Pm Abhisit Visits North

[Ricardo]

Certainly the Reds reacted to the PAD intimidation and violence and obviously Thaksin was their backer (just as the PAD had their rich paymasters).But the yellows pioneered the phenomomen.

To say that the yellows pioneered in violence and intimidation is absolute nonsense, please get your facts right!

Don't argue with me because I don't sense you welcome home truths.Consult current political historians of which Pasuk/Baker are the most accessible and reliable in English.It's beyond argument the yellow movement pioneered intimidation and violence on the streets, and as you suggest the reds followed suit.I'm not arguing one was worse than the other, simply noting the critical path which is incontrovertible.You can scream "nonsense" as much as you like but the facts are clear.

Might I suggest that, when the yellows first began to protest against corruption & murky goings-on in the TRT-government, there were incidents where black-shirted people were seen to attack them, under the apparent direction of the police on-the-scene ? Loyal civil-servants often use their power to support the latest government in-power, of whatever shade, seeking to gain favour or promotion or whatever.

It is therefore wrong to suggest that the PAD pioneered the intimidation, although the switch from black to red-shirts may have come later, government-directed violence has occurred on all sides, since at least Thaksin's days. The military have also done this many times in the past. So I simply cannot agree with your statement (not fact) that "it's beyond argument that the yellow movement pioneered intimidation and violence on the streets".

And I'm slightly saddened to see one TV-poster try to tell another that he has no right to express a different point-of-view, or interpret the facts differently, we farangs should set a better example and show tolerance. Descent into flaming neither wins arguments nor leads to a long life on TV, IME.

[jayboy]

Certainly the Reds reacted to the PAD intimidation and violence and obviously Thaksin was their backer (just as the PAD had their rich paymasters).But the yellows pioneered the phenomomen.

To say that the yellows pioneered in violence and intimidation is absolute nonsense, please get your facts right!

Don't argue with me because I don't sense you welcome home truths.Consult current political historians of which Pasuk/Baker are the most accessible and reliable in English.It's beyond argument the yellow movement pioneered intimidation and violence on the streets, and as you suggest the reds followed suit.I'm not arguing one was worse than the other, simply noting the critical path which is incontrovertible.You can scream "nonsense" as much as you like but the facts are clear.

Might I suggest that, when the yellows first began to protest against corruption & murky goings-on in the TRT-government, there were incidents where black-shirted people were seen to attack them, under the apparent direction of the police on-the-scene ? Loyal civil-servants often use their power to support the latest government in-power, of whatever shade, seeking to gain favour or promotion or whatever.

It is therefore wrong to suggest that the PAD pioneered the intimidation, although the switch from black to red-shirts may have come later, government-directed violence has occurred on all sides, since at least Thaksin's days. The military have also done this many times in the past. So I simply cannot agree with your statement (not fact) that "it's beyond argument that the yellow movement pioneered intimidation and violence on the streets".

And I'm slightly saddened to see one TV-poster try to tell another that he has no right to express a different point-of-view, or interpret the facts differently, we farangs should set a better example and show tolerance. Descent into flaming neither wins arguments nor leads to a long life on TV, IME.

I'm afraid you will have to develop your black shirt theory a little more.The role of the PAD yellow shirts and the subsequent activation of the red shirts is very well documented.

I'm not sure if you're addressing me in your rather strange final admonition.Read my post more carefully please.I suggested KireB not to argue with me on that subject because he didn't give the impression of welcoming some home truths.I suggested he do some basic research referring him to the many excellent books that are available.There is also plenty of first class material on the web.I suggest you take the same advice.When you have some mastery of the basic facts including the mysterious black shirt theory, I'm more than happy to discuss.

[KireB]

I'm not sure if you're addressing me in your rather strange final admonition.Read my post more carefully please.I suggested KireB not to argue with me on that subject because he didn't give the impression of welcoming some home truths.I suggested he do some basic research referring him to the many excellent books that are available.There is also plenty of first class material on the web.I suggest you take the same advice.When you have some mastery of the basic facts including the mysterious black shirt theory, I'm more than happy to discuss.

Not mysterious at all Jayboy, this mysterious black hand is the group of scum that, under the eyes, and seemingly in approvance of the present police force, attacked women and elder people at the Central World Plaza in August 2006. This was the first eruption of violence in this whole saga!

[h90]

forecast for chiang mai is 4000 red shirts published (from the not to be named newspaper)

[Ricardo]

I'm afraid you will have to develop your black shirt theory a little more.The role of the PAD yellow shirts and the subsequent activation of the red shirts is very well documented.

I'm not sure if you're addressing me in your rather strange final admonition.Read my post more carefully please.I suggested KireB not to argue with me on that subject because he didn't give the impression of welcoming some home truths.I suggested he do some basic research referring him to the many excellent books that are available.There is also plenty of first class material on the web.I suggest you take the same advice.When you have some mastery of the basic facts including the mysterious black shirt theory, I'm more than happy to discuss.

For the first, KireB has already just said it.

For the latter, "rather strange" and "when you have some mastery of the basic facts" will do it for me, I decline to join your flame-fest, and will exercise my option to use the 'Ignored' button instead. Goodbye !

[jackspratt]

I'm not sure if you're addressing me in your rather strange final admonition.Read my post more carefully please.I suggested KireB not to argue with me on that subject because he didn't give the impression of welcoming some home truths.I suggested he do some basic research referring him to the many excellent books that are available.There is also plenty of first class material on the web.I suggest you take the same advice.When you have some mastery of the basic facts including the mysterious black shirt theory, I'm more than happy to discuss.

Not mysterious at all Jayboy, this mysterious black hand is the group of scum that, under the eyes, and seemingly in approvance of the present police force, attacked women and elder people at the Central World Plaza in August 2006. This was the first eruption of violence in this whole saga!

Hmmm....very strange.

Silence seems to reign

Edited November 24, 2009 by jackspratt

[billd766]

I remember that episode very well and it was reported on both English language papers at the time.

AFAIK nobody was ever prosecuted or charged with anything and it was during the time that (PC now) Thaksin Shinawat was the prime minister and it happened when he was close by the scene.

[jayboy]

The discussion was about the similarities between the Thai political movements and the Chinese Red Guards.This requires some knowledge and background of the Red Guards purpose, motivation and backing.The only real candidates in Thailand are the Yellow and Red movements, not the blues or blacks who made very occasional and in the scheme of things insignificant appearences.The yellows pioneered intimidation and violence and had powerful though shadowy backers.The reds followed in the yellows footsteps with the backing of Thaksin.Both groupings were large and socially significant and both contained genuine idealists.I don't know how to make this any simpler.

[way2muchcoffee]

The discussion was about the similarities between the Thai political movements and the Chinese Red Guards.This requires some knowledge and background of the Red Guards purpose, motivation and backing.The only real candidates in Thailand are the Yellow and Red movements, not the blues or blacks who made very occasional and in the scheme of things insignificant appearences.The yellows pioneered intimidation and violence and had powerful though shadowy backers.The reds followed in the yellows footsteps with the backing of Thaksin.Both groupings were large and socially significant and both contained genuine idealists.I don't know how to make this any simpler.

Please document precisely why you believe the Yellows 'pioneered' violence and intimidation. You are evidently well-read, so it should be no problem to summarize your views, with suitable references. I am particularly interested in the 'pioneered' aspect. It is my understanding that political violence is common throughout Thailand's history.

Edited November 25, 2009 by way2muchcoffee

[jayboy]

The discussion was about the similarities between the Thai political movements and the Chinese Red Guards.This requires some knowledge and background of the Red Guards purpose, motivation and backing.The only real candidates in Thailand are the Yellow and Red movements, not the blues or blacks who made very occasional and in the scheme of things insignificant appearences.The yellows pioneered intimidation and violence and had powerful though shadowy backers.The reds followed in the yellows footsteps with the backing of Thaksin.Both groupings were large and socially significant and both contained genuine idealists.I don't know how to make this any simpler.

Please document precisely why you believe the Yellows 'pioneered' violence and intimidation. You are evidently well-read, so it should be no problem to summarize your views, with suitable references. I am particularly interested in the 'pioneered' aspect. It is my understanding that political violence is common throughout Thailand's history.

You are absolutely right and I apologise if you felt it necessary for me to clarify I was talking about recent Thai history (though the context made it plain).

The obvious antecedent was represented by the fascist groups and up country thugs mobilised in 1976 to terrorise the progressive and democratic student movement.The backers of these murderous thugs bear some startling similarities to the PAD/yellow movements backers at least in the early days.

There's plenty of reading material on all this available, but it's problematic to discuss in detail on this board.

[LawnGnome]

There's plenty of reading material on all this available, but it's problematic to discuss in detail on this board.

i.e. - I can talk the talk, but I can't walk the walk

[jayboy]

There's plenty of reading material on all this available, but it's problematic to discuss in detail on this board.

i.e. - I can talk the talk, but I can't walk the walk

I would have thought even the densest would have realised I was referring to forum rules.Apparently not.

[way2muchcoffee]

You are absolutely right and I apologise if you felt it necessary for me to clarify I was talking about recent Thai history (though the context made it plain).

The obvious antecedent was represented by the fascist groups and up country thugs mobilised in 1976 to terrorise the progressive and democratic student movement.The backers of these murderous thugs bear some startling similarities to the PAD/yellow movements backers at least in the early days.

There's plenty of reading material on all this available, but it's problematic to discuss in detail on this board.

No need to apologize. I didn't realize that you were going back to '76 in your reference. I understand and accept the 'problematic' aspects certain topics. No need to delve into those here. So then, who from 1976 is now active in the PAD today?

PM sent as inquiry.

[jayboy]

I understand and accept the 'problematic' aspects certain topics. No need to delve into those here. So then, who from 1976 is now active in the PAD today?

PM sent as inquiry.

But it's precisely the link between the backers (note rather than active participants on the streets) of fascist thuggery in 1976 and more recently the PAD movement (at least initially:the position is much ambiguous now) thats "problematic".

I'll provide reading suggestions tomorrow by PM but I fear it will be mainly book recommendations.Frankly I don't do much historical research on the web

[Insight]

What a tangent