Does It Take Longer To Read Thai Than English

[CrossBones]

This is just an observation.

I can read an english email paragraph in about 5 seconds or a web page of news for instance in about 20 seconds or skim through it in about 10 seconds...

But when I see my wife reading Thai it takes her ages to read an email or something with the same text translated in Thai.

I am wondering if this is something about the structure of the characters in the Thai script that makes it difficult to read quickly?

[PaulUSA302]

Your wife can read and write in at least 2 languages and you think she is thick or slow?

[yabaaaa]

No I have noticed this too, my wife when she sends an e mail re writes them over and over and take ages and ages. Is it about being sure what they are saying causes zero offence?

[IanForbes]

No I have noticed this too, my wife when she sends an e mail re writes them over and over and take ages and ages. Is it about being sure what they are saying causes zero offence?

Very good point. However, there actually MIGHT be something about Thai text that makes it difficult to read on a computer screen. I know that long paragraphs in English with little or no spacing is much harder to read on a computer screen than it is in a book. Why that is so I have no idea, but it seems to be true. People who post long threads of type seldom have all of it read. People start to read and then just move on to something easier.

[rgs2001uk]

No I have noticed this too, my wife when she sends an e mail re writes them over and over and take ages and ages. Is it about being sure what they are saying causes zero offence?

That may be part of it, but I feel it is more of a face issue.

Hence the constant rechecking and re-editing, so as not to appear uneducated.

How many times have you been with a Thai who doesnt know where they are going, but doesnt want to lose face by asking a stranger in case they appear to be stupid?

I have no such qualms about stopping and asking for directions, the wife, well thats another matter.

[wolf5370]

No I have noticed this too, my wife when she sends an e mail re writes them over and over and take ages and ages. Is it about being sure what they are saying causes zero offence?

That may be part of it, but I feel it is more of a face issue.

Hence the constant rechecking and re-editing, so as not to appear uneducated.

How many times have you been with a Thai who doesn't know where they are going, but doesn't want to lose face by asking a stranger in case they appear to be stupid?

I have no such qualms about stopping and asking for directions, the wife, well that's another matter.

Crikey, my MIL gets the FIL to stop the car every three blocks to check and recheck the way and to confirm what the last somtam lady told her - they ignore me sitting there pointing at the satnav!

Edited November 2, 2009 by wolf5370

[flying]

While it may look like just a little writing takes longer to read than the same amount of English characters.......

Thai writing has much more info in a small amount of characters.

[Moonrakers]

There was a thread a while back about the reading habits of Thai people. I searched for it but can't find it, the title of the thread was something along the lines of "why don't they read". Maybe somebody else can dig it out.

The general consensus was that Thai's just don't read, at least not for pleasure. Something to do with the way the language is constructed (as Ianforbes suggests), or just something to do with education (Or lack thereof). My wife Thai has a degree in accountancy, yet she wonders at why I would say statements such as "The movie isn't bad, but nowhere near as good as the book"

For so many Thai's reading seems more of a burden than a pleasure, another sad example of how their natural creative talent is laid to waste.

[BSJ]

Discussing the matter with your wife or girlfriend would be the best course of action. Computer based translations are often inaccurate.

[Jimjim]

"Or is my wife thick?"

Thanks for the laugh, great subtitle.

[Curt1591]

Typing Thai is particularly tough, due to many double keystroke characters.

[Richard W]

Typing Thai is particularly tough, due to many double keystroke characters.

Is it any worse than German? On the other hand, having 60-odd basic letters (counting the vowel and tone marks) is a bit more of a strain on the memory - sara u and sara uu are the only pairs whose position is related - unless Thais can make a mnemonic out of yo yak and yo ying and likewise ro ruea and no nen being on the same key, and I suppose it may help that the tone marks are together and likewise the 4 sos.

[pjclark1]

This is just an observation.

I can read an english email paragraph in about 5 seconds or a web page of news for instance in about 20 seconds or skim through it in about 10 seconds...

But when I see my wife reading Thai it takes her ages to read an email or something with the same text translated in Thai.

I am wondering if this is something about the structure of the characters in the Thai script that makes it difficult to read quickly?

I believe it is much slower to read Thai because of several factors

1) there are no gaps between the words, it takes time to divide them up.

2) groups of words together can have completely different meanings to the same words on their own.

It appears to me the whole sentence needs to be read several times.

I have asked my gf about the meaning of a word or two, and she will often say "I need to read the whole sentence first"

Just my opinion.

[marshbags]

Discussing the matter with your wife or girlfriend would be the best course of action. Computer based translations are often inaccurate.

No offence to yourself or Thai spouses.

Unless you can think like a Thai and can speak the language in a above average conversant way, you are on a hidding to nothing.

From my experience, having tried this many times, it always finishes up with total misunderstanding and further problems.

Far better to debate it on a thread like this and pick out the sensible observations based on actual experiences.

I for one would applaud anyone who can offer a sensible solution........................of sorts that is.

Wifey has just gone into her usual 2 day sulk, due to either not listening to what I had to say or not understanding it.

T.Face and culture, I think, maybe have much to do with these sort of problems.

The question posed by the OP is a fair one and not offensive in the least, or negative IMHO by the way.

marshbags

Edited November 3, 2009 by marshbags

[PeaceBlondie]

Discussing the matter with your wife or girlfriend would be the best course of action. Computer based translations are often inaccurate.

We don't discuss much at all. I might get no answer, or a wrong answer. I might make him lose face. He is no dummy, but reads very slowly and re-reads. He doesn't read much at all.

[PhilHarries]

I've observed this too and not only amongst uneducated people but also those with good university backgrounds.

They are not thick, I'm surprised Maigo6 hasn't stormed in with his offensive defensive claptrap yet, it just seem that the written word is more difficult to unravel.

Iguessitsthesameaswritingenglishwithoutthespacesandjusttakesadditionaltimeasyoua

ntskipoverit.

<edit : remove unwanted return>

<edit again : same same>

<edit : I give up, &lt;deleted&gt; computers>

Edited November 3, 2009 by Crossy

[mca]

In my humble opinion I don't think the Thai written word is difficult to decipher for a Thai. After all it's what they've been brought up with. It's the same as a westerner who'll come across a new verb they've never encountered before but instinctively know the past tense and participle. It's an automatic thing. My half baked theory is that Thais aren't as adept at "skimming" and "scanning" text as a westerner and literally have to read something from beginning to end to make sure of the context and meaning.

Of course I could be talking complete and utter &lt;deleted&gt;.

[Norrad]

I've noticed the same with my wife. I always ask my wife to read the signs that our condo posts about future upgrades or maintenance. She will spend, what for me seems like, a long time reading it and then tell me something like "Tomorrow the water will be off". The building knows that I stay on the top floor and sometimes posts the notices in English up there, so when I read the same sign it takes me only a few seconds.

My wife is fully bilingual, so it's not the translation that is taking so long, just the actual reading.

[bannork]

It's not difficult to read Thai, one soon gets used to spotting words even with no breaks between them, the answer is more likely that Thais rarely read so it takes longer for those who don't read often to decipher a passage.

'Practice makes perfect' as a lot of truth to it.

[robblok]

I see my wife typing thai on msn and see her friends do the same at quite fast speeds. I type with 10 fingers blind so i know what is fast and not. But when she talks with her friends in thai on MSN its of course less polite and less formal then a letter or an email.

But i think it also has something to do with how many times you read or write. I doubt she reads as fast as i do but i love to read.

[MikeyIdea]

Interesting thread but you are all missing something, IMO. Thai’s don’t read at all, they have memorised groups of characters and the sound of them and when they “read”, they put these groups together. Reading in the western sense is sounding characters together making words. As Thai words often are very short, there is very little reading going on. We can of course argue that westerners do the same but we are talking of a totally different dimension in Thai.

It is interesting when I see my daughter Idea “learn” to “read” Thai, she doesn’t “learn” at all, she memorises, she is taught by her teachers to memorise and there is not a single trace of thinking involved in the process. I do a lot of Ideas Thai home work too, as I think that my wife is so “un-pedagogic”, to put it mildly. 2 days ago, she had Idea looking at the small picture of the ball, then made her write the characters, then as I have asked her to teach reading at the same time, she points at the PICTURE and ask Idea to read. Oh sod it, I’ll do it myself…

Anyway, seeing Thai early education close-up, it all falls nicely in place. It is no surprise that Thai adults get shaped differently from westerners. Saying that though, I work with many very smart Thai’s who certainly do not share this trait. They are very quick readers too. Generalise is Very Wrong. I will stick my nose out, and say this though;

Often, it is not only reading that is affected. OK, you are all right, reading Thai is more difficult of course, characters are more complex and there are no spaces which also slow things down, but it goes further than that. The ability to do calculations without pen and paper is by western standards often extremely low, and logical thinking is often limited too. This has to do with – Hang on, don’t flame me. I’ve been here a long time and love Thailand and the Thais. If you think I haven’t explained properly, ask for clarifications instead. What do I base my observations on?

OK, here it comes: If you don’t actively use your brain, then it won’t be as quick at doing things, it dulls off with time. Many Thai’s have a tendency to not engage in things that require too much brain activity, they don’t like it. Many are simply, seen from one way, lazy at using their brains unnecessarily. Seen another way, why should they if they don’t have to? Take many Thais watching TV, having the choice of watching dubbed TV or English with sub titles, they nearly always (in the beginning) choose dubbed to Thai. Or any heavy brain activity, Thais so choose being entertained with “light stuff”. But then, there are also many Thais who use their brain heavily every day and they of course show no sign of this

Can someone tell me please, compared to westerners, why are Thais more often word blind, dyslexic? My observation, not scientifically based.

[oevna]

Interesting thread but you are all missing something, IMO. Thai’s don’t read at all, they have memorised groups of characters and the sound of them and when they “read”, they put these groups together. Reading in the western sense is sounding characters together making words. As Thai words often are very short, there is very little reading going on. We can of course argue that westerners do the same but we are talking of a totally different dimension in Thai.

I have not found this to be true. I have worked in the Thai school system as a volunteer teacher in a rural school (primary and secondary levels), and the way the children are taught to read and write starts out by learning the script, pronunciation and tone rules, sounding out syllables, followed by whole words.

As you said, it is also true that Thais look at whole words when reading, but this is true of fluent readers of all languages, including English. It has actually been shown that the letters of words can be scrambled, as long as the first and last letters of each word are in the correct place, and most text is legible (except for text containing long words that do not occur frequently). For elxapme msot of the ltetres of tihs txet are mexid up. So we don't sound out each letter of every word that we read in order when reading either; we look at the whole word in context and are able to overlook many errors.

I can read and write Thai (although quite a bit slower than a native Thai reader), and I have spoken with Thai people from many walks of life. Most of them have a good grasp of Thai phonetics (literacy in Thailand was estimated at 92.6% as of 2005). I have often discussed pronunciation of Thai words that I see written, and asked for an explanation of them based on the Thai phonetic rules. Almost all have been able to explain them.

The problem in my opinion, as others have suggested here, is simply that it isn't in the habits of many Thais to read. Those who do practice can read quite quickly.

[mojaco]

I have been in Thailand 15 years, have much experience with students at grade 9-12 level, and I can read/write Thai myself, albeit fairly slowly. I learned to type Thai using a typing tutor program, and it ddn't take very long to touch-type Thai.

What I believe fully is that since Thai people don't read for enjoyment (look at Thai people on a train or bus) but get enjoyment from group conversation, they simply don't read enough to pick up speed. We see that in our students. Many come as slow readers, but after two years have much more speed.

I also had a girlfriend in the USA many (MANY) years ago who was a slow reader, and so she didn't enjoy reading, and so didn't read enough to pick up speed. I suggested to her that she just start reading novels about things she was interested in such as westerns, or who-dunits. She did that, began to enjoy reading so started reading more and more, and became a normally speedy reader. So IMHO Thai prefer group conversing to reading, and so lack of practice contributes to their slow reading, in general.

My Thai reading is fairly slow because I don't read Thai for enjoyment, and so don't read enough to pick up speed. Same situation.

Edited November 3, 2009 by mojaco

[MikeyIdea]

Glad to discuss different opinions. I speak much more Thai than English in any given year but read only very slowly; I am more like a 7 year old in that area

Apologies for not being clear, I didn’t mean that adults sound out each letter, neither Thais nor English do of course, I meant that while English children are taught to read by sounding characters together, Thai children, in kindergarten, are not. I base that on my own experience, my daughter is in K2, and talking to friends whose kids are in K3. We all see the same thing, or don’t see rather. None of us have seen any sounding done. The kids are simply taught to memorise everything.

I think that Thai’s are taught tone rules starting first in grade 1, everything that they are taught before that is pure memorisation. Is it considered too difficult for 4 – 5 year olds? I don’t know. And a pre-requisite for getting in to grade one at a decent school in Bangkok is that you must be able to read and write… Bangkok is unfortunately much more competitive than up-country and I think they have gotten it totally wrong in this area. It would be interesting to hear from other parents with kids in kindergarten, am I wrong?

“The problem in my opinion, as others have suggested here, is simply that it isn't in the habits of many Thais to read. Those who do practice can read quite quickly.”

I totally agree, main problem is habit. What’s the root cause of the habit?

I think that your sample with first and last letter of words works for western languages but is not directly applicable to tonal languages. It works the same but on different parts of the words. Westerners are “programmed” to look for the consonants and the beginnings and the ends, the important information for understanding (the grammar is generally at the end), while in tonal languages it’s the vowels that carry the important information so the Thais are “programmed” to look for them instead (It’s difficult to get a consonant to carry a tone). I find that Thais generally guess pretty OK if it is the consonant that is wrong but they are bad at guessing if the vowel is wrong.

This is also why many westerners have problems getting understood, they try to correct the consonants and the beginning and end but the problem is with the vowel in the middle

Michael

[TAWP]

Your wife can read and write in at least 2 languages and you think she is thick or slow?

Many of us here, perhaps including the OP, can read and write more than 2 languages too...and I still read a secondary language faster than I find most Thai people read Thai...

[TAWP]

I see my wife typing thai on msn and see her friends do the same at quite fast speeds. I type with 10 fingers blind so i know what is fast and not. But when she talks with her friends in thai on MSN its of course less polite and less formal then a letter or an email.

But i think it also has something to do with how many times you read or write. I doubt she reads as fast as i do but i love to read.

My wife types in karaoke Thai (translitterated) or English when she talks with her friends sometimes due to it being faster to type on a keyboard.

Someone said that not so seldom a Thai person might be able to read the text in a newspaper but not being able to comprehend what it means, aka not know about the word and its meaning. So the reading is an actual read-through of the letters used, while when I read texts I just scan for known patters of letters in order and know the words as it is. I would presume this scanning would be easier to do if the text is separated into words instead of long 'greeking-text' blocks.

[oevna]

I think that your sample with first and last letter of words works for western languages but is not directly applicable to tonal languages. It works the same but on different parts of the words. Westerners are “programmed” to look for the consonants and the beginnings and the ends, the important information for understanding (the grammar is generally at the end), while in tonal languages it’s the vowels that carry the important information so the Thais are “programmed” to look for them instead (It’s difficult to get a consonant to carry a tone). I find that Thais generally guess pretty OK if it is the consonant that is wrong but they are bad at guessing if the vowel is wrong.

Well, the example with the scrambled letters wasn't meant to suggest that Thai would have the same feature. It wouldn't, for a variety of reasons having to do with the fact that nearly all of the vowels are dependent vowels that need to be associated with a consonant (i.e. the Thai script is an abugida), and that the tone marks can only be written with consonants. It was meant more as an illustration of how English readers also don't pick words apart letter-by-letter, but look at the whole word.

As far as your suggestion that Thais are vowel-centric while Westerners are consonant-centric; interesting theory, but I don't know if I follow. Perhaps you can explain using Thai language as a specific example? My experience has been that consonants are crucial to correct tone pronunciation (the initial consonant in fact determines the tone rule for the following vowel, along with any tone mark and final consonant), so Thais pay as much attention to them as they do to the vowels.

[OxfordWill]

There is nothing particular about Thai script which causes the Thai native reader to read more slowly than the English native reader.

[CrossBones]

Wehn we read einlsgh we dnot autlalcy look at the way the wrod is mdae up, we jsut chcek taht all the ltertts in the wrod are trehe and tehn it can be udoerstond

[simon43]

Don't forget that many rural Thai people left school after Bor 6 (primary school = 12 years old). My ex and probably all of her Issan village had no formal education after 12 years old because they had to help their family in the rice fields. So it's quite understandable that many Thais cannot read Thai at the speed you would expect an adult to read their native language.

Simon