Road Sign

[aletta]

I know this sign means yut but surely the first letter is hor heep.Is a silent h common in Thai words?

[taxexile]

ห is placed before certain low class consonants , ( and ย is a low class consonant ) , in order to give a low tone to the syllable , low class consonants normally cannot give low tones (even with tone marks) , only mid , falling or high tones.

Edited March 27, 2005 by taxexile

[meadish_sweetball]

ห is placed before certain low class consonants , ( and ย is a low class consonant )  , in order to give a low tone to the syllable , low class consonants normally cannot give low tones (even with tone marks) , only mid , falling or high tones.

Yes, that is correct. ห is a high consonant and since it is first in the syllable, it rules how to interpret the tone reading for the syllable. You could say that it works to transfer the low class consonant to a high one.

Please note that high, low and mid consonants do not mean high, low and mid tones. It is the interplay between initial consonant, final sound (consonant or vowel sound), and syllable length that work together to determine the tone of a particular syllable.

In a so called "dead" syllable such as the one in the example, this means the syllable tone is low, just like Taxexile writes. In a "live" syllable (a syllable that ends with a vowel sound or either of the above-mentioned sonorants, ห ensures that the tone will be rising).

[Abandon]

Neither of you answered the OPs question

Yes it is a silent letter in that instance, and yes it is common in Thai to have a silent Hor Heep in front of a word - there is no rule for knowing if it is silent or not, other than learning word by word.

[Edward B]

Is a silent h common in Thai words?

Probably more common than the silent K or G in English (Know, Knot, Knight, Gnaw, Gnome, Gnat).

- there is no rule for knowing if it is silent or not, other than learning word by word.

As for a rule, I reckon there are simple rules you can learn to recognise whether it should be silent or not. For example, if the consonant immediately following the ห has a tone mark then the ห is silent. Similarly if the consonant has a vowel above, below or after then the ห is also silent. Note that อ and ว would both be counted as a vowel in this case. So หวง is huang, not wong, and หมอบ is morb, not hom ob. If a vowel follows the ห then you pronounce it. I thnk I've got that right. Can't think of any exceptions. Where's Khun Yoot?

[meadish_sweetball]

Is a silent h common in Thai words?

Probably more common than the silent K or G in English (Know, Knot, Knight, Gnaw, Gnome, Gnat).

- there is no rule for knowing if it is silent or not, other than learning word by word.

As for a rule, I reckon there are simple rules you can learn to recognise whether it should be silent or not. For example, if the consonant immediately following the ห has a tone mark then the ห is silent. Similarly if the consonant has a vowel above, below or after then the ห is also silent. Note that อ and ว would both be counted as a vowel in this case. So หวง is huang, not wong, and หมอบ is morb, not hom ob. If a vowel follows the ห then you pronounce it. I thnk I've got that right. Can't think of any exceptions. Where's Khun Yoot?

Sounds waterproof to me.

[snowleopard]

Is a silent h common in Thai words?

Probably more common than the silent K or G in English (Know, Knot, Knight, Gnaw, Gnome, Gnat).

- there is no rule for knowing if it is silent or not, other than learning word by word.

As for a rule, I reckon there are simple rules you can learn to recognise whether it should be silent or not. For example, if the consonant immediately following the ห has a tone mark then the ห is silent. Similarly if the consonant has a vowel above, below or after then the ห is also silent. Note that อ and ว would both be counted as a vowel in this case. So หวง is huang, not wong, and หมอบ is morb, not hom ob. If a vowel follows the ห then you pronounce it. I thnk I've got that right. Can't think of any exceptions. Where's Khun Yoot?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

แหวน

[bannork]

Is a silent h common in Thai words?

Probably more common than the silent K or G in English (Know, Knot, Knight, Gnaw, Gnome, Gnat).

- there is no rule for knowing if it is silent or not, other than learning word by word.

As for a rule, I reckon there are simple rules you can learn to recognise whether it should be silent or not. For example, if the consonant immediately following the ห has a tone mark then the ห is silent. Similarly if the consonant has a vowel above, below or after then the ห is also silent. Note that อ and ว would both be counted as a vowel in this case. So หวง is huang, not wong, and หมอบ is morb, not hom ob. If a vowel follows the ห then you pronounce it. I thnk I've got that right. Can't think of any exceptions. Where's Khun Yoot?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

แหวน

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He forgot to mention if before the consonant, nice one SL.

[siamesekitty]

If the rules just confuse you just remember them word by word for now. When you get familiar enough with the words, you'll learn to recognize them when you come across them.

Some words with the a silent "ห" or "อ" before the "ย":

หยุด = stop

หย่า = divorce

หยิก = pinch

หยิบ = pick up

หยาบ = rough

หยอด = drip (as in when you use an eye-dropper)

หยิ่ง = conceited, arrogant

เหยี่ยว = hawk

อย่า = don't

อยาก = want

อย่าง = type, sort

อยู่ = stay

Ah, and please note that all of these have the same low tone. If you already know how to correctly pronounce หยุด then just apply that same tone to these other words.

Edited March 28, 2005 by siamesekitty

[the scouser]

If the rules just confuse you    just remember them word by word for now. When you get familiar enough with the words, you'll learn to recognize them when you come across them. 

Some words with the a silent "ห" or "อ" before the "ย":

หยุด = stop

หย่า = divorce

หยิก = pinch

หยิบ = pick up

หยาบ = rough

หยอด = drip (as in when you use an eye-dropper)

หยิ่ง = conceited, arrogant

เหยี่ยว = hawk

อย่า = don't

อยาก = want

อย่าง = type, sort

อยู่ = stay

Ah, and please note that all of these have the same low tone. If you already know how to correctly pronounce หยุด then just apply that same tone to these other words.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the vocab list, Siamesekitty. Is the word for "hawk" the verb or the noun; i.e. to sell something door-to-door or a type of bird?

Thanks,

Scouse.

[siamesekitty]

Thanks for the vocab list, Siamesekitty. Is the word for "hawk" the verb or the noun; i.e. to sell something door-to-door or a type of bird?

Thanks,

Scouse.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My pleasure, scouser. Could be a teacher except for the fact that I'm terrible at explaining the rules!

"เหยี่ยว" means hawk as in the bird, or falcon.

Warning: If you're going to use this word try to make sure you get the tone right. "เยี่ยว", which is pronounced almost the same but has a falling tone, means "piss" and is therefore rather rude!

Edited March 28, 2005 by siamesekitty

[aletta]

Thanks for all the help.

What i lot of good info from a question about a road sign.

[taxexile]

What i lot of good info from a question about a road sign.

pity nobody bothers to obey them, though

[Richard W]

Is a silent h common in Thai words?

Probably more common than the silent K or G in English (Know, Knot, Knight, Gnaw, Gnome, Gnat).

- there is no rule for knowing if it is silent or not, other than learning word by word.

As for a rule, I reckon there are simple rules you can learn to recognise whether it should be silent or not. For example, if the consonant immediately following the ห has a tone mark then the ห is silent. Similarly if the consonant has a vowel above, below or after then the ห is also silent. Note that อ and ว would both be counted as a vowel in this case. So หวง is huang, not wong, and หมอบ is morb, not hom ob. If a vowel follows the ห then you pronounce it. I thnk I've got that right. Can't think of any exceptions. Where's Khun Yoot?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

แหวน

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He forgot to mention if before the consonant, nice one SL.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You start to hope for other clues in these cases, e.g. the final น, c.f. เหว [R]heeu 'gorge, abyss'. Sometimes there is little hope but to know the word, e.g. เหง [R]heeng 'bully', เหงา [R]ngau 'lonely', เหรา [R]hee[M]raa 'horseshoe crab'. All that will help you with แหน [RL]nae 'duckweed' and [RL]haen 'keep for oneself' is that the latter chiefly occurs in the phrase หวงแหน, so you may suspect partial alliteration.

[yoot]

There are a few rules to recognise whether ห is silent or not.

1. ห will be silent if it is before ย, ร, ล, ว, ง, ญ, น, ม

E.g. หย่า( to divorce) , หรือ (or) , หล่น (fall down) , หวัง(hope) , หงาย(supine) ,หญ้า(grass) ,หนี(to escape) , เหมือน(similar)

2. ห will be not silent if there is tone mark on it. E.g. ห่วง(to worry)

3. ห will be not silent if there is a vowel above or below it. E.g. หิว(hungry) , หัน(turn)

There are some word which are exceptions, หง , หน, หรดี, หรรษา, หวง, หวด, หวน, หวย, เหง, เหม, เหมวดี, เห-รา, เหว, แหน, โหง, โหน, โหย, โหร, โหย. All of these word ห will be not silent, หwill be the first consonant while other is the last consonant or vowel of each words.

[Richard W]

There are some further vaguely exceptional cases.

หรคุณ (หอ-ระ-คุน) 'read lead'

หรดาล (หอ-ระ-ดาน) 'realgar'

หรดี (หอ-ระ-ดี) 'southwest'

หริรักษ์ (หะ-ริ-รัก) 'Hariraksha' (a name of Vishnu)

For three of the four, a further rule may be used - 'silent' but tone influencing ห does not occur in Pali/Sanskrit words.

There is truly silent ห in พรหม [M]phrom[/M] 'Brahma' and พราหมณ์ [M]phraam 'Brahmin'. The dual-pricing rule here is that in words of Pali/Sanskrit origin, thanthakhat can only be placed over a consonant that is followed by a short vowel (a, i, u) in these languages, e.g. พันธุ์ [M]phan 'family'.

[bina]

There are some word which are exceptions

i knew there had to be a catch somewhere; just when it looked fairly straightforward....

i think in the beginning its generally easier to recognize and remember the words; later in the game the rules fall in to place and then additional applications can be made

KISS = I AGREE (i had a boss that used to tell us that all the time when we were writing work procedures for factory workers>>>)but applicable to all

[taotoey]

I rearrange words from siamesekitty's #9 post.

หยุด = stop

หยิก = pinch

หยิบ = pick up

หยาบ = rough

หยอด = drip (as in when you use an eye-dropper)

Adding more words like:

หงุดหงิด moody

เหน็บ (can't think of english word right now, it's like negative nagging)

These words has ห in front of them.

You may notice that ห is in front of low consonant.

And, you may also notice that all words end with middle consonants.

In this case, the sound of that word is 'siang ake' which is of lower tone, i.e.

่ siang ake

้ siang toa

๊ siang tree

๋ siang jatawa.

But if ห is in front of a low consonant of a word that ends with a low consonant, the sound of that word will be 'siang jatawa' like:

หยาม insult

หวาน sweet

แหลม (noun - cape, adjective - sharp)

Now, what about these words,

หย่า = divorce

หยิ่ง = conceited, arrogant

เหยี่ยว = hawk.

These words have 'siang ake' by using " ่ " (ไม้เอก mai ake).

Will be back later folks, gotta call it for the day.

[Richard W]

I rearrange words from siamesekitty's #9 post.

หยุด = stop

...

These words has ห in front of them.

You may notice that ห is in front of low consonant.

And, you may also notice that all words end with middle consonants.

In this case, the sound of that word is 'siang ake' which is of lower tone, i.e.

่ siang ake

...

But if ห is in front of a low consonant of a word that ends with a low consonant, the sound of that word will be 'siang jatawa' like:

หยาม insult

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Using the tone classes of the final consonants only works because words starting with 'silent' 'h' are almost always native Thai words. The real distinction is between an (oral) stop (a.k.a. 'plosive') or fricative on one hand, and a 'resonant' ( = vowel-like or nasal) consonant on the other. If you look at a decent chart of Thai consonants, you'll find the nasal consonants (including, for historical reasons, ญ - think 'ñ') in one column - ง to ม, and all the other resonants but one (ฬ) in a row - ย to ว.