English Teaching In Thai School

[David006]

Just helped my 17 yr old step daughter with her English homework last month....corrected the questions in English and did it all... The beautiful Thai teacher gave this very pretty 17 yo girl ( with Farang step dad!!) "0" for her homework... "NOT RIGHT ..DO IT AGAIN"..

Anybody else come across this "stonewall" "face saving"?

It was just tick the box translation of a telephone conversation. The teacher is obviously lacking in the basics of English but what can one do... I just told the little lady to ignore her..cannot approach school otherwise she ( the girl) will certainly be in a poor position...

This is not a request for a solution!..just wondered if anyone else has had this issue??

[Mario2008]

Nothing new there. My stepson said that 12+6=18. The teacher said 17 and couldn't be convinced of otherwise. That was an anubarn (elementay school). But at university level the same happens. Students asking questions and the teacher just saying "read the book" as to hide the fact she doesn't know.

[thamling]

Never, never correct a thai teacher. She is a symbol of visdom - a staple Bhuddist virtue, and thus untouchable.

[Scott]

I work in a school and believe me, you are dealing with a very delicate situation. There are many Thai grammar books which are either blatantly wrong or use examples which would never be used in normal speaking. It is what's on the tests they take and that is what will determine the grade.

I will help any teacher with questions, but when the students come with their Thai homework, it's a definite 'no.' I usually tell them to send the teacher and I will discuss it with them. That way, I can see the book they are using and get some insight into what's going on.

If you want to help her, practice speaking and pronunciation. Stay away from the Thai side--it will only bring heartbreak to everyone.

[thunder30101]

Well lets see, here is a thai teacher prob with a masters who feels they worked very hard for it and thinks their english is great and you are going to insult her by correcting her grammar ? What did you expect ??? And I must ask why are you doing your daughters homework for her ? even correcting the questions ? I can see helping her but thats a little much, I am sure the thai teacher can see it was someone else who did the work being you did it in perfect english, yeah I would give a 0 for that kind of stuff too, its called copying.

[Scott]

The topic is about English Teaching in a Thai School and saving face. The OP states he corrected the questions.

Posters are invited to discuss the methods of dealing with situation presented--not attack the OP or make unfounded accusations.

Keep it civil. Keep it on-topic.

[Pitbullman1]

Thais are experts when it comes to learning English grammar as it is drilled into them at an early age. But sad to say the vast majority have difficulty in reading and writing it. So yes it is wrong to do school homework for kids as the Thai teacher will see that this homework has not been done by that particular student it will make them feel insuperior, and they will mark the homework down. If you notice whenever they write a letter in English and then translate it into Thai it is totally different!

But I do agree that in real life it is much better to teach them the correct way to speak, read and write the English language as it should be done.

I teach part-time at a student nurses college and one day had to write a reply letter to the Director of the college. Her initial letter to me was very poor to say the least with the majority of words spelled wrongly. She came to the English Academy where I am the head teacher, and ripped me to pieces saying that my letter was wrongly composed and written. I didn't even give her any explanations but merely smiled and informed her that I was too busy to discuss this topic, and left her in the reception area looking, and feeling totally deeply embarrassed. Needless to say when she later came begging for me to lecture at her college again I reminded her of that instance, and told her that I would teach the student, and that I was doing this not for her, but for the sake of the students. She never did this again to me!

So don't feel too bad about it.

Edited November 10, 2009 by Pitbullman1

[Yimmy]

OP. You may find this interesting.

wikipedia: Education_in_thailand

Following the announcement of the University of Cambridge to launch a new course[16] and qualification for non-native speaker teachers, a survey was carried out in February 2006[17], with the collaboration of the University of Cambridge as part of a field trial, by one of the country's largest groups of independent schools of its 400 or so teachers of English.

The project reported that in over 60 percent of the teachers, the knowledge of the language and teaching methodology was below that of the syllabus level which they were teaching. Some teachers for age group 11 - or lower - in the language were actually attempting to teach age groups 15, 16, and even 17. Of the remaining top 40 per cent, only 3 percent had a reasonable level of fluency and only 20 per cent were teaching grades for which they were correctly qualified and competent.

Within the group of over 40 schools representing nearly 80,000 students in primary and secondary education, random parallel test groups of primary school pupils often scored higher in some tests than many of the teachers in other schools of the same group. The schools resisted the initiative of the central governing body to provide intensive upgrading programmes for the teachers. In spite of the evidence, the schools doubted the results, and to save face, argued that their teachers had qualified through their various universities and colleges and either had nothing more to learn or could not afford the time.

In the government schools the standards are similar and many primary teachers freely admit that they are forced to teach English although they have little or no knowledge of the language whatsoever.

The acquired knowledge and competency of newly graduated teachers from the Rajaphat Universities at is often comparable to the level of an American senior High School graduation, a British A-level, a French Baccalauréat, or a German Abitur. Apart from the security of being a civil servant with guaranteed employment and a pension, and the extraordinary cultural respect for the profession, there is little incentive to choose a future as a teacher in a government school. As a result, most classes in secondary schools are overcrowded with often as many as sixty students in a classroom, a situation that continues to favour the rote system that is firmly anchored in Thai culture, as the only method possible.

As teaching by rote requires little pedagogic skill, once qualified, - apart from weekend seminars which are considered to be part of the reward system - teachers tend to resist attempts to encourage them to engage in any forms of further training to improve their subject knowledge and to adopt new methodologies which will require them to use more initiative and to be more creative.

Students are not encouraged to develop analytical and critical thinking skills, which is clearly demonstrated by their inability to complete a cloze test, or to grasp a notion through context. The teachers will avoid introducing dialogue into the classroom or eliciting response from the students - to give a wrong answer would be to lose face in the presence of one's peers, a situation that in Thai culture must always be avoided.

[Firelily]

I know I am not exactly on topic, but it sort of hurts that having had so much horrible experience with Thai teachers of English, many farangs / native speakers will automatically assume that all non-native teachers of English are useless and have substandard English.

As for the topic of this thread.... I really don't know what to advise, it is horribly difficult to "unlearn" the incorrect patterns once a young adult is out of school and gets some exposure to real English. It will take considerable time and effort to get rid of the crap. As a parent, maybe I WOULD do all the homework for her just to save her from learning incorrect patterns. No matter if she fails her tests and exams (can she fail them at all??) And in the meantime, I would speak as much as I can with her, send her to summer camp, weekend classes, watch movies, anything that helps.

(Disclaimer: I didn't really think this through thoroughly, so there may be a gaping hole somewhere in this "solution".)

[phetaroi]

While the "this is in Thailand" factor probably complicates the situation, the situation is not unique to Thailand. As a school administrator in the States I fairly often would have teachers tell me, "You need to back us up even if we are wrong." If they said, "You need to help us even if we are wrong," well no problem there. But hearing professionals say, "The teacher is never wrong," is very problematic in, I'm guessing, virtually all societies.

My guess is that you're in a "no win" situation here.

I do think that, as "thunder" put it, you may be a bit overly involved in your child's homework. If your child says, "Daddy, I don't understand this, could you explain it to me," that's one thing, and in my view, acceptable. Any thing beyond that is counterproductive to your child's education. It's her homework, not yours. Supporting a good "homework environment" is a great way for a parent to be proactive.

[joorakee]

OP. You may find this interesting.

wikipedia: Education_in_thailand

Following the announcement of the University of Cambridge to launch a new course[16] and qualification for non-native speaker teachers, a survey was carried out in February 2006[17], with the collaboration of the University of Cambridge as part of a field trial, by one of the country's largest groups of independent schools of its 400 or so teachers of English.

The project reported that in over 60 percent of the teachers, the knowledge of the language and teaching methodology was below that of the syllabus level which they were teaching. Some teachers for age group 11 - or lower - in the language were actually attempting to teach age groups 15, 16, and even 17. Of the remaining top 40 per cent, only 3 percent had a reasonable level of fluency and only 20 per cent were teaching grades for which they were correctly qualified and competent.

Within the group of over 40 schools representing nearly 80,000 students in primary and secondary education, random parallel test groups of primary school pupils often scored higher in some tests than many of the teachers in other schools of the same group. The schools resisted the initiative of the central governing body to provide intensive upgrading programmes for the teachers. In spite of the evidence, the schools doubted the results, and to save face, argued that their teachers had qualified through their various universities and colleges and either had nothing more to learn or could not afford the time.

In the government schools the standards are similar and many primary teachers freely admit that they are forced to teach English although they have little or no knowledge of the language whatsoever.

The acquired knowledge and competency of newly graduated teachers from the Rajaphat Universities at is often comparable to the level of an American senior High School graduation, a British A-level, a French Baccalauréat, or a German Abitur. Apart from the security of being a civil servant with guaranteed employment and a pension, and the extraordinary cultural respect for the profession, there is little incentive to choose a future as a teacher in a government school. As a result, most classes in secondary schools are overcrowded with often as many as sixty students in a classroom, a situation that continues to favour the rote system that is firmly anchored in Thai culture, as the only method possible.

As teaching by rote requires little pedagogic skill, once qualified, - apart from weekend seminars which are considered to be part of the reward system - teachers tend to resist attempts to encourage them to engage in any forms of further training to improve their subject knowledge and to adopt new methodologies which will require them to use more initiative and to be more creative.

Students are not encouraged to develop analytical and critical thinking skills, which is clearly demonstrated by their inability to complete a cloze test, or to grasp a notion through context. The teachers will avoid introducing dialogue into the classroom or eliciting response from the students - to give a wrong answer would be to lose face in the presence of one's peers, a situation that in Thai culture must always be avoided.

Isn't it like that because teachers (both ครู and อาจารย์) are underpaid?

It was a rhetorical question.

Even in Japan, if you are a Caucasian, you will often be asked to teach English (you can encounter "English" teachers who don't know the difference between 'lend' and 'borrow'), let alone Thailand with its much lower wages.

I read many people complain about tough visa and WP regulations but I don't think it is as difficult to obtain one as it may seem at first sight (and has been described in many threads on TV).

[wildoates]

Here at the village, the english teachers will approch my wife and myself with helping them. What the write is always wrong, and a lot to the materials they have are wrong. What is so funny is that the wife is going to open a english class, to help the village kids and people. Some of the teachers have approched her to help teach. Strange, they can't teach them in school, but can for a fee??

[KhaoNiaw]

When I found mistakes with the questions or answers in my daughter's homework, I would write a note explaining and giving the corrections. That never caused any problems and the teacher would sometimes reply with a thank-you note. But it was always done quietly, just passed on to the teacher without my daughter having to do anything except act as intermediary.

Her Mathayom teachers are very good though, and a couple of them ask me to proofread their self-produced material.

In university English departments that I have experience of, the standards are high. Very few of the Thai staff would be worth replacing with your common or garden farang. They really need to take measures to encourage people of this level to move into the lower levels of the education system.

Edited November 15, 2009 by KhaoNiaw

[ThaiRich]

Well lets see, here is a thai teacher prob with a masters who feels they worked very hard for it and thinks their english is great and you are going to insult her by correcting her grammar ? What did you expect ??? And I must ask why are you doing your daughters homework for her ? even correcting the questions ? I can see helping her but thats a little much, I am sure the thai teacher can see it was someone else who did the work being you did it in perfect english, yeah I would give a 0 for that kind of stuff too, its called copying.

Yeah, it's called copying. That is how abou 95% of the students in school do their work. hel_l, the teachers encourage it. Dude what do you think, your in the west.

Again, I only have 5 years experience teaching in Thai schools, so I might be wrong.

[Yimmy]

'You're' not 'your'

Please learn the subject you have been 'teaching' for 5 years. Thank you.

[Scott]

We do not permit nit-picking of grammar and spelling on this forum. The forum is for information, not criticism.

Some people are not as adept at typing as others, some have limited time on the internet as well as a variety of reason why they may not have the time to check and re-check their spelling and grammar.

It's off-topic.

[thunder30101]

Yes DUDE it is called copying, And thats why at the university I teach at the students have had 12 years of teaching by teachers just like YOU !!! do not know the difference between a noun and a verb. I constantly see this crap of its okay, everyone does it yee freaking haw, and then people wonder why these students will never go anywhere but 7-11 or a moto repair shop. Your 5 years of collecting 30k per month has done wonders for your students you should be proud of yourself.

[cognos]

maybe that beautiful thai teacher was thinking "outside the box"

[BlackArtemis]

My wife tutored a kid who eventually became more proficient than his teacher. She had a "Masters" and touted it, but her English was worst than most BA students. She would report to his mother that he was a poor student etc etc. He would be thrown out of class for correcting her etc. Finnally he got his midterm back and he even found corrections to be made in that. She gave him a lower score than he truley got as well. I believe it was brought up to the higher ups, of course nothing happened, but the teacher did lose face. He is now pulling 4.0's at a much better school where he promptly moved to the following year.

Typical, a genius kid is told he is stupid just due to an issue over face.

[ThaiRich]

Yes DUDE it is called copying, And thats why at the university I teach at the students have had 12 years of teaching by teachers just like YOU !!! do not know the difference between a noun and a verb. I constantly see this crap of its okay, everyone does it yee freaking haw, and then people wonder why these students will never go anywhere but 7-11 or a moto repair shop. Your 5 years of collecting 30k per month has done wonders for your students you should be proud of yourself.

Dude you sound so bitter. It's as if your blaming me... Get to grips with yourself. I am not the one that teaches them to copy. It was a comment. The students are ENCOURAGED to copy homework and classwork. When did I ever write that I ENCOURAGED them to copy? Yes, it is ONE of the MANY challenges I face in the classroom on a daily basis. The statement is a fact. Let's clear one thing up. The reason your students do not know a verb from a noun is because the day that was taught by a THAI teacher they were talking with their friends and playing with their pencils, then went home and copied their friends homework. NOT BECAUSE I AM SUCH A HORRIBLE TEACHER!!! It's the same reason I am sure none of your students can copy and paste in MS word. Most of them probably can not explain the law of gravity. But I am sure that is my fault too. I have earned my salary every month and I am proud of that. You sound like you need to rotate back to the country from where you came. You sound like a bitter old woman. You need to see what is wrong with your method of teaching NOT what I might have taught them when they were in P1 and P2.

Edited November 16, 2009 by ThaiRich

[ThaiRich]

My wife tutored a kid who eventually became more proficient than his teacher. She had a "Masters" and touted it, but her English was worst than most BA students. She would report to his mother that he was a poor student etc etc. He would be thrown out of class for correcting her etc. Finnally he got his midterm back and he even found corrections to be made in that. She gave him a lower score than he truley got as well. I believe it was brought up to the higher ups, of course nothing happened, but the teacher did lose face. He is now pulling 4.0's at a much better school where he promptly moved to the following year.

Typical, a genius kid is told he is stupid just due to an issue over face.

You are absolutely correct. The moment a student becomes more proficient at a subject than the teacher the grades drop, the homework is marked as incorrect. I am surrounded by people that call themselves teacher that can not even say one sentence with proper grammar and prounouciation.

[ThaiRich]

Yes DUDE it is called copying, And thats why at the university I teach at the students have had 12 years of teaching by teachers just like YOU !!! do not know the difference between a noun and a verb. I constantly see this crap of its okay, everyone does it yee freaking haw, and then people wonder why these students will never go anywhere but 7-11 or a moto repair shop. Your 5 years of collecting 30k per month has done wonders for your students you should be proud of yourself.

Dude you sound so bitter. It's as if your blaming me... Get to grips with yourself. I am not the one that teaches them to copy. It was a comment. The students are ENCOURAGED to copy homework and classwork. When did I ever write that I ENCOURAGED them to copy? Yes, it is ONE of the MANY challenges I face in the classroom on a daily basis. The statement is a fact. Let's clear one thing up. The reason your students do not know a verb from a noun is because the day that was taught by a THAI teacher they were talking with their friends and playing with their pencils, then went home and copied their friends homework. NOT BECAUSE I AM SUCH A HORRIBLE TEACHER!!! It's the same reason I am sure none of your students can copy and paste in MS word. Most of them probably can not explain the law of gravity. But I am sure that is my fault too. I have earned my salary every month and I am proud of that. You sound like you need to rotate back to the country from where you came. You sound like a bitter old woman. You need to see what is wrong with your method of teaching NOT what I might have taught them when they were in P1 and P2.

P.S. I doubt your students have had 12 years of studying with a teacher like me. They probably have had 12 years of studying with a Thai English teacher who can not speak and the only grammar he/she knows is what she rote learned in school.