Bangkok Bank

[jfchandler]

Some might suggest pit bull, when it comes to financial matters... I wouldn't argue about that...

Certainly not Golden Retriever

<<<<<

Edited September 7, 2010 by jfchandler

[jfchandler]

Jazzbo, you're right about those reports.. Fortunately, in almost two years now, I've never had the misfortune of that happening to me... Fingers crossed...

One disadvantage of AEON ATMs, I'll freely admit, is that they often are standalone and don't have an AEON office with staff attached. In the event of a malfunction, that may complicate matters some.

A person in that situation would have to call the AEON phone number listed on their ATM machines, and some reports here have suggested those conversations haven't been particularly helpful.

On the other hand, I'm not sure how that situation compares with a comparable one when a regular Thai bank machine does a similar malfunction.

As for living in BKK, it's not the cheapest place in country, but it does have a variety of advantages...

There have several reports herein about AEON ATM malfunctions ... But using them to save the 150 baht I guess is OK unless you spend 160 baht getting there...

However -- after having lived there for about 6 months -- anyone who chooses to lo live in Bangkok is IMHO incurring unnecessary fees on a daily basis.

[ianguygil]

I am an exec in Bangkok Bank. I have made this clear in this forum and in this very thread

I contribute to this forum not to get more business, that is not my role, it is to try to extend a helping hand to people (mainly foreigners) who may have questions about or problems with our services. And I do this in my own time, on lunch breaks or when I get home.

And when I do get involved I always deal with the specifics of the issues offline for reasons of confidentiality. If people want to post the details of this on the forum this is their choice.

Edited September 7, 2010 by ianguygil

[jfchandler]

Thanks for clarifying that, Ian... I had assumed as much, but didn't know for certain.

It's great that you're willing, on your own, to try to offer assistance here to BKK Bank customers and others on your own time... You deserve kudos for that, and I don't see folks from the other Thai banks similarly contributing...

My only interest here is to stick to the facts, to challenge those making claims to support them with facts that others can see and replicate, and hopefully to raise the fiscal awareness level of everyone involved.

I have no gripe with you or BKK Bank, except when I believe you (or anyone else) is straying from the provable, demonstrable facts...

[ianguygil]

I am pretty confident that all the things I have said and proven and demonstrable.

The variables for all to consider are the amount of the transfer, the frequency of the transfer, their cash position (how far in advance they can fund), their proximity to one of these non-Pool ATMs you mention, and how much they view their time is worth to get to such an ATM if it is not just around the corner. Each person can then make their own decisions. And if they decide to use a Bangkok Bank ATM the 150 Baht fee will apply as with all ATM Pool machines. And if they decide to use our funds transfer services in the USA, UK, Japan, South Korea or Israel they can save on the normal SWIFT transfer fees, and the fees are clearly stated on our site.

I have no idea of your specifics, and as you are not our customer I really can not help you

All contacts via PM are always welcome and treated in a confidential manner. I prove first I am with the Bank then I refer internally to other parties to resolve any issues, or explain what happened if other banks are involved as is often the case.

Good luck.

Edited September 8, 2010 by ianguygil

[pkrv]

Hi Ian,

From a UK perspective - sorry I know nothing of the other countries - I see exactly the same fees as a UK SWIFT transfer - For example I can make a GBP transfer from Nationwide to my BBL account for 20GBP and would still incur the 500 THB fee at the Thai end.

The benefit to me of using the correspondent UK branch of BBL is I can just push a button on my UK account to directly transfer funds. Though I understand that Nationwide now has an online mechanism, but I have not used this.

From my perspective SWIFT could use some competition. But I don't know the details of how the UK BBL correspondent branch transfers to my local Thai account.

Certainly charging the same as SWIFT, but without the global clout of SWIFT, (for example I can initiate a global SWIFT TRACE) may not be the best marketing ploy

[ianguygil]

PKRV,

I think normally banks charge for SWIFT payments at both ends. That is where the "charges to beneficiary" and converse codes come from. But as an ex REUTERS guy you will know that.

So while there may be a 20 GBP charge on one end you may end up with a charge larger than 500 baht on the other end. However, I will send your comments to our GPSD people (Global Payments) as they need to know how customers feel about this. I sincerely feel that the voice of the customer makes us better, as often large banks tend to be in our own world without this. So all feedback, even complaints, is always welcome as long as it is civil and creative as yours always are.

I will let you know what they say. As you know, I am a "propeller head" and not a marketing person

[NovaBlue05]

Interesting thread. I certainly haven't put this much thought into it. I figured it best to leave my money in the US and make one large transfer into my local BKK Bnk to cover the Visa requirements. I would then live off that banking locally and topping it off once a year in time for visa re-new.

[jfchandler]

Ian, I wasn't in need of, or soliciting your assistance. I am, however, pretty conclusively demonstrating below that, contrary to what you've said, BKK Bank's international transfer rates do not necessarily provide the most economical solution to accessing funds in Thailand. And the bank's exchange rate is not superior to what the best ATM transactions can yield. Details, as opposed to undocumented assertions, provided below.

Re the discussion we were having above about BKK Bank's international transfer exchange rates vs. those of no fee U.S. ATM cards... I'm never one to shy away from a challenge or to be afraid to challenge my own assumptions...

So I went back today and re-tested the same kind of test I've done before, and came up with the same result...

Below, as I previously recounted, I did a series ATM withdrawals using three different no-fee U.S. ATM cards here on Sept. 2 using an AEON ATM--all back to back within a few minutes of each other.

As I recounted below, the net/real exchange rate for all three turned out to be 31.14, and the IER rate for that day according to the BOT web site was 31.18.

Today, I went back to the BKK Bank web site and looked at their foreign exchange rate for Sept. 2, for buying TT, which is I assume the rate used for their international transfers... And I found a rate of 31.05 for Sept. 2, as shown in the image below. And that is, of course, before you add in BKK Bank's New York and Thailand transfer fees.

Now, to be fair, the rates on these things do jump around day to day, and bank to bank within Thailand... But the result above confirms the same result I've had in the past when I've done the same comparisons...

So, take your pick, 31.14 baht to the $ and no fees with the right U.S. bank card, or 31.05 baht to the $ minus added BKK Bank fees. Which would you rather have in your wallet???

And here was my latest test re U.S. debit cards, on Sept 2, 2010...

OK, I think I can now confirm that both Schwab Bank and Capital One, when you use their VISA debit cards, are NOT charging any foreign currency fee and NOT doing anything nefarious with the transaction exchange rates.

Tonight, I did three back-to-back transactions with cards at an AEON ATM, as follows:

--Schwab VISA debit, 1 debit entry only, 31.14 exchange rate.

--Capital One VISA debit, 1 debit entry only, 31.14 exchange rate.

--and then a small bank MC debit, 1 debit entry only, 31.14 rate.

For comparison purposes, the Bank of Thailand posted Interbank Exchange Rate for today (9/2) was 31.18... So that pretty much tells you that Schwab and Capital One, in terms of exchange rates and not charging a foreign currency fee, are good, solid replacements for E*Trade.

[pkrv]

Interesting thread. I certainly haven't put this much thought into it. I figured it best to leave my money in the US and make one large transfer into my local BKK Bnk to cover the Visa requirements. I would then live off that banking locally and topping it off once a year in time for visa re-new.

Same, Same.

There are two topics in play here cash point withdrawls, and real cash. My electricity bill alone for two weeks is around 8,000 THB and paid by direct debit from my BBL passbook savings account. I cannot operate in Bangkok with just cash withdrawls.

[jfchandler]

PKRV, good example of a situation where the ACH or wire transfer may make more economic and convenience sense than ATM withdrawals...

That said, not all of us are spending 16K a month on electricity... Have you had your power meter checked for accuracy lately??? Or seen a long extension cord running to the house next-door???

:jap:

[JimGant]

paid by direct debit from my BBL passbook savings account. I cannot operate in Bangkok with just cash withdrawals.

I think that's true for most of us here. Direct debits, for my CAT, TOT, electricity, etc. are more than nice, and something I got used to in the States. Also, there certainly are times we need a large amount of cash for something, like a new car. Having a Thai bank account is a must (or at least the easiest way) to accommodate this. Fee free ATM cards for walking-around-money are, I hope we concluded, the cheapest way to go for such. But, we also need that Thai bank account.

And, I think I heard JFC mention he had one? How do you fill it up? Or, is it just a SWIFT wire for the occasional big purchase? Direct debits? (And, I'm sure -- almost -- that you don't keep 800k sitting idly to accommodate yearly extensions.....)

Another subject....it certainly isn't cheap, at 20 GBPs, to use BB London to funnel money to Thailand. In fact, it's three times as expensive as the equivalent transfer using BB NY, which is also three times as fast. There's gotta be a better way for you Brits....

In this recent thread HERE Halifax Bank is shown to be only 4.50 GBPs to transfer -- quickly -- money to Thailand. Unfortunately, Halifax Bank apparently doesn't extend this method to Thailand (which, however, hasn't been a show stopper, as the thread tells). Anyway, BB London doesn't look to be a very efficient method for money transfer (sorry Ian). But, having said that, finding a better way -- legally -- seems to be vexing.....

not all of us are spending 16K a month on electricity

JFC, the lad's a Brit... electric broilers plus fish 'n' chips adds up

[pkrv]

JFC, the lad's a Brit... electric broilers plus fish 'n' chips adds up

Ha

[jazzbo]

Kuhn J -- Living in Bangkok has its advantages ... and I guess being from LA you are used to it ... of course great air quality during the monsoon.:

[jazzbo]

OOPS 2x

Edited September 8, 2010 by jazzbo

[jfchandler]

Jim, good and useful questions.. Let me respond..

I have multiple Thai bank accounts that I use for paying local bills. Pay all my BKK utility and service bills by online banking thru those Thai bank accounts. Replenish the Thai accounts once a month thru a single AEON ATM withdrawal from one of my U.S. accounts, whereupon I walk down the mall aisle and deposit the same funds I just withdrew into my Thai accounts using their Cash Deposit machines. Whole process takes about 5 minutes and one ATM visit per month, usually when I'm out shopping.

Re the retirement visa funds issue, I satisfy that thru the monthly income method. But even if I didn't, I'd NEVER keep 800,000 baht ($25,000+ U.S.) sitting around in a Thai bank account earning next to nothing, when I've got it earning 4-5% FDIC insured in the U.S. And even if I couldn't satisfy the full amount for retirement via the monthly income method, I'd use the mixed method (monthly income plus Thai bank deposits) and keep the Thai bank deposits amount as small as possible.

You can be DARNED sure about that... I must be a pauper... I can cover all of my monthly Thai bills, excluding rent, for just a fraction of what PKRV is spending in two weeks on electricity... And I thought I led a life of luxury here...

But, we also need that Thai bank account. And, I think I heard JFC mention he had one? How do you fill it up? Or, is it just a SWIFT wire for the occasional big purchase? Direct debits? (And, I'm sure -- almost -- that you don't keep 800k sitting idly to accommodate yearly extensions.....)

not all of us are spending 16K a month on electricity

JFC, the lad's a Brit... electric broilers plus fish 'n' chips adds up

Maybe he should invite me over for dinner... Just pass on the mushy peas, though...

[jfchandler]

Good point, Jazzbo...

Actually, the air is a lot better in L.A. these days that it was when I was a kid growing up there... the result of some serious air quality management regulations...

But then again, it strikes me the air quality now in BKK is a lot better than when I first started coming here as a visitor 7 years ago, back before BTS and MRT... That said, there's still a lot of particulate stuff in the air...

I figure, my lungs will just think I moved back to L.A.!

Kuhn J -- Living in Bangkok has its advantages ... and I guess being from LA you are used to it ... of course great air quality during the monsoon.:

[jfchandler]

Hmm... a day later, and still no answer or advice on this forthcoming... Maybe I needed to ask and then add... Please... Please... Please.... Mr. Banking Guy! Do enlighten everyone...

Ian, maybe then you can take your vast banking knowledge, and dual citizenship, and advise here in the thread on what the best/most economical UK bank card is for use in Thailand...

That would be of some practical help to the Brits... and would enable a meaningful comparison for them of how BKK Bank's transfer process compares...

Except... ooops... providing that info just might mean they'd use BKK Bank for less of their business...

Having both American and British citizenship, and having worked in both US and UK banks before Bangkok bank, I can be insulted on both sides if you want

[ianguygil]

Actually, I think I have answered this many times. It depends on the criteria I have already stated more than once, including once earlier today. There is clearly no rule which will cover everybody. And I would say those reading this thread know the options and will make their own choices based on their particular situation.

You seem to have found the sweet spot for you, and that is just fine with me.

[jfchandler]

Ian, I find that hard to accept, and beg to disagree...

The best card for most everyone (Brits included) would be the one with the lowest fees and best exchange rates for international transfers and foreign ATM withdrawals...

Us Americans recently posted here on TV the results of a survey of American cards that clearly showed which ones are best in that regard. It's just a matter of mathematics. I can't quite believe Brits wouldn't benefit from a similar assessment...

But perhaps your advice on banking only extends to solutions where BKK Bank is the provider...

Actually, I think I have answered this many times. It depends on the criteria I have already stated more than once, including once earlier today. There is clearly no rule which will cover everybody. And I would say those reading this thread know the options and will make their own choices based on their particular situation.

You seem to have found the sweet spot for you, and that is just fine with me.

[JimGant]

whereupon I walk down the mall aisle and deposit the same funds I just withdrew into my Thai accounts using their Cash Deposit machines. Whole process takes about 5 minutes

You're a braver man than me. I worry about having my ATM card 'eaten' (and thus why I only use my local bank's ATM machine on a routine basis). But, the thought of sticking my hard earned cash into a machine -- and then seeing a "tilt" -- is truly terrifying.

Lemme see. You wanna new Accord. It's 2M baht. Five minutes between Aeon machine and Cash Deposit machine. 25k per withdrawal. Need 80 withdrawals to collect 2M baht. Back and forth equals 10 minutes. Thus, 800 minutes, or over 13 hours. Man, that new Accord is gonna feel great!

Ok, I'm trying to get you to say -- I would put the fee free card away, forget Aeon -- and do a SWIFT wire transfer, or maybe even an ACH transfer. Common. You can say it....

[jfchandler]

Come on Jim!!! Now I know you're joshing me... Of course, I've said it here MANY times...

For times when BIG, SINGLE cash amounts are required, ACH or wire transfers are the clear choice...

I'm willing to trust Thai ATMs and cash deposit machines up to a point... But multiple multiple pulls and walking around even short distances in Thailand with large wads of cash just isn't smart.

Now, if I was doing that, I wouldn't get as good a return/exchange rate on my funds as I would if somehow I could magically expand the single pull withdrawal limit of Thai ATMs... But I can't, so for that and personal safety reasons, I'd suck it up and give the Thai bank their cut...

But of course, you already knew that... Just needling me to say it... Where's my new Accord. I'm waiting!!!

Lemme see. You wanna new Accord. It's 2M baht. Five minutes between Aeon machine and Cash Deposit machine. 25k per withdrawal. Need 80 withdrawals to collect 2M baht. Back and forth equals 10 minutes. Thus, 800 minutes, or over 13 hours. Man, that new Accord is gonna feel great!

Ok, I'm trying to get you to say -- I would put the fee free card away, forget Aeon -- and do a SWIFT wire transfer, or maybe even an ACH transfer. Common. You can say it....

[JimGant]

[jfchandler]

OK... Since I DON'T work for BKK Bank and thus am entirely free to talk about and consider every and any service and provider, let me throw in two pieces of info...

One is a partial chart from the Flyer Guide web site that has a couple of comparisons re UK card rates, though I notice they don't include the Halifax item Jim Gant mentioned earlier... Too bad the Nationwide fees are rising Nov. 1, according to the web site. But the info looks like it's a pretty small list... I gotta think there are more UK banking options available than those...

And then the familiar comparison of U.S. credit card foreign currency fees, ranging from 0% to 3% depending on which bank/card you use... Yes, there are 0% (foreign currency fee-free) U.S. credit cards available, thanks very much!

And here, I see, seems to be a much much fuller list of UK credit cards and their foreign currency rates... There's A LOT of different credit cards cited there, and I see a couple 0% options...

So I'd think there's gotta be a similar list of bank ATM card foreign currency rates for the UK somewhere..

I would have hoped we would have seen these kinds of comparisons posted already by the UK guys here...

Edited September 8, 2010 by jfchandler

[Pib]

Good info. And I think those percentage fees for baht from an ATM machine are "sometimes" calculated/reflected in the exchange rate you get (excluding the separate ATM fee the Thai bank ATM machine is going to charge...like 150 baht) versus appearing as a separate fee.

The reason I say this is because a few weeks ago I used my Bank of America ATM card to get 3000 baht from a Bangkok Bank ATM (just to use my BOA ATM card at least once a year to ensure it stays active) and the USD charge for that 3000 baht that hit my BOA account basically calculated out to an exchange rate that was 3% below the Bangkok Bank TT rate. In your chart, it shows BOA charges a 3% transaction fee. Or, said another way, that 3% charge appeared to be "within" the BOA exchange rate given. Or, maybe, BOA just has sucky ATM foreign currency exchange rates which equates to effectively charging a 3% fee. The additional 150 baht ATM usage charge from Bangkok Bank showed up as a separate charge.

Grand summary: banks can fee (hidden and unhidden) a person to the poor house.

[jfchandler]

And here's another interesting web site with a lot of info comparing UK bank cards in terms of traveling abroad...

http://www.moneysavi...ap-travel-money

I see the web site has the following blurb:

Load-free debit card (London only). New high street player Metro bank charges no foreign exchange loading or cash withdrawal fees on the card that comes with it's current account. However, you have to go to its one London branch in Holborn to get one (its opening more in future, but all within the M25 area).

In looking at Metro Bank's current account disclosures, they appear to be saying they'll handle foreign transactions made with their MC logo at the MC network rate, period, no surcharge. And 17.50 pounds per Swift transfer. But then again, it seems one of the key figures behind this bank is an American!!!!

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/6b7aa94c-9b1b-11df-ae58-00144feab49a.html

And with that, I'm gonna stop as far as the UK is concerned, because I'm not a Brit, and I'm getting into deep waters here...

Edited September 8, 2010 by jfchandler

[jfchandler]

Glad you were only doing it to keep your BofA card alive... though I rarely use mine, and have never had them try to pull the plug.

While I was a steady BofA customer back in the U.S.A. due to their omnipresent branch and ATM network, using a BofA card abroad has got to be one of the WORST financial decisions an American could possibly make... For expats, BofA fees make extortion sound appealing...

Good info. And I think those percentage fees for baht from an ATM machine are "sometimes" calculated/reflected in the exchange rate you get (excluding the separate ATM fee the Thai bank ATM machine is going to charge...like 150 baht) versus appearing as a separate fee.

The reason I say this is because a few weeks ago I used my Bank of America ATM card to get 3000 baht from a Bangkok Bank ATM (just to use my BOA ATM card at least once a year to ensure it stays active) and the USD charge for that 3000 baht that hit my BOA account basically calculated out to an exchange rate that was 3% below the Bangkok Bank TT rate. In your chart, it shows BOA charges a 3% transaction fee. Or, said another way, that 3% charge appeared to be "within" the BOA exchange rate given. Or, maybe, BOA just has sucky ATM foreign currency exchange rates which equates to effectively charging a 3% fee. The additional 150 baht ATM usage charge from Bangkok Bank showed up as a separate charge.

Grand summary: banks can fee (hidden and unhidden) a person to the poor house.

[pkrv]

You can be DARNED sure about that... I must be a pauper... I can cover all of my monthly Thai bills, excluding rent, for just a fraction of what PKRV is spending in two weeks on electricity... And I thought I led a life of luxury here...

I'm not sure what the waterfall costs, but I can tell you my local corner shop is Central's flagship store - does that help?

http://www.theparkresidence.co.th/main.asp

[jfchandler]

Every time I used to use my BoifA debit card abroad years ago, I'd get three separate charges to my account...

1 for the actual purchase.

2 a flat transaction fee

3 a foreign currency conversion fee by %

From the BofA web site:

Non–Bank of America atm Fee for: Withdrawals, transfers and balance inquiries at a non–Bank of America atm located in a foreign country $5.00 each

Important Information

The non-Bank of America ATM fees do not apply at some ATMs located outside the United States. You will not pay a transaction fee when you use ATMs of our Global Alliance partner banks in the following countries:

• Barclays (United Kingdom)
• BNP Paribas (France)
• China Construction Bank (China)
• Deutsche Bank (Germany)
• Santander Serfin (Mexico)
• Scotiabank (Canada)
• Westpac (Australia and New Zealand)

Non-participating banks may charge additional fees.

Here they talk about BofA's 3% foreign currency conversion fee for BofA credit cards...

http://factsaboutfee...ansaction-fees/

Here they talk about their $5 fee for using a BofA ATM card outside the U.S. and their affiliate banks

http://factsaboutfee...-fees/atm-fees/

I can't find a separate reference to their ATM card foreign currency fee any more, so perhaps they've simply taken to dicing it out of the exchange rate they offer.

Edited September 8, 2010 by jfchandler

[jfchandler]

Hey PKRV, I'm really your neighbor, in a kind of nearby, downtrodden common man's kind of way...

And I do like shopping there with my no fee ATM cards... Makes buying those imported Aussie steaks at Central Chidlom a bit less painful....

You can be DARNED sure about that... I must be a pauper... I can cover all of my monthly Thai bills, excluding rent, for just a fraction of what PKRV is spending in two weeks on electricity... And I thought I led a life of luxury here...

I'm not sure what the waterfall costs, but I can tell you my local corner shop is Central's flagship store - does that help?

http://www.theparkre....co.th/main.asp