Yeah, Another Sin Sot Thread....but Not A Painful One

[Latindancer]

Since this is an emotive issue, I'll try to keep to the bare facts. This is NOT a troll, by the way.

In the opinion of people here, should Sin Sot be paid in this case ?

A 32 year old girl from Issan who grew up on a rice farm, has a good brain, took out a government loan and went to University for 4 years, became a teacher, was married for 5 years ( Buddhist ceremony only ),

now separated for 4 years. I haven't met her parents yet.

She says that her father expects it ( 100k baht ), but I think also she wants to help her parents by getting it.....though it would probably get distributed by her father to other family members as needed. I have quoted people here as saying it is an outmoded custom, and the money is usually returned the next day, but she seems to think her father will / should keep it.

I don't want to be viewed as stingy, nor do I want to step on their toes culturally.

However I have very little money and this issue steps on MY toes culturally !

She comes from the very North of Issan, in an area called San Khom, near the Laos border.

I have read on this website people saying that Sin Sot is never paid in the case of previously married women. This sounds pretty inflexible. Perhaps I should pay it ( somehow) and ask that the wedding be paid out of it.........?

I think it would be a bit offensive to the family if I married her in Australia when we go there next year.......a bit like excluding them. What to do ? There must be a middle path.....or perhaps I just answered my own question 3 or 4 lines ago ? Is Sin Sot EVER paid in the case of a previously married woman ?

[neverdie]

Congradulations, you are the 1,000,000 poster to create a thread about Sin Sot.

No. Do not pay.

All Sin Sot threads are somewhat painful.

[webfact]

A new HUB....?

I suggest the OP to read this pinned topic:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Sin-Sod-Expl...ion-t85581.html

[richard_smith237]

It's my understanding that as she has been Married before then sin-sod it not the norm amongst Thai-Thai marriages. In that case it shouldn’t be for yours.

Paying for the wedding by yourself should be enough.

It might be helpful for your decision to establish what the norm is for your circumstances. i.e. IF she was marrying a Thai fella, what would happen then?

[Soutpeel]

Personally think you are being set up for a stitch up...if married previously Sin Sot not applicable as it would have been paid to the family previously by the Ex.

If you are worried about upsetting the family "culturally" offer them THB 50,000....not a great deal of money.

Bare in mind although you have most likely stated to the GF that you dont have a lot of money, Thai's generally believe the urban myth that all Farangs are rich and would suggest your bride to be believes no differently...

[sanook2me]

Personally i don't think you should pay it....

Taking her to Australia and giving her the opportunity to earn your big $ to send back to the family will be more than a one off payment of the sin sod..

Think you should explain it this way.

However, Thai style is take today tomorrow may never come...so they will not understand the concept above will eventually reap them more money....

Sin sod.....Never..... I am married...local amphore..never paid a thing and she is worth alot more than me......

Don't even do the monks/wat/ big ceremony baloney...run off to local amphore make it legit and take her to Australia.... earn some bucks come back and do the party then.....

It will be more appreciated.... you would have looked after the family for a year or more with their daughter sending money back from Oz, you will have more respect from everyone.... if you hold a big party after...

If you pay a sin sod now. the money will be wasted, you'll be a walking atm and have no respect other than being the big fat wallet....

IMHO...

Throw away line...sin sod really appears to be a scourge of lo-so people both Thai and farang... I may be wrong...but i doubt it...

[Curt1591]

Here is my brother in law's sinsodt. I was the only non-Thai at his wedding. It's not always a means to milk a farang!

That's 600K and pile of gold.

Edited November 17, 2009 by Curt1591

[Geekfreaklover]

If she has been a long term relationship then no payment should be given. I hate the whole sin sod debackle. But in this instance you shouldn't have to pay. If you do have to pay you want to ask yourself some serious questions.

[GungaDin]

You will find out what she really thinks of you when you "just say No"

Could be a good thing! ....

Edited November 17, 2009 by GungaDin

[Newguy70]

You will find out what she thinks of you when you "just say No" 

I think the prior post nailed it, IMHO. If the wife, or the family has even the smallest of objections, then move on.

However, we all must choose our own path.

I, myself can speak from experience as I am married to a Thai. We put money out for show, and it was returned. My wife, and I discussed all of this sorta stuff prior to even getting married. How much you show is up to you.

Keep in mind this is a marriage, not a car lease purchase!

[fletchsmile]

Here is my brother in law's sinsodt. I was the only non-Thai at his wedding. It's not always a means to milk a farang!

That's 600K and pile of gold.

Yes the practice has been around for years before foreigners came on the scene, and varies according to a wide range of factors.

Just curious: in this case was the money returned? Sometimes is. Sometimes isn't.

[MikeyIdea]

There are many things deciding if and how much money that should be paid – if the girl is married for the second time or not is not the decider, money is generally not paid the second time, yes, but it is not the rule. The “rule” is based on practicality not principle (as everything in Thailand). The decider for if and how much money that should be paid is traditionally how many children you are going to have, family status, if the family ever has lost face or not... Then of course, the Thais have distorted this by involving showing off and sometimes ripping off. Depending on circumstances, handing over money can apply to the second time too.

Did the girl have any children with the first husband? Are you planning to have any children? Traditionally, the money the husband give are put in a bank account and saved, to help the girl and kids if the marriage turns sour (a couple of years anyway). This is exactly what happened in my first marriage. The first thing that her father asked was how many kids did I plan to have? Yes, we did agree for an amount and I was asked to and did hand over 4 times as much at the wedding and promptly got the rest back directly after the wedding. Money was kept in the bank for a couple of years (under grand mothers watchful eyes) and she did come and talk to me when she finally after a couple of years wanted to use it, before spending a single bath of it.

Ask nicely of course but do ask. You won’t get any answers unless you ask. Ask the girl if money was paid the first time, ask how much. Tell her that you have heard that money is normally not paid the second time, Watch Her Face and Eyes, ask why she thinks it’s appropriate to pay again. If you’re short on money tell her and ask for her advice. We’ve got this much, shall we pay less money and have a more expensive wedding or vice versa? Rule number one in project management and relationship management – open communication

If the girl doesn’t have any kids yet and you plan to have now, then it’s not wrong at all to pay a bit of money. The girl is not a virgin any longer so it can be less but still… It should also be kept in the bank for a while (via the girl, demand that money is kept a year and that the girl (and you) are told before it is used). I also agree that if the family never has lost face, then the daughter marrying a foreigner is not a small thing.

It is not an outmoded custom, and (all) the money is usually not returned the next day (but parts of it may). It is still an important tool for a family to use to show that their daughter is marrying and leaving home “the proper way”. All my Thai friends had money paid at their weddings of course, none of my Thai friends were ripped off or paid for the divorce when they married, they just followed tradition.

The most important thing when a single soap opera TV star marries is of course to be able to show off the 2 carat diamond ring and the ten million bath paid. It will be a long time before that goes out-of-fashien

You pay the wedding of course, if she’s a good girl who really loves you, then I’d pay some money to the family too

Good Luck

Hope you'll have a couple of mini-latindancers in a couple of years time

[Latindancer]

Food for thought.......I'm taking on board what you're saying to me......Will mull it over.

Yes, it's sensible to say that I should ask some Thai people what would be done in similar circumstances, if I was a Thai man....

Edited November 17, 2009 by Latindancer

[Geekfreaklover]

Food for thought.......

Yes, it's sensible to say that I should ask some Thai people what would be done in similar circumstances, if I was a Thai man....

....If you were a Thai man you would not pay. You have to consider what you are buying and if it is worth it. Some foreign people are quite happy buying a Thai bride. Personally I feel that people are not for sale. The majority of the people that are happy have some kind of pension or benefit from the West. A set amount of money each month, which their supposed love one spends.

No point in asking Thai people unless you speak the language fluently. They will never tell you that you are making a mistake as Thai's hate confrontation.

Up to you.

[sassienie]

The sin-sod is not a main part of Thai culture and these days it has become mostly regarded as a scam.

Anyone that gives money in this way is an idiot, plain and simple.

The sin-sod was originally created between those in the poor village communities. It was meant as a gesture between a poor peasant’s son and a poor peasant’s daughter, to prove that the son could financially support the peasant’s precious daughter. The more beautiful girls were valued as the most desired and valued possessions of a particular family, so the family believed they were giving something of value, therefore the more beautiful the girl, the higher the sin-sod. Brains were considered as the least important, but more so her childbearing capabilities to produce strong, healthy good-looking children to work the farms and support their parents later on. It was considered as an investment for the future, when the parents become old.

As Thais believe all Farangs are rich and financially secure already, same as with the Thais that come from the big cities, this custom does not apply to them.

Some savvy person has educated these peasants on how to capitalise on this ancient sin-sod custom.

Also the Farang could argue that in Western traditions, it is the bride’s parents that should pay for the wedding. Tell them that the English version of a sin-sod is a sod-off.

Fools never listen to advice or use common sense, they only learn by experience.

Edited November 17, 2009 by sassienie

[mrtoad]

Up to you.

Never a truer sentence spoken.

[fletchsmile]

A lot of it really comes down to personal choice and what you both are comfortable with - bearing in mind the wife will have some loyalties to the family that will sway her opinion. I think you need to discuss further the situation with her, and then perhaps with the family. You definitely need more info from her to base your decision on:

Questions to ask:

1) What was her Sinsot first time round?

2) What have her brothers/ sisters / cousins /nephews /neices etc paid/received?

3) What happened to the Sinsot on all these occasions: returned or kept?

4) What would she expect from a Thai on a second marriage?

5) What have her brothers/ sisters / cousins /nephews /neices etc paid/received on a second marriage?

6) What happened to the Sinsot on all these occasions for second marriage: returned or kept?

These will give you a benchmark as to the ballpark IF she was a first timer, as well as some idea of what their custom is second time, and answer most of your questions. My guess is you'd be slightly higher standing that most of the relatives, so might be expceted to do a bit more but not too much.

Now given she's not a first timer, and given you're a foreigner, there are strong arguments for a flat refusal, anyway. You have to balance that versus marrying a girl you love, and perhaps wanting a nice ceremony, being part of the family etc.

So then you get the following type of questions:

Do you want a nice Thai wedding to remember or are you happy with a functional registry do - bit miserable when you look back?

How comfortable are you paying that amount - how much is it to you?

How important is it for you to have a relationship with the family?

What will she do if you refuse to pay? - Would you risk the love of your life for USD 3k?

What is your wife's views? - Very important

Personally if it were me, and given the amounts mentioned above are not that much to me:

1) I would be prepared to pay something as a compromise

2) Definitely not what they've asked: i) on principal ii) it looks high.

3) I'd like a nice wedding, and I'd like to announce to the world including her family and friends this is my wife.

4) Call me competitive but I'd offer a little more than her first husband paid - to mark out my position (terrible description I know) and establish for all to see we are now together

5) In years to come when you have kids, it will be nice to show them photos of a wedding. You can focus on having married like everyone else, rather than: it was mummy's 2nd time, so it wasn't special and we just signed some paper etc etc.

6) I'd like to give her some face, even if one argues it's not necessary.

7) Note: In years to come when you look back with a happy family, the amount could seem ridiculously small

Lastly:

8) If they insist on 100k - which I guess they would want to keep in their society based on info of background - I would expect back the difference between my offer and their 100k, as my last compromise. i.e pay 100k but get back 40k if 60k was my offer. Explain very firmly at this point:

" It's not my custom, I love your daughter but she has been married before. I am willing to compromise because I love her and to give her and the family face. I expect you and your family to compromise too as compromise is what spending the rest of our life together will involve across cultures"

I would seriously consider walking away at point 8) on principle and at this stage would definitely play hardball. If you are compromising so should they, otherwise the marriage will likely go nowehere in the future. If you get to number 8) don't be afraid to leave them chewing it over a few days. And don't be afraid to walk away, knowing you had compromised and done everything reasonable to try and make it happen. This might give comfort in later years you did the right thing if you don't proceed. Otherwise you could look back and for the sake of USD2k missed the love of your life - at least you'll know you tried but she wasn't worth it.

BTW Do check out and confirm with evidence she is divorced first!

BTW2 I applied in practice much of what I've written above, with the exception that for me my wife was marrying 1st time round.

Yes it can be a difficult time in some ways, but if you're both not prepared to compromise at the start of a marriage, when will you? We thoroughly enjoyed the day and set some important precedents for the future. I have to be honest and say at first I was uncomfortable with the concept at all - with hindsight it was definitely the right decision to compromise and pay something. In terms of amount, with every day that passes the amount looks smaller and smaller. I would consider myself a complete idiot to let slip by such happiness just because I wouldn't compromise, and am glad I did. All her family paid/received Sin Sot when they were married too.

Edited November 17, 2009 by fletchsmile

[fletchsmile]

The sin-sod is not a main part of Thai culture and these days it has become mostly regarded as a scam.

Anyone that gives money in this way is an idiot, plain and simple.

...

All you're showing here is that you've rarely (if ever) been to Thai weddings, whether Thai-Thai or Thai-foreigner, and you really have no clue on the subject...

Edited November 17, 2009 by fletchsmile

[TexasRanger]

The sin-sod is not a main part of Thai culture and these days it has become mostly regarded as a scam.

What a ridiculous and ill informed post. You obviously know little of Thai culture.

There were 2 weddings in my village earlier this year and one of the girls was previously married, she was given Sin Sodt (albeit not very much). I have not been to a single Thai wedding in Bangkok or the country where sin sodt wasn't paid. These were all Thai/Thai weddings.

[MikeyIdea]

The sin-sod is not a main part of Thai culture and these days it has become mostly regarded as a scam.

***

Anyone that gives money in this way is an idiot, plain and simple.

I have spent the last 10 years here in Thailand speaking much more Thai than English and have only recently gone back to speaking more English again to teach my 5 year old daughter

"and these days it has become mostly regarded as a scam."

Among Farang - Thai marriages maybe but not Thai – Thai marriages anyway. It is correct that there are more marriages now a days when money is not paid, and many more marriages when all the money is given back but the tradition has not disintegrated.

It's very true what Geekfreaklover writes; It's up to you

Edited November 17, 2009 by MikeyIdea

[yabaaaa]

Here is my brother in law's sinsodt. I was the only non-Thai at his wedding. It's not always a means to milk a farang!

That's 600K and pile of gold.

Always seems rather vulgar to me.

[husskydog]

Dont get married, just live together..and if you must pay something, pay a small retainer to her parents each month, regular income to them will teach them to be more prudent...speaks volumes...oh and if it goes tits up no worries after...

[MikeyIdea]

I must say that I am a bit surprised about what some westerners here write, and a bit ashamed too. But then, maybe I have been in Thailand too long…

To deserve the right to live in Thailand, westerners need to respect Thai culture and tradition

[Soutpeel]

Tell them that the English version of a sin-sod is a sod-off.

.... "QUOTE OF THE DAY"

[MiG16]

Personally if it were me, and given the amounts mentioned above are not that much to me:

5) In years to come when you have kids, it will be nice to show them photos of a wedding. You can focus on having married like everyone else, rather than: it was mummy's 2nd time, so it wasn't special and we just signed some paper etc etc.

Fletch has given some very good advice, and to me point 5 he mentioned above is particularly worth keeping in mind

all the best

[Soutpeel]

To deserve the right to live in Thailand, westerners need to respect Thai culture and tradition

Ah and there is the answer to your statement....most Westerners dont have the right to live in Thailand, they are "perpetual tourists" whether married or not and on the whim of a goverment offical could be ejected from chosen country

In my experience respect is earned not demanded and seeing as we are dicussing cross cultural marriages, which are suppose to be partnerships, by the same token that the Westerner's should respect Thai culture and tradition, the Thai spouse should respect the Westerners culture and traditions.

In most Western cultures the brides father springs for the cost of the wedding, In Thai culture, Sin Sot applicable...therefore for an inter-cultural marriage the middle ground/compromise needs to be determined.

I wouldnt go so far as to say Sin Sot (which I didnt pay either incidently) is a scam, but it is sure as h*ll played on by Thai familes in cases of Westerners marrying Thai spouses to their finiancial benefit..

[Maigo6]

The sin-sod is not a main part of Thai culture and these days it has become mostly regarded as a scam.

Wow, how enlightening, tell me how much more you know of Thai culture .

If the above statement is anything to go by, you know absolutely nothing.

Thankfully,Thai customs and culture are not influenced by bitter and twisted internet forum farangs.

[Maigo6]

I wouldnt go so far as to say Sin Sot (which I didnt pay either incidently) is a scam, but it is sure as h*ll played on by Thai familes in cases of Westerners marrying Thai spouses to their finiancial benefit..

So on one hand you're saying that Thai families play on the sinsot when westerners marry a Thai, then you're saying that you didn't pay, along with most other Thai visa members who claim they also didn't pay, so who does pay, only non ThaiVisa members ?

[Matan]

I wouldnt go so far as to say Sin Sot (which I didnt pay either incidently) is a scam, but it is sure as h*ll played on by Thai familes in cases of Westerners marrying Thai spouses to their finiancial benefit..

So on one hand you're saying that Thai families play on the sinsot when westerners marry a Thai, then you're saying that you didn't pay, along with most other Thai visa members who claim they also didn't pay, so who does pay, only non ThaiVisa members ?

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that a poor family may, upon finding out that their daughter is marrying a (baht) millionaire, use a tradition, even a faded/purely ceremonial one, to secure financial gain for themselves. Statistically that seems to be the demographic involved in foreigner-thai marriages. The reason no one on Thai visa seems to have paid it is one of two things:

a) They married a hi-so girl whose family wealth vastly overshadowed their own.

They paid and are embarrassed to admit to it.

I don't know which one I would choose.

[Curt1591]

Here is my brother in law's sinsodt. I was the only non-Thai at his wedding. It's not always a means to milk a farang!

That's 600K and pile of gold.

Yes the practice has been around for years before foreigners came on the scene, and varies according to a wide range of factors.

Just curious: in this case was the money returned? Sometimes is. Sometimes isn't.

Yes, in their case, as in many, the money was show of ability to support. The wife's family passed it on back to the couple shortly after the wedding.