Red Shirt Rally November 29

[h90]

We may yet get the posponement of the rally. As Khwanchai said it is up to Thaksin. What better way to show loyalty than to call for the red shirts to not gather to allow a smooth celebration of the Birthday. That however, allows Abhisit a big role in condfucting events on TV and Thaksin may not like that. Lets assume he isnt murdered in Chiang Mai too.

Edited to add: I sincerely apologise for posting on the topic rather than the old events we have have discussed for many many months.

I recall that some of the reds told that all that is NOT about Thaksin. It is about democracy bla bla bla not about Thaksin.

Now again Thaksin decide this Thaksin decide that....

[animatic]

You know a new BIG red rally is coming when the old hoary histrionic B.S. comes out once again

to attempt yet again to sway the minds of the gullible or gather cannon fodder for the coming battle.

This pattern has become so blindingly obvious, and ineffective...

I don't understand why that group doesn't put it to rest as a waste of THEIR time.

[KireB]

If you don't think a slingshot with a ballbearing is not a deadly weapon,

then you never lived in the sticks at any time. I have cooked a rabbit dinner killed with a slingshot.

That potential for death is inherent to it's typical usage.

Maybe he should ask Goliath about the effectiveness of a slingshot

[justanothercybertosser]

Ask your friends what really happened. One of our friends was on the OTHER truck together with mostly females.......

The attempt to attack that truck triggered the action of the PAD guards.

Do your friends also support the statements made on the PAD stage last sunday?

Here, for you to read:

http://www.prachatai.com/english/node/1495

Because this is a bit of a different picture of the PAD your and your friends want to present here...

[sbk]

I am about 30 seconds away from deleting about half the posts in this thread. This thread is about the upcoming demonstration and this constant re-hashing of past events is more than just tedious. You've all made your points regarding this in multiple threads multiple times.

Lets get back to and stay on to the CURRENT subject please.

[justanothercybertosser]

Don Muang had YET to be taken over.

They were going from Gov House to Swampy.

Hardly, as Suvarnabhumi is on the opposite end of Bangkok.

They came from the occupied temporary government offices in Don Muang airport. Suvarnabhumi was occupied the same day, Novermber 25th.

Edited November 22, 2009 by justanothercybertosser

[justanothercybertosser]

I am about 30 seconds away from deleting about half the posts in this thread. This thread is about the upcoming demonstration and this constant re-hashing of past events is more than just tedious. You've all made your points regarding this in multiple threads multiple times.

Lets get back to and stay on to the CURRENT subject please.

Sorry to slightly differ here.

But the PAD will be an active player in the upcoming protests, as they were during Songran. Some here try to desperately paint a picture of peaceful PADistas, and one has to cite current warmongering statements of the PAD, and its past actions in order to show that the PAD is another very violent organization.

Edited November 22, 2009 by justanothercybertosser

[justanothercybertosser]

The sword incident was at the end of a group attack on the truck.

He who attacks first must assume the lion's share of the blame.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbnFPhExOTw

watch this, to refresh your memory

[sbk]

I really think this has been hashed, rehashed and rehashed yet again.

[Publicus]

Yeah, looking forward no one seems to have anything concrete about what the reds or anyone else are going to do beginning the 29th as even the date keeps changing and there now is some question about the the event happening given the Dec 5th holiday and observance.

One thing we do know is that the timing of the dates of this announced 'gathering' of the reds is incredible and incredulous. Intended or not, the timing would be an indication of an intent to cause physical clashes of one kind or another.

[animatic]

I am about 30 seconds away from deleting about half the posts in this thread. This thread is about the upcoming demonstration and this constant re-hashing of past events is more than just tedious. You've all made your points regarding this in multiple threads multiple times.

Lets get back to and stay on to the CURRENT subject please.

Please, I wish you would delete the off-topic stuff. I've worn out my mouse's scroller trying to find posts related to the Red Shirt Rally November 29.

I'm also surprised that even after your warning, all the subsequent posts have returned to old off-topic history.

This was one.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=3157408

It is a dual comment because PART of the coming red rally is this BS you have to scroll through.

It's like the PR propaganda preamble and this has happened prior to most of the Red rallies in the last year.

Why it ramps up every time, for so little actual effect eludes me.

[animatic]

Yeah, looking forward no one seems to have anything concrete about what the reds or anyone else are going to do beginning the 29th as even the date keeps changing and there now is some question about the the event happening given the Dec 5th holiday and observance.

One thing we do know is that the timing of the dates of this announced 'gathering' of the reds is incredible and incredulous. Intended or not, the timing would be an indication of an intent to cause physical clashes of one kind or another.

Yes, the timing most certainly is callously showing the foot.

Where that is aimed... .... .... is just beyond the pale.

[Splatter]

Any updates on what the planned marching routes are, please?

[h90]

Any updates on what the planned marching routes are, please?

no but it is estimated that 40.000 people will come (so a bit short of 1.000.000)

How they think they can do a peoples revolution with just 40.000??

But lets see who is right at the end.....

[Steve2UK]

Suthep to ask Cabinet to enforce ISA from Nov 28 to Dec 14

Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban said Monday that the security agencies resolved to have the Cabinet enforce the Internal Security Act in parts of Bangkok from November 28 to December 14 to cope with the red-shirt rally.

Speaking to reporters after a meeting with security agencies, Suthep said he will ask the Cabinet to approve the enforcement of the ISA for Dusit district, Rajdamnoen Road and Bang Khun Prom area during the period.

-- The Nation 24 November 2009

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[TAWP]

And what does that mean for us that like to live like non-hoodlings, on the 28th?

[hammered]

Any updates on what the planned marching routes are, please?

no but it is estimated that 40.000 people will come (so a bit short of 1.000.000)

How they think they can do a peoples revolution with just 40.000??

But lets see who is right at the end.....

If they go for it I think it will be more than 40K. Some of the upcountry rallies recently although not exactly matching organisers claims have been quite well attended. At Songkran there were also smaller demos at many provincial towns some were very small but some were quite large although this wasnt widely reported. Having simultaneous provincial demos may happen again. It really depends on how much they push for it and what the intention is. Right now we just dont know. 40K sounds like authorities dont think they'll go for it.

[Steve2UK]

PARAPHRASE

Deputy PM Suthep said to reporters on 23 November that officials have been told to inform employers that non-Thai workers may not participate in the protests scheduled to start on 29 November. He said that the government will instigate legal proceedings against such people if they don't comply - because only Thai's are entitled to express their views about politics.

As noted, this is necessarily a paraphrase (of what Bangkok Post reported Suthep as saying - presumably on the same occasion as The Nation's report above?) - in order to comply with current restrictions on quoting from them here and which presumably also applies to their translation of anything said in Thai. I have done my level best to retain the meaning and context of their original wording - easy to check that by seeking out the original article in the Post's online Breaking News section (the link to which I am also not allowed to provide). While you're there, I recommend reading the comments on the article.

Now, I don't suggest (and I think it would be foolish to if only based on this) that Suthep is already saying that any and all farang who are not Thai citizens may not take part in (these) protests - and I do think it's clear that he's referring to protests and not to posting on a blog or forum - but I do start to wonder where this might go next. As it stands, IMO what he said does appear to bar farang employees from taking part; if that's the case, one also wonders why he wouldn't similarly bar all non-Thai people (e.g. your typical non-working expats) from taking part?

It's not straightforward to equate what he does say with the Thai Constitution (2007) which specifies "person" and not "Thai national" or "Thai citizen" in the following:

- Section 45: "A person shall enjoy the liberty to express his or her opinion, make speeches, write, print, publicise, and make expression by other means."

- Section 30: "All persons are equal before the law and shall enjoy equal protection under the law."

- Section 30: "Unjust discrimination against a person on the grounds of the difference in origin, race, language, sex, age, disability, physical or health condition, personal status, economic or social standing, religious belief, education or constitutionally political view, shall not be permitted."

Then again, as we know from other country's examples (notably US Supreme Court), constitutional provisions are subject to interpretation and therefore dispute. Would your typical non-Thai worker or farang expat in Thailand really want to sit in a detention centre while his/her case works its famously slow way through the Thai legal system? Section 3 states "The sovereign power belongs to the Thai people." and Section 5 states "The Thai people, irrespective of their origins, sexes or religions, shall enjoy equal protection under this Constitution." - i.e. nothing about non-"Thai people" - so arguably a "person" in Sections 30 and 45 is only a Thai. Probably enough ambiguity there to finance a replacement Mercedes for a few lawyers......

Then again also, as we know from other country's examples (notably US), just citing "national security" seems to have a way of at least putting such protections into question if not outright bypassing them. Note that Section 45 continues: "The restriction on liberty under paragraph one [the first line quoted earlier] shall not be imposed except by virtue of the law specifically enacted for the purpose of maintaining the security of State, protecting the rights, liberties, dignity, reputation, family or privacy rights of other person, maintaining public order or good morals or preventing or halting the deterioration of the mind or health of the public." Assuming "law specifically enacted" refers to the ISA and defamation laws for example........ it seems to provide plenty of scope for interpretation. Seems a correction to my earlier observation is in order - not just a replacement Mercedes but extra ones for the lawyers' spouses and/or kids too............

[all constitution quotes taken from http://www.asianlii.org/th/legis/const/2007/1.html ]

[webfact]

Cabinet resolves to enforce ISA in Bangkok

The Cabinet Tuesday resolved to enforce the Internal Security Act in Bangkok from November 28 to December 14 to deal with the planned mass rally of the red-shirt movement, Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva said.

He said the ISA enforcement is necessary because there will be celebrations of His Majesty's birthday during the period.

He said security agencies were still considering whether to enforce ISA in Bangkok over the weekend when Abhisit is scheduled to visit Chiang Mai to chair the Chamber of Commerce meeting.

-- The Nation 2009/11/24

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[WinnieTheKhwai]

VERY good comments Steve2UK, and another sign that bit by bit Thailand is becoming less free, and freedom of expression is being limited. (And not just for foreigners either).

( BTW, no need to jump through all those hoops in relating to the BK Post; Suthep's inane comments were all over the Thai media as well. I read it in Matichon. )

He basically said that 'freedom of expression applies to Thais only'. Makes you wonder what other rights apply to Thais only. (In Suthep's mind, that must be said). Fortunately some Red groups seem more open, and have a much more enlightened view of Democracy. (Note: "some" does not mean "all".)

Edited November 24, 2009 by WinnieTheKhwai

[WinnieTheKhwai]

He said the ISA enforcement is necessary because there will be celebrations of His Majesty's birthday during the period.

LOL.. The december 5th holiday and events surrounding it are specifically EXCLUDED from the protests; they have made that clear from the start.

Anyway, I hope Abhisit will remember this next time there is a protest after the 5th. Surely he can lift what is effectively martial law from December 6th onwards??

Something tells me though that he'll find another excuse..

[Jingthing]

He said the ISA enforcement is necessary because there will be celebrations of His Majesty's birthday during the period.

LOL.. The december 5th holiday and events surrounding it are specifically EXCLUDED from the protests; they have made that clear from the start.

Anyway, I hope Abhisit will remember this next time there is a protest after the 5th. Surely he can lift what is effectively martial law from December 6th onwards??

Something tells me though that he'll find another excuse..

You can dance around this point all you want, but the TIMING of this "final push" by the Thaksin led red shirts is clearly very incendiary to a huge portion of Thai people. We know what Thaksin wants. He has said so in both words and actions. To topple the government using violence if necessary and its hard to imagine that happening without a lot of violence. This isn't a game.

(They aren't rallying to sing KUMBUYAH!)

Edited November 24, 2009 by Jingthing

[justanothercybertosser]

Any updates on what the planned marching routes are, please?

no but it is estimated that 40.000 people will come (so a bit short of 1.000.000)

How they think they can do a peoples revolution with just 40.000??

But lets see who is right at the end.....

If they go for it I think it will be more than 40K. Some of the upcountry rallies recently although not exactly matching organisers claims have been quite well attended. At Songkran there were also smaller demos at many provincial towns some were very small but some were quite large although this wasnt widely reported. Having simultaneous provincial demos may happen again. It really depends on how much they push for it and what the intention is. Right now we just dont know. 40K sounds like authorities dont think they'll go for it.

It was a Bangkok Post article that claimed "40 000". It most likely will be more.

Before the Songkran riots at the day the marched to Prem's house conservative estimates was more than 100 000 people (lets ignore red shirt claims of 300 000 - they are about as exaggerated as PAD claims always were).

[medegen]

I'm not sure any of you know but the govt has banned foreigners from joining the protest. Just a warning. Here's a quote from the Deputy Prime Minister "The government will take legal action if they fail to comply, because only Thai people have the right to voice their political opinions."

[jif]

Police run factory check after reports of alien workers joining UDD rally

BANGKOK, 23 November 2009 (NNT) – The Acting Metropolitan Police Commissioner has ordered a strict inspection of the factories employing alien labor after there have been reports that alien laborers have been recruited to join the upcoming rally of the anti-government United Front of Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD).

Acting Metropolitan Police Commissioner, Pol Lt-Gen Santhan Chayanont, said he has assigned his deputy, Pol Maj-Gen Sumet Ruengsawasdi, to check and coordinate with factory owners to keep an eye on their immigrant employees after hearing that they have been urged to join the UDD movement on 28 November.

The Metropolitan Police chief said he was not worried about ensuring peace and order during the rally. However, police are negotiating with the UDD core figures to postpone the gathering, as the rally period is deemed inappropriate as it coincides with the King’s birthday celebrations.

Pol Lt-Gen Santhan said the force is well-prepared for all circumstances and affirmed that it will not use violent measures.

Pol Maj-Gen Sumet added that movement of alien workers during the period of the rally will be closely monitored. Factory owners must be responsible for the immigrant laborers who take leave and join the rally as the right to peaceful assembly in the Kingdom is only applied to Thai citizens.

The UDD supporters will gather from 28 November to 2 December in the hope to topple the government.

http://thainews.prd.go.th/en/news.php?id=255211230046

[otherstuff1957]

IMHO using the ISA is a mistake. Either the Reds will protest peacefully, which is their right, or they will commit political suicide by rioting on the King's birthday.

[hammered]

Any updates on what the planned marching routes are, please?

no but it is estimated that 40.000 people will come (so a bit short of 1.000.000)

How they think they can do a peoples revolution with just 40.000??

But lets see who is right at the end.....

If they go for it I think it will be more than 40K. Some of the upcountry rallies recently although not exactly matching organisers claims have been quite well attended. At Songkran there were also smaller demos at many provincial towns some were very small but some were quite large although this wasnt widely reported. Having simultaneous provincial demos may happen again. It really depends on how much they push for it and what the intention is. Right now we just dont know. 40K sounds like authorities dont think they'll go for it.

It was a Bangkok Post article that claimed "40 000". It most likely will be more.

Before the Songkran riots at the day the marched to Prem's house conservative estimates was more than 100 000 people (lets ignore red shirt claims of 300 000 - they are about as exaggerated as PAD claims always were).

That sounds a more credible number. Maybe a little more. Depends on organisers and also I guess what the CM group do as they cant be in BKK and CM on the same day.

Deja Vue for me. CM equates to Pattaya with the main meal in BKK. Guess Dec 5 puts an end date on it too, maybe even Dec 4

[medegen]

I think quite a few red shirt higher ups have said they plan on taking down the government, so i don't think its going to be much of a peaceful protest. Here's another link taking about foreigners banned from protesting. http://asiancorrespondent.com/bangkok-pund...h-the-reds-.htm

A quote from that page "Suthep also wanted to pass a message onto non-Thais that peaceful protests under the constitution was limited to Thais only. Therefore, if a foreigner protests, they have broken the law."

[hammered]

I think quite a few red shirt higher ups have said they plan on taking down the government, so i don't think its going to be much of a peaceful protest. Here's another link taking about foreigners banned from protesting. http://asiancorrespondent.com/bangkok-pund...h-the-reds-.htm

A quote from that page "Suthep also wanted to pass a message onto non-Thais that peaceful protests under the constitution was limited to Thais only. Therefore, if a foreigner protests, they have broken the law."

I think quite a few of the leadership are worried about violence close to Dec 5. That doesnt mena it wont happen but lessens the likelihood. Stick a lot of peopel in a highly charged atmosphere or speeches and anger and it is easy for soemthing to spark things off even with the best of intentions. There are also third forces. Of course after we move further past Dec 5 things could change.

[webfact]

Cabinet invokes security law to maintain order during Red Shirt rally

BANGKOK, Nov 24 (TNA) Thailand's Cabinet on Tuesday resolved to invoke the country's Internal Security Act (ISA) from this Saturday through mid-December to maintain law and order during the upcoming major protest of the anti-government United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship (UDD).

The so-called Red Shirt protesters earlier announced that they would hold a mass rally to oust the Abhisit Vejjajiva administration beginning November 28 to December 2, and will march to several important spots in the capital on November 30.

Prime Minister Abhisit said after the weekly cabinet meeting that there was a report over the protesters' plan to incite violence during their gathering and that the Red Shirt supporters also planned to march to many important areas across Bangkok.

He said the ISA enforcement across Bangkok from November 28 to December 14 would help maintain order and prevent any possible untoward incident. It will also facilitate rehearsals for the annual Trooping of the Colours of the Royal Guard and the preparations of activities to mark the birthday of His Majesty the King during that period. All activities will be held at the Red Shirt's rally sites.

The premier gave assurances to the public that the imposition of the ISA will not affect the country's tourism industry.

"Each time unrest occurs, it causes huge damage, much greater than the budget that we spend to maintain the law and order," said Mr Abhisit. "Actually the government does not want to waste money on that issue, but it is necessary to use when forced to by the situation."

Deputy government spokesman Supachai Chaisamut also said as the protesters will move to many other areas, apart from their main rally site, the ISA will allow security personnel to maintain order in all areas of Bangkok, unlike the April incident which authorities could do nothing when protesters blocked the Victory Monument.

In related developments, Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban said he is also proposing the cabinet to consider the ISA enforcement from November 27-29 in some sub-districts of Chiang Mai where the premier will visit this Sunday for his safety.

He said the only four or five sub-districts will be under security law as they are passage of the premier's motorcade and the Thai Chamber of Commerce's meeting venue, as the Red Shirt activists still incite their supporters to cause chaos via community radios.

Mr Suthep said the concerned agencies will be careful when imposing the ISA so as not to affect people's daily life and the city's tourism industry.

The cabinet however is still considering and evaluating the situation whether to enforce the ISA in Chiang Mai, a major stronghold and the hometown of convicted former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra. The clarification will be made by the end of this week.

Watchara Kanhikar, another deputy government spokesman, said many cabinet members including deputy prime minister Suthep and interior minister Chavarat Charnvirakul disagreed with the premier's planned visit to Chiang Mai.

Both of them expressed concern that it is likely to have violent incident and could be linked with the Red Shirt's main rally in the capital which will be held in the same period.

The premier however said his schedule remains unchanged but that is subject to the national security agencies' advice. (TNA)

-- TNA 2009/11/24

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