Us Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act – Hr 3933

[PawyiLee]

American Citizens Abroad (ACA) warns that if the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act – HR 3933 is passed, banks outside the US would likely refuse deposits from Americans rather than have to comply with this American law. See Concern: HR 3933

[Boon Mee]

Well, if it does pass I certainly hope my foreign accounts are not turffed out!

[Jingthing]

This is horrifying news.

[givenall]

This is horrifying news.

I guess we just have to bring cash out. And countries probably will increase the amount allowed to bring in

[maxman71]

This is horrifying news.

Another potential horror outcome would be if the Thais comply and start reporting to the IRS info on their account holders who are US citizens, and those account holders have not reported the existence of their Thai accounts to the IRS as is required. If the aggregate total of all of a US citizen's accounts exceed the equivalent of USD 10,000 for as much as one day during the calendar year, and the person did not file the required reporting forms to the IRS, they are subject to some truly draconian fines, possibly even criminal prosecution depending on the source of the funds (i.e. criminal actiivty vs. legal activity), unreported income derived from the accounts, etc.

The IRS recently offered an amnesty program that expired Oct 15 2009 for those who have not reported their overseas accounts to come forward voluntarily and face much reduced fines and avoid criminal prosecution (as long as the funds were not sourced via criminal activity).

If the Thais however refuse to participate with the IRS, then those of us who need to Thai bank accounts for business, retirement visas, etc could be forced to leave Thailand as the Thais would then force us to close our accounts. More change from Obama we could all do without. I hope those of you who voted for this assclown and think he is such a great guy, are realizing what a huge mistake you have made. Please go about fixing it.

[lockman]

This is horrifying news.

Another potential horror outcome would be if the Thais comply and start reporting to the IRS info on their account holders who are US citizens, and those account holders have not reported the existence of their Thai accounts to the IRS as is required. If the aggregate total of all of a US citizen's accounts exceed the equivalent of USD 10,000 for as much as one day during the calendar year, and the person did not file the required reporting forms to the IRS, they are subject to some truly draconian fines, possibly even criminal prosecution depending on the source of the funds (i.e. criminal actiivty vs. legal activity), unreported income derived from the accounts, etc.

The IRS recently offered an amnesty program that expired Oct 15 2009 for those who have not reported their overseas accounts to come forward voluntarily and face much reduced fines and avoid criminal prosecution (as long as the funds were not sourced via criminal activity).

If the Thais however refuse to participate with the IRS, then those of us who need to Thai bank accounts for business, retirement visas, etc could be forced to leave Thailand as the Thais would then force us to close our accounts. More change from Obama we could all do without. I hope those of you who voted for this assclown and think he is such a great guy, are realizing what a huge mistake you have made. Please go about fixing it.

But we won't increase taxes on the middle class...what a crock

[Jingthing]

Yes, people should report their accounts. If I can't maintain a Thai bank account, I as well as many of the Americans here will have to leave Thailand. As this comes from the House, obviously this bill is not being written by President Obama (though I expect he will likely sign it). The obvious intent is to catch tax cheaters and there is nothing wrong with that though like anything there is collateral damage. The massive deficit we have now was started by Bush so there is plenty of blame to go around, of course the feds are going to get more aggressive now. However, I do agree many foreign banks will not wish to comply and just decide to not deal with Americans.

Can someone interpret what this means exactly:

One cornerstone provision of the proposed legislation is a 30 percent withholding tax on payments to foreign banks unless they acknowledge the accounts to the Internal Revenue Service and disclose account ownership, amounts and fund transfers.

http://web20.nixonpeabody.com/globaltaxblo...1505d&ID=49

Another Thai related nightmare issue with this news. If Americans can't have accounts here and have to leave Thailand, how can we sell our assets here? For example, how can you sell a condo if you don't have a Thai bank account to put the funds in?

Perhaps the name of this bill should be the "Yankee Go Home" Act as the effect may be many of us will be forced to repatriate against our free wills. If this worse case scenario plays out it is rather ironic, tripped up by the feds rather than Thai immigration.

Edited November 8, 2009 by Jingthing

[maxman71]

Yes, people should report their accounts. If I can't maintain a Thai bank account, I as well as many of the Americans here will have to leave Thailand. As this comes from the House, obviously this bill is not being written by President Obama (though I expect he will likely sign it). The obvious intent is to catch tax cheaters and there is nothing wrong with that though like anything there is collateral damage. The massive deficit we have now was started by Bush so there is plenty of blame to go around, of course the feds are going to get more aggressive now. However, I do agree many foreign banks will not wish to comply and just decide to not deal with Americans.

Can someone interpret what this means exactly:

One cornerstone provision of the proposed legislation is a 30 percent withholding tax on payments to foreign banks unless they acknowledge the accounts to the Internal Revenue Service and disclose account ownership, amounts and fund transfers.

http://web20.nixonpeabody.com/globaltaxblo...1505d&ID=49

Another Thai related nightmare issue with this news. If Americans can't have accounts here and have to leave Thailand, how can we sell our assets here? For example, how can you sell a condo if you don't have a Thai bank account to put the funds in?

Perhaps the name of this bill should be the "Yankee Go Home" Act as the effect may be many of us will be forced to repatriate against our free wills. If this worse case scenario plays out it is rather ironic, tripped up by the feds rather than Thai immigration.

I just checked on the web and both Citi and BofA have branches in BKK. I would assume (hope) that if this law passes, a Yank could set up accounts with these two banks and still stay here. And sure Bush did a fair amount of the damage, but the course Obama has been taking demonstrates he is making the situation much, much worse. Bottom line, if a Yank has foreign accounts and hasn't reported them as required, and this bill passes, they're in a heap of trouble.

[puyaidon]

I have a lawyer friend who is a consultant here in Thailand and returns from the states on Tuesday. Before I get too excited, I am going to show him the letter in a previous post and have him check it out. It directly affects him a lot more than me so he might be able to comment on it as a lawyer rather than a bank account holder. Either he or I will post what we learn and even if might pass. The days of the tea parties are affecting the US more than was expected so be patient in our comments.

President Obama is not the most popular figure now and is even being compared to President Carter who might have been our worse president in centuries.

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

There will be a big rush of US passport holders getting a second passport to use for their banking. I think perhaps Uruguay, anyone have any ideas on this?

[jazzbo]

from Definitions in introduced H.R. 3933:

Section 1471 (d)(1)(

EXCEPTION FOR CERTAIN ACCOUNTS HELD BY INDIVIDUALS- Unless the foreign financial institution elects to not have this subparagraph apply, such term

shall not

include any depository account maintained by such financial institution if--

(i) each holder of such account is a natural person, and

`(ii) with respect to each holder of such account, the aggregate value of all depository accounts held (in whole or in part) by such holder and maintained by the same financial institution which maintains such account does not exceed $10,000

($50,000 if all such accounts were in existence on the date of the enactment of this section).

Is there a non-stop BKK to Montevideo?

[Jingthing]

For bank account requirements based on marriage/retirement I do not think Citibank or Bank of America would be considered THAI banks. I hope I am wrong about that. Is anybody using Citibank Thailand or Bank of America Thailand to meet their extension requirements at Thai immigration?

This is a serious THAI related topic. It is not about whether you like Obama or not!

Edited November 9, 2009 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

There will be a big rush of US passport holders getting a second passport to use for their banking. I think perhaps Uruguay, anyone have any ideas on this?

I don't think Uruguay sells second passports. Dominica does but its expensive. Knowing the feds they are probably watching this too, "escaping from America" is harder than ever! And wealthy people probably already know that Americans who are deemed to give up citizenship for tax purposes are still fully liable for US tax (yes this is a separate but related thing from using second passports).

http://www.goccp.com/ENG/second-passport/2...nd_Passport.htm

Edited November 9, 2009 by Jingthing

[jazzbo]

From the Bank of America/Bangkok website

Bank of America's long presence in Thailand has given the bank a deep understanding of local banking regulations and knowledge of central bank policies. An established history has also enabled the bank to maintain a mature and diversified portfolio of clients which includes local, American, European and multinational

corporations as well as local institutions and government agencies.

The bank provides working capital and international commercial banking support to these clients, including services such as treasury management (primarily liquidity management, payments and receipts, which require maintaining deposit accounts with the bank), short term borrowing, trade finance, short term investing and short-term foreign exchange.

No mention of individual accounts. BTW as per H.R. 3933 above, I interpret that EACH bank account prior to the Bill's enactment is exempt up to $50,000 so that with accounts at 2 separate banks you are exempt up to $100,000.

[Lite Beer]

Off Topic comment edited and the replies to it deleted.

[Jingthing]

The Thai banks have enough problems. If there are exceptions, good, but that is overhead for the foreign banks to know about US regulations and to enforce them. It is outrageous to make them do that. ACA calls that a kind of IMPERIALISM and I agree with them. US laws should stop at our borders, that's what normal countries do. Like ACA fears, they may just decide to not do business with ANY of us. This is a real danger. ACA isn't a fly by night blog, they know what they are talking about. Even if some Thai banks cut us off and some don't, that would still represent a major inconvenience for those of us banking with banks that cut us off.

Edited November 9, 2009 by Jingthing

[jfchandler]

To the best of my knowledge, the Bank of America branch in BKK is useless for anything having to do with consumer account holders...

No ATMs there, no services for U.S. BofA account holders. No accounts opened or serviced thru them. I can't see how that particular office would have any bearing on the issues in this thread.

[jfchandler]

If I'm reading/understanding the language below correctly, and it becomes part of any final law, it would grandfather in a $50,000 threshhold for existing accounts abroad.

That certainly, under Thailand's current rules, would be enough to accommodate those needing to solely satisfy the current 800,000 baht retirement extension deposit requirement. For business owners abroad, it's not going to help much.

from Definitions in introduced H.R. 3933:

Section 1471 (d)(1)(

EXCEPTION FOR CERTAIN ACCOUNTS HELD BY INDIVIDUALS- Unless the foreign financial institution elects to not have this subparagraph apply, such term

shall not

include any depository account maintained by such financial institution if--

(i) each holder of such account is a natural person, and

`(ii) with respect to each holder of such account, the aggregate value of all depository accounts held (in whole or in part) by such holder and maintained by the same financial institution which maintains such account does not exceed $10,000

($50,000 if all such accounts were in existence on the date of the enactment of this section).

Is there a non-stop BKK to Montevideo?

[Jingthing]

Yes, but like I said, and like ACA fears the banks may just decide not to deal with any Americans in protest, and that would include current account holders. Yes this is speculation so we will just have to wait and see and hope.

[Naam]

There will be a big rush of US passport holders getting a second passport to use for their banking. I think perhaps Uruguay, anyone have any ideas on this?

getting a second "good" passport (not one that enables you to travel to nowhere) is very expensive and the possibilities are quite limited.

[gregb]

getting a second "good" passport (not one that enables you to travel to nowhere) is very expensive and the possibilities are quite limited.

Do you actually need a "good" passport though, or will any passport do?

Question. When a bank opens an account for you, is there an actual Thai law requiring them to check for the visa in that passport? Hypothetically, if I enter the country on an American passport, can I then open my bank account using a blank passport (with no stamps) from Niger? I understand that typically banks do not do this today, but is there actually any regulation which prevents it?

Seems if this is legal, there would be a few branches that would opt to cater to the crowd facing this problem.

[jfchandler]

For the most part, I've never seen Thai bank staff pay any attention to visa or entry/exit stamps...

They're just doing the ID check, looking at you and the photo, and recording the passport number.

That is, unless, the type of account or bank company you're dealing with are one in which having some kind of visa is a requirement for opening the account. Different Thai banks have different policies on this...

For example, I believe BKK Bank sometimes now wants either a work permit or a long term visa in order to grant online banking privileges....

But at most places, I believe foreigners can open a simple savings account without any particular visa...meaning...even on visa exempt entry and such.

[Jingthing]

This second passport idea is a pure fantasy for more than 99 percent of us. Once a Yank, always a Yank ...

Edited November 9, 2009 by Jingthing

[Scott]

Most banks will not open a bank account without the appropriate visa. For many, if you have a non-immigrant B, that means a work permit. Banks have become much more strict on this over the past several years. To give you a couple of examples:

We used to write a letter to the bank explaining that the person is an employee and the work permit was being processed and a copy would be forwarded. They would open an account. Now most won't. And we work with the same bank/banks.

We had an employee try to move his bank account from one branch (same bank) to a nearby branch. His new work permit hadn't been processed and the new branch would not accept his account.

I don't think that using a 2nd passport is going to work very well. You are a still a US citizen and subject to the tax laws. A second passport is the kind of thing the 'big fish' would use and that's a net I wouldn't want to get caught in.

For most of us, I don't really see what the problem is. A pain in the behind, yes. Scary, a little. Tax-wise for me, it's nothing. Do others have reason to be concerned?

[jfchandler]

Scott...I understand what you're saying, and I agree the overall picture has been toward tightening the last couple of years...

But there continue be plenty of reports here on TV of people opening new Thai bank accounts with either visa exempt or tourist visa status...

As always...it varies from company to company...and even from branch to branch within the same company...

[jfchandler]

Bangkok Bank, for example, is my no means the easiest bank for foreigners to deal with. But if you look at their web page for new accounts opening, you'll see that folks on tourist visas and visa exempt can still open accounts.

And I said, they are by no means the most accommodating of the Thai banks for foreigners.

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

So they close all the accounts for US passports, how do you survive in any place other than the US. Can't receive pension, SS money if you have no bank account. So you put it in your US bank account, that's nice but how does it do you any good in LOS? Since you have no bank account you cannot do any transactions..

It is possible to get a second passport but either expensive or takes a year or two. There are several places to choose from most in the Caribbean or Central and South America. In Uruguay you can get a passport by having an income of over 18,000DUS a year and buying property $100,000 USD or more. Then in 12 to 18 months you are issued a passport.There is obviously more to it than that but too much to provide here. Rules change and it is at times difficult to determine how old the info you are reading is, but to the best of my knowledge the above options are available.

If you are in a hurry you can go to Dominica and donate 100,000 USD to the government and they will happily provide you with a passport in 6 weeks+-. Or you can check out Panama or St. Kitts and Nevis for other options.

It can be done it is just not easy or cheap. Or you can do the easy option and move back to the US or have a non US citizen put the LOS account in their name. Sure you would find lots of volunteers. Of course you can do nothing and hope for the best.

[jazzbo]

So you put it in your US bank account, that's nice but how does it do you any good in LOS? Since you have no bank account you cannot do any transactions..

ATM? US-based Credit card?

Besides, I can just see BKK Bank, Kasikorn, and the others telling CocaCola, Kraft Foods, IBM, Boeing, et al and their employees to take a hike.

[Scott]

Before pressing the 'panic button', does anybody know the exact language of the bill. For a lot of banks it may be as simple as an additional statement you sign when you open account giving them the right to report your income to the US.

In most cases, it is the individual who is responsible.

With regard to opening bank accounts on a tourist visa etc....yes, there is a lot of differences between banks and branches.

[Scott]

I have been through this thread and attempted, with minimal success, to keep it on topic. Let's try to keep it on the issue and not on the winds of political change.

There is a lot of money floating around that is used for illegal purposes, including drugs, weapons and terrorism. I don't know that this is just about catching the small fry who might owe the tax man a few pesos.