Mia Farang Perceptions

[fletchsmile]

I came across the following paper on the internet, which I thought was interesting, entitled:

GLOBAL WIFE, LOCAL DAUGHTER: GENDER, FAMILY, AND NATION IN TRANSNATIONAL MARRIAGES IN NORHTEAST THAILAND

by Sirijit Sunanta

https://circle.ubc.ca/bitstream/2429/6267/1...nta_sirijit.pdf

takes a while to load as 190+ pages

or

https://circle.ubc.ca/handle/2429/6267

then click view/open

Admittedly I only skim read it all, but downloaded ito to pdf to skim in more detail. Chapter 5 in particular "The Perceptions of Mia Farangs (Foreigners’ Wives) in Thai society" seemed interesting.

The interesting parts to me was that it was written by a Thai, and tried to provide a rationale balanced approach, even challenging and disagreeing with some of the stereotypical and brainwashed views in society. In addition it is written with some recent history as context. The infuence of the urban elite on the rural poor is a common undercurrent.

It's something that comes up from time to time on TV, so I thought some of the people here might be interested, and who knows maybe even there might be some mature comments on the topic to add here... An extract from the conclusion is food for thought below, and I sort of wonder how a similar plea would fare on Thai Visa

"My plea for a more nuanced analysis comes with an urging to incorporate more reflexive and inclusive acknowledgement that will give way to tolerance, if not respect, to Mia Farangs, their families, and rural community. The media, as well as academic scholarship and government research and policy, cognizant of this reflexive acknowledgement and tolerance, will have to consider alternative depictions and lines of inquiry into the Phua Farang phenomenon. For starters, the patronizing, condescending and moralistic undertones of current media representations of Mia Farangs will have to give way to a more sympathetic understanding and examination of their lived experiences, available resources, visions, and aspiration. Moreover, the Phua Farang phenomenon in Isan signals the need to reconsider Thailand’s regional income gap and persistent inequalities and hierarchical power relations between the urban and the rural".

Remember this is one educated Thai lady's viewpoint...not necessarily the view of this farang wizard....

Edit: Posted in wrong forum originally in Family and Children, so cut and paste here. Couldn't work out how to delete the blank one I left there as a duplicate - apologies

Edited November 10, 2009 by fletchsmile

[mahtin]

Interesting that it was copyrighted in 2009 but refers to statistics dated 2003-2004, when 15,000 women fell into the category.

That figure has by now undoubtedly increased by a factor of - one can only speculate.

[Nio]

Maybe is she could get the rest of Thailand thinking this way, farangs could own land and not have such a hard time with VISA's

Very interesting article.

[MiG16]

those that have been in Thailand from say 20, maybe even 15 years ago would realise that perceptions and acceptance level of thai-farang relationship has progressed by a long way.

previously, no respectable girl would want to be seen walking with a farang man, let alone be holding his hand. and yes Im talking about in Bangkok. these days - all is fair go, certainly in Bangkok, while upcountry you may still be looked upon a bit weird if showing any intimacy in public, but dating a farang guys is no longer taboo.

[mizzi39]

Very interesting article. Thanks for the download!

[sbk]

those that have been in Thailand from say 20, maybe even 15 years ago would realise that perceptions and acceptance level of thai-farang relationship has progressed by a long way.

previously, no respectable girl would want to be seen walking with a farang man, let alone be holding his hand. and yes Im talking about in Bangkok. these days - all is fair go, certainly in Bangkok, while upcountry you may still be looked upon a bit weird if showing any intimacy in public, but dating a farang guys is no longer taboo.

I beg to differ a little Miggie. While I wouldn't say taboo, I would still say that ,IME, the perception that a good girl does not marry a farang is still quite prevalent outside the big cities. Perhaps my experience only reflects that of the South where I live, I couldn't tell you about Isaan or other parts of the country. (and PDA's? only acceptable among teenagers)

But remember, I have been on an island that has been frequented by tourists for a very very long time and I can count the number of local women that I know who are married to foreigners on one hand. I am sure there are more in other parts of the island but I do have quite an extensive acquaintance so feel that my knowledge is, at least, applicable to the island as a whole. Please note that I emphasize the term local, I am talking about women born and raised in the community in which they live. I am not talking about non-island women who have since moved onto the island.

I'd have to note that the general opinion extends to male Thai/farang female relationships as well. A few years after my husband and I got married (so yes, a very long time ago, but my experiences have shown to me that the general attitude still remains prevalent) he was asked why he married a farang since he wasn't poor.

[fletchsmile]

those that have been in Thailand from say 20, maybe even 15 years ago would realise that perceptions and acceptance level of thai-farang relationship has progressed by a long way.

previously, no respectable girl would want to be seen walking with a farang man, let alone be holding his hand. and yes Im talking about in Bangkok. these days - all is fair go, certainly in Bangkok, while upcountry you may still be looked upon a bit weird if showing any intimacy in public, but dating a farang guys is no longer taboo.

MiG

I'd agree that perceptions of these relationships have changed a lot in the last 15-20 years. I'd also say though that they've become a bit more polarised after the Asian crisis. In some ways there have been backward steps in the last 10 years, after the crisis and then with nationalism such as Thaksin/Purachai, the struggle to maintain power by the urban elite.

I wouldn't go as far as to say it's all fair go either and no longer taboo. There are thankfully becoming more females/ people generally like you with these views, but there are also a lot that retain the old taboos and prejudices, and in times of internal strife within a country, it's often when they start focusing on foreigners - hence some of the backward steps in this decade.

[MiG16]

LOL fletch

lemme make some clarification

while I talk about perceptions/acceptance level changing, that does not quite apply to me

it is still taboo in my family, particularly for me, to marry a farang Mom wouldnt approve.

SBK - Im sure your experience applies to a majority of small town /villages Thailand even today. what I meant by my post was that, previously even in a big city like Bangkok, an educated Thai woman seen walking around with a well dressed farang guy will be subject to a lot of diapproving looks from strangers, and gossip and confrontation with the family by those they know.

these days such practice will not raise the same confrontation, but will probably still raise some inquisitive questioning by friends and relatives of the girl.

[Heng]

Both stereotypical mia and pua farang IMO tend to create a good % of whatever perceptions are to be had about them. There's not some kind of media movement trying to undermine them if that's what folks are suggesting. It's the noticeable antsy lack of confidence, the fish out of water aura, and often at the other end of the spectrum, the loud overcompensating variety (like suddenly speaking in very loud broken English, French, German, etc. even if it's reading a menu or ingredients on a ketchup bottle, soon after they make eye contact with other locals).

That said, people tend not to notice the quiet spoken/well mannered/average everyday folks in any group, plenty of mia and pua farangs of that type as well.

[Birdman]

those that have been in Thailand from say 20, maybe even 15 years ago would realise that perceptions and acceptance level of thai-farang relationship has progressed by a long way.

previously, no respectable girl would want to be seen walking with a farang man, let alone be holding his hand. and yes Im talking about in Bangkok. these days - all is fair go, certainly in Bangkok, while upcountry you may still be looked upon a bit weird if showing any intimacy in public, but dating a farang guys is no longer taboo.

You might be partly right, but still the majority of Thais and Farangs as well, who see mixed couples here, assume, that the young and/or beautiful Thai partner must be a (ex) prostitute, even if she dresses "normally"

roe:next posting

Edited November 11, 2009 by Birdman

[Heng]

I'd say in most cases it's fairly obvious even in Thai-Thai relationships. Plenty of 'tells' and relatively few degrees of separation in society here. It's no different than how you might be more likely to be able to identify a sorority girl back home when a foreigner would only see 'girl in umbros, ball cap, and t-shirt.'

[mahtin]

I'd say in most cases it's fairly obvious even in Thai-Thai relationships. Plenty of 'tells' and relatively few degrees of separation in society here. It's no different than how you might be more likely to be able to identify a sorority girl back home when a foreigner would only see 'girl in umbros, ball cap, and t-shirt.'

Educate me, Heng, please.

Is this it (them)?

Umbro have recently launched their new hi-technology SX Boot. Deco has been playing in the boots which are visually striking with different colours for each foot, reflecting the left (logical, assertive) and right (intuitive, creative and passionate) sides of the brains. The boot uses Michelin tyre manufacturing-related technology which improves control by up to 90%.^{[citation needed]}

[F1fanatic]

LOL fletch

lemme make some clarification

while I talk about perceptions/acceptance level changing, that does not quite apply to me

it is still taboo in my family, particularly for me, to marry a farang Mom wouldnt approve.

SBK - Im sure your experience applies to a majority of small town /villages Thailand even today. what I meant by my post was that, previously even in a big city like Bangkok, an educated Thai woman seen walking around with a well dressed farang guy will be subject to a lot of diapproving looks from strangers, and gossip and confrontation with the family by those they know.

these days such practice will not raise the same confrontation, but will probably still raise some inquisitive questioning by friends and relatives of the girl.

Those "disapproving looks...and confrontation with family" may still apply in many areas and segments of society, but certainly not in Isaan! The families are overjoyed when their daughter brings home a farang.

I doubt attitudes are likely to change in the near future in any segment of society. The poor will be happy to see a farang brought into their family, the wealthy will be unhappy but prepared to change their minds once they get to know the partner and realise that their daughter/son will be loved and well cared for.

[barky]

those that have been in Thailand from say 20, maybe even 15 years ago would realise that perceptions and acceptance level of thai-farang relationship has progressed by a long way.

previously, no respectable girl would want to be seen walking with a farang man, let alone be holding his hand. and yes Im talking about in Bangkok. these days - all is fair go, certainly in Bangkok, while upcountry you may still be looked upon a bit weird if showing any intimacy in public, but dating a farang guys is no longer taboo.

MiG

I'd agree that perceptions of these relationships have changed a lot in the last 15-20 years. I'd also say though that they've become a bit more polarised after the Asian crisis. In some ways there have been backward steps in the last 10 years, after the crisis and then with nationalism such as Thaksin/Purachai, the struggle to maintain power by the urban elite.

I wouldn't go as far as to say it's all fair go either and no longer taboo. There are thankfully becoming more females/ people generally like you with these views, but there are also a lot that retain the old taboos and prejudices, and in times of internal strife within a country, it's often when they start focusing on foreigners - hence some of the backward steps in this decade.

I tend to agreewith this and also what SBK had said previously.

I guess as time goes by and the world becomes more coffee coloured and the big majority of Thais start to be better educated, more knowledgable, more travelled, and hopefully less myopic and far less nationalistic, and the proportion of westeners increases in Thailand, thereby, making the white faced western guy become less of and oddity, Thais will become more accustomed to seeing westeners out and about.

I am sure in time Thais will become more tollerent, sharing, inclusive, worldly, reasonable and fair and welcoming to westeners. Maybe to the point where white aliens are genuinly seen as part of the community and allowed to blend in and assimilate as equal partners and stake-holders and NOT as aliens in the loathed sense of the word.

Until then however, the blantant racism, intollerence, xenophobia and discrimination towards westeners will prevail.

I don't care so much for myself. I don't like it, but don't overly worry too much what Thais think or say about me. However, I dislike immensely the low-class, narrow-minded, attitude some Thais have towards my wife just because she is with me. Hey, and before the average half-witted TV member starts thinking "bar girl", my missus is light years from that.

One day, just one day, the average Thai just might grow up.

[Heng]

I'd say in most cases it's fairly obvious even in Thai-Thai relationships. Plenty of 'tells' and relatively few degrees of separation in society here. It's no different than how you might be more likely to be able to identify a sorority girl back home when a foreigner would only see 'girl in umbros, ball cap, and t-shirt.'

Educate me, Heng, please.

Is this it (them)?

Umbro have recently launched their new hi-technology SX Boot. Deco has been playing in the boots which are visually striking with different colours for each foot, reflecting the left (logical, assertive) and right (intuitive, creative and passionate) sides of the brains. The boot uses Michelin tyre manufacturing-related technology which improves control by up to 90%.^{[citation needed]}

I think I saw some Umbros there but no sorority girls.

[Thai at Heart]

At least it is a mature paper, unlike the tripe that was served up a few years from someone at Khon Kaen University claiming that Thai wives were giving up somtaam in favour of pizzas and putting up Christmas lights to the detriment of Loi Kratong.

Some of the stigma has been removed, but my missus is still extremely wary of being perceived in the wrong way.

I think an extremely interesting paper would be to understand characteristics that make for successful relationships. Some blokes marry bar girls and are extremely happy forever. Some blokes are 40 years older and than their spouse and yet both parties are happy forever. Some blokes marry the girl next door and she turns into a psycho jealous bunny boiler.

I could set up a marriage guidance council with the amount of friends I have who are constantly scratching their heads with "What have I done, what happened" even though they appear to be great dad's and husbands. Conversely, there are wives who appear perfectly tolerant of their husband sitting in the pub all day.

Proves there is nothing stranger than folk at least.

[sokal]

LOL fletch

lemme make some clarification

while I talk about perceptions/acceptance level changing, that does not quite apply to me

it is still taboo in my family, particularly for me, to marry a farang Mom wouldnt approve.

SBK - Im sure your experience applies to a majority of small town /villages Thailand even today. what I meant by my post was that, previously even in a big city like Bangkok, an educated Thai woman seen walking around with a well dressed farang guy will be subject to a lot of diapproving looks from strangers, and gossip and confrontation with the family by those they know.

these days such practice will not raise the same confrontation, but will probably still raise some inquisitive questioning by friends and relatives of the girl.

That goes against the idea that " money is everything in Thailand " that people always talk about.

[Maigo6]

Just wear your ThaiVisa polo shirt.

People will know that your relationship is real, you're obviously a wealthy professional and the missus is a Thai Chinese astrophysicist from the elite end of the society whom you met at the gates of Harvard University

No looks of disapproval, only wais and people falling over themselves to help you.

ThaiVisa shirt : Never leave home without it.

[samuibeachcomber]

interesting topic,i must have horse blinkers on,there i was thinking everyone loved me,walking around with my young lady, 30 years younger,holding hands etc.

I tend to agree with F1 fanatic,in Isaan you'd be thought of as a good catch,and in bangkok amongst hi so thais you'd be thought of as down market for the girl that married you,unless you were young and had a good career and a load of dosh,then you'd be forgiven.

[Meridian007]

LOL at Maigo!

Things may have gotten better here, but I think there is more acceptance of foreigners by Thai women of all classes, than Thai men. I've seen it in many of the interactions that I've had with Thais from all different backgrounds, women tend to be more accepting or supporting when they find out that my girlfriend is Thai. Men seem to have a preconceived notion of the status of the girl if she is dating a foreigner.

For example, I'm speaking with a well-to-do Thai man and I find out that he is a doctor at the same hospital where my girlfriend worked (also a doctor), so I ask him if he knows her. His first reaction is "Your girlfriend is a doctor?" as if that is patently impossible. Then, as I tell him more about her, he seems to only be able to accept it if he can categorize her in a pejorative way. "Oh yes, I think I know who you're talking about now, she's the dark one." My girlfriend is not really dark, (she's half Thai-Chinese, so while she isn't one of those girls with porcelain white skin, I definitely wouldn't categorize her as dark), but I think the categorization is related more to what "class" a person is, than their skin colour.

By categorizing her as a lower class than himself (although they have the same job specialization, and make the same amount of money, and she came from an academic family), this man was able to make it "okay" because his categorization put her into a group that were undesirable for him.

My girlfriend has related some similar difficulties for her. She has said that dating/marrying a foreigner limits her opportunities here as she will be judged by that fact in her professional life. As well, her parents are not happy about the situation, they've been afraid to meet me (my girlfriend and I have been together for over two years) because although they've seen pictures of me, they are afraid that I'm some old, fat pensioner trying to steal their upwardly mobile daughter away. All of this is in Bangkok, but I think that the "old boys club" still has the most sway here, and their opinions of mixed matchings are not favourable.

Thailand (even Bangkok) has a long way to go, but it is the same anywhere in the world that is either not cosmopolitan, or hasn't been for long. Bangkok is leading the way but it will take time.

[neverdie]

Just wear your ThaiVisa polo shirt.

People will know that your relationship is real, you're obviously a wealthy professional and the missus is a Thai Chinese astrophysicist from the elite end of the society whom you met at the gates of Harvard University

No looks of disapproval, only wais and people falling over themselves to help you.

ThaiVisa shirt : Never leave home without it.

Wonderful work Maigo6!

[YoungNRich12]

"Things may have gotten better here, but I think there is more acceptance of foreigners by Thai women of all classes, than Thai men. I've seen it in many of the interactions that I've had with Thais from all different backgrounds, women tend to be more accepting or supporting when they find out that my girlfriend is Thai. Men seem to have a preconceived notion of the status of the girl if she is dating a foreigner.

For example, I'm speaking with a well-to-do Thai man and I find out that he is a doctor at the same hospital where my girlfriend worked (also a doctor), so I ask him if he knows her. His first reaction is "Your girlfriend is a doctor?" as if that is patently impossible. Then, as I tell him more about her, he seems to only be able to accept it if he can categorize her in a pejorative way. "Oh yes, I think I know who you're talking about now, she's the dark one." My girlfriend is not really dark, (she's half Thai-Chinese, so while she isn't one of those girls with porcelain white skin, I definitely wouldn't categorize her as dark), but I think the categorization is related more to what "class" a person is, than their skin colour.

By categorizing her as a lower class than himself (although they have the same job specialization, and make the same amount of money, and she came from an academic family), this man was able to make it "okay" because his categorization put her into a group that were undesirable for him.

My girlfriend has related some similar difficulties for her. She has said that dating/marrying a foreigner limits her opportunities here as she will be judged by that fact in her professional life. As well, her parents are not happy about the situation, they've been afraid to meet me (my girlfriend and I have been together for over two years) because although they've seen pictures of me, they are afraid that I'm some old, fat pensioner trying to steal their upwardly mobile daughter away."

Since you are so good at mind reading, I think you might want to setup shop as a fortune teller. Even if you just serviced the farang community, think of the profits. We have so many foreigners here who only speak basic or intermediate Thai (I assume, like yourself, as these conversations would not have been carried out in English if you could have more clearly explained who your ex-girl friend was in Thai) yet lack your mind reading skills. Heck, you have came up with a detailed psychological analysis of two people with whom you have never even met before, let alone spoke too. Now, that my friend is skill. We've got farang on this forum who have been with the same girl for ten years and can't even tell you what she means when she says "Up to you" or if that is really her little sister or daughter and then we have got you, the missing link. The guy who makes things happen. Turns water into wine.

I wouldn't be surprised if in less than a decade you have your own television show "The Thai Whisperer" and at least five dozen half Chinese-Thai doctors in your cell phone.

[YoungNRich12]

the wealthy will be unhappy but prepared to change their minds once they get to know the partner and realise that their daughter/son will be loved and well cared for.

For me, as a wealthy individual, I will be completely disappointed if my daughter chooses to marry someone from the same culture with whom I can understand and communicate with. Ideally, my daughter will marry someone from one of those off the map tribal villages in the middle of the jungle of some island that they just discovered thirty to forty years ago and are still trying to convince to stop sacrificing children. I can't think of anything worse than her marrying someone who grew up in the town over. Its so, how do you say, boring and unoriginal the way most people choose to marry within their culture. Think of all the humerus cross culture experiences you miss out on, like "Someone tell Sushada's new husband that he is chewing on ginger and lemon grass and to only eat the water" or "Can someone please translate what my grand daughter just said to me?" and "That's great that you are moving 9,000 km away. I look forward to sight seeing in Spokane Idaho."

Edited November 12, 2009 by YoungNRich12

[Heng]

[Meridian007]

Since you are so good at mind reading, I think you might want to setup shop as a fortune teller. Even if you just serviced the farang community, think of the profits. We have so many foreigners here who only speak basic or intermediate Thai (I assume, like yourself, as these conversations would not have been carried out in English if you could have more clearly explained who your ex-girl friend was in Thai) yet lack your mind reading skills. Heck, you have came up with a detailed psychological analysis of two people with whom you have never even met before, let alone spoke too. Now, that my friend is skill. We've got farang on this forum who have been with the same girl for ten years and can't even tell you what she means when she says "Up to you" or if that is really her little sister or daughter and then we have got you, the missing link. The guy who makes things happen. Turns water into wine.

I wouldn't be surprised if in less than a decade you have your own television show "The Thai Whisperer" and at least five dozen half Chinese-Thai doctors in your cell phone.

I've evidently offended you in some way, but you haven't really elucidated how in your post.

Do you believe I'm making too many assumptions? Both spoken and body language give us cues everyday to meaning that may be evident, implied, or subconscious. I'm quite sure my conversation example, (which included some very obvious body language that I can't convey other than to say that a feeling of contempt or possibly even disgust was evident), was interpreted by me as it was intended by him, he didn't really hide his feelings, and the other Thai people present were visibly uncomfortable. Being intuitive is not magic, and I don't think it is impossible cross-culturally. That being said, understanding others is a delicate thing, and I fully admit to not understanding my girlfriend 100% of the time, but I think that is more gender-related than culture-related.

Do you disbelieve that there can be deep discussions between people from different cultures and languages? While my Thai ability is far from perfect, (I'm attempting to develop it to a level where I can passably argue politics in Thai, and I have many Thai friends who are helping me with this), I can have basic conversations in it. In the cases I used in my other post, the conversations were completely in English. There are many Thais who speak perfect, or almost perfect, English (my girlfriend included - it's actually making it difficult for me to progress in Thai as we only speak English to each other), and I think you are missing out if you haven't spoken to a Thai on deeper issues of religion, politics, and society.

So, I'm sorry to have ruffled your feathers, but can you be clearer as to what your problem is? Are you trolling for a fight?

[Heng]

Since you are so good at mind reading, I think you might want to setup shop as a fortune teller. Even if you just serviced the farang community, think of the profits. We have so many foreigners here who only speak basic or intermediate Thai (I assume, like yourself, as these conversations would not have been carried out in English if you could have more clearly explained who your ex-girl friend was in Thai) yet lack your mind reading skills. Heck, you have came up with a detailed psychological analysis of two people with whom you have never even met before, let alone spoke too. Now, that my friend is skill. We've got farang on this forum who have been with the same girl for ten years and can't even tell you what she means when she says "Up to you" or if that is really her little sister or daughter and then we have got you, the missing link. The guy who makes things happen. Turns water into wine.

I wouldn't be surprised if in less than a decade you have your own television show "The Thai Whisperer" and at least five dozen half Chinese-Thai doctors in your cell phone.

I've evidently offended you in some way, but you haven't really elucidated how in your post.

Actually he's just making fun of you.

[Sabum]

Just wear your ThaiVisa polo shirt.

People will know that your relationship is real, you're obviously a wealthy professional and the missus is a Thai Chinese astrophysicist from the elite end of the society whom you met at the gates of Harvard University

No looks of disapproval, only wais and people falling over themselves to help you.

ThaiVisa shirt : Never leave home without it.

I logged on for the first time in ages just to say this.

You have been using the same joke for years, over and over, does it not EVER get boring? Have you no life outside waiting for an opportunity to say the same thing yet again on these forums?

[Heng]

What can he do where there is an endless line of folks who continue to set up his repeated punchlines?

[Meridian007]

Ahh, but am I wrong? Maybe his sarcasm comes from not experiencing something similar?

If you're an Asian foreigner, I don't think you get this problem, the parents love it when their daughter brings home a successful Chinese/Korean/Japanese/Luk Kreung guy, but sometimes we Caucasians (and our Asian girlfriends) have a bit harder time of it!

[YoungNRich12]

Do you believe I'm making too many assumptions? Both spoken and body language give us cues everyday to meaning that may be evident, implied, or subconscious...

or imagined.

Its not a surprise that Thai women are more interested in Farang men than heterosexual Thai men. For reasons to obvious to state, there is less motivation for a hetersexual Thai male to seek relationships with farang males. Perhaps I should remind you that adult social circles differ from Kindergarten in that everyone does not have a name tag, eat lunch together and possess the same general demeanor, personalities and goals.