runt of the family.

The constitution of today wouldn't exist without the first 4. It is not just of Thaksin's doing that the current government want to modify the constitution.

[xminator]

So currently PAD want to keep the JUNTA constitution (and protect its string holders). Calling it the 2007 constitution make it sound legal and formal. Its not, its a hurried bad piece of work put in place to save coupmakers asses.

The coalition want some changes, what changes seems unclear, but I doubt they will touch any parts removing junta members immunity.

PT/Red want back to the 97 constitution. Moral highground tough the intentions might not match that same moral...

[animatic]

Politicians in parliament decided on constitution amendments with alleged goal of reconciliation.

Now one of the main protagonists came out and say they won't have any of it.

That should stop the process right away - instead of reconciliation it brings street politics back to life, with people scared that it would go bad again.

Even if Abhisit decides to honor his promise to the fellows MPs and goes on with the referendum, what else do you expect other than mass campaigns pro- and against them, and PAD is just starting early.

Dems would eventually jump on it, too, campaigning for "no" vote on most issues.

More likely a demand for REDconcilliation.

Red way or the highway.

PAD would be worried it gives back too much to Team Thaksin.

If the actual ammendments don't, they may not be too wild acting about the whole thing.

Still there are players controlling other factions that are banned and don't want this to happen again.

As if it really stops their control... it's about their FACE, not their control...

they have dozens of Meat Puppet MP's... yeah, that's too close to reality to even be parody...

Pull the strings and they stand up, and pull another then their pre-recorded blabber spews out.

Pull a third string, they fart and vote on cue.

I suspect Thaksin is worried about the TIME LAG to get this re-write done...

he could be broke or closer by the time he REALLY needs dosh to buy more Meat Puppets.

TRT/PPP/PTP on a moral high ground... yeah right, that IS a tough sell.

They have exhausted their possibilities for an issue that works in real time.

The '97 constitution is the one Thaksin et al ran rough shod over.

~That is why it is toast. It didn't stop them making a hash of it.

There are many elements that were good with it,

But a blanket return to it is a recipe for disaster again.

And modified version might not be too bad, IF it adresses the issues exploited before...

of course those are the points that are being excized from the curtrent one.

Same old Same old... merde de toro.

Edited October 8, 2009 by animatic

[Plus]

REDconciliation? You should copyright it.

Calling it the 2007 constitution make it sound legal and formal. Its not, its a hurried bad piece of work put in place to save coupmakers asses.

The coalition want some changes, what changes seems unclear, but I doubt they will touch any parts removing junta members immunity.

PT/Red want back to the 97 constitution. Moral highground tough the intentions might not match that same moral...

What do you mean the proposed changes are unclear? There are six points there, they've been widely publicized. No, they didn't touch the part about junta immunity.

PTP was THE driving force behind those amendments, they took the most active part and created most noise. Now, after one Thaksin's call, they say they don't want them anymore.

Spoiled brats, all I can say.

[Publicus]

Spoiled and confused.

Dazed and in disarray.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Publicus

[MeMock]

Looks like a bit of red shirt action will be happening this weekend in Ubon as it seems that the PM will be paying a visit.

[jasreeve17]

Okay, now the topic title has been spun 100% around!

Should we close up the thread and chalk up another victory for the yellows, or bash the reds a bit more first???

[baht&sold]

Okay, now the topic title has been spun 100% around!

Should we close up the thread and chalk up another victory for the yellows, or bash the reds a bit more first???

Not quite yet... and on a related note:

Just in: UDD TO RALLY ON SUNDAY

Where: Democracy Monument from 4pm

Theme: "Get Abhisit out, bring back 1997 charter"

Cause: UDD supporters feel the 1997 charter was the "best yet" and want it brought back

As stated elsewhere, elections won't work for the red's handlers and public referendums are unacceptable to them.

Thus, look for a build-up to 'other' options... Yellow, red, blue, purple polka-dots, personally fed-up with the lot.

[MeMock]

Looks like a bit of red shirt action will be happening this weekend in Ubon as it seems that the PM will be paying a visit.

Why was the link deleted?

[Rumfoord]

Looks like a bit of red shirt action will be happening this weekend in Ubon as it seems that the PM will be paying a visit.

Why was the link deleted?

maybe your link was the Bangkok Post? the admin and SEO specialist of TVforum doesn't allowed links to the website of that newspaper. there is a discussion running about this. click here

anyway, i found your information verified on another place in the www, that should be safe to quote and link according the TVforum rules.

PM will visit Ubon Ratchathani despite anti-govt rally

BANGKOK, 4 October 2009 (NNT) – Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva is scheduled to visit the northeastern province of Ubon Ratchathani on 10 October 2009, according to Democrat Spokesperson MD Buranaj Smutharaks.

MD Buranaj announced that the prime minister would travel to meet local people in order to gain first-hand information on their problems. On the same day, Prime Minister Abhisit will visit and give monetary compensation to grandma Hai Khanjanta as well.

The spokesperson believed that although some anti-government groups intended to stage a rally to disrupt the Prime Minister’s visit, their gathering would not obstruct the government’s work in the area. He reiterated that the prime minister would make official visits to every region nationwide without fear of such movements by the anti-government groups.

The cabinet earlier approved a government central fund worth 4.9 million baht to compensate Ms Hai Khanjanta and her family, who have suffered from the construction of Huai Laha Dam in Natan district, Ubon Ratchathani.

http://thainews.prd.go.th/en/news.php?id=255210040044

[Insight]

Welcome back, Mr Disorder.

[jcsmith]

Discounting some problems with tourists / airports / PAD, overall the PAD protests had little if any effect on the tourists.

How about all of the people who were stuck at the airports? I'm sure they weren't too happy.

[justanothercybertosser]

Once they realize (if they realize) that the coup belongs to the past

If you read Paul Chambers' extensive research paper, presented during and endorsed by a recent ISIS conference, you would realize how factually wrong your statement, and all you following opinion based conclusion, is.

Oh yeah?

Go ahead, protest and rally against a three year old event until you are blue in the face, no one else cares. The rest of the country has moved on.

PAD has broken up with coup makers pretty fast, and Anupong is now a traitor to their anti-Thaksin cause, not to mention military involvement in Sondhi assassination attempt.

It all happens under red noses, but they are still fixated on 2006. I think they are hopeless.

The coup triggered developments that are still very much in the process - power of ISOC, increased political involvement of a certain clique of officers from certain regiments, massively increased military budgets, etc.

These things are clearly outlined in the study i recommend. But i fear it is hopeless to hope that you may read a study that could threaten your frame of reference.

[MeMock]

Can someone please tell me the correct protocol as to how to enquire about my two attempts at posting a link that were subsequently deleted. Thank you.

[jasreeve17]

Okay, now the topic title has been spun 100% around!

Should we close up the thread and chalk up another victory for the yellows, or bash the reds a bit more first???

Close up the thread quick jasreeve, before your POV is exposed even more than it has been:

..............................>appoint our own kind or have out-of-control elections,

...............................>qualify the good voters.........disqualify the bad ones.

Or.....shall we discuss some more?

Up to you!

I was being ironic MrDirk. I have zero respect for the PAD appologists.

I just find it funny how every thread is spun into an anti-red thread. The name of this thread is: Relpying to Pad To Resume Street Protests, but the usual candidates have weedled it around to talk about red protests: look at the posts immediately before my post #56, and who made them... It's non-stop with these polarized folk. I live in the middle ground and have little respect for extremists of either type.

In my opinion these extremists ruin many threads. For example, I opened a thread to discuss ASTV, not to slate them, just to discuss their status, in fact I was agreeing with the idea of freedom of speech and keeping them open. Alas, in double quick time a picture of a red shirter wielding a huge machete was posted by a kid who denied ever having seen yellow shirters with guns and knocking over policeman (as per the worldwide images during the airport siege). Another thread hijacked with ignorant and polarized anti-red hate posts - I asked at the start of the thread to keep on topic, but they can't help themselves...

I'm sick of it.

Edited October 8, 2009 by jasreeve17

[brahmburgers]

The next nationwide election should be interesting.

Let's hope it's not too tainted with paid-for-votes or coerced voting blocks, as is too common in Thai elections.

I'd recommend a nationwide campaign to educate Thais on what a fair election is. Granted, education by itself won't necessarily affect big changes in attitudes, but at least Thais will have a frame of reference. Thus far, they seem to view elections as primarily a process of voting for whom they're told to vote for by village elders, with or without some direct payment in the mix.

Thais, in general, need to assert their rights as citizens. One of those rights is to know what the candidates stand for. Currently, there are scant few debates leading up to elections - as well as scant few policy statements. It's as if the profusion of billboards along highways and directives from party headquarters (and pu yai ban) are all that counts. One reason debates are nearly unknown is there's such a fear of 'defamation of character' lawsuits among VIP's.

One reason platforms and policy statements are rare, preceding elections, is the candidates assume the electorate already knows what each candidate stands for, simply by knowing which party they're affiliated with. That mentality also fits with a populace which believes in the esoteric/metaphysical. Such a populace believes that thoughts pass mysteriously from one person's brain to another's, so therefore many ideas are inferred, and therefore don't need to be articulated.

[Thai at Heart]

The next nationwide election should be interesting.

Let's hope it's not too tainted with paid-for-votes or coerced voting blocks, as is too common in Thai elections.

I'd recommend a nationwide campaign to educate Thais on what a fair election is. Granted, education by itself won't necessarily affect big changes in attitudes, but at least Thais will have a frame of reference. Thus far, they seem to view elections as primarily a process of voting for whom they're told to vote for by village elders, with or without some direct payment in the mix.

Thais, in general, need to assert their rights as citizens. One of those rights is to know what the candidates stand for. Currently, there are scant few debates leading up to elections - as well as scant few policy statements. It's as if the profusion of billboards along highways and directives from party headquarters (and pu yai ban) are all that counts. One reason debates are nearly unknown is there's such a fear of 'defamation of character' lawsuits among VIP's.

One reason platforms and policy statements are rare, preceding elections, is the candidates assume the electorate already knows what each candidate stands for, simply by knowing which party they're affiliated with. That mentality also fits with a populace which believes in the esoteric/metaphysical. Such a populace believes that thoughts pass mysteriously from one person's brain to another's, so therefore many ideas are inferred, and therefore don't need to be articulated.

It could start with compulsory political manifestos for the parties having to be submitted, and distributed to the people at least 3 months before the elections.

The sheer lack of true political plans mean that candidates are not wanting to sit in parliament for any other reason than simply to be there. Then beyond that, there is virtually no point being there if you aren't in the ruling majority so traditionally the nominal opposition does next to nothing to check the government of the day. Then the oppositions only action is to sit and wait for the ruling coalition to collapse of it's own accord.

Ruling parties aren't traditionally brought down by the opposition but are brought down by their pathetic oddball coalitions falling apart.