Ajahn Brahm Sanctioned, Monastery Loses Wat Nong Pa Pong Branch Status

[gburns57au]

I wonder how many have actually met Ajarn Brahm or have been to the aforementioned temple.?

[awd]

Brahm is very popular with the farang dharma population. I've met him a couple times at Vipassana gatherings and was impressed with his gift for teaching. Again, men are not ordained, women are not ordained; beings are ordained. This attempt to sex-up Buddhism by drawing up a bhikku-bhikkhuni spat is irrelevant to all but the most crusty unhappy monks.

[phetaroi]

Rocky, you are now changing the focus. I am not addressing that issue at all, nor am I saying that I personally agree with the decision. I am saying that you may have inadvertently jumped to an unwarranted conclusion about the Sangha doing something with the wrong intent.

Then I would put it: "What was the Sangha (Clergy)'s intent?"

If one conducts wrongful action due to ignorance, prejudice, or delusion then does intent matter?

Aren't there many in history who have had good intent but went on to perpetrate unacceptable things?

The answer to both of your questions above is, in my view, yes.

Yes, wrongful action is wrong. But let me ask this question, and I do not mean it disrespectfully -- is your knowledge of Buddhism so comprehensive that there is no possibility you might be wrong. If so, by your own definition, you have committed a wrongful action through ignorance.

Prejudice is a very iffy word. Sometimes there are logical reasons for what might be identified as prejudice. It's not clear to me that the Sangha preventing women from being ordained in prejudice. It seems to me they really believe women are not equipped to play this role from an historical or cultural viewpoint. I'm not saying that's right, I'm saying I think that may be a factor.

Very few people are "good" or "bad" in all things. Lyndon Johnson is vilified by some for his role in the Vietnam War. But what about his role in domestic policy, including the most sweeping changes in civil rights in American history? Efforts to fight poverty? Improvement in education? Etc. So, was he a "good" or a "bad" president? He had good intent, but he perpetrated some unacceptable things.

Few things -- including Buddhism -- are black or white.

[camerata]

I wonder how many have actually met Ajarn Brahm or have been to the aforementioned temple.?

I've been to one Dhamma talk by him, done a one-day retreat with him, and read both of his books.

[camerata]

If a Bikkhuni is necessary to officiate who ordained the first?

The Buddha himself. At that time an ordination was simply the Buddha saying, "Come, Bhikkhu."

Could this be construed as political or egotistical?

Perhaps "misguided" would be a better word. Remember that the Buddha said his followers could change the minor Vinaya rules (and ordination is certainly not minor) but at the First Council even the arahants couldn't decide on what to change, so they didn't change anything. So there is this tradition in Theravada of not changing any of the original rules - preserving the original rules of the Buddha. Although ignoring the rules seems to be OK. Along with this is a fear that if one changes some rules, it'll be the thin end of the wedge and the true Vinaya will be lost.

[rockyysdt]

Yes, wrongful action is wrong. But let me ask this question, and I do not mean it disrespectfully -- is your knowledge of Buddhism so comprehensive that there is no possibility you might be wrong. If so, by your own definition, you have committed a wrongful action through ignorance.

No disrespect taken.

I'm definitely a novice & make no claims of great knowledge.

It's not clear to me that the Sangha preventing women from being ordained is prejudice. It seems to me they really believe women are not equipped to play this role from an historical or cultural viewpoint. I'm not saying that's right, I'm saying I think that may be a factor.

If they do then they are judging women by their sexual physiology & not as individual beings.

Women or men should be judged not by the gender they were born with.

This is what is known:

According to Buddhist scriptures, the order of bhikkhunis was first created by the Buddha.

According to Theravada tradition, the bhikkhuni order of nuns came to be 5 years after the bhikkhu order of monks.

In Buddhism, women can openly aspire to and practice for the highest level of spiritual attainment.

The Buddha explicitly states in canonical literature that a woman is as capable of nirvana as a man, and can fully attain all 4 stages of enlightenment in the Dhamma and Vinaya of the Buddha Sasana

Barring women from ordination denies them from the benefits of monks.

Very few people are "good" or "bad" in all things. Lyndon Johnson is vilified by some for his role in the Vietnam War. But what about his role in domestic policy, including the most sweeping changes in civil rights in American history? Efforts to fight poverty? Improvement in education? Etc. So, was he a "good" or a "bad" president? He had good intent, but he perpetrated some unacceptable things.

Few things -- including Buddhism -- are black or white.

I don't know his specific role or level of control but accepting such a role comes with such draw backs.

I would have pulled out the troops.

It was all political anyway.

[gburns57au]

Brahm is very popular with the farang dharma population. I've met him a couple times at Vipassana gatherings and was impressed with his gift for teaching. Again, men are not ordained, women are not ordained; beings are ordained. This attempt to sex-up Buddhism by drawing up a bhikku-bhikkhuni spat is irrelevant to all but the most crusty unhappy monks.

I wonder how many have actually met Ajarn Brahm or have been to the aforementioned temple.?

I've been to one Dhamma talk by him, done a one-day retreat with him, and read both of his books.

I have met him and been to the temples here in Perth, I am not a Buddhist but my wife is fairly devout being a Thai lass.

Some of the things I have noticed about him leave me shaking my head...he has attended at various festivals but tends to gravitate towards the so called hi-so crowd and basically ignores the "common people", I dont know if this is normal for an Abbot or not

He deferred a traditional festive day function here a number of years ago for a week because he had a lunch appointment with the then Premier G Gallop. About 60 people attended on the first day only to have to come back the following week.

It is getting rare to see him at either of the temples here because he always seems to be off somewhere conducting talks etc... or promoting his books. I do allow for the fact that he has been to see his sick mother recently.

I dont know what all this business means to the temple here but my concern would be on how would it affect our Thai community here. My understanding is that it means that temple here will be an independant entity. Quite a few of the Thais here are now starting to question his motives and asking "Is he becoming less of a Monk for the people and more of a Monk for Ajarn Brahm."

So going on his history here, it wouldnt surprise me to learn that he has acted in a covert manner in this issue. Again it seems that Ajarn Brahm will do what he wants to do irrespective of other people.

[phetaroi]

If they do then they are judging women by their sexual physiology & not as individual beings.

Women or men should be judged not by the gender they were born with.

This is what is known:

According to Buddhist scriptures, the order of bhikkhunis was first created by the Buddha.

According to Theravada tradition, the bhikkhuni order of nuns came to be 5 years after the bhikkhu order of monks.

In Buddhism, women can openly aspire to and practice for the highest level of spiritual attainment.

The Buddha explicitly states in canonical literature that a woman is as capable of nirvana as a man, and can fully attain all 4 stages of enlightenment in the Dhamma and Vinaya of the Buddha Sasana

Barring women from ordination denies them from the benefits of monks.

Very few people are "good" or "bad" in all things. Lyndon Johnson is vilified by some for his role in the Vietnam War. But what about his role in domestic policy, including the most sweeping changes in civil rights in American history? Efforts to fight poverty? Improvement in education? Etc. So, was he a "good" or a "bad" president? He had good intent, but he perpetrated some unacceptable things.

Few things -- including Buddhism -- are black or white.

I don't know his specific role or level of control but accepting such a role comes with such draw backs.

I would have pulled out the troops.

It was all political anyway.

Rocky, I will say again that not only do I not have a problem with you believing what you believe, but from my personal perspective I come down much closer to your side of the argument.

On the other hand, I wish you could understand that you are placing your knowledge of Buddhist thought as being higher than that of the Sangha. And I have no problem with that, but I think you should see it as it is.

One of the most attractive things about Buddhism to me is that we are allowed to use thought and/or logic, rather than in the Catholic Church, for example, where the Pope is often considered infallible on matters of faith (and even more humorous to me is that he is infallible when he says he is infallible). Of course, that one can use their own thought and logic in Buddhism, makes it a faith (which is what I see Buddhism as being) much more open to interpretation.

So for me, if I have to state my belief about something in Buddhism, first I will use my own interpretation of things based on my understanding and logic, second I will believe in the Sangha position, and somewhere down the list I will say, "I believe in Rocky's interpretation of Buddhism."

Make no mistake, I give you a great deal of credit for being a poster who truly thinks about the issues.

[Xangsamhua]

One of the most attractive things about Buddhism to me is that we are allowed to use thought and/or logic, rather than in the Catholic Church, for example, where the Pope is often considered infallible on matters of faith (and even more humorous to me is that he is infallible when he says he is infallible).

"Often", Phetaroi?

While not disagreeing with you on the main point (papal infallibility is pretty hard to defend, as Hans Kung and innumerable liberal Catholics have pointed out over many years), to my understanding it has only been exercised six times in the history of the Church - the first in AD449 (at the Council of Chalcedon) and the last in 1950 (the Assumption of Mary).

More recent instances of Papal teaching assumed by many to be "infallible" pronouncements of the pope (e.g. John Paul II's Apostolic Letter on the reservation of ordination to men only) are not ex cathedra, an infallible papal pronouncement, but seen (by the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith) as "infallible" by virtue of the fact that this teaching is consistent with the teaching of the bishops and the whole church throughout its history. (So you're free to disagree, but if you do anything the CDF will come down on you.)

It seems the Thai Sangha regards the denial of ordination to women on much the same sort of rationale as it is denied in the Roman Catholic, Eastern Rite and Eastern Orthodox Churches. This is what happens when leaders always look backwards for guidance and where preservation of the legal, ritual and structural inheritance takes priority over applying essential ethical and practical teaching to the present and future. Leaders fear that, if they let go of one thing, the whole edifice might collapse.

[phetaroi]

"Often", Phetaroi?

While not disagreeing with you on the main point (papal infallibility is pretty hard to defend, as Hans Kung and innumerable liberal Catholics have pointed out over many years), to my understanding it has only been exercised six times in the history of the Church - the first in AD449 (at the Council of Chalcedon) and the last in 1950 (the Assumption of Mary).

More recent instances of Papal teaching assumed by many to be "infallible" pronouncements of the pope (e.g. John Paul II's Apostolic Letter on the reservation of ordination to men only) are not ex cathedra, an infallible papal pronouncement, but seen (by the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith) as "infallible" by virtue of the fact that this teaching is consistent with the teaching of the bishops and the whole church throughout its history. (So you're free to disagree, but if you do anything the CDF will come down on you.)

It seems the Thai Sangha regards the denial of ordination to women on much the same sort of rationale as it is denied in the Roman Catholic, Eastern Rite and Eastern Orthodox Churches. This is what happens when leaders always look backwards for guidance and where preservation of the legal, ritual and structural inheritance takes priority over applying essential ethical and practical teaching to the present and future. Leaders fear that, if they let go of one thing, the whole edifice might collapse.

You are correct...I stand corrected.

[bankei]

Brahm is very popular with the farang dharma population. I've met him a couple times at Vipassana gatherings and was impressed with his gift for teaching. Again, men are not ordained, women are not ordained; beings are ordained. This attempt to sex-up Buddhism by drawing up a bhikku-bhikkhuni spat is irrelevant to all but the most crusty unhappy monks.

I wonder how many have actually met Ajarn Brahm or have been to the aforementioned temple.?

I've been to one Dhamma talk by him, done a one-day retreat with him, and read both of his books.

I have met him and been to the temples here in Perth, I am not a Buddhist but my wife is fairly devout being a Thai lass.

Some of the things I have noticed about him leave me shaking my head...he has attended at various festivals but tends to gravitate towards the so called hi-so crowd and basically ignores the "common people", I dont know if this is normal for an Abbot or not

He deferred a traditional festive day function here a number of years ago for a week because he had a lunch appointment with the then Premier G Gallop. About 60 people attended on the first day only to have to come back the following week.

It is getting rare to see him at either of the temples here because he always seems to be off somewhere conducting talks etc... or promoting his books. I do allow for the fact that he has been to see his sick mother recently.

I dont know what all this business means to the temple here but my concern would be on how would it affect our Thai community here. My understanding is that it means that temple here will be an independant entity. Quite a few of the Thais here are now starting to question his motives and asking "Is he becoming less of a Monk for the people and more of a Monk for Ajarn Brahm."

So going on his history here, it wouldnt surprise me to learn that he has acted in a covert manner in this issue. Again it seems that Ajarn Brahm will do what he wants to do irrespective of other people.

Yes it is interesting to see jet-setting 'forest monks'. Many of the so-called forest monks jet around the world at great expense.

[bankei]

As for the ordination, I don't see anything wrong with it. The Bhikkhuni lineage is not dead, but has survived within the Chinese based Buddhism - China, Taiwan, Korea. It was introduced into China from Sri Lanka at one stage. The ceremony was conducted by properly ordained Bhikkhuni.

The trouble is conservative Thai Theravada monks do not consider the Chinese lineage valid.

First of all it is not Theravada, but the Dharmaguptaka lineage. This vinaya has more rules than Theravada and is different in many areas.

Secondly, it seems the Chinese are not as concerned about minor details as Theravadins. Theravadins tend to be nit pickers when following all the minor things to the letter. eg. in Sri Lanka a dispute arose within the Siyam Nikaya (Mahanikaya introduced lineage). One group performed an ordination in a 'water siima'. This is a boundary made by water. (Monastic acts need to be carried out by unanimous decisions of all the monks in the 'area' so the concept of Siima developed. Siima is a boundary, usually defined by stones). As there was no siima boundary established they performed an ordination on a little island because water boudary is considered a natural siima. But there was a plank left connecting the island to the mainland. One group declared these ordinations was invalid because of the plank. The dispute grew and today there are 2 separate groups within the Siyam Nikaya who declare the other lineage invalid - though they seem to have come to accept each other.

Thirdly, the Chinese lineage is considered to have been broken at stages. eg in Korea the lineage died out during the Japanese occupation and then was introduced but only with the ordination by Bhikkhuni, not the dual ordination. Also at times in China it had been broken and then re-established in less than proper fashion.

In Thailand King Mongkut set up the Dhammayut Nikaya because he considered the Thai monks corrupt and the lineage broken in the past. There are questions abotu the validity of the Mahanikaya monks - but these days this is all forgotten

This ordination is not 100% pure because the Theravada lineage had died out, but this is as close as it can get. There are no guarantees that the Bhikkhu ordination lineage has remained intact for 2500 years, but so what? does it really matter in the end?

In time the Bhikkhuni will come to be accepted. There are already about 20 Bhikkhuni in Thailand and hundreds in Sri Lanka and more throughout the west.

[sabaijai]

Yes it is interesting to see jet-setting 'forest monks'. Many of the so-called forest monks jet around the world at great expense.

"Many"?

[rockyysdt]

This ordination is not 100% pure because the Theravada lineage had died out, but this is as close as it can get. There are no guarantees that the Bhikkhu ordination lineage has remained intact for 2500 years, but so what? does it really matter in the end?

Very interesting bankei.

It seems the Thai Theravada (Monastic) Sangha values lineage over reform (Bikkhuni ordination) even though their own lineage is broken.

Did the Buddha state the value of lineage & emphasize it over any other consideration?

Why is lineage revered so much?

In time the Bhikkhuni will come to be accepted. There are already about 20 Bhikkhuni in Thailand and hundreds in Sri Lanka and more throughout the west.

Why doesn't someone amongst us who is enlightened proclaim the validity of Bikkhuni ordination so that many can begin their lifes devotion to the Dhamma?

[clausewitz]

There are no guarantees that the Bhikkhu ordination lineage has remained intact for 2500 years, but so what? does it really matter in the end?

If indeed the lineage of all Thervada Bhikkhus is broken then there are now no bhikkhus in the world. However what proof do you have that this is in fact the case.?

[khaowong1]

The best of Thailand all seem to be living outside of Thailand ...

Does that include a certain ex P.M? LOL!

Yes........ nearly all politicians worldwide are corrupt.....power corrupts remember...so instead of choosing the best candidate we are forced to choose the least worst.....

ain't that the truth...

[sabaijai]

There's an interesting commentary on the problem by Phra Cittasamvaro here. According to him, Ajahn and his monks have not been expelled from the Thai Sangha, they've just been expelled from the Ajahn Chah group of temples.

An important distinction. I've amended the topic title to reflect this.

[camerata]

Some more articles about bhikkhuni at GlobalPost and by googling on "Sangha split opens doors for women". And then there's the Theravadin Saranloka Foundation with it's distinctly feminine Prajnaparamita (Perfection of Wisdom) statue.

[camerata]

Five Point Agreement just released from Ajahn Sumedho for Siladhara in UK monasteries:

1. The structural relationahip as indicated by the Vinaya of the Bhikkhu Sangha to the Siladhara Sangha is one of seniority, such as the most junior bhikkhu is senior to the most senior siladhara. As this relationship of seniority is defined over time it is not subject to change.

2. In line with this, in ritual situations where both bhikkhu and siladhara - such as giving anumodana and precepts - leading the chanting or giving a talk - is always presumed to rest with the senior bhikkhu present. He may in some cases invite a senior siladhara to lead. Yet if this is a regular invitation it does not imply a new standard of shared leadership.

3. The Bhikkhu sangha will be responsible for the pabbajja (ordination) the way Ajahn Sumedho has been in the past. The siladhara look to the Bhikkhu sangha for ordination and guidance rather than exclusively Ajahn Sumedho. A candidate for siladhara should seek approval from the Siladhara Sangha and then receive acceptance by the Bhikkhu sangha as represented by those Bhikkhus who sit on the elder council

4. The formal ritual of giving pavarana (invitation for feed back) by the Siladhara Sangha to the Bhikkhu Sangha should take place at the end of Vassa as it has in our communities traditionally: according to the structure of the Vinaya (NB - this excludes any possibility of the Bhikkhu sangha inviting feed back from the Siladhara sangha)

5. The Siladhara training is considered to be a vehicle already suitable for the realization for liberation, and is respected as such within our tradition. It is offered as a complete training as it stands, and it is not a step to a different form, such as Bhikkhuni Ordination.

http://bit.ly/LiMdt

E-petition regarding female ordination here.

[Samuian]

"Thai Sangha Law..."

makes my head spin!

Is one more reason why I think that Bikkhu Buddhadasa was right with his "NO RELIGION"!

Some of these matters should, in earnest be very well scrutinized and the question raised: "could this still be

called Buddhism"?

I think it is a contradiction to the Idea of the "Path of Liberation"... only men can become monks?

There is something seriously wrong!

But then there are nuns in many other Schools of faiths....can anyone reduce the Sangha to be an exclusive male members club only?

Like one Sangha considers another branch "not legitimate"...

Yes, jetting around the globe...

silken, costly garments...

hoarding of property and money...

meddling in politics...

already to assume the authority to judge about others who try to follow the same/similar path...

the Buddha himself supposed to have always pointed out to be critically/....

and last not least: NO women, no monks in the first place - is it this what has some so upset.. and stiff necked?

It seems so....

Edited November 19, 2009 by Samuian

[sabaijai]

Bhikkhuni and Western Sangha split

The late forest monk and meditation master Luang Por Chah was a true visionary. While his peers did not bother with training Western monks, he did it seriously at his Wat Pah Pong forest monastery in Ubon Ratchathani. Not only that. The far-sighted master also sent his fleet of phra farang to share with the Western world the gems of Theravada Buddhist practices and teachings.

Now, there are nearly 20 international branches of the forest monasteries in the Luang Por Chah tradition overseas. True, the Ecclesiastical Council also sends Thai monks to ''spread Thai Buddhism'' abroad. But the Thai-speaking monks primarily provide religious rites, rituals and a Thai cultural cocoon for Thai immigrants far from home.

In contrast, the strictly disciplined phra farang focus on the core teachings and the practice of vipassana meditation to help people fill their inner void with Buddhist spirituality. When the Thai clergy is deeply buried in feudalism and ridden with misconduct, these phra farang are indeed a breath of fresh air. They have proved that monks can indeed remain relevant in the modern world if they are just true to their monastic life and spiritual pursuit.

But success entails great expectations. The greatest expectation, and the most controversial, is the full ordination of women as Bhikkhunis.

cont'd:

http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=70,8711,0,0,1,0

[rockyysdt]

"Thai Sangha Law..."

makes my head spin!

Is one more reason why I think that Bikkhu Buddhadasa was right with his "NO RELIGION"!

Some of these matters should, in earnest be very well scrutinized and the question raised: "could this still be

called Buddhism"?

I think it is a contradiction to the Idea of the "Path of Liberation"... only men can become monks?

There is something seriously wrong!

But then there are nuns in many other Schools of faiths....can anyone reduce the Sangha to be an exclusive male members club only?

Like one Sangha considers another branch "not legitimate"...

Yes, jetting around the globe...

silken, costly garments...

hoarding of property and money...

meddling in politics...

already to assume the authority to judge about others who try to follow the same/similar path...

the Buddha himself supposed to have always pointed out to be critically/....

and last not least: NO women, no monks in the first place - is it this what has some so upset.. and stiff necked?

It seems so....

What's concerning is that the folly you illustrate comes from senior Sangha members, individuals who, one would imagine, might possess a higher level of realisation than appears to be displayed.

Edited November 20, 2009 by rockyysdt

[bankei]

Yes it is interesting to see jet-setting 'forest monks'. Many of the so-called forest monks jet around the world at great expense.

"Many"?

Yes, many. These WAM meetings are held all over the world. Brahm was 'summoned' to Thailand by his group leaders and he had to fly out at a few days notice. The WAM meeting was going to be held in Perth with many monks coming from England, NZ, Thailand, etc. It has now been changed to Thailand. There are also teaching engagements overseas these monks fly to etc.. They get around a fair bit.

I am not sure it is a bad thing, expecially these days, but it is interesting that these 'ascetic' monks who refuse to drink milk in the afternoon are high flyers.

[bankei]

There are no guarantees that the Bhikkhu ordination lineage has remained intact for 2500 years, but so what? does it really matter in the end?

If indeed the lineage of all Thervada Bhikkhus is broken then there are now no bhikkhus in the world. However what proof do you have that this is in fact the case.?

I have no proof.

But it is interesting the prince Mongkut, before he was a King, did not want to ordain under the Thai sangha because he thought the lineage was not pure.

It is also interesting that there have been several high profile Abbots of recent years who have been disrobed due to sexual scandals. One a few years ago got a long jail sentence. What happened to all the monks they ordained?

How do you know the what the ordaining monks are concealing?

The Englishman known as Sangharakshita was ordained in India over 50 years ago and he later found out many of the ordaining monks at his ordination had mistresses and children. He has written about this in a few of his books, one called "43 years ago". He maintained that although he was ordained, he was technically never a monk. (But he seemed to have strayed early on as a 'monk' and was using this as a justification of his own homosexual behavious).

Wat Pah Pong monks won't do any ceremonies with other monks of the same Nikaya, Mahanikaya, such as ordinations or chanting the Patimokha. They obviously question the lineage to which they belong.

My point is that if you look hard enough there are questions about all the lineages being intact.

[bankei]

The latest development.

The supreme patriarch (acting) has revoked Ajahn Brahm's preceptor status. He can no longer ordain monks under the 'thai system'.

Under the vinaya a preceptor needs to have been a monk for at least 10 years. In Thailand there are additional requirements impossed by the State that only monks licenced as preceptors can ordain other monks. To get the licence an exam needs to be passed and there are additional requirements.

So it seems in Thailand the rules of the State can over ride the vinaya.

It is likely that Ajahn Brahm will continue to ordain outside of Thailand, but the monks he ordains will not be regarded as coming under the Thai Sangha. It may be that they are still considered validly ordained, maybe similar to the monks of Sri Lanka, or Burma, but it could create minor problems for those monks if they wish to spend time living in Thailand.

[Brucenkhamen]

But it is interesting the prince Mongkut, before he was a King, did not want to ordain under the Thai sangha because he thought the lineage was not pure.

He did not want to ordain under the Thai Sangha of the time because their vinaya was not pure. At least that's how the history of it is portrayed as far as I know, if you have information on the lineage not being pure I'd be interested in taking a look.

[sabaijai]

But it is interesting the prince Mongkut, before he was a King, did not want to ordain under the Thai sangha because he thought the lineage was not pure.

He did not want to ordain under the Thai Sangha of the time because their vinaya was not pure. At least that's how the history of it is portrayed as far as I know, if you have information on the lineage not being pure I'd be interested in taking a look.

Mongkut admired the Mon interpretation of the Vinaya so he established the Thammayut Nikaya. As far as I know both nikaya belong to the same ordination lineage.

[bankei]

But it is interesting the prince Mongkut, before he was a King, did not want to ordain under the Thai sangha because he thought the lineage was not pure.

He did not want to ordain under the Thai Sangha of the time because their vinaya was not pure. At least that's how the history of it is portrayed as far as I know, if you have information on the lineage not being pure I'd be interested in taking a look.

Hi Bruce

I have the book "Buddha Sasana Vamsa" written by the Sangharaja Phra Nyanasamvara. This book outlines the history of the Dhammayutika Nikaya.

It wouldn't have been wise to outrightly say the lineage of the Thai Buddhism was broken or corrupt. But Mongkut wouldn't have sought ordination elsewhere if he didn't consider it so.

from the book:

In 1824 Mongkut ordained at Wat Mahathat. He quickly came to see the erroneneous practices and became disheartened. He met a Mon Bhikkhu in 1825 and was greatly impressed, soon reordaning under this lineage.

But, he had the siima stones (Boundary markers) dug up and found the siima had not been properly established. This would have invalidated the ordination, so he was reordained again by 18 Mon Bhikkhu in a water boundary siima (udakukhepa siima). Mongkut is also said to have reordained again under a group of 28 visiiting Sri Lankan Bhikkhu from Thuparama Vihara in Sri Lanka. This was around 1830. It is difficult to ascertain how many times he reordained.

Others were reordained by Mon monks with one monk, Buddhasiri reordaining 7 times before he considered the ceremony to be done with perfection.

A valid ordination is said to depend on 5 factors:

1, Sima-sampatti or validity of the boundary

2, purisa-sampatti or validity of the quorum

3, vatthu-sampatti or validity of the candidate

4, natti-sampatti or validity of the motion

5, anusavana-sampatti or validity of the announcement

The Dhammayut had its origins in the Mon tradition which traces its origins from the Kalyani Siima in Rammanya Burma. This in turn traces its origins to a group of monks who went to Sri Lanka and reordained there in a siima on the Kalyani river.

Bankei

[sabaijai]

Thai Buddhist council severs ties with Perth monastery over women

Dec 22, 2009, 8:24 GMT

Bangkok - Thailand's Sangha Supreme Council which governs the country's Buddhist monkhood has severed all ties with an Australian monastery for ordaining two female monks, media reports said Tuesday.

'The expulsion took effect Monday after the council had ruled to cancel the monastery's status as a branch of Wat Nongpapong in Ubon Ratchathani province,' The Nation online news site reported.

While the expulsion means the Bodhinyana monastery in Perth can no longer claim to be 'sanctified' by links with the famed Forest Temple in Ubon Ratchathani it does not mean its temple status in Australia has been revoked.

The Perth monastery was established by British-born Phra (monk) Brahmavamso Mahathera, who graduated from Cambridge College in theoretical physics and studied Buddhism under renowned Thai monk Luang Por Chah for years before setting up his own temple.

Phra Brahmavamso recently allowed two bhikkhuni, or female monks, be ordained in Perth although the Theravada sect of Buddhism arguably forbids such a practice.

The Thai Sangha had initially threatened to excommunicate the British-born monk, but instead decided to sever ties with his monastery as a warning against more bhikkhuni ordinations, The Nation said.

'Women can be ordained only in the Mahayana Buddhist sect, but in Theravada, we don't have bhikkhuni,' Somdej Phra Phutthacharn, a chief adviser to the Sangha, said.

There are two main sects in Buddhism - Theravada (the little wheel) and Mahayana (the big wheel) - with the former claiming to adhere closer to the Buddha's teachings.

Whether the Buddha, who ascended to nirvana 2,552 years ago, forbid or allowed women to become monks has always been a hotly disputed religious question but has become more so as many Westerners, male and female, have been drawn to the Eastern religion in recent years.

-DPA

[Sarathi]

The article is not quite clear.

First, I think it was 4 bhikkhunis who ordained not two. Also Ajahn Brahm did not establish the monastery; it was Ajahn Jagaro. Ajahn Brahm took over later. This means the temple was funded by mostly Thais who donated to Ajahn Chah - thus there is an obligation for the temple to follow closely the Ajahn Chah lineage.

The article does not distinguish between the Sangha Council, the Ajahn Chah tradition, and the Somdeth Phuttacharn. The Ajahn Chah group certainly delisted the temple as a branch in their group. I doubt the 'Thailand's Supreme Sangha Council' delisted the temple in any way (unless this is a new development?). The Somdeth certainly seemed to side with the Ajahn Chah lineage in declaring that Bhikkhunis only exist in the Mahayana line, and that the ordainees are not to be considered Theravada nuns.

In fact the preceptor, Tathaaloka Bhikkhuni ordained in the Mahayana line, though she also had some Theravada monks in the monk quorum at her ordination, without controversy.

The artilce Sabaijai quoted does not make any of this clear, and seems to suggest that the Sangha Council have delisted the Perth temple altogether, which I seriously doubt has happened. In fact there would be no real way they could do so in any official capacity.

The reality is the Ajahn Chah temples delisted Ajahn Brahm's temple due to his not following their protocol. But the temple is still a good temple, with Theravada monks, and a respected teacher. In the Thai eyes the nuns might be counted as Samaneris, or Mahayana nuns according to ones view.

That said, the affair should blow over without majour issue, and the Bhikkhuni issue will continue to creep into the acceptance of the Thai Sangha over time.

Thai Buddhist council severs ties with Perth monastery over women

Dec 22, 2009, 8:24 GMT

Bangkok - Thailand's Sangha Supreme Council which governs the country's Buddhist monkhood has severed all ties with an Australian monastery for ordaining two female monks, media reports said Tuesday.

'The expulsion took effect Monday after the council had ruled to cancel the monastery's status as a branch of Wat Nongpapong in Ubon Ratchathani province,' The Nation online news site reported.

While the expulsion means the Bodhinyana monastery in Perth can no longer claim to be 'sanctified' by links with the famed Forest Temple in Ubon Ratchathani it does not mean its temple status in Australia has been revoked.

The Perth monastery was established by British-born Phra (monk) Brahmavamso Mahathera, who graduated from Cambridge College in theoretical physics and studied Buddhism under renowned Thai monk Luang Por Chah for years before setting up his own temple.

Phra Brahmavamso recently allowed two bhikkhuni, or female monks, be ordained in Perth although the Theravada sect of Buddhism arguably forbids such a practice.

The Thai Sangha had initially threatened to excommunicate the British-born monk, but instead decided to sever ties with his monastery as a warning against more bhikkhuni ordinations, The Nation said.

'Women can be ordained only in the Mahayana Buddhist sect, but in Theravada, we don't have bhikkhuni,' Somdej Phra Phutthacharn, a chief adviser to the Sangha, said.

There are two main sects in Buddhism - Theravada (the little wheel) and Mahayana (the big wheel) - with the former claiming to adhere closer to the Buddha's teachings.

Whether the Buddha, who ascended to nirvana 2,552 years ago, forbid or allowed women to become monks has always been a hotly disputed religious question but has become more so as many Westerners, male and female, have been drawn to the Eastern religion in recent years.

-DPA