Atm Theft- Where's The Baht!?

[phee nick]

Ok upset thai wife and sleepless mother in law situation and that is not good for me!

UK Nationwide flex account card, in wife's name, sent to Amnat Charoen.

For over 3 years, wife puts money in everry month, Mother-in-law takes it out.

Last weekend, M-I-L tried to withdraw 15,000 baht....says...trying to withdraw too much....pressed cancel...no cash, no receipt.

Checked account online from UK. Statement shows 15,000 withdrawn on that date.

Siam commercial say cannot check records as UK card.

Nationwide say nothing they can do unless wife fills out transaction dispute form, which she is reluctant to do as they want her to confirm it was her using the card (she has already told them she will be using the card regularly in thailand).

Police in Amnat say only wife can issue complaint. We are not going home until April.

Somrthing very fishy about all this, anyone else experienced anything similar, any advice on way to persue issue in the face of such incalcitrance and obfusctaion?

Someone , somewhere is taking the proverbial and it just can't be that we just take this as a fact of life.

M-I-L has always been told to check ATM looks kosher, have had experience of tampered ATMs before but this seems different and stinks to high heaven. Can you trust what the ATM tells you and do you have any comeback when you've been stolen from?

thanks for listening,

Phee Nick

[ballzafire]

I'd say query the M-I-L a little more. Her story is what sounds fishy...

[phee nick]

I'd say query the M-I-L a little more. Her story is what sounds fishy...

yes I know.

But believe me I am a true sceptic in such matters and my instinct in this is malfeasance within the bank, hence my feeling of frustration and my posting here.

After 5 years I am fully confident in the level of trust I have applied to in laws and this does not compute. It is money wife has earned working in a bakery shop in England..not my money (never is) and the M-I-L would never abuse the trust of her daughter.

100% sure problem is external to familial suspicion.

But I appreciate where you're coming from.

[cyb]

Nationwide say nothing they can do unless wife fills out transaction dispute form, which she is reluctant to do as they want her to confirm it was her using the card (she has already told them she will be using the card regularly in thailand).

The fact that it was your mil and not your wife using the card may go against you.

Most banks will frown on use of card by anyone other than the card holder.

Best of luck in resolving this.

I cannot comment further as never encountered this problem.

[richard_smith237]

Would a signed affidavit work next time you are back in the UK?

Nice use of large words by the way... I had to google them to know what they meant !

[Dave the Dude]

I used to work in a UK bank a while ago and suspect machines have not changed that much.

I believe the machine will have a way to check the time/amount&account of every withdrawal.

Dave

[Somrak]

Your wife have to complain within 30 days to the UK bank. She can do this by phone, Internet, ... After a short time they will send you a list with the cards transactions.

Then you can look how had accesss to the card at disputet times (Video ATM-machine). I am nearly sure it will besomeone in the familie.

Let send a new card with a new code!

[Chaimai]

I once experienced similar at SCB at Suvarnabhumi re 10,000 withdrawal.

SCB not helpful and said contact Nationwide. The transaction initially showed as 'blocked' on the day of the transaction but thankfully disappeared by day 3 and no debit ever appeared on the account.

I assume that your account is showing a physical withdrawal.

If this is the case, Dave the Dude is right - SCB CAN check their records (and would have to do if Nationwide instigated an 'enquiry'.

Two choices and in both cases your wife has to portray herself as being the person withdrawing the cash - if she is not prepared to do this then I would question the MIL loyalty.

In my 30 odd years in banking 99.9% of ATM withdrwal disputes involved someone in the family acting fraudulently. Not saying this is the case here but unless your wife wants to write-off 15,000 Baht she will have to do one of the following:-

1. Make the claim through Nationwide on the basis that SHE was at the ATM but returned to UK next day so could not challenge SCB. SCB will then have to check their ATM audit roll for that day (and may simply confirm that 15,000 was withdrawn at the appointed time).

2. Get your wife to phone the SCB branch and say that she is now back in UK but the ATM failed to give her money and she has only just noticed that her Nationwide account has been debited with 15,000 Baht. She will get a "Mai Roo" and "Mai Dai" but if she gets lucky in finding a helpful person they MAY just check for her. Thai to Thai works better.

No one will really want to take ownership of this. Nationwide should be best equipped to deal with but even they are puting obstacles in the way of doing business.

My conclusion is that SCB will just confirm (to your wife or Nationwide's enquiry) that 15,000 was withdrawn. So, either give it up now or give it try through Nationwide - you have nothing more to lose.

Good luck.

Edited October 17, 2009 by Chaimai

[Chaimai]

A quick thought - something that will avoid any potential family issues.

Assuming MIL only makes one withdrawal per month the exercice is costing you GBP 5 p.m. (150 Baht at SCB and 0.84% VISA charge passed on by Nationwide.

Why not consider opening a Halifix Reward account where you can transfer online (no paper) the GBP 300 p.m. to MIL's Thai Bank account.

I do a monthly transfer to my K Bank account and it costs GBP 9.50 - Halifax 'reward' me with GBP 5 bonus each month for transferring in a minimum of GBP 1,000.

Fantastic system and last week the funds arrived (and I could see on K Bank online banking) the same day.

[Geekfreaklover]

Does sound a bit dodgy. To maybe rule out the possibility that the MIL is pulling a fast one, tell her that you have contacted the bank and the police who have a close-circuit camera montioring the ATM. Her reaction should easily rule her out.

Does the bank have a camera?

[sinbin]

Maybe the MIL used a third party to get her money and they took advantage of a vunerable old lady ? In my experience of trying to get a straight answer out of a Thai I may as well try psising into the wind. I think the OP to right it off and forget it.

Edited October 17, 2009 by sinbin

[loong]

Maybe the MIL used a third party to get her money and they took advantage of a vunerable old lady ? In my experience of trying to get a straight answer out of a Thai I may as well try psising into the wind. I think the OP to right it off and forget it.

Your suspicion could well be valid. The Op should ask his MIL straight out if she went in person or sent somebody else. At the same time, make it be known that the ATMs have a camera and pursuing the matter further will mean that the bank will review the video of the transaction and that whoever withdrew the money would be charged with theft.

I could well imagine the MIL sending the card with someone else and that person trying to take an extra 1000 or 2. That would be denied as is over the 300 Pounds limit. They then try to take the 15,000 and this time it works. Temptation is too much for them and the fact that the first transaction was denied gives them the idea to report that the ATM said it was too much.

In all honesty, it's most likely that somebody withdrew the cash and if it actually was a cancelled transaction that appeared on the statement, it is usually credited a few days later.

[prakhonchai nick]

On more than one occasion, using my Nationwide flex card in a GSB ATM, the withdrawal was aborted by the machine before giving me the requested cash a minute or two later after re-entering the details

On checking my Nationwide account online later I have found each time 2 withdrawals and 1 credit to balance things off.

[Kitsch22]

I once experienced similar at SCB at Suvarnabhumi re 10,000 withdrawal.

SCB not helpful and said contact Nationwide. The transaction initially showed as 'blocked' on the day of the transaction but thankfully disappeared by day 3 and no debit ever appeared on the account.

I assume that your account is showing a physical withdrawal.

If this is the case, Dave the Dude is right - SCB CAN check their records (and would have to do if Nationwide instigated an 'enquiry'.

Two choices and in both cases your wife has to portray herself as being the person withdrawing the cash - if she is not prepared to do this then I would question the MIL loyalty.

In my 30 odd years in banking 99.9% of ATM withdrwal disputes involved someone in the family acting fraudulently. Not saying this is the case here but unless your wife wants to write-off 15,000 Baht she will have to do one of the following:-

1. Make the claim through Nationwide on the basis that SHE was at the ATM but returned to UK next day so could not challenge SCB. SCB will then have to check their ATM audit roll for that day (and may simply confirm that 15,000 was withdrawn at the appointed time).

2. Get your wife to phone the SCB branch and say that she is now back in UK but the ATM failed to give her money and she has only just noticed that her Nationwide account has been debited with 15,000 Baht. She will get a "Mai Roo" and "Mai Dai" but if she gets lucky in finding a helpful person they MAY just check for her. Thai to Thai works better.

No one will really want to take ownership of this. Nationwide should be best equipped to deal with but even they are puting obstacles in the way of doing business.

My conclusion is that SCB will just confirm (to your wife or Nationwide's enquiry) that 15,000 was withdrawn. So, either give it up now or give it try through Nationwide - you have nothing more to lose.

Good luck.

You have forgotten to include the rider: "If she follows my suggestion this may amount to an attempt by her to obtain money by deception, an offence carrying up to ten years' imprisonment upon conviction on indictment. She may wish to consider whether or not it is worth it for three hundred quid"

Edited October 17, 2009 by Kitsch22

[Chaimai]

I once experienced similar at SCB at Suvarnabhumi re 10,000 withdrawal.

SCB not helpful and said contact Nationwide. The transaction initially showed as 'blocked' on the day of the transaction but thankfully disappeared by day 3 and no debit ever appeared on the account.

I assume that your account is showing a physical withdrawal.

If this is the case, Dave the Dude is right - SCB CAN check their records (and would have to do if Nationwide instigated an 'enquiry'.

Two choices and in both cases your wife has to portray herself as being the person withdrawing the cash - if she is not prepared to do this then I would question the MIL loyalty.

In my 30 odd years in banking 99.9% of ATM withdrwal disputes involved someone in the family acting fraudulently. Not saying this is the case here but unless your wife wants to write-off 15,000 Baht she will have to do one of the following:-

1. Make the claim through Nationwide on the basis that SHE was at the ATM but returned to UK next day so could not challenge SCB. SCB will then have to check their ATM audit roll for that day (and may simply confirm that 15,000 was withdrawn at the appointed time).

2. Get your wife to phone the SCB branch and say that she is now back in UK but the ATM failed to give her money and she has only just noticed that her Nationwide account has been debited with 15,000 Baht. She will get a "Mai Roo" and "Mai Dai" but if she gets lucky in finding a helpful person they MAY just check for her. Thai to Thai works better.

No one will really want to take ownership of this. Nationwide should be best equipped to deal with but even they are puting obstacles in the way of doing business.

My conclusion is that SCB will just confirm (to your wife or Nationwide's enquiry) that 15,000 was withdrawn. So, either give it up now or give it try through Nationwide - you have nothing more to lose.

Good luck.

You have forgotten to include the rider: "If she follows my suggestion this may amount to an attempt by her to obtain money by deception, an offence carrying up to ten years' imprisonment upon conviction on indictment. She may wish to consider whether or not it is worth it for three hundred quid"

Kitsch22 - you sound like a right holier-than-thou prick !

The OP and his wife have been quite happy (like many others in Thailand) to breach Nationwide rules on the use of the Flex Account.

I was proposing the best practical solution for the attempted recovery of 15,000 Baht. If this involves a further white lie - so be it. So your advice would be "break the rules when you want to, but don't cry over spilt milk if something goes wrong".

Scaremongering phrases likes "10 years improsonment" and "upon indictment" have no place in this discussion. Get a life ! - do you think banks have the time to investigate every petty transaction or query ?

In this case money has 'prima facie' gone missing from their account - they have every right to pursue this.

[mca]

I used to work in a UK bank a while ago and suspect machines have not changed that much.

I believe the machine will have a way to check the time/amount&account of every withdrawal.

Dave

Plus the bank can compare the amount of money left in the machine to the amounts withdrawn on that day.

[thedi]

About 3 years ago I tried to withdraw 25'000 Baht with my ATM at my bank. The machine made noices of counting money for about 2 minutes - but no money came out. I then went inside the bank and called someone to come an look. When we came out - less than a minutes later - the ATM just spit out my money.

The bank official said it may have been a malfunction in the counting mechanism with old currency bank notes. This may result to recounting the money several times. This can last very long: 3 minutes are very long, when you wait in front of an ATM.

Maybe your mother in law gave up to early? In this case the next customer found the money there - ready to take...

Regards

Thedi

[Kitsch22]

I once experienced similar at SCB at Suvarnabhumi re 10,000 withdrawal.

SCB not helpful and said contact Nationwide. The transaction initially showed as 'blocked' on the day of the transaction but thankfully disappeared by day 3 and no debit ever appeared on the account.

I assume that your account is showing a physical withdrawal.

If this is the case, Dave the Dude is right - SCB CAN check their records (and would have to do if Nationwide instigated an 'enquiry'.

Two choices and in both cases your wife has to portray herself as being the person withdrawing the cash - if she is not prepared to do this then I would question the MIL loyalty.

In my 30 odd years in banking 99.9% of ATM withdrwal disputes involved someone in the family acting fraudulently. Not saying this is the case here but unless your wife wants to write-off 15,000 Baht she will have to do one of the following:-

1. Make the claim through Nationwide on the basis that SHE was at the ATM but returned to UK next day so could not challenge SCB. SCB will then have to check their ATM audit roll for that day (and may simply confirm that 15,000 was withdrawn at the appointed time).

2. Get your wife to phone the SCB branch and say that she is now back in UK but the ATM failed to give her money and she has only just noticed that her Nationwide account has been debited with 15,000 Baht. She will get a "Mai Roo" and "Mai Dai" but if she gets lucky in finding a helpful person they MAY just check for her. Thai to Thai works better.

No one will really want to take ownership of this. Nationwide should be best equipped to deal with but even they are puting obstacles in the way of doing business.

My conclusion is that SCB will just confirm (to your wife or Nationwide's enquiry) that 15,000 was withdrawn. So, either give it up now or give it try through Nationwide - you have nothing more to lose.

Good luck.

You have forgotten to include the rider: "If she follows my suggestion this may amount to an attempt by her to obtain money by deception, an offence carrying up to ten years' imprisonment upon conviction on indictment. She may wish to consider whether or not it is worth it for three hundred quid"

Kitsch22 - you sound like a right holier-than-thou prick !

The OP and his wife have been quite happy (like many others in Thailand) to breach Nationwide rules on the use of the Flex Account.

I was proposing the best practical solution for the attempted recovery of 15,000 Baht. If this involves a further white lie - so be it. So your advice would be "break the rules when you want to, but don't cry over spilt milk if something goes wrong".

Scaremongering phrases likes "10 years improsonment" and "upon indictment" have no place in this discussion. Get a life ! :jerk: - do you think banks have the time to investigate every petty transaction or query ?

In this case money has 'prima facie' gone missing from their account - they have every right to pursue this.

Not by telling lies or by equivalent dishonesty, they don't. The "white lie" to which you refer is otherwise known as "fraud". If you are going to incite someone (for which the inciter can cop the same penalty, by the way - do you think that TV would resist an order to reveal your identity?) to commit an offence that could carry serious consequences, then at least have the decency to warn them so that they may take an informed decision. Especially bearing in mind that the fraud you favoiur would be easy to detect and then impossible for the fraudster to deny.

And as "holier than thou" evidently means "more honest than thou" or at least "less criminal than thou" when talking to you, then I guess that I must accept that accolade.

My advice by the way would be to make a report that was 100% truthful and then press the claim hard (up to and including a complaint to the Financial Services Ombudsman if necessary) whereupon the complainant would have a good chance of getting her money back or failing that learning who really nicked the cash. All without any risk of having to discover at first hand the miserable state of the accommodation at Holloway Gaol.

[loong]

About 3 years ago I tried to withdraw 25'000 Baht with my ATM at my bank. The machine made noices of counting money for about 2 minutes - but no money came out. I then went inside the bank and called someone to come an look. When we came out - less than a minutes later - the ATM just spit out my money.

The bank official said it may have been a malfunction in the counting mechanism with old currency bank notes. This may result to recounting the money several times. This can last very long: 3 minutes are very long, when you wait in front of an ATM.

Maybe your mother in law gave up to early? In this case the next customer found the money there - ready to take...

Regards

Thedi

If that was the case, she wouldn't have received the ATM card back either - would she? I'm pretty sure that ATMs issue the money before returning the card. No mention of that in the OP.

[Chaimai]

Not by telling lies or by equivalent dishonesty, they don't. The "white lie" to which you refer is otherwise known as "fraud". If you are going to incite someone (for which the inciter can cop the same penalty, by the way - do you think that TV would resist an order to reveal your identity?) to commit an offence that could carry serious consequences, then at least have the decency to warn them so that they may take an informed decision. Especially bearing in mind that the fraud you favoiur would be easy to detect and then impossible for the fraudster to deny.

And as "holier than thou" evidently means "more honest than thou" or at least "less criminal than thou" when talking to you, then I guess that I must accept that accolade.

My advice by the way would be to make a report that was 100% truthful and then press the claim hard (up to and including a complaint to the Financial Services Ombudsman if necessary) whereupon the complainant would have a good chance of getting her money back or failing that learning who really nicked the cash. All without any risk of having to discover at first hand the miserable state of the accommodation at Holloway Gaol.

Sanctimonious prick to boot

I can assure you with 100% certainty that the bank would not entertain ANY claim where the card has been used outside the terms of issue i.e. "misuse" by an unauthorised 3rd party.

[kornsboy]

had same problem happened to me twice this year only with scb machines withdrew 10,000 bhat each time spat my card back after about a minute no money though went straight online to check bank details showed 10,000 bhat withdrawn phoned abbey card services about week later money back in the bank both times now i try to avoid scb machines

[Dave the Dude]

I used to work in a UK bank a while ago and suspect machines have not changed that much.

I believe the machine will have a way to check the time/amount&account of every withdrawal.

Dave

Plus the bank can compare the amount of money left in the machine to the amounts withdrawn on that day.

Sorry, the days of individual machine or Tills doing daily 'tilling up' agreements went out with the Ark.

The best bet is with a transaction printout within the machine.

I can assure you with 100% certainty that the bank would not entertain ANY claim where the card has been used outside the terms of issue i.e. "misuse" by an unauthorised 3rd party.

I can also confirm the above statement is true IMHO from Chaimai, especially as we are both ex-Bank Managers

Dave

Edited October 18, 2009 by Dave the Dude

[Kitsch22]

I can also confirm the above statement is true IMHO from Chaimai, especially as we are both ex-Bank Managers

Dave

Then would you also go along with him in saying that a fraudulent claim is the way to go for the OP's wife? And at the same time (given your past work experience) can you confirm the figure for the minimum expense to a bank (win or lose) in defending a complaint made to the offiice of the Financial Services Ombudsman? [Hint: that expense significantly exceeds three hundred pounds.]

[Dave the Dude]

I can also confirm the above statement is true IMHO from Chaimai, especially as we are both ex-Bank Managers

Dave

Then would you also go along with him in saying that a fraudulent claim is the way to go for the OP's wife? And at the same time (given your past work experience) can you confirm the figure for the minimum expense to a bank (win or lose) in defending a complaint made to the offiice of the Financial Services Ombudsman? [Hint: that expense significantly exceeds three hundred pounds.]

Hi Kitsch22

I like to have a (fairly) clear conscience and sleep soundly at night . This sounds like an ideal opportunity to go all Thai and say.........Up to You!

I cannot confirm FSO figures because I am not the slightest bit interested in them

Good Luck

Dave

[mca]

I used to work in a UK bank a while ago and suspect machines have not changed that much.

I believe the machine will have a way to check the time/amount&account of every withdrawal.

Dave

Plus the bank can compare the amount of money left in the machine to the amounts withdrawn on that day.

Sorry, the days of individual machine or Tills doing daily 'tilling up' agreements went out with the Ark.

The best bet is with a transaction printout within the machine.

Is that true Dave? My wife used an SCB ATM in BKK. Similar to some other poster's situations. Machine whirred, please take cash, no cash forthcoming, card and receipt spat out showing 10k baht deducted from her a/c. She contacted the bank, explained the situation and they said they'd check the balance of cash in the machine compared to the withdrawals for that day. The money was credited back to her a/c so I'd assume it all checked out.

[Dave the Dude]

Is that true Dave? My wife used an SCB ATM in BKK. Similar to some other poster's situations. Machine whirred, please take cash, no cash forthcoming, card and receipt spat out showing 10k baht deducted from her a/c. She contacted the bank, explained the situation and they said they'd check the balance of cash in the machine compared to the withdrawals for that day. The money was credited back to her a/c so I'd assume it all checked out.

I would think they took that action solely because there was a disputed entry ON THAT DAY, so they checked the machine.

I do understand that my experience is from another country but most machines(& tasks) are usually very simular.

When I worked with cash there was individual tills/machines and you were responsible for your cash daily. Now each Branch has bulk agreements weekly, so there is no way of telling who is accurate(but it saves time).

As previously mentioned, if there is a dispute on that day, proceedures may change then and further investigation made.

Dave

[mca]

I see. Cheers.

[Chaimai]

Is that true Dave? My wife used an SCB ATM in BKK. Similar to some other poster's situations. Machine whirred, please take cash, no cash forthcoming, card and receipt spat out showing 10k baht deducted from her a/c. She contacted the bank, explained the situation and they said they'd check the balance of cash in the machine compared to the withdrawals for that day. The money was credited back to her a/c so I'd assume it all checked out.

A CURRENT Thai bank manager could probably give a better answer than Dave or I. However, in the UK till balancing (including ATMs) is an old fashioned art. In fairness the ATM machines are remarkably accurate given the volume of transactions. An enquiry about a withdrawal will be responded to by reference to the ATM's audit roll rather than any shorts/overs in the cash in the machine (which may be a weekly exercise).

In many countries the ATM maintenance is left to a third party i.e. Securicor.

As in most cases, when making an enquiry/complaint if you shout loud enough (or more likely are a 'more valued customer') you are more likely to get a positive outcome.

The banks' activities are based on 'risk management'. They will not spend 1 million Pounds a year accurately keeping ATM records if they only have to pay out, say, GBP 500k in claims.

For example, do you think they actually go to the effort of looking at every cheque you write out ??

Edited October 19, 2009 by Chaimai

[Chaimai]

Then would you also go along with him in saying that a fraudulent claim is the way to go for the OP's wife? And at the same time (given your past work experience) can you confirm the figure for the minimum expense to a bank (win or lose) in defending a complaint made to the offiice of the Financial Services Ombudsman? [Hint: that expense significantly exceeds three hundred pounds.]

Hey, "Poor taste" - who is this mythical "Financial Services Ombudsman" ?

Someone who has allowed the 'fraudulent' use of their card is unlikely to complain to the Financial Ombudsman Service when a bank tells them to <deleted> off.

If you really want to inflate the bank's overheads (which the customer will ultimately pay for) then write to the bank's Chairman to complain about such decision and throw in poor service against a named employee AND possible racist comments against the Thai wife. That should get them running around and it is no less fanciful than you alluding to an ombudsman.

[dudemeister]

My story:

[Cant remember which bank it was]

I approached what was a small booth and counter setup, which was staffed by 2 female bank tellers. Sort of thing they use for a Bureau de Change or maybe see inside a shopping mall. One wall of the booth had an ATM machine, which I attempted to withdraw cash with my foreign bank card. I pumped in my pin number and the amount of cash required, and waited. Card returns, no money comes out.

Now, dopey me, was not paying too much attention to what was being displayed on the screen. So I wasnt 100% sure if the card was declined or not accepted or something. I'll try again. Stuck card in again, anxiously peering at the screen. There was a message along the lines of - daily limit already withdrawn - or whatever the term was. But i knew this was my first visit to ATM that day, so it must have deducted my earlier request after all.

Three steps to my right, and I am quickly explaining to the young lady in the booth my concerns. Almost as if it was a common complaint she nonchalantly said I would have to come back later in the evening when the bank guy opens the ATM.

And this is the senseless part - we are in the international departure side of Swampy airport. I've checked through. I am clearly farang. Its obvious I am waiting for my flight out. How the hel_l can I come back maybe 4 or 5 hours later in the evening? So I asked the girl to give me all the details of the booth, its location as identified to the bank, ATM machine number, phone numbers etc.

Couple of days later in Dubai, I logon to my online account and low and behold the money had been deducted. Now the paranoidial side of me was thinking - good scam. Just before farang-otang catches his flight out, screw his card. If he cant be bothered to chase up later with his bank - bonus!

[Reminded me of a similar ploy years ago, where the fruit machine engineer would block one of the coin tubes inside the machine with tissue paper, resulting in a nice wodge of 50p coins lining the inards of the machine].

Anyway, I phoned my home bank, gave them the details I had, and they chased it up with the Thai bank - and returned my losses.

Then again - it could all have been just an innocent machine glitch. But thats what Thailand does to you!