Water Pump Problem

[JusMe]

I need a pump as the municipal water supply isn't too reliable, either for pressure or even constant flow.

So, as I don't need a lot, I bought and had installed the Hitachi WM-P130GP

Flow and pressure are fine, but although the pump is supposed to have an automatic switch that engages and disengages the pump in unison with water tap operation, it turns itself on and off every few minutes.

This runs for just a few seconds, but as it happens so regularly, even overnight when there's no demand for water (i.e. no tap or toilet or water needed at all) it does get more than annoying, both for the electricity used and the noise. Wait a couple of minutes, and it will do it again.

My worker has looked at it, and can't figure out anything. We've called Hitachi and had an unsatisfactory response. I don't understand much of it, but it clearly has solved the problem.

We have checked the pipes carefully, so there are no leaks.

Any ideas on how to get this thing running as it should?

[Crossy]

There's a good chance that the pressure tank has lost its air-space (vital to correct operation).

There should be directions in the manual, failing that it goes something like this:-

With the pump off and the isolating valves closed open the drain at the bottom of the pump, at the same time open the air valve which will be on top of the pressure tank. When water stops coming out close the drain and air valves, open the isolating valves and power up.

Hopefully problem solved

Let us know if it fixes the issue.

[JohnC]

A friend had the same problem after many headaches testing everything, i.e. isolated each shower in turn etc it was eventually traced to an underground leak from a garden tap!

[JusMe]

The only manual I've got is the installation manual, and it's in Thai.

I've copied your instructions, Crossy, and used Google Translation to put them into Thai.

The only pressure tank in the pump that I saw in the installation manual seemed to have nitrogen in it. (That label was English)

I'll show them to my worker when he returns. Not sure where he's gone, but he did say he'd return shortly.

I'll keep up the thread, and post progress. Not sure if it will help, but here's a jpeg of the page in the manual that shows the pressure tank in the pump.

Edited November 2, 2009 by JusMe

[MikeyIdea]

First check the air as Crossy writes. Most likely the problem will not be there but with a leak somewhere though. Take an end-pipe and put it just after the pump outlet (to isolate the pump from the rest of the piping), and if the pump builds up the pressure and then stops (does not turn itself on and off every few minutes) then you know you have what easily over 50% of all house holds in Thailand have, leaky piping

[Namphonny]

It depends on how you have connected it and whether you have a check valve installed but you could be pumping back into the supply.

[Artisi]

Sounds like a leak somewhere in the system as already pointed out and it can be exacerbated by the loss of air over the water in the tank as pointed out by crossy. You need to isolate the pump electrically and from from the supply and discharge pipework, it is handy to have a valve on both sides of the tank which you close and then drain the tank of all water, close the drain hole and open the valves again, re-instate power and the pump should run, build up pressure and then shut down, if it keeps hunting on and off on a short cycle there is a leak somewhere.

[JusMe]

Still waiting for my worker to return.

I've used a stop watch, and it starts up every 132 seconds. That sounds like quite a major leak from my ignorant perspective. And we haven't been able to find a drop around any of the pipes or faucets or toilet or any outlet. I would think that restarting in that short time would be quite a distinctive outflow.

Anyway, wait for my worker - I really don't want to try anything on my own. I'm using Google Translations and hope he can figure out what everyone is saying.

[Nowhereman60]

I had the same problem as you describe and it was a broken pipe underground. Luck for me it was right where the pipe when from the pump into the ground so very easy to fix.

[ignis]

Get a wood stick or a length of doweling......... where there is a connection eg; tap, toilet, shower any other pipe or connection you can see, then when the pump starts listen.. put wood to ear and to pipe/connections around the house...... if there is a gurgling noise then you have a leak..

Did you have anything built on to the house? kitchen moved and broke a joint.

In my house found the problem under the downstairs bathroom floor. Buildings here move/settle... about 4 years ago the built in phone line cable stopped working.......... built in TV Ariel stopped working about 2 years ago

[Bobr]

I had the same problem recently and it was a small leak in the toilet. Too small to hear but if you looked real carefully you could see a small trickle in the bowl water. Fixed that and the pump stopped going on and off all night. Any loss of pressure in the system will cause this problem.

[nonthaburial]

It definately sounds like a pressure problem. In my case the pump is set to 28psi, when the tank pressure drops below that the pump activates to reinstate that pressure. Almost sure you have a leak somewhere

[JusMe]

Still waiting. From the postings, I'm anticipating a leak, but sure hope it isn't.

Nowhereman60, you were lucky to have it close enough to repair easily. I dread the thought of having to rip up floors and walls to try to find a leak.

Ignis, you asked, "Did you have anything built on to the house? kitchen moved and broke a joint." That could be an explanation. I had a bathtub ripped out and replaced with a shower, and the inlet pipes had to be added or adjusted to go from the bathtub to the shower heater. Then I had a kitchen sink installed, and obviously water inlet to that, through, I think, the wall, so there could be a leak somewhere in all that, if not underground.

Bobr, I did check the toilet carefully and there's not the slightest ripple on the surface of the water in the bowl, so wherever the leak might be, it's not there.

I'm horrified at the idea of ripping something up in search of what could be just a small leak. At the moment, as the pump and switch are right outside my bedroom window, I'm thinking of getting that switch put inside rather than outside, so i can simply turn it on in the morning and off at night. Wouldn't be using too much electricity, and if there's a leak, let it leak!

[Rimmer]

Can you check the numbers on the water meter? If they are moving you have a leak.

[JusMe]

Rimmer,

I've looked at it, and haven't been able to see it move, but that doesn't mean it doesn't. They're not the most precise of instruments, eh?

I will take a good careful check of it before I go to bed tonight, and then first thing in the morning to see if there's any significant change.

Still waiting, and leaning more towards moving that switch inside the bedroom for daily use. That would cut the electricity use, which would be pretty small anyway, although not the water leak. Not sure how much that would add up to over a month.

[lopburi3]

The feed(s) to your tolet should have a control valve that you can turn off - that is the best way to check them as it can be very hard to see in the tank itself sometimes. As said previously there should be a valve immediately after the pump so you can easily check if pump or beyond when this happens - and it always happens at some point. But every two minutes is either a major leak or your pressure on/off are set the same on the pump - but a pump man should be checking that.

[lopburi3]

You are pumping from a supply tank I hope? You did not seem to mention it and pump should never be attached directly. City water fills a tank that you then pump from.

[manjara]

Ours does the same thing, but it is odd that the Thais never batt an eyelid. I'm the only one who seems to care at all.

I'm sure it's a leak somewhere, but our pipes are such spaghetti, it's hard to find the problem.

I would love to pay someone to overhaul all the plumbing, but there are no workmen here who would know their arse from their elbow, and we would end up with the same mess.

If anyone knows someone decent in the Phayao, Chiang Rai area, please let me know

[JusMe]

He's returned, just as I determined, using lopburi3's method - so damned simple, why didn't all of us figure out that basic reasoning - just turn off the valve between the pump and the house, and wait. Pump still hasn't gone on since I did that.

So, unfortunately, we've got a leak. Now the problem is to find it. Means ripping open walls to get to the PVC piping. I suppose that it must be a major leak, as the pump was restarting every 132 seconds. Therefore, I can't just ignore it, but must go through whatever construction is necessary to find it and make the repairs.

Any suggestions on finding it? (Other than the obvious, ripping the wall open)

Google's been a great help in getting us communicating, at least one way. I pull something up either from the board or type myself, and it's translated into Thai for him to read on my screen. Everything else is gestures and managing. Too bad I don't have a Thai keyboard!

[lopburi3]

If you have those stop valves at the toilet feed that would be my starting point. If unable to find it is most likely underground as a wall leak should become apparent rather quickly. We decided to install total outside pipes after having a leak many years ago and that was a cheap and easy solution/preventative for further problems. they have non rusting plastic clips to hold pipe now and when painted same as walls they do not show up at all. I would not have on front of house for on sides/rear looks fine when painted.

[JusMe]

You've got me thinking, lopburi3.

As we can't see anything obvious, and as you suggest it's a major leak and not just a simple drip, there's the likelihood that it could be underground.

Assuming we'd see something on the walls if it was leaking inside there, maybe going as much as possible with outside pipes sounds good. Simply install external pipes and leave the underground ones where they are.

At least it would be a start, and eliminate a serious possibility. If it solved the problem, great. If not, then we'd at least know that we needed to begin looking for a wall to rip open. And there'd be no loss having the external pipes already installed.

I had assumed without carefully checking (and we all remember about assuming, eh?) that the toilet did have a valve controlling the intake to the tank. It doesn't. Straight out of the wall into the tank. But I haven't seen any evidence of leakage from the tank into the bowl, even without any water flowing through the pipes for several hours, so I do believe I can eliminate the toilet itself as the source of the leak.

Knowing that the pump kicks in after 132 seconds, is there any way of calculating, or even estimating, the kind of leak I'm looking at?

[ignis]

If you have those stop valves at the toilet feed that would be my starting point. If unable to find it is most likely underground as a wall leak should become apparent rather quickly. We decided to install total outside pipes after having a leak many years ago and that was a cheap and easy solution/preventative for further problems. they have non rusting plastic clips to hold pipe now and when painted same as walls they do not show up at all. I would not have on front of house for on sides/rear looks fine when painted.

Yes I did the same downstairs, upstairs was easy as cut and capped the pipe, then made a hole just under the ring beam, then push in 7m of new pipe over the ceiling and re joined... using a piece of doweling worked out my leak was under the shower in the downstairs bathroom.

One of the many good reasons for shipping out all my tools when I moved here.

[Artisi]

If you have those stop valves at the toilet feed that would be my starting point. If unable to find it is most likely underground as a wall leak should become apparent rather quickly. We decided to install total outside pipes after having a leak many years ago and that was a cheap and easy solution/preventative for further problems. they have non rusting plastic clips to hold pipe now and when painted same as walls they do not show up at all. I would not have on front of house for on sides/rear looks fine when painted.

Yes I did the same downstairs, upstairs was easy as cut and capped the pipe, then made a hole just under the ring beam, then push in 7m of new pipe over the ceiling and re joined... using a piece of doweling worked out my leak was under the shower in the downstairs bathroom.

One of the many good reasons for shipping out all my tools when I moved here.

A good reason to use copper pipe for all plumbing.

[longball53098]

An easy way to check if a toilet is leaking? Normally it's the flapper seal that leaks even a bit and then the feed valve opens to fill in more water. Get some food coloring maybe a red food color and add a few drops into the water in the toilet tank. If the toilet is leaking you will see the water in the bowl turning red in several minutes

As for finding the leak? Maybe just as you did to check the pump there would be a way to isolate certain parts of the piping to see where it leaks. On this one may not be so easy as the Thais run the pipes in the shortest easiest way.

To see how much water is leaking? The meter should have a small red numbered wheel on the right next to the bigger black numbers for the reading. On my meter I have several black numbers which are the whole units(cubic liters) of water used. Next to the black numbers on the right are 3 red numbered wheels that I feel fairly sure are tenths, hundreds and thousandths of cubic liters. If you have a leak you should see this smallest wheel moving fairly quick I would think. But then you may not have this type of meter. I would think at the least there will be a fraction of a cubic liter wheel.

Just a few thoughts to help

Reason for this edit? Another thought just occurred to me! If the main supply of water feeds directly in to a tank than trying to read the meter for small usage(leaks) may be very difficult as the tank is the supply to the leaking pipe not the meter supply. If you can divert the supply around the tank and pump than you could read the meter for the leak

Edited November 3, 2009 by longball53098

[MikeyIdea]

So, unfortunately, we've got a leak. Now the problem is to find it. Means ripping open walls to get to the PVC piping. I suppose that it must be a major leak, as the pump was restarting every 132 seconds. Therefore, I can't just ignore it, but must go through whatever construction is necessary to find it and make the repairs.

Thais would ignore it, or pull out the cord during the night

[JusMe]

Damned worker didn't show up this morning, and I can't get him on the phone!

I've figured out that at the pump's outlet, there's a T-junction, one leading through the wall to the bathroom, and the other underground around the back of the house to the kitchen. If we can put a valve in there, we can determine which pipe is leaking, and then repair/replace only that one.

And I've also realized that it might not be possible yet to see damage or soaking where the leak exists. The pump was only installed a couple of days ago, in response to the municipal lack of pressure (on some days, none at all!), and it might not have been leaking at all without some pressure, or so minimally that we wouldn't see evidence.

Unfortunately, I can't do this stuff myself, so until that worker shows up, I'm just waiting and getting more pissed off.

I've shut off the valve leading from the pump so there's nothing moving at all right now - just go out a few times a day when I do need water, such as shower, washing a few dishes, fill the tank on the toilet. Annoying, but I can live like this for a few days, at least until the worker shows!

I remember that trick about food colouring in the water tank of the toilet to see if that's where the leak is. I'm sure it's not, as the water in the tank doesn't sink at all, even over many hours with the water flow stopped.

Not much to do now, but I'll keep the thread posted as to progress.

[Artisi]

If you are certain that the leak is AFTER the valve located between the pump and the house you can ignore the follow:-

As this is a recently installed pump, there is a chance that the non-return valve built into the pump unit has something lodged under it allowing pressure to escape back to the inlet side - this can happen on a new installation as the pipe work is disturbed and a piece of scale or similar may have entered the pump.

[rabcbroon]

A friend had the same problem after many headaches testing everything, i.e. isolated each shower in turn etc it was eventually traced to an underground leak from a garden tap!

same happened to me - underground pipe had crack in it

[JusMe]

Artisi, you said: "If you are certain that the leak is AFTER the valve located between the pump and the house you can ignore the follow:-

As this is a recently installed pump, there is a chance that the non-return valve built into the pump unit has something lodged under it allowing pressure to escape back to the inlet side - this can happen on a new installation as the pipe work is disturbed and a piece of scale or similar may have entered the pump."

To be honest, I'm not certain of anything right now. I begin to wonder who I am!

But with the pump turned on, and the valve leading out of it turned off so no water can get into the pipes, it's been silent all day, not attempting to start up on its own, as it had been doing. Therefore, I figure there is a leak in one of the pipes, either the one going through the wall into the bathroom, or the one going underground around to the back of the house and into the kitchen.

Unfortunately, I haven't had any contact with my worker today at all. Maybe he celebrated Loy Kratong too exuberantly. Sure hope we can get to work finding the leak and either repairing it, or replacing the pipes with some external ones.

[silverhawk_usa]

I have been lurking on this post with interest and I owe you guys a thanks. I have been listening to my pump cycle on and off for the past year. The service guy claimed it was because of the hot water tank that is installed. It has increased recently to where it is particularly annoying.

Reading all of the above I became motivated. I went under the house and found four shutoff valves and started turning them off, one by one, until the pump quit cycling. I then went and saw where I did not have water, which turned out to be the second floor. We don't use the water up there that often, so by turning it off it the immediate problem has been solved. One of the faucets seems to have just a very slight leak. I will get that replaced and hopefully the problem will be solved long term. I hope the OP resolves his problem as easily. Thanks for the help.