Charcoal Eucalyptus Trees

[worriedgary]

Hi,

does anyone know the current selling price of eucalyptus grown for charcoal? i have the chance to buy 20 already planted fields, trees about one half years old for 290,000b. trees average about 10-12 cm diameter. The people who want to sell have not given food or cleaned weeds. I know this tree can make problems depleating the water coarse, and rendering soil useless. But cant help think this is a bargin?!!

[gotlost]

Is that price for just trees or land and if land how many rai are the trees on? At the price you quot that should be about 8 rai.

[gotlost]

Is that price for just trees or land and if land how many rai are the trees on? At the price you quot that should be about 8 rai.

[Maizefarmer]

Lots of questions here - as it stands this has "red flag" written all over it ...........

Unmainted crop [fields] often ='s cash flow problems: which sounds like rented land and a tenent farmer who has, or is about to fall behind on payments - which suggests the OP is buying the crop, not the land.

"20 already planted fields ......"

Questions:

- how many trees per field and how large is each field?

- who actually owns the fields?

- what sort of titledship do they have to that land

- if rented to a 3rd party - what are the terms of the rental agreement?

- if you are buying the crop, who pays the field rent (if rent has to be paid)?

Worriedgary - you need to get answers to all these questions, and where agreements and titleship are concerned, you want to see documentry evidence - before parting with your hard earned savings.

As the crop stands at the moment (subject to just how much there is - which you haven't said), it's almost certainly not worth anything like the 290K been asked for, so you are going to have to factor in a timeframe to get that capital outlay back, and what it is going to cost (rent, field maintence, labour and ag chemicals) per year before you get that capital back and realise a profit.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Maizefarmer

[worriedgary]

Is that price for just trees or land and if land how many rai are the trees on? At the price you quot that should be about 8 rai.

thats 20 rai, all planted with eucalyptus. If your saying should be about 8 rai, sounds like i've got a bargin!!

Do you know the selling price? I live near chaiyaphum.

Thanks.

[Maizefarmer]

Is that price for just trees or land and if land how many rai are the trees on? At the price you quot that should be about 8 rai.

thats 20 rai, all planted with eucalyptus. If your saying should be about 8 rai, sounds like i've got a bargin!!

Do you know the selling price? I live near chaiyaphum.

Thanks.

Yes, that's a bargin for sure - and all the more reason I think you should spend a bit of time & effort on some due-dilligence.

[teletiger]

The last price I heard of for Euca was 200 Baht per ton. The price collapsed at the beginning of the year, but may have moved up since.

This would equate to 1450 tons. 72.5 tons per Rai.

Please consider transport and labour (cutting, loading, etc) costs.

Regards.

[worriedgary]

The last price I heard of for Euca was 200 Baht per ton. The price collapsed at the beginning of the year, but may have moved up since.

This would equate to 1450 tons. 72.5 tons per Rai.

Please consider transport and labour (cutting, loading, etc) costs.

Regards.

Ok thanks all.

sorry i think i hav'nt posted very clearly.

The owner has money problems. the ownership papaers are in his name, not rented. the fields papers are supacore? my wife speaks like this but i dont know if thats how you spell it?

He want to sell all 20 fields, plus his trees for the said price.

his fields are 40 meter square, and hes planted trees 2 meter by 3 meter apart, i think about 260 trees one rai?

Im very grateful for any advise, im new to farming and sometimes its very hard to understand my wife and her family as things they say seem to change by the hour, or minute!!!

thanks again!!

[Maizefarmer]

The last price I heard of for Euca was 200 Baht per ton. The price collapsed at the beginning of the year, but may have moved up since.

This would equate to 1450 tons. 72.5 tons per Rai.

Please consider transport and labour (cutting, loading, etc) costs.

Regards.

Ok thanks all.

sorry i think i hav'nt posted very clearly.

The owner has money problems. the ownership papaers are in his name, not rented. the fields papers are supacore? my wife speaks like this but i dont know if thats how you spell it?

He want to sell all 20 fields, plus his trees for the said price.

his fields are 40 meter square, and hes planted trees 2 meter by 3 meter apart, i think about 260 trees one rai?

Im very grateful for any advise, im new to farming and sometimes its very hard to understand my wife and her family as things they say seem to change by the hour, or minute!!!

thanks again!!

Oh yer .... "SUPACORE..." - well, well, that explains it.

She means SOR POR KOR - and that worriedgary is the RED FLAG I was refering to

SOR POR KOR land is subject to a load of restrictions, not least of which are restrictions on buying and selling.

SPK titled land was specifically legislatated for to give poor farmers access to land and to protect them. As recently as 2006 Thaksin tried to enact legislation which gave SPK holders the right to CHANOTE titleship (unrestricted use and ownership) as part of his efforts to get appeal to the rural poor.

He was not successfull, and if anything his efforts attracted the sort of attention those who trade "under-the-table" with SPK titles can least afford. Yes - titleship does change hands, yes village heads do sign-off on name changes - but legally, you are paying something that legally you or your girlfriend will never legally own - and that explains the price.

Has your grilfriend or anyone else in the family made any effort to explain to you any of the above .....?

If you want to go ahead I suggest you do the following: go see a local lawyer (go alone - you don't want to take anyone with you who can twist his arm for a fee) and get an indpendent opinion from him regards getting an SPK title changed to relfect another name. Been a local lawyer he will know who the local officials are and how amicable they are to manipulating paperwork, and standing by any name change to documents they sign off on if challeneged 5 - `10 years down the road (i.e. just before the crop matures - the time when you can expect any problems to arise, if they are going to arise).

My personal opinion - you want to avoid this one like the plague - the risks outweigh any benefits exponentialy ..... anyway, if it was such a good deal, why aren't any Thai's interested? I would think that been SPK land has a lot to do with it!

Edited October 10, 2009 by Maizefarmer

[worriedgary]

The last price I heard of for Euca was 200 Baht per ton. The price collapsed at the beginning of the year, but may have moved up since.

This would equate to 1450 tons. 72.5 tons per Rai.

Please consider transport and labour (cutting, loading, etc) costs.

Regards.

Ok thanks all.

sorry i think i hav'nt posted very clearly.

The owner has money problems. the ownership papaers are in his name, not rented. the fields papers are supacore? my wife speaks like this but i dont know if thats how you spell it?

He want to sell all 20 fields, plus his trees for the said price.

his fields are 40 meter square, and hes planted trees 2 meter by 3 meter apart, i think about 260 trees one rai?

Im very grateful for any advise, im new to farming and sometimes its very hard to understand my wife and her family as things they say seem to change by the hour, or minute!!!

thanks again!!

Oh yer .... "SUPACORE..." - well, well, that explains it.

She means SOR POR KOR - and that worriedgary is the RED FLAG I was refering to

SOR POR KOR land is subject to a load of restrictions, not least of which are restrictions on buying and selling.

SPK titled land was specifically legislatated for to give poor farmers access to land and to protect them. As recently as 2006 Thaksin tried to enact legislation which gave SPK holders the right to CHANOTE titleship (unrestricted use and ownership) as part of his efforts to get appeal to the rural poor.

He was not successfull, and if anything his efforts attracted the sort of attention those who trade "under-the-table" with SPK titles can least afford. Yes - titleship does change hands, yes village heads do sign-off on name changes - but legally, you are paying something that legally you or your girlfriend will never legally own - and that explains the price.

Has your grilfriend or anyone else in the family made any effort to explain to you any of the above .....?

If you want to go ahead I suggest you do the following: go see a local lawyer (go alone - you don't want to take anyone with you who can twist his arm for a fee) and get an indpendent opinion from him regards getting an SPK title changed to relfect another name. Been a local lawyer he will know who the local officials are and how amicable they are to manipulating paperwork, and standing by any name change to documents they sign off on if challeneged 5 - `10 years down the road (i.e. just before the crop matures - the time when you can expect any problems to arise, if they are going to arise).

My personal opinion - you want to avoid this one like the plague - the risks outweigh any benefits exponentialy ..... anyway, if it was such a good deal, why aren't any Thai's interested? I would think that been SPK land has a lot to do with it!

Thanks maizefarmer!!! Great advise!!

Yes my wife has tried to explain the difference between all the different types of ownership, but very poorly as it seems! Im gonna take your advise and go see a lawer!!

thanks again!!!!

[Maizefarmer]

If you scan and send me copies of the SPK docs I'll tell you exactly whats written on them - name, area, location blah blah, blah blah....

[Tim207]

and standing by any name change to documents they sign off on if challeneged 5 - `10 years down the road (i.e. just before the crop matures - the time when you can expect any problems to arise, if they are going to arise).

If you do decide to go through with it, you might consider seperate purchase agreements for the land and the crop. I would assume that even if the land deal is challenged, you would still own the crop if the purchase agreement was seperate. That would give you partial protection and also reduce the incentive for the land deal to be challenged.

[Maizefarmer]

and standing by any name change to documents they sign off on if challeneged 5 - `10 years down the road (i.e. just before the crop matures - the time when you can expect any problems to arise, if they are going to arise).

If you do decide to go through with it, you might consider seperate purchase agreements for the land and the crop. I would assume that even if the land deal is challenged, you would still own the crop if the purchase agreement was seperate. That would give you partial protection and also reduce the incentive for the land deal to be challenged.

!!!!!!!???????? - hel_l Tim, what did you study, mate - law! - thats smart thinking, thats a dam_n good idea - seperate the land from the crop (at least on paper), so notwithstanding any problems later, having seperate pruchase contracts for the land and the crop (and make sure that the crop contract clearly treats it as what is known in Thailand as a "forward crop purchase", with nothing to do with the land) may at least help offset any loss on the land if there is a dispute later on, against the value of the crop.

Nice one Tim .......

Worriedgary - there is no restriction on ex-pats/foreigners buying agriculture crops - which is what a timber plantation is.

Edited October 12, 2009 by Maizefarmer

[Tim207]

!!!!!!!???????? - hel_l Tim, what did you study, mate - law! - thats smart thinking, thats a dam_n good idea - seperate the land from the crop

One of the things I love about Thailand is that you have to continually find creative ways to get even the simplest things done. It keeps your mind spinning.

As for legal training, the only dealings I have with the inner workings of legal systems are strictly unintential and unwanted.

[drtreelove]

FYI. I don't have the source info for this; I got it off a real estate website. don

______________________________________________________________________

Land Title Deeds

There are 6 different types of title deed in Thailand and it is essential to obtain correct information on the deeds to any property you intend to purchase.

The Chanote and the Nor Sor Sam Kor are the only title deeds over which registerable right of ownership or lease can exist, and are as such the only ones that prudent purchasers should consider.

Chanote (Title Deeds)

Freehold title with the owner able to leave the land unattended. An individual named upon a title deed, may use the title as proof of ownership in all legal undertakings and with the authorities Title deeds are registered at the Land Department in the province in which the land is located, and there is no waiting time required to transfer title. However, any sub-division of the titled plot to more than nine sub-plots must follow the Land Allotment Law, Section 286.

Chanote titles are accurately surveyed, plotted in relation to a national survey grid and also marked by unique numbered marker posts set in the ground. It is the long term goal of the Land Department, that all land in Thailand will be covered under the Chanote title system.

Nor Sor 3 Gor (Confirmed Certificate of Use)

This certifies that the person named on the certificate has the confirmed right to use the land, implying all requirements for the issuance of title deed have been met, and issuance of the title deed is pending. They may be sold, leased, used as mortgage collateral etc. The holder of this certificate cannot leave the land unattended for more than 12 years.

With this documentation the land area is defined with parcel points and is accurately mapped, using GPS system, showing adjoining plots on a map using a standard scale of 1:5000. Land with this type of documentation may be sub-divided and legal acts need not be publicised.

Nor Sor 3 (Certificate of Use)

Similar to the above Confirmed Certificate of Use except that not all of the formalities to certify the right to use have been performed. Before a transfer can be made, a notice of intent must be posted and then 30 days public notice is necessary before any change of status over the land can be registered.

No parcel points are marked and it is issued upon a specific plot with no frame of reference to connecting plots. Problems can occur when attempting to verify the actual land area of such plots covered by this documentation.

Sor Kor Neung (Certificate of Possession)

This recognises that a person is in possession of land but the Certificate does not imply that there are any rights associated with the possession. Land with this documentation cannot be bought or sold, and may only be transferred to the direct heirs of the person who holds it

Por. Bor. Tor 6

This is documentation that all land must have in order for a tax number to be issued and tax to be paid upon the benefits of the land. It does not in anyway infer title, ownership or possessory right of the land, only that it has been assessed as taxable.

Sor Kor 1

This is the form required to notify the government of a possessory claim to a piece of land. This was introduced in December 1954 and was used by the government to verify claims upon the land with the eventual issuance of Nor. Sor 3 or Nor. Sor. 3 Gor certification.

Edited October 13, 2009 by drtreelove