Brett Favre Endorses Trump in Green Bay

[TAWP]

When the CIA was moving accused terrorists around it used private passenger aircraft under innocuous company names. This was done to avoid "detection". When companies like Brinks or Securitas move assets on behalf of clients they do not publicize what they are doing. When government officials of Australia make special visits to Indonesia on private aircraft these fllghts are not made public. Etc. etc. etc.

You are thinking about the issue from the wrong direction. The reason CIA used private chartered flights is due to the fact that an official government aircraft would have been spotted and reported by both air controllers (word of mouth is strong) and plane-spotters (have friends back home that spends their free time taking pictures of airplanes and logging their paths, see airliners.net for some images) would be able to see it right away if is used any commercial airbase. The most easy way for a covert kidnapping of individuals, as was done from Sweden to Egypt in 2004 iirc (3 individuals), by US government operatives, is using a fully chartered flight that has no ties to the country or administration. It took many months before the full info about the flight was put together due to this, for example.

The information about the flights are not secret nor classified. It is not a national security violation to read or copy the info. Their sole purpose of using these flights is to avoid any flags go up amongst them who are watching the papers.

[geriatrickid]

You are assuming it is a real case which of course it may be. However, in times of conflict and other times too intelligence agencies of countries are not exactly averse to creating false situations to advantage their side. One recent example may well be the Israeli weapon find a on a ship that has been complelty dropped by the media and questioned heavily by those in the know on the conductinmg of searches. However, it achieved a very short term PR advantage for Israel. This kind of thing is also part of the game. At the center of this is one engineer. He may be guilty as charged, completly innocent or possibly guilty of niavely passing something on without any real intent to cause problems a bit like some of the rumour cases.

Jumping to conclusions based on what one side says is probably not a good idea.

I reckon you are the one jumping to conclusions and allowing your personal bias to influence your argument here. I am not assuming. I stated the issue is whether or not the Thai national was gathering information on behalf of his government. The phrase whether or not is used to indicate an undetermined issue.

Your use of the Nov. 4 seizure of a vessel transporting weapons and munitions cargo is a spurious tangent and has zero relevance. After the ship you reference was seized, it was immediately taken to dock in Israel where it was unloaded and the cargo displayed for all to see. The vessel docking was observed by foreign press agencies and foreign government officials. How do you think the Israelis found out about the ship? They were tipped off by sources in the Lebanese and Egyptian governments. Why do you think the Egyptians are not protesting and the Lebanese have remained diplomatically quiet? Dp you think they wanted to see these iranian arms going to Hizbollah via Syria, a nation that is no friend of either Egypt or Lebanon. The reason the ship seizure is not a PR event is because the Israelis do not wish to upset the Egyptian and Lebanese governments that made the seizure possible. That event hardly compares to the current issue between Cambodia and Bangkok.

If your intent was to suggest that the Cambodians are sowing false information and a spy scandal, then you may wish to reconsider. There are more effective ways to do that and to incite problems. Considering the ruthlessness of some Cambodian officials, a "bomb" or threat of a bomb on Cambodian soil would have been more effective. Or, the seizure of a "spy" gathering more sensitive info would have been a better scenario. I think what we have here is nothing overly sinister, but a person that may have either been coerced or been asked to provide information on the whereabouts of Mr. Thaksin's airplane so as to facilitate a Thai airforce intercept or perhaps a shootdown. Only certain Thai government officials and the Thai military leaders know the truth and they won't be talking anytime soon.

it is looking more and more like a comedy of errors. The Thai military can't even undertake effective covert operations in the South so I am not surprised this alleged attempt to gather info was bungled.

Another motive might be that someone wants to cancel the airtraffic control contract. Nothing like inappropriate behaviour used as a basis to cancel a contract.

[hammered]

You are assuming it is a real case which of course it may be. However, in times of conflict and other times too intelligence agencies of countries are not exactly averse to creating false situations to advantage their side. One recent example may well be the Israeli weapon find a on a ship that has been complelty dropped by the media and questioned heavily by those in the know on the conductinmg of searches. However, it achieved a very short term PR advantage for Israel. This kind of thing is also part of the game. At the center of this is one engineer. He may be guilty as charged, completly innocent or possibly guilty of niavely passing something on without any real intent to cause problems a bit like some of the rumour cases.

Jumping to conclusions based on what one side says is probably not a good idea.

I reckon you are the one jumping to conclusions and allowing your personal bias to influence your argument here. I am not assuming. I stated the issue is whether or not the Thai national was gathering information on behalf of his government. The phrase whether or not is used to indicate an undetermined issue.

Your use of the Nov. 4 seizure of a vessel transporting weapons and munitions cargo is a spurious tangent and has zero relevance. After the ship you reference was seized, it was immediately taken to dock in Israel where it was unloaded and the cargo displayed for all to see. The vessel docking was observed by foreign press agencies and foreign government officials. How do you think the Israelis found out about the ship? They were tipped off by sources in the Lebanese and Egyptian governments. Why do you think the Egyptians are not protesting and the Lebanese have remained diplomatically quiet? Dp you think they wanted to see these iranian arms going to Hizbollah via Syria, a nation that is no friend of either Egypt or Lebanon. The reason the ship seizure is not a PR event is because the Israelis do not wish to upset the Egyptian and Lebanese governments that made the seizure possible. That event hardly compares to the current issue between Cambodia and Bangkok.

If your intent was to suggest that the Cambodians are sowing false information and a spy scandal, then you may wish to reconsider. There are more effective ways to do that and to incite problems. Considering the ruthlessness of some Cambodian officials, a "bomb" or threat of a bomb on Cambodian soil would have been more effective. Or, the seizure of a "spy" gathering more sensitive info would have been a better scenario. I think what we have here is nothing overly sinister, but a person that may have either been coerced or been asked to provide information on the whereabouts of Mr. Thaksin's airplane so as to facilitate a Thai airforce intercept or perhaps a shootdown. Only certain Thai government officials and the Thai military leaders know the truth and they won't be talking anytime soon.

it is looking more and more like a comedy of errors. The Thai military can't even undertake effective covert operations in the South so I am not surprised this alleged attempt to gather info was bungled.

Another motive might be that someone wants to cancel the airtraffic control contract. Nothing like inappropriate behaviour used as a basis to cancel a contract.

I wont go into further detail of the Israeli seizure as it is off topic, but you may wish to read further on this issue. Im sure the Israeli government wouldnt want to upset the Lebanese government complete with its Hezbollah ministers;)

While I agree this is a small case I dont doubt that Cambodian military intelligence may also be inept at their jobs and stitching someone up to create a false scenario is just as likely. Nobody will ever know the truth imho. However, the guy arrested is likely to have a hard time whether guilty or not.

It also now seems that civilian flight plans would have been known by the Thai authorities without resorting to this tactic which makes the story even more odd.

[mca]

We decided to charge this Thai citizen and his subordinates of doing things which affected the public security of the country

Well at least the Cambodians are charging non-Cambodians. Here in LOS they charge their own people under the all encompassing "national security"

It's getting like a watered down version of North Korea.

Not even close, not even in the same ball park.

You'll have to expand on your answer a bit. Your reply is slightly lacking anything to reply to. Which part isn't even close?

[animatic]

This is clear that this poor child is a scapegoat victim.

Unfortunately you may well be right.

It also seems that air traffic controllers would have known the flight plan too. That raises the question of did Thaksin fly over Thailand and if he did why didnt the government do anything about considering they now say they want him back. I guess they may have been informed of the flight plan and aircraft but not the passenger manifesto. Then again it should have been easy enough to work out.

Correct, this is not national security unless it was a Cambodian military flight.

Poor sod is definitly a scapegoat and bargaining chip, nothing more for Cambodia's purposes.

A human being for all the rest of us.

[mca]

Correct, this is not national security unless it was a Cambodian military flight.

Poor sod is definitly a scapegoat and bargaining chip, nothing more for Cambodia's purposes.

A human being for all the rest of us.

For a second there I thought you were talking about Thaksin. My bad. I thought "animatic's changed his tune!"

[Scott]

The information about the flights are not secret nor classified. It is not a national security violation to read or copy the info. Their sole purpose of using these flights is to avoid any flags go up amongst them who are watching the papers.

National Security is what a country, a gov't or the military say is national security. Certainly anything that might be seen as a potential threat to a countries 'newest' employee might be considered as such.

Thailand certainly has a few National Security issues (including blocking web sites) that I have trouble understanding as National Security, but I can tell you this much, I am not going to mess around with them and find out the consequences.

[TAWP]

National Security is what a country, a gov't or the military say is national security. Certainly anything that might be seen as a potential threat to a countries 'newest' employee might be considered as such.

Thailand certainly has a few National Security issues (including blocking web sites) that I have trouble understanding as National Security, but I can tell you this much, I am not going to mess around with them and find out the consequences.

Cambodia has declared flight information regarding visitors to be government secrets and their status protected? I haven't heard anything about that. But then again, backward state as it is...my OP has to be considered in terms of normal states then.

[geriatrickid]

Flight information and data is indeed considered to fall under the realm of national security. I invite doubters to consult the relevant policy documents from various countries. For example the US and Canadian government agencies consider it as such. It is in the Phillipines overflight regulations section. However, here's a more recent example;

On October 13, 2009 Andrew Woffendin, an IT contractor was sentenced to 15 months in jail after he plead guilty to have stolen laptops, mobile phones and accessories from the National Air Traffic Services control center in Swanwick (UK). The theft of the IT equipment would have been treated as a minor theft offense , but what he was nailed on was the dissemination of information. The flight information including flight paths, codes and routes were described in court as posing a threat to national security if it was in possession of the wrong people.

The mirror reported that judge Peter Henry called Andrew Woffindin "a threat to national security" because he sold computers over the internet that contained secret data on military and commercial flights.

The point here is that we do not know what information was involved in the Cambodian event. In the example above, I don't think the intent of Mr. Woffendin was to steal data. Rather the the dissemination of the info was an indirect result of the theft. However, if an event where there was no intent to obtain info was deemed contrary to national security, I would expect then that an event where there is a demonstrable intent to get the info will be treated just as harshly.

However, everything still is subject to determining exactly what was done and if indeed the accused was gathering information.

Bear in mind too that while there may be no crime in gathering some information, it is what one does with that information that matters. If the method of info gathering violated the confidentiality and secrecy agreements that were signed by the contractor, or if the info could be used to violate Cambodian laws (conspiracy) then the accused may have a legal problem.

[animatic]

Correct, this is not national security unless it was a Cambodian military flight.

Poor sod is definitly a scapegoat and bargaining chip, nothing more for Cambodia's purposes.

A human being for all the rest of us.

For a second there I thought you were talking about Thaksin. My bad. I thought "animatic's changed his tune!"

Well Dr. T. isn't likely to change his tune, so I see little reason to suddenly cut him slack.

I don't hate the man, as I have said before. But I don't trust him, based on his own words,

and his own actions, nor do I believe he is stable under pressure, he's repeatedly shown that,

and thus not suitable at all for running a country.

Not much more can be said, poor judgment in the leadership is the route to national catastrophe.

Well look at Cambodia as an example. Not that there are not many more.

Edited November 14, 2009 by animatic

[rtb]

The information about the flights are not secret nor classified. It is not a national security violation to read or copy the info.

Flight information and data is indeed considered to fall under the realm of national security.

Who is right?

[geriatrickid]

The information about the flights are not secret nor classified. It is not a national security violation to read or copy the info.

Flight information and data is indeed considered to fall under the realm of national security.

Who is right?

Both.

It is how the info is gathered and how it is used. For example, if I access a patient file to find out the address because I wish to send the patient some info related to his or her case as part of my activity on behalf of the patient, it is acceptable. However, if I take the info and then sell it to the local tout, or a gossip columnist, I am in the wrong. Capiche?

[webfact]

DIPLOMATIC ROW

Military denies report about arrest of its spy

By THE NATION ON SUNDAY

Published on November 15, 2009

Slams slanderous accusation and demands more information

The Thai military yesterday refuted a report that an official from the Armed Forces' Security Centre was caught spying at the City Angkor Hotel in Siem Reap where ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra stayed during his visit to Cambodia last week.

Armed Forces spokesman Colonel Sithichai Markkunchorn said no one by the name of Manit, as claimed by Cambodia, worked under the centre.

He said the accusation had slandered the Thai Armed Forces and called on Cambodia to identify the last name of the person arrested.

He urged the public to use discretion and not believe any information without checking, as the country may fall victim to ill-intentioned groups.

Ties between the Thai and Cambodian militaries remained normal while people on both sides of the border continued their ways and earned a living from border trade as usual, he said.

Thepthai Senpong, the Democrat Party leader's personal spokesman, lashed out at Pheu Thai Party MP Jatuporn Promphan for protecting Cambodia and insulting the Thai government by accusing it of stealing information from Cambodia.

He blamed Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen for releasing such news to the media with the intent of cornering the Thai government.

"Hun Sen has done that because he wants to justify his action against the Thai government. It's a shame that Thais have helped Cambodia to defame their own country," he said.

Acting government spokesman Panitan Watanayagorn could not confirm that a second Thai citizen was detained in Cambodia, as reported by a Phnom Penh newspaper.

Panitan, during a telephone interview from Singapore, said he had received no reports that a security official attached to the Thai Armed Forces' Security Centre was arrested by Cambodian authorities.

The Khmer newspaper said an officer known only as "Manit" was apprehended at the City Angkor hotel in Siem Reap.

-- The Nation 2009/11/15

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[rtb]

The information about the flights are not secret nor classified. It is not a national security violation to read or copy the info.

Flight information and data is indeed considered to fall under the realm of national security.

Who is right?

Both.

It is how the info is gathered and how it is used. For example, if I access a patient file to find out the address because I wish to send the patient some info related to his or her case as part of my activity on behalf of the patient, it is acceptable. However, if I take the info and then sell it to the local tout, or a gossip columnist, I am in the wrong. Capiche?

Not really, because that doesn't jive with the news posted in the new thread:

that flight information on Thaksin's journey to Cambodia was not a secret, as the Aviation Department and Aeronautical Radio of Thailand had been asked to allow his chartered jet to fly over Thai airspace.

They already receive the information on flights so there was no need to "spy" to get it.

[Bagwan]

There was at one time, and maybe still is, at least one website where you can check on the progress of commercial flights. An enquirer was presented with an on screen map and the present whereabouts of the aircraft was clearly indicated. Since Lockerbie maybe this is no longer available. I think that the Lockerbie terrorists were only partially successful since a further 20 minutes flight by the 747 would have meant that collection of debris to aid the subsequent investigation would have been a mammoth task. The North Atlantic in winter is no picnic.

Furthermore I should be very surprised if Thai radars could not pickup traffic as far south as KL and some way out over the Andaman Sea. Aircraft flying into any of the London airports along the Amber One highway are picked up and tracked from Tours in France. Certainly commercial flights are ID'd by radar/radio and since aircraft have to follow defined routes, identifying a private flight would be child's play.

Given the above, arresting this unfortunate guy does not make any sense to me unless Cambodia are being deliberately provocative i.e this is a hissing up the wall competition. Since Thais provide ATC for Cambodia (Samart Corp are on contract) withdrawal of such staff would bring Cambodian air travel to a standstill. That might concentrate minds somewhat.

[hammered]

Cambodia have now found another "spy". Amazing how brilliant their counter intelligenc operatives are. Guess there will be a few more to come especially as it seems to be leaking out that Thailand had no reason to "spy" on flight paths they already knew about.

I wonder if any of the MPs on the all night drinking binge found time to visit the Thai national held by the Hun Sen regime.

[Tony121]

What's the betting that, after lots of play-acting, Taksin steps in and negotiates the man's release? Could well be a set up.

looks like your spot on there Pauln

[webfact]

STALEMATE

Cambodia warned on handling of 'spy'

By The Nation

Published on November 17, 2009

Formal explanation of arrest sought; PM threatens cutback on financial aid

The Cabinet will today discuss ways to put the squeeze on Cambodia should the country not comply with international norms in its treatment of a Thai national arrested for allegedly spying for the Thai Embassy in Phnom Penh.

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva yesterday threatened to take stronger action against Cambodia, including more cutbacks in financial assistance, should the country refuse to abide by the accepted standards.

Abhisit said the government would discuss possible action at today's Cabinet meeting when the entire Thai-Cambodian relations would come under review. He said he had been informed about a Thai national being arrested for "spying" in Cambodia.

The prime minister has told the Foreign Ministry to seek a formal explanation as to why Siwarak Chothipong, 31, a Thai national working for the Cambodia Air Traffic Service (CATS), had been arrested.

A Thai Embassy staff member was permitted to visit Siwarak yesterday afternoon, but Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya said he had yet to receive a report of the outcome of the meeting.

"Today, we agreed to allow [the diplomat] to visit the man at 2pm in the prison where he is being temporarily detained," Cambodian foreign ministry spokesman Koy Kuong said.

Siwarak's family is concerned about his detention, saying he has a heart condition and is on medication.

Thai-Cambodian relations went into a tailspin after Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen appointed fugitive Thaksin Shinawatra as his economic adviser and gave him red-carpet treatment during a four-day visit last week.

Siwarak was accused of allegedly trying to steal information about Thaksin's flight schedule and giving it to the Thai Embassy in Phnom Penh.

Chavanond Intarakomalyasut, secretary to foreign minister, said the charges against Siwarak were politically motivated and the government "will not permit any of its citizens to be treated this way".

"We have requested the Cambodian government supply us with a formal explanation as to why Siwarak Chothipong was arrested," he said.

Bangkok was outraged by Thaksin's appointment and ties between the two governments went down to one of their lowest ebbs after Cambodia refused to extradite him.

Thailand and Cambodia recalled their respective ambassadors and Thaksin accused the Democrat-ruled government of "false patriotism" during an economic lecture last Thursday in Phnom Penh.

-- The Nation 2009/11/17

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[webfact]

CAMBODIA'S SPY CHARGE

Please save my boy

By Jednipat Chansopeekul

The Nation

Published on November 17, 2009

Please save my boy

Mum worried about health of son who has serious heart condition and is detained by Cambodia which alleges he is a spy

Siwarak Chutipong is either a perfect spy or a perfect victim of a dysfunctional diplomacy. A good son who called his mother every week while on a job abroad and a good pal who is well loved by friends, he is - by appearance at least - someone you would least suspect of trying to steal national security information of utmost importance.

His mother, Simarak, does not believe the Cambodians, who have put him in jail for alleged spying, knew something she did not. The woman is strongly convinced her son is a victim in the Thai-Cambodian showdown over Thaksin Shinawatra.

In an interview yesterday with The Nation, Simarak, a teacher at Nakhon Ratchasima Technical College, pleaded with Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva to help her son, who was still in Cambodian detention yesterday after being charged with stealing Thaksin's flight schedule.

Contradicting accounts

Adding to her growing concern, Bangkok and Cambodia yesterday gave contradicting accounts over whether her son had been allowed a first visit by a Thai official.

Siwarak, an engineer at Samart subsidiary Cambodia Air Traffic Services (CATS), was arrested last week, and those wanting to contact him from the Thai side have been given no access to the man. Although Cambodia claimed a visit was allowed yesterday afternoon, Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya denied knowledge of such permission. This has aggravated Simarak's anxiety, because her son has heart problems and needs daily medication.

"We planned to see a doctor during his next vacation to discuss a heart operation, which is the only way to cure his problem," she said.

"All I want is for the prime |minister to help my son. I can't and won't do anything at the moment - until I'm certain there's no progress, that is."

Cambodia said a Thai Embassy representative met Siwarak in prison yesterday. But Koy Kuong, a Cambodian Foreign Ministry spokesman, provided no other details except that the visit took place at 2pm, while in Bangkok Foreign Minister Kasit told reporters Thai officials had still been unable to see the suspect.

"Since he was arrested, Thai Embassy officials have kept contacting Cambodian officials to |seek permission to visit him, but it has not been granted yet," Kasit said.

"The visit is an international standard for whoever has been arrested. So far, there is no official charge either. The Thai Foreign Ministry has sent a letter asking, and there has been no reply from Cambodia."

Siwarak's plight will feature during today's Thai Cabinet meeting, among other issues related to the bilateral conflict. Thailand has stood firm on its denial of any attempt to steal classified information and insisted the charges against Siwarak are politically motivated.

Simarak described Siwarak as a "very good son who has never done anything to upset the family".

"He's gentle, likeable and has a lot of friends," she said. "We talk on the mobile phone once or twice a week. He always tells me everything, and I've never heard him discuss or debate politics."

Siwarak, the oldest of Simarak's two children graduated from |the Suranaree University |of Technology in Nakhon Ratchasima and started working for Samart in Thailand after graduation. Almost 10 years ago, he was sent to work at CATS, which remained his employer on the day he was arrested.

-- The Nation 2009/11/17

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[animatic]

What's the betting that, after lots of play-acting, Taksin steps in and negotiates the man's release? Could well be a set up.

looks like your spot on there Pauln

Bad Cop, Good Cop, Savior of the nation's downtrodden,

only HE can straighten out international messes

because of sheer force of personality, no one else is able enough

etc. etc. yada yada yada

Propaganda PR 101; blame someone else for the problem you caused,

then 'appear' to fix if in a public way and take full credit loudly and often.

Edited November 17, 2009 by animatic

[asia_pilot]

..........Siwarak's family is concerned about his detention, saying he has a heart condition and is on medication.

Thai-Cambodian relations went into a tailspin after Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen appointed fugitive Thaksin Shinawatra as his economic adviser and gave him red-carpet treatment during a four-day visit last week.

..........

-- The Nation 2009/11/17

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

He is/was an airtraffic controller? A Controller with a heart condition ?

[twschw]

^If you had read the OP you would know that the accused was an engineer.

[asia_pilot]

^If you had read the OP you would know that the accused was an engineer.

I am very sorry, why just dont ignore my post ?

[geriatrickid]

As this Cambodia - Thailand spy conflict was hitting the news, a similar situation erupted between Peru and Chile, An air force officer was accused of spying for Chile. Many Peruvians are upset and this has sparked outrage in Peru, which is why Mr. Garcia left the APEC summit. Mr. Garcia is seeking to calm the general population and to get an explanation from Chile.

It is interesting to contrast the difference in the handling of the two events. While Mr. Garcia was seeking answers and the Chileans politely denying all knowledge, the Thai PM in the midst of crisis set off for APEC photo ops allowing the spying allegations to get out of hand. What was he thinking?

The Cambodian leader is playing the Thais like a well worn violin. It's not so much the allegations of spying as how they are being managed by Thailand that should make Thais cringe, assuming of course that they were not clueless to the world outside their borders. The Thai reaction is one of a child that has its hand caught in the cookie jar. When the Russians, Chinese, Americans etc. have one of their spys nabbed they go into crisis management mode, seeking to calm things down, not lurching about in crisis creation mode as the Thais have done. The events are controlling the Thai government as opposed to the Thai government managing events. If this is how Thailand manages a foreign crisis, I hope it gives pause to those that long for an internal civil conflict.

[way2muchcoffee]

As this Cambodia - Thailand spy conflict was hitting the news, a similar situation erupted between Peru and Chile, An air force officer was accused of spying for Chile. Many Peruvians are upset and this has sparked outrage in Peru, which is why Mr. Garcia left the APEC summit. Mr. Garcia is seeking to calm the general population and to get an explanation from Chile.

It is interesting to contrast the difference in the handling of the two events. While Mr. Garcia was seeking answers and the Chileans politely denying all knowledge, the Thai PM in the midst of crisis set off for APEC photo ops allowing the spying allegations to get out of hand. What was he thinking?

Similar? Wow. I didn't realize that Chile has a fugitive ex-PM fomenting rebellion at every turn, who became an economic advisor for Peru, and that the Peruvian leader rejected an extradition, repeatedly insulted the Chileans, and, just to further irk them, decided to cook up espionage charges against an air force officer. What a coincidence!

Edited November 17, 2009 by way2muchcoffee

[twschw]

..........Siwarak's family is concerned about his detention, saying he has a heart condition and is on medication.

Thai-Cambodian relations went into a tailspin after Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen appointed fugitive Thaksin Shinawatra as his economic adviser and gave him red-carpet treatment during a four-day visit last week.

..........

-- The Nation 2009/11/17

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

He is/was an airtraffic controller? A Controller with a heart condition ?

Because you asked a question and I anwered it. Why didn't you just ignore my post

[animatic]

I would say Hun Sen is actually being rather a blunt, ham fisted instrument in this debacle.

He is playing outside of accepted international diplomatic norms, and on purpose.

So considering this is outside norms, Thailand appears to be officially handling it in a low key manner.

When your nationals are being actively threatened, stating preparedness to evacuate them is boiler plate.

Silence from Thailand would also ratchet up Hun Sen's moves too, maybe even worse for his being ignored.

I can really see Ankor Wat being of NO strategic military importance for spying,

so clearly Cambodia has taken essentially another hostage in this idiocy.

Hun Sen is acting more like Mohamar Ghadafii in the 80's than a national leader in the 21st century.

[TAWP]

The mirror reported that judge Peter Henry called Andrew Woffindin "a threat to national security" because he sold computers over the internet that contained secret data on military and commercial flights.

Military flights could go under national security, sure. But normal commercial aviation, no. And every commercial flight is already basically known by anyone who wants to as there are numerous apps with this info. Even some flightsims contain replicated flight-paths. The non-repeated flights are not more protected just because they are private jets.

But let me ask one of the flight spotter friends and get back to you.

[geriatrickid]

Tawp, my point is that it is what one does with the information. If it is used against what are deemed to be national interests, then the actions can most certainly be seen to be as doing harm to the national interest. Compounding this situation is whether or not there was an underlying breach of contractual confidentiality agreements. In plain language, if the engneer was not allowed to use the info for purposes other than cambodian air traffic control, and instead passed it onto a foreign government as is alleged, then there is indeed a problem.

Animatic, whatever the boss of Cambodia is, the way to deal with someone like him is to remain calm. Firm but calm. I don't think the current response from the Thai government has been or will be effective. The example I gave of Peru vs Chile was that Mr. Garcia was confronted with what seems to be a rather nasty case of military espionage. His response so far was to approach the issue in an orderly manner, while trying to contain public outrage. What he has done is to try and take control of events. I dislike Mr. Garcia and his politics, but I have to give him credit for his response so far. My point was that Mr. Abhisit is all over the place. He needs to focus. It's as if the Cambodians can predict his reactions and are able to get Mr. Abhisit to react in ways that are contrary to Thailand's best interests. Did you see how the Cambodian leader avoided the APEC meetings? Mr. Abhisit was basically lost in the stampede of new financial trade agreements. Vietnam was making nice with Singapore, the USA & Canada cut an enhanced deal with Singapore and meanwhile it seemed that Mr. Abhisit was left on the sidelines, ignored as the lame duck that can't manage anything. Talk to your sources that were at the events and ask. The spy situation is perceived as another in a long line of embarrassments for Thailand. Mr. Abhisit needs to take charge and start calming tensions. He can talk tough when he is in charge and right now, the disarray shows Mr. Abhisit to be weak and serves to further undermine his position. He needs some new advisers, preferably ones that aren't allied with other factions.

[webfact]

CHARGE OF SPYING

Cambodia permits envoy to meet Thai engineer

Foreign Minister's secretary Chawanont Indhakomarnsut said Thai embassy's Charge d'affairs Chalotorn Paowiboon is already informed of the permission and is waiting at a prison where Siwarak Chutipong is detaining.

Cambodia on Tuesday allows Thai envoy to meet Thai engineer who was arrested for allegedly spying flight information of ex-Thai Thaksin Shinawatra and Cambodia's PM Hun Sen.

Chawanont said that it is still unclear what charges Siwarak is facing.

Siwarak was arrested last week in Phnom Penh for allegedly spying the flight information and he has not been seen since then.

-- The Nation 2009/11/17

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]