Visa Refused

[Vulture]

My wifes UK Visa was refused yesterday ECO Stephen Clarke and of course I am livid for the reasons given.

I posted on here in January and received a response of knowledge from the usual suspects as is now the norm on this board for which I was very grateful but to set the story I will just recap.

I had met a Thai lady in the on a six month Visit Visa who was in the UK looking at the operations a vehicle part import company. We met in a bar (uk bar to reiterate and no I was not working there) early into her visa and subsequently formed a relationship. We visited Bangkok in December and she returned with me to the UK that month. We gave notice to marry to the registrar in January and sent a settlement application by post to the embassy. Shortly after a stern warning came from the embassy that we were not allowed to marry in the UK. After advice on this forum to confirm what I thought I knew I wrote back to ECO Annie Davies telling her that her information was not correct and that we were allowed to marry giving the reason that we gave notice to the registrar in January. I also asked in the same email to confirm that our marriage will not have a detrimental effect on either a current or future application to which I recieved NO REPLY.

OK, on to the refusal letter which contains three paragraphs.

1. "I note that you returned to the UK on 10th December on the same six month visit visa, and then got married on the 14th February 2005. Under the terms of the standard visit visa, you are not permitted to get married in the UK and you are unable to satisfactorily explain why you went ahead with the wedding despite being informed by the visa section in Bangkok that this was not permitted and that this action could jeopardise your chance of obtaining further entry clearance in the future. I am satisfied that you failed to observe the conditions attached to a previous grant of leave to enter"

Would you believe my wife showed the incompetent ECO the website page from immigration underlined with the relevant paragraph relating to the February rule change to which he did look at for 1 second and asked "did you have clearance from the home office"

The letter further states that he does not believe that she entered the UK for the business puposes stated bacause rather than stay for a short period she initially stayed for two months (because I asked her to stay) and did not produce any evidence of business transacted (during the interview she clearly stated that these documents were not with her but she could bring some). "I am satisfied that you obtained a previous leave to enter and remain in the UK by deception and I am not prepared to excercise discretion in your favour."

Further.... "you state that you met your husband at the end of your first week in the UK and he persuaded you to stay for another 2 months. I do not find it credible that you formed a relationship so rapidly and on that basis stayed an extra two months in the Uk particularly when you told us on September 7th that you had various commitments in Thailand. This further undermines the credibility of your application." Well he obviously cannot count either given that we both flew to Thailand on March 5th at the end of her 6 month visa. I had a susbquent return to UK on the 25th and then returned to my wife in Thailand on the 5th April.

I find it indefensible that he was not interested in waiting for further documents.

He asked very little about me and nothing about sufficient money or accommodation.

I think it is clear that his mind was made up prior to interview.

Over to you forum.

[gburns57au]

My wifes UK Visa was refused yesterday ECO Stephen Clarke and of course I am livid for the reasons given.

I posted on here in January and received a response of knowledge  from the usual suspects as is now the norm on this board for which I was very grateful but to set the story I will just recap.

I had met a Thai lady in the on a six month Visit Visa who was in the UK looking at the operations a vehicle part import company. We met in a bar (uk bar to reiterate and no I was not working there) early into her visa and subsequently formed a relationship.  We visited Bangkok in December and she returned with me to the UK that month.  We gave notice to marry to the registrar in January and sent a settlement application by post to the embassy.  Shortly after a stern warning came from the embassy that we were not allowed to marry in the UK. After advice on this forum to confirm what I thought I knew I wrote back to ECO Annie Davies telling her that her information was not correct and that we were allowed to marry giving the reason that we gave notice to the registrar in January. I also asked in the same email to confirm that our marriage will not have a detrimental effect on either a current or future application to which I recieved NO REPLY.

OK, on to the refusal letter which contains three paragraphs.

1. "I note that you returned to the UK on 10th December on the same six month visit visa, and then got married on the 14th February 2005. Under the terms of the standard visit visa, you are not permitted to get married in the UK and you are unable to satisfactorily explain why you went ahead with the wedding despite being informed by the visa section in Bangkok that this was not permitted and that this action could jeopardise your chance of obtaining further entry clearance in the future. I am satisfied that you failed to observe the conditions attached to a previous grant of leave to enter"

Would you believe my wife showed the incompetent ECO the website page from immigration underlined with the relevant paragraph relating to the February rule change to which he did look at for 1 second and asked "did you have clearance from the home office"

The letter further states that he does not believe that she entered the UK for the business puposes stated bacause rather than stay for a short period she initially stayed for two months (because I asked her to stay) and did not produce any evidence of business transacted (during the interview she clearly stated that these documents were not with her but she could bring some). "I am satisfied that you obtained a previous leave to enter and remain in the UK by deception and I am not prepared to excercise discretion in your favour."

Further.... "you state that you met your husband at the end of your first week in the UK and he persuaded you to stay for another 2 months. I do not find it credible that you formed a relationship so rapidly and on that basis stayed an extra two months in the Uk particularly when you told us on September 7th that you had various commitments in Thailand. This further undermines the credibility of your application."  Well he obviously cannot count either given that we both flew to Thailand on March 5th at the end of her 6 month visa. I had a susbquent return to UK on the 25th and then returned to my wife in Thailand on the 5th April.

I find it indefensible that he was not interested in waiting for further documents.

He asked very little about me and nothing about sufficient money or accommodation.

I think it is clear that his mind was made up prior to interview.

Over to you forum.

You may not want to hear this but.....

You married her against their advice after knowing her less than six months...What did you expect ?

These people are looking for anything that is suspect and you provided it for them....

I am sorry to hear of your plight but you tried to buck the system and it bucked back.

I do hope your future ventures work out

[the scouser]

Hi Vulture,

I think a correctly worded letter for the attention of the head of the visa section has a good chance of getting this decision overturned before it goes to appeal. However, it is imperative that you obtain a copy of the interview notes in order to establish precisiely what was said.

The refusal notice:-

Para 1. - Evidently incorrect and with no foundation in law.

Para 2. - From what you say, she can provide proof that she did, in fact, conduct the business.

Para 3. - Is neither here nor there.

It is apparent that they're hanging their hat on the fact that you and your wife were not entitled to marry. Para 2 and 3 are just add-ons. Basically, if they let this one go to appeal then they are going to look complete idiots having refused an application on a groundless basis and not even the visa officers at the Bangkok embassy want to do that.

Are you still in Thailand? If so, go to the embassy tomorrow and ask for the interview notes. If not, then go see an immigration brief. If you want help drafting a letter I am willing to assist. If this is the case, then PM me.

Cheers,

Scouse.

[The_Moog]

So sorry to hear this.

Yes, sadly their interpretation is entirely in line with established modus operandi and guidelines of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.

Marrying in this way is prejudicial.

Whatever you do, be cool, take it steady.

Big deep breath.

If you have a bona fide relationship, ultimately you will prevail.

This is no time for firing off angry missives.

Pause.

[Rinrada]

 

We gave notice to marry to the registrar in January and sent a settlement application by post to the embassy. 

Over to you forum.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

MARRYING IN THE UK - FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

From 1 February 2005, if you are subject to immigration control and you want to marry in the United Kingdom (UK) you will need to follow new procedures.

You must either:

hold a fiancé(e) or visitor - marriage entry clearance (visa), or

hold a Home Office certificate of approval*, or

be settled in the UK (e.g. indefinite leave to remain)

You must also give notice to marry to a registrar at one of a number of designated register offices throughout the UK. Below is a brief summary of the new rules. This page will explain how they apply to you and what you must do.

These rules do not apply to anyone who has already given notice to marry to a registrar before 1 February 2005.

http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pa...d=1106654124706

However agree that you should take a deep breath and follow Scouses advice..

[the scouser]

Sorry, the Moog, but the FCO visa section staff are bound by the immigration rules which are determined by the Home Office and this decision flies in the face of the Home Office's instructions. It is a fact of law that the new rules apply from 1/2/05 and that any foreign national who gave notice of marriage before this date is uneffected.

Scouse.

[The_Moog]

Sorry, the Moog, but the FCO visa section staff are bound by the immigration rules which are determined by the Home Office and this decision flies in the face of the Home Office's instructions. It is a fact of law that the new rules apply from 1/2/05 and that any foreign national who gave notice of marriage before this date is uneffected.

Interesting ! Lets see.

Fly off the handle and they'll find a way to say 'no' again. (I'd hire a Lawyer).

to wit....

1)

We gave notice to marry to the registrar in January

2)

"These rules do not apply to anyone who has already given notice to marry to a registrar before 1 February 2005".

for instance.....

Edited April 8, 2005 by The_Moog

[the scouser]

The Moog,

Writing a letter pointing out the flaws in the visa officer's decision is hardly flying off the handle. It may have escaped your attention but visa officers are bound by the immigration laws in their decision-making and, as such, can't just "find a way to say no again." Ultimately, one way or another, they can be held to account. If you feel confident enough, write the letter yourself, if not hire a lawyer, but make sure that letter is written.

You state that marrying in this way is prejudicial. Can you please explain how, with reference to the relevant law? I await your response.

Scouse.

[The_Moog]

I await your response.

Its about the dates -

Are they subject to the february rules? They applied in January to Registrar, but the change of rule didn't apply till February.

Or is that in their favour - i'm confused a little actually by the circs.

The FCO counselled against marrying - they went ahead. Their file is filling with papers. Whatever, challenge them, point out that they are incompetant and your grasp of the Law exceeds theirs. Perhaps all this is true. Still, its a red rag to a Bull.

Bureaucrats like to find reasons to be objectionable...its like 'Yes Minister'.

Edited April 8, 2005 by The_Moog

[the scouser]

The dates are in Vulture's favour. The new rules apply to those who have given notice to marry since 1 Feb. Vulture gave notice in January when anyone was free to get married without the consent of the Home Office.

Scouse.

[The_Moog]

The dates are in Vulture's favour.

Fine then go for it, good fortune and Godspeed

[Vulture]

Thank you all for your input at this stage

Scouse I am still in Bangkok briefly but I am supposed to be flying Monday evening. I will PM you later when I have less alcohol in my veins from a good night at Shelter in the capital.

We will be attending Camp Wireless on Monday to insist on some interview notes.

They, I think will be typed not written according to my wife as he was more interested in his PC than listening and he oddly enough did not type in the questions.

I did fire off a very brief and subtle mail to the ECM early afternoon Friday but the automated response came back....out of office.. back Monday..........ah the joys of flexitime and tennis courts within the confines of Wireless Road. New balls please.

[bkk_mike]

Worst happens, it's a settlement visa and is entitled to an appeal, which given you're married, it's not an arranged marriage, and you knew each other for a reasonable period before the wedding, is extremely unlikely to fail.

If you're in Bangkok, I would definitely follow scouser's advice, remembering not to fly off at the handle.

If in the UK, time to get an immigration lawyer involved. (You could do it yourself, but a decent lawyer will be far more used to the banging a head against a brick wall feeling that you can get when dealing with any government department).

[Ajarn]

Since the guy basically accused your wife of fraud in getting her previous visa (the 'business' trip) as another reason for refusing this visa, would that still not make moot any other reason for refusal, even if the other reason was wrong?

[Rinrada]

Couple of points that I would think to be in his favour:

G.F been to the UK on 2 previous visits on her own in her maiden name and with "correct" Visa (whatever they were -assume -business.)- Responsible

Arranged to get married at a British Register Office in January and gave notice to the said Register before the new cut off "deadline" of that magic day 1st Feb.-Within Law.

Must assume that he/they would also have it recorded in accordance with English law with the stipulated "Banns"posted in his local registry Office for all the world to see (and object if neccessary)-Again within law..

Then must assume that they were married by a bona fide Registery Office Official dully appointed in accord with Eng law...etc to do the job and have the marrage registered in the BOOK.......etc. .............So whatever you say legally Married..in the UK.....EU.....

Then back to Bangers to see the Servants of our Government (and us)to present his credentials and request the appropriate Right of Passage for his Spouse.-Do thing properly....of course.

I did the same thing and the only eyebrows raised were when one of OUR civil servants at OUR British Embassy requested a shufty at our Marrage Certificate...

Think they expected some scribbled endorsement from the head banger at Upper Udon Chiangy or therabouts ...however

Enfield Registry Office,North London...etc...Nae Bother....

Good luck to him..

[gburns57au]

Quote"and you knew each other for a reasonable period before the wedding"unquote

He met her in September.....they married on the 14th of Febuary....not even 6 months. How is that a reasonable period ???

Lets see what else has made them suspect all is not kosher......

She was on a business trip....he convinced her to stay 2 months longer than her business required. The OP stated that she was on a 6 month visit visa ???. Take into account that she left and re-entered the UK under the same visa before they both went back at the end of the visa. it is unlikely that they would view the second entry as a genuine business trip.

Even after being advised that getting married at that time would be detrimental to them, they still went ahead and did it.....they may just as well have walked in the office and slapped them all around the face.

Irrespective of any law changes, they did not present as the genuine article to Immigration and it is easy to see why Immigration took that view.

Perhaps if they had have been a bit patient and complied with the department, taken the time to prove an ongoing and stable relationship, they would not have this problem.

Edited April 11, 2005 by gburns57au

[gburns57au]

Couple of points that I would think to be in his favour:

G.F been to the UK on 2 previous visits on her own in her maiden name and with "correct" Visa (whatever they were -assume -business.)- Responsible

Perhaps if the visits were some time apart and without him.....the two visits were on the same visa and only about 3-4 months apart with only a couple of weeks between the 2 trips....Sept-December...January- March

Arranged to get married at a British Register Office in January and gave notice to the said Register before the new cut off "deadline" of that magic day 1st Feb.-Within Law.

Must assume that he/they would also have it recorded  in accordance with English law with the stipulated "Banns"posted in his local registry Office for all the world to see (and object if neccessary)-Again within law..

Then must assume that they were married by a bona fide Registery Office Official dully appointed in accord with Eng law...etc to do the job and have the marrage registered in the BOOK.......etc. .............So whatever you say legally Married..in the UK.....EU.....

After being told that is was not permitted by the Thai Immigration

Then back to Bangers to see the Servants of our Government (and us)to present his credentials and request the appropriate Right of Passage for his Spouse.-Do thing properly....of course.

I did the same thing and the only eyebrows raised were when one of OUR civil servants at OUR British Embassy requested a shufty at  our Marrage Certificate...

How long had you known your girl...more than 5 months I would suspect

Think they expected some scribbled endorsement from the head banger at Upper Udon Chiangy or therabouts ...however

Enfield Registry Office,North London...etc...Nae Bother....

Good luck to him..

[Dragonman]

Had known my wife less than 5 months when we married and obtained settlement visa. All the information I obtained stated that it was up to you if you married in UK. Do not see why it is embassy's business to tell anyone not to marry.Under Human Rights legislature I even feel new rules debateable in Court.

I am well aware of the problem of relatively junior civil servants being upset at being not listened to,being Government Legal Advisor in my former life . But as Scouse says they must follow immigration laws.

[gburns57au]

To highlight a couple of points from the OP....the parts in red.

My wifes UK Visa was refused yesterday ECO Stephen Clarke and of course I am livid for the reasons given.

I posted on here in January and received a response of knowledge  from the usual suspects as is now the norm on this board for which I was very grateful but to set the story I will just recap.

I had met a Thai lady in the on a six month Visit Visa who was in the UK looking at the operations a vehicle part import company. We met in a bar (uk bar to reiterate and no I was not working there) early into her visa and subsequently formed a relationship.  We visited Bangkok in December and she returned with me to the UK that month.  We gave notice to marry to the registrar in January and sent a settlement application by post to the embassy.  Shortly after a stern warning came from the embassy that we were not allowed to marry in the UK. After advice on this forum to confirm what I thought I knew I wrote back to ECO Annie Davies telling her that her information was not correct and that we were allowed to marry giving the reason that we gave notice to the registrar in January. I also asked in the same email to confirm that our marriage will not have a detrimental effect on either a current or future application to which I recieved NO REPLY.

OK, on to the refusal letter which contains three paragraphs.

1. "I note that you returned to the UK on 10th December on the same six month visit visa and then got married on the 14th February 2005, Under the terms of the standard visit visa, you are not permitted to get married in the UK and you are unable to satisfactorily explain why you went ahead with the wedding despite being informed by the visa section in Bangkok that this was not permitted and that this action could jeopardise your chance of obtaining further entry clearance in the future. I am satisfied that you failed to observe the conditions attached to a previous grant of leave to enter"

Would you believe my wife showed the incompetent ECO the website page from immigration underlined with the relevant paragraph relating to the February rule change to which he did look at for 1 second and asked "did you have clearance from the home office"

The letter further states that he does not believe that she entered the UK for the business puposes stated bacause rather than stay for a short period she initially stayed for two months (because I asked her to stay) and did not produce any evidence of business transacted (during the interview she clearly stated that these documents were not with her but she could bring some). "I am satisfied that you obtained a previous leave to enter and remain in the UK by deception and I am not prepared to excercise discretion in your favour."

Further.... "you state that you met your husband at the end of your first week in the UK and he persuaded you to stay for another 2 months. I do not find it credible that you formed a relationship so rapidly and on that basis stayed an extra two months in the Uk particularly when you told us on September 7th that you had various commitments in Thailand. This further undermines the credibility of your application."  Well he obviously cannot count either given that we both flew to Thailand on March 5th at the end of her 6 month visa. I had a susbquent return to UK on the 25th and then returned to my wife in Thailand on the 5th April.

I find it indefensible that he was not interested in waiting for further documents.

He asked very little about me and nothing about sufficient money or accommodation.

I think it is clear that his mind was made up prior to interview.

Over to you forum.

In order from top to bottom

She was on a visitors visa therefore she was not allowed to get married as it breaches her visa conditions.

Again she was on a visitors visa, is she allowed to do business in the UK on a visitors visa ? By saying she was conducting business on a visitors visa may well lead them to believe that a deception occurred

They obviously had doubts about the relationship being genuine.

Three strikes and your out

Edited April 11, 2005 by gburns57au

[Rinrada]

These rules do not apply to anyone who has already given notice to marry to a registrar before 1 February 2005.(even if they are on a visitors Visa...or a toffee apple Visa or any other type of VISA)...thats the crunch.

Things all changed on my Birthday....

[gburns57au]

These rules do not apply to anyone who has already given notice to marry to a registrar before 1 February 2005.(even if they are on a visitors Visa...or a toffee apple Visa or any other type of VISA)...thats the crunch.

Things all changed on my Birthday....

Suggest everyone go to this site and have a good long and detailed read....

www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk

[the scouser]

Good idea Burnsie. Suggest you take a bit of your own advice and read thisIND link which proves that the new rules don't apply to those who gave notice before 1 Feb 2005.

Scouse.

[GU22]

Vulture,

Pride comes before a fall!

Regardless of the rule changes and date of same, you asked the embassy if you could marry on her original visa, they said no, but you did it anyway!

Prior to the change, someone in the UK on a visit visa was allowed to marry in the UK. If this was not the case then the registrar, or whoever, would not have married you. But getting married in the UK does not mean that you are automatically qualified for a settlement visa!

You asked the embassy's advice, you ignored that advice and now are in difficulties. It's not the people at the embassy that are incompetent, it is you!

[the scouser]

You asked the embassy's advice, you ignored that advice and now are in difficulties. It's not the people at the embassy that are incompetent, it is you!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What a load of hogwash! The advice given by the embassy was well ignored as it was plainly and simply wrong in law. An ECO is as equally bound by the immigration rules as the applicant, and in this instance the decision to refuse the application, principally on the basis of a incorrect interpretation of the law, is ultra vires. An ECO can't refuse an application (and get away with it) solely on the basis that he doesn't like the fact that someone didn't heed his malinformed advice.

Scouse.

[gburns57au]

Good idea Burnsie. Suggest you take a bit of your own advice and read thisIND link which proves that the new rules don't apply to those who gave notice before 1 Feb 2005.

Scouse.

Edited April 13, 2005 by gburns57au

[Rinrada]

Question to the Powers that be.....

I have already made arrangements to get married in the UK after 1 February and already have a visit visa.

What should I do?

Answer:

If a UK registrar has already taken notice of your marriage. or will do so before 1 February, you do not need to do anything more.

If not you have not given notice of your marriage by 1 February you will need to apply for a visit - marriage visa and pay the appropriate visa application fee.

http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pa...d=1106654124706

[gburns57au]

Question to the Powers that be.....

I have already made arrangements to get married in the UK after 1 February and already have a visit visa.

What should I do?

Answer:

If a UK registrar has already taken notice of your marriage. or will do so before 1 February, you do not need to do anything more.

If not you have not given notice of your marriage by 1 February you will need to apply for a visit - marriage visa and pay the appropriate visa application fee.

http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pa...d=1106654124706

So what you guys are saying is that prior to 1st Feb this year....any foreigner could waltz into the UK on a 6 month visitors/Student/working visa and get married to someone they have only just met then apply for a settlement visa for perm residency ???

Excuse me for sounding gob smacked......But for a country with supposedly very stringent immigration laws, this doesnt seem to add up....that would have made the UK an absolute pleasure garden for sham marriages....it also puts them so far behind other countries in regard to immigration laws regarding marriage in these circumstances.

Something really sounds wrong here....

[the scouser]

So what you guys are saying is that prior to 1st Feb this year....any foreigner could waltz into the UK on a 6 month visitors/Student/working visa and get married to someone they have only just met then apply for a settlement visa for perm residency ???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Spot on! Although, the fact that you were married did not guarantee you to be accepted for settlement.

Scouse.

[Vulture]

Well this certainly has created some discussion.

Just thought I would come back with a couple of points.

To Mr Burns a man it would seem whose glass is always half empty. Glad to see you eventually replaced the reading glasses for a pair which actually work. Can you let me know where I can obtain a pair in order that I can forward some to the British embassy. Think they need some also. As for my marriage, I can assure you that I am old enough and more importantly wise enough. Further I am also man enough to take your comments on board.

To GU22 who I have just removed from my Christmas card list. I am surprised that a man with your knowledge in this area has come out with such crap.

1. I never asked the embassy if we could marry. I asked immigration and they said yes. This was mentioned on the settlement visa application. The embassy emailed to say you do not have permission. I checked further. I mailed back and said you are wrong please reply. They did not reply. I DID MY BIT.

2. I do not expect for my wife to automatically qualify for a settlement visa. What I do pay my taxes for is to have someone working for the British Government that is supposed to know their field of expertise. Two do not. That is why I called them incompetent. People may not agree with us getting married after a short period of time, fine, thats up to them. But what I do take issue with is you calling ME incompetent.

[gburns57au]

So what you guys are saying is that prior to 1st Feb this year....any foreigner could waltz into the UK on a 6 month visitors/Student/working visa and get married to someone they have only just met then apply for a settlement visa for perm residency ???

Spot on! Although, the fact that you were married did not guarantee you to be accepted for settlement.

Scouse.

So thats why so many Poms are living in Thailand, even tho they hate the weather, food, newpapers etc....

The UK has lost a most effective means of Population control....

I still cant believe that the UK is so far behind on this.

But back to the OP....as you said "the fact that you were married did not guarantee you to be accepted for settlement."

So we go back again to the other reasons given,

Entering by deception, could this be due to the work she did there or is it due to to what she told the embassy on her original application...which so far we have not been made privy to that information.

They have hinted at the relationship not being genuine, is this by their guidelines or by something that the OP and his wife have done or have said to a case officer to make him suspect that things were not on the up and up.

There is more behind this than just the law change and ignoring advice. Unfortunately we dont know half of what the people at immigration know. Has the OP made full and honest disclosure here and does he even have to...No...He doesnt.

in the words of that great song from Oliver sung by Ron (Fagin) Moody...." I think we'd better go and think it out again"