Honda Pcx

[alexth]

Just noticed that a new Honda model is out; the Honda PCX. How is it? Anyone tried it out? Looks pretty nice from the pictures

[BSJ]

From the colour scheme and stylish body work they will appeal to all the cute girlies. But as for mum 'n' dad 'n' the kids they may find the seat uncomfortable. Plus you can't carry much shopping!

[alexth]

The trunk seems big enough, unless you're not planning to carry an entire farm with you

[LivinLOS]

Poster on here said he was going to test ride one on Sunday but no followup report.

Poster on GT-R says they are on sale in hua hin..

Not seen in the local honda on Phuket.

[katabeachbum]

Poster on here said he was going to test ride one on Sunday but no followup report.

Poster on GT-R says they are on sale in hua hin..

Not seen in the local honda on Phuket.

tryed to get one in Phuket town yesterday, but all they had was an internet picture 70k

[LivinLOS]

Dont suppose you asked if the airblade was selling at the 'high season' price of 69k did ya ??

[katabeachbum]

Dont suppose you asked if the airblade was selling at the 'high season' price of 69k did ya ??

na didnt. but I hope they still do, since my gf wants to sell her 4 months old at only 60k

[Robinsons]

Poster on here said he was going to test ride one on Sunday but no followup report.

Poster on GT-R says they are on sale in hua hin..

Not seen in the local honda on Phuket.

Yeah,the Testride Poster is back now

Saturday i called again to the Dealer in phukettown:

sorry sir it was an misunderstanding,its a praesentation only for honda dealers in a Phuket town hotel,but monday you can make your testdrive for sure...

Ok,today i was in phukettown by the dealers shop,him has 2 black/brown PCXI 125 in the show room now.

Testdrive?can not sir,only for show,no drive,Big Boss has said.

But maybe friday we get one pcxi,special for everybodys testdrive...

The Manager told me the price would be roundabout 75000.-Baht

For the the moment i dont have anymore interesting about bying a pcx125i....

...because it looks same a plasticegg,and to expensive and no nice colours.

Maybe I will wait for the new Nuovo with more cc and fuel injection

sorry for my poor english!

Robinsons

[pete600]

Poster on here said he was going to test ride one on Sunday but no followup report.

Poster on GT-R says they are on sale in hua hin..

Not seen in the local honda on Phuket.

Yeah,the Testride Poster is back now

Saturday i called again to the Dealer in phukettown:

sorry sir it was an misunderstanding,its a praesentation only for honda dealers in a Phuket town hotel,but monday you can make your testdrive for sure...

Ok,today i was in phukettown by the dealers shop,him has 2 black/brown PCXI 125 in the show room now.

Testdrive?can not sir,only for show,no drive,Big Boss has said.

But maybe friday we get one pcxi,special for everybodys testdrive...

The Manager told me the price would be roundabout 75000.-Baht

For the the moment i dont have anymore interesting about bying a pcx125i....

...because it looks same a plasticegg,and to expensive and no nice colours.

Maybe I will wait for the new Nuovo with more cc and fuel injection

sorry for my poor english!

Robinsons

Thought you would be lucky to get a testride. I called in to Yamaha in Patong to have a testride of a 2nd hand x1r. No chance the girl says, engineer says bike ok not need to test

[nikster]

Thought you would be lucky to get a testride. I called in to Yamaha in Patong to have a testride of a 2nd hand x1r. No chance the girl says, engineer says bike ok not need to test

LOL! TIT classic, I have to say.

Test driving is something new in Thailand. Apparently, in the days of old, you would go to your Honda or Toyota dealer, choose the model you like, pay, and _then_ get in it for the first time. But that's changing fast of course...

I'd be interested in a PCX. Was test driving the Scoopy-i here recently and wasn't very impressed. I feel like the Fino rides nicer. Technologically the scoopy-i is more advanced, of course. The PCX has some fancy fuel saving features I'd like to know more about.

[jackcorbett]

If Honda is really getting into 70 k baht territory with the coming PCX 125, it stands poised to lose some serious market share here in Thailand. Yamaha from the time I'd first gotten interested in motorcycles were more performance orientated than Honda. Take a look at two "ancient models" from both companies. Note first the ratings at Bikez for the 1973 Yamaha RD 350 Bikez ratings of 1973 350 RD Yamaha Then look at the ratings for the 1973 Honda 350 CB 1973 Honda CB 350 Pictured is the 1973 Honda CB

First off, the Yamaha 350 RD developed 39 horsepower way back then. It was a two stroke whereas the Honda was a four stroke developing 36 horsepower. It was bikes such as these that ran companies such as Triumph, BSA and Norton into hopeless decline because they were much cheaper, more reliable, and offered roughly the same performance level as those British 650's, and in the case of the Yamaha was every bit as fast. As I recall both machines were selling for about $1000 back in 1973. Looking at the CPI for both 1973 and 2009 the consumer price index has gone up 5 times. So one should figure that both Yamaha and Honda should be able to offer at least this much machine in 2009 for $5000. But both the coming 250 HOnda two stroke and the Kawasaki Ninja are selling for around 140,000 baht which is about $4300 today.

Now, the 350 RD Yamaha got poor fuel economy back then because it was a two stroke. But I'll wager that either bike was a better all around performer than either the current Ninja 250 or the coming Honda 250. Both have upright comfortable riding positions and both have long seats providing comfort for two.

So Honda's going to do a little price gouging and think that cutting edge technology is going to justify that? There must be a reason why the head man at my local Honda dealer told me 1. I think Yamaha Nouvo will be coming out with a 150 and 2. Honda is number one (in sales) in Thailand now but I think in the future Yamaha will be very dangerous for Honda."

Yamaha has actually had fuel injection for some time now but it's been in its manual transmission Spark, not the Nouvo Elegance. In fact it had liquid cooling and the 135 c.c. engine in the Spark before it had either in the Nouvo so it was only a matter of a short time that it would have these goodies in its top of the line Nouvo model. So one can expect to see fuel injection in the Nouvo Elegance soon. Also Honda has two automatics in this category, the 125 PCX i that's coming to Thailand soon and the 150 models that are currently being marketed in the U.S. and other places. So it would be a natural for Yamaha to be introducing a 150 c.c. automatic to compete against Honda's 150's in these markets. So, the Honda dealer's prediction that Yamaha will be introducing a 150 here in Thailand makes sense.

So what then? Honda will be offering a 125 PCXi that according to certain web sites will be selling for 70,000 baht, around 18,000 baht more than the current Nouvo 135 c.c. Elegance. And if Yamaha offers a still newer Nouvo Elegance which produces 150 cc's while offering fuel injection, particularly if it seriously undercuts Honda in price, what will happen to Honda market share then? WE are now talking 25 c.c's difference then. This would put the Nouvo in an entirely different category performance wise and even more capable of going cross country. And as for being able to save gas while at stoplights because the engine of the PCXi shuts down, I'd much rather have the extra performance of that extra 25 cc's than a little better fuel economy from city driving. Besides, Yamaha can always put in a slightly bigger fuel tank to give its new bikes increased range. So according to this scenario Yamaha will be replaying ancient History with its latest Nouvo Elegance offerings really tromping Honda's butt performance wise in the same measure that its old 350 RD kicked Honda's butt back in the early 1970's. Once again Honda will be expected to get better fuel economy but this time it won't do it decisively.

Edited December 1, 2009 by jackcorbett

[LivinLOS]

There must be a reason why the head man at my local Honda dealer told me 1. I think Yamaha Nouvo will be coming out with a 150 and

With the elegance new out I really dont see another model coming down the pipe.

[b19bry]

Bought a Black PCX today for 71k on the road

First impressions are it's a very smooth comfortable ride and the brakes are great. I had reservations about the looks but it looks a lot better in the flesh than in the pictures.

The idle stop works flawlessly.

[Spoonman]

Bought a Black PCX today for 71k on the road

First impressions are it's a very smooth comfortable ride and the brakes are great. I had reservations about the looks but it looks a lot better in the flesh than in the pictures.

The idle stop works flawlessly.

How does the Hybrid part of it work ??

[JoePai]

More info Here

[b19bry]

Bought a Black PCX today for 71k on the road

First impressions are it's a very smooth comfortable ride and the brakes are great. I had reservations about the looks but it looks a lot better in the flesh than in the pictures.

The idle stop works flawlessly.

How does the Hybrid part of it work ??

That's the idle stop part. when you get to traffic lights or stop the engine will cut out after a few seconds. Then when the lights turn, just open the throttle and off you go ! Saves gas while your stopped but I don't think that's really a hybrid is it ?

You can turn the idle stop feature off if you want.

[nikster]

Bought a Black PCX today for 71k on the road

First impressions are it's a very smooth comfortable ride and the brakes are great. I had reservations about the looks but it looks a lot better in the flesh than in the pictures.

The idle stop works flawlessly.

How does the Hybrid part of it work ??

That's the idle stop part. when you get to traffic lights or stop the engine will cut out after a few seconds. Then when the lights turn, just open the throttle and off you go ! Saves gas while your stopped but I don't think that's really a hybrid is it ?

You can turn the idle stop feature off if you want.

I guess hybrid is just sales talk then - easier sell than idle stop

When you are in idle stop mode and hit the throttle, how quickly does the bike start moving and how quickly does the engine turn on? Is the engine on instantly? Is there a short wait where you stand still? Or - and that would be hybrid - does the bike start moving on battery, then the engine kicks in?

[nikster]

More info Here

Cool.

Here's the meat of that article:

The PCX is equipped with a newly developed low-friction, water-cooled, 4-stroke, single-cylinder 125 cc engine, achieving excellent fuel economy of approximately 50km/liter (ECE 40 MODE). The “idling stop system,” which automatically stops the engine when the motorcycle comes to a temporary stop, was adopted to improve fuel economy (except for the U.S. model.) In addition, PCX conforms with Thailand’s Emission Standards at level 6 as well as the current exhaust emission standards in Japan, Europe and the U.S. with Honda’s electronic fuel injection system (PGM-FI*1) and a catalyst device (catalyzer) installed in the muffler.

Moreover, PCX will be the world’s first 125 cc model which will be equipped with the ACG starter which combines a cell motor and alternating current generator and helps achieve the compact engine size and significant reduction of starting noise.

So it does have a special starter motor - very interesting. I also have to admit I am sold on the styling. Looks great.

The only thing not completely convincing is the 50km/l rating - my Wave 125i gets that, or nearly that, too. And it's 5 years old now. Granted, it doesn't have much power and it's not automatic.

[ttakata]

Great synopsis jackcorbett, I've always felt Yamaha is a more performance oriented company as well.

Strange thing, Honda is a better market success worldwide because it's reputation for good reliability, comfort, and fuel economy.

I guess the common non-enthusiast wants those things more than performance.

If I had to get an automatic scooter today I would still get an Nouvo Elegance (NE) because it has a larger engine and a good deal of storage.

It really depends on the overall gearing ratios to know which of the two would be quicker off the line but since the NE has 10cc more than the PCX, I'd guess the NE may prove faster.

I always want a faster bike just so I have that extra freedom to avoid the slower bikes and pass cars easier; theoretically making it safer to ride.

Don't get me wrong, I love the fuel injection of the PCX and the shutoff system.

So the big thing with the PCX is the fuel savings, but I wonder if the average person here would bother to figure out what that means.

That 18,000 Baht price difference between a PCX and NE is equal to ~545 liters at 33BHT/liter.

For a taxi rider it may make good sense since he fills up a few times a week.

I only ride a tankful every week or two so it would take me 2 years before I start seeing any financial advantage.

If Yamaha can make a bike with the 150cc FI and the same overall size of the NE for ~70,000BHT, then Honda is definitely losing marketshare.

The 25cc difference between my friend's 110cc Click and my NE is night and day.

Right now the NE is the King of automatics but I don't see too many on the road probably because it is at the high end of the automatic price market.

My Yamaha (Phanon Yothin) dealer told me Honda has 70% marketshare of the Thai market and I've read Honda is the most respected brand of any brand in this country.

I'm sure this near monopoly reputation is what gives Honda confidence to set the price so high.

18,000 baht is such a big jump, I think Honda may have intentionally planned to not sell many and consider the PCX a status icon in the automatic market.

Just like in the big bike market, competition improves the industry.

I'm looking forward to a 150cc automatic with alloys wheels, LED lights, lots of storage, fuel injection, and the auto shutoff.

It can all be done today, but I think the brands take little steps to bleed the market as much as possible.

If they threw in tire pressure monitors, ABS, traction control, alarms, and GPS; then no one would need to buy a new bike again.

This is partly why the auto industry is suffering, cars simply last longer and give us what we need.

Keeping in style is now a major force for buying a new car, not reliability (unless you buy an American POS).

It will be a sad day when we all drive the same perfect vehicle.

I'll have to rattle can mine primer black, lay up a shag carpet interior, roll on 32" spinners with rock crawler tires, and bolt an espresso maker onto the winch

Edited December 1, 2009 by ttakata

[b19bry]

When you are in idle stop mode and hit the throttle, how quickly does the bike start moving and how quickly does the engine turn on? Is the engine on instantly? Is there a short wait where you stand still? Or - and that would be hybrid - does the bike start moving on battery, then the engine kicks in?

The bike moves and the engine turns on instantly, there is no delay whatsoever, I guess cos the engine is low-friction as per the sales blurb ? It's truly impressive and no there's no battery motor to get the bike moving.

On initial starting the engine turns over very easily and quietly compared to a normal bike, so the low-friction motor is probably key to this.

The styling is much better in real life than I'd expected and has drawn a fair bit of attention in just the afternoon I've ridden it.

[Spoonman]

Just as i thought, its a swanky starter motor with a shut down/restart feature.....

Wonder what this Hybrid thing was that guy in the other thread was harping on about is ???

[katabeachbum]

Just as i thought, its a swanky starter motor with a shut down/restart feature.....

Wonder what this Hybrid thing was that guy in the other thread was harping on about is ???

Hybrid was just a fantasy, or lack of tecnical knowledge. Where would the hybrid battery be, hybrid elctro engine, and adding how much weight?

Start and stop electronics on a motosai is interesting though, only 30 years after Audi did it in Europe on cars. But who cares about fuel. any scooter runs almost for free

[Spoonman]

Hybrid was just a fantasy, or lack of tecnical knowledge. Where would the hybrid battery be, hybrid elctro engine, and adding how much weight?

I coudnt see it being a hybrid from day one but Richard-BKK kept spouting that it was over various threads, seems its official now, it is no Hybrid.

[jackcorbett]

Don't get me wrong, I love the fuel injection of the PCX and the shutoff system.

So the big thing with the PCX is the fuel savings, but I wonder if the average person here would bother to figure out what that means.

That 18,000 Baht price difference between a PCX and NE is equal to ~545 liters at 33BHT/liter.

For a taxi rider it may make good sense since he fills up a few times a week.

I only ride a tankful every week or two so it would take me 2 years before I start seeing any financial advantage.

Correct me then if my figures are wrong. 545 liters is equal to 144 gallons. This is a worse case scenario because I really don't fuel up quite this often. But say I fuel up twice a week and each time I have one gallon of gas put in my Nouvo Elegance. At 52 weeks a year, that's 104 gallons. It's going to take me 1.4 years to use 144 gallons. So if it cost me zero for fuel to drive the Honda PCXi it would take me 1.4 years to recover my cost of driving my horrendously expensive fuel gulping Yamaha Nouvo Elegance. But.....that engine stopping feature at stop lights in reality will only provide me with a partial fuel savings. Say the Honda 125 PXI is 10 % more fuel efficient than my Yamaha Nouvo Elegance. It will therefore take me 14 years of driving to recover the cost difference between the two machines. And it the Honda gets 20 % better fuel economy it will only take 7 years to pay for it over the much less expensive Yamaha Nouvo. Also, I live in Pattaya where the driving is city driving. For someone living in a rural area where there are no stoplights the gas savings due to the shut off feature of Honda will amount to zero.

Uh....No thanks. Also, I'm wondering whether or not the Yamaha Nouvo Elegance wasn't already beating Honda's Air Blade in the fuel economy department before Honda came out with programmed fuel injection. I'd say my new Nouvo Elegance with its significantly greater power over my old 115 c.c. Nouvo Elegance is more fuel efficient. From reading the specs on the new Elegance it's got a carburetor to be sure, but it's also got something called a throttle body sensor which reputedly provides better fuel efficiency. My old Nouvo MX didn't have this. The question is why it does now? The 135 c.c. Nouvo Elegance also has Nikasil linings in the cylinder which has lower friction. Does this result in slightly improved fuel economy also? It could be Honda had to put programmed fuel injection in their Air Blades just to catch up. Also..let's talk real world here. The Air Blade only has a 4 liter fuel tank. The Nouvo has a 4.8 gallon fuel tank. So even if the Honda delivers as much as 20 percent better fuel economy in its programmed fuel injected Air Blade it will still only have the same range as the Nouvo Elegance due to its larger fuel tank. So the driver won't even see that difference of 20 % if it exists in the first place.

The PCX i looks good to my eye though and its new technology is appealing. It's going to be interesting to see what Yamaha pulls out of its sleeve now.

Edited December 2, 2009 by jackcorbett

[katabeachbum]

Don't get me wrong, I love the fuel injection of the PCX and the shutoff system.

So the big thing with the PCX is the fuel savings, but I wonder if the average person here would bother to figure out what that means.

That 18,000 Baht price difference between a PCX and NE is equal to ~545 liters at 33BHT/liter.

For a taxi rider it may make good sense since he fills up a few times a week.

I only ride a tankful every week or two so it would take me 2 years before I start seeing any financial advantage.

Correct me then if my figures are wrong. 545 liters is equal to 144 gallons. This is a worse case scenario because I really don't fuel up quite this often. But say I fuel up twice a week and each time I have one gallon of gas put in my Nouvo Elegance. At 52 weeks a year, that's 104 gallons. It's going to take me 1.4 years to use 144 gallons. So if it cost me zero for fuel to drive the Honda PCXi it would take me 1.4 years to recover my cost of driving my horrendously expensive fuel gulping Yamaha Nouvo Elegance. But.....that engine stopping feature at stop lights in reality will only provide me with a partial fuel savings. Say the Honda 125 PXI is 10 % more fuel efficient than my Yamaha Nouvo Elegance. It will therefore take me 14 years of driving to recover the cost difference between the two machines. And it the Honda gets 20 % better fuel economy it will only take 7 years to pay for it over the much less expensive Yamaha Nouvo. Also, I live in Pattaya where the driving is city driving. For someone living in a rural area where there are no stoplights the gas savings due to the shut off feature of Honda will amount to zero.

Uh....No thanks. Also, I'm wondering whether or not the Yamaha Nouvo Elegance wasn't already beating Honda's Air Blade in the fuel economy department before Honda came out with programmed fuel injection. I'd say my new Nouvo Elegance with its significantly greater power over my old 115 c.c. Nouvo Elegance is more fuel efficient. From reading the specs on the new Elegance it's got a carburetor to be sure, but it's also got something called a throttle body sensor which reputedly provides better fuel efficiency. My old Nouvo MX didn't have this. The question is why it does now? The 135 c.c. Nouvo Elegance also has Nikasil linings in the cylinder which has lower friction. Does this result in slightly improved fuel economy also? It could be Honda had to put programmed fuel injection in their Air Blades just to catch up. Also..let's talk real world here. The Air Blade only has a 4 liter fuel tank. The Nouvo has a 4.8 gallon fuel tank. So even if the Honda delivers as much as 20 percent better fuel economy in its programmed fuel injected Air Blade it will still only have the same range as the Nouvo Elegance due to its larger fuel tank. So the driver won't even see that difference of 20 % if it exists in the first place.

The PCX i looks good to my eye though and its new technology is appealing. It's going to be interesting to see what Yamaha pulls out of its sleeve now.

i v got Airblade PGM Fi and yammy Elegance in my garage. Elegance has much better range, even if it doesnt have a huge 4,8 gallon fueltank as you say, it shure has much larger fueltank than airblade.

[jackcorbett]

i v got Airblade PGM Fi and yammy Elegance in my garage. Elegance has much better range, even if it doesnt have a huge 4,8 gallon fueltank as you say, it shure has much larger fueltank than airblade.

Yamaha's already got fuel injection on its Spark. If I were Yamaha this is what I'd do. First off, I'd completely ignore Honda's latest innovation, the stop start feature of the engine that saves fuel at traffic lights. If I could gain fuel economy by putting fuel injection in the Nouvo Elegance I would. I'd then introduce it with a 150 c.c. engine. I'd go with slightly larger tires. the tires are rated at 16-70/80 in the front and 16/80/90 in the back. In fact I've been thinking of going with the 80 width for my front tire and the 90 for my back. This would give Yamaha as fat a tire as the Air Blade already has, and I could do the same. And the 16 inch wheel offers more centrifugal force giving the Yamaha more straight line stability. I'd then put in a larger fuel tank.....say in the 6 liter range. What is important is the new Yamaha would seem to be much more fuel efficient than the 135 c.c. Elegance I already have---even if it isn't.

Fuel injection would give Yamaha equal bragging rights to Honda and Suzuki. But Yamaha would also have 25 cc's more engine. That could be decisive. I"d bill it as a breakaway machine that completely walks all over Honda in the performance department. And I'd undercut Honda in price. I think this would make serious inroads in Honda's market share.

Edited December 2, 2009 by jackcorbett

[katabeachbum]

i v got Airblade PGM Fi and yammy Elegance in my garage. Elegance has much better range, even if it doesnt have a huge 4,8 gallon fueltank as you say, it shure has much larger fueltank than airblade.

Yamaha's already got fuel injection on its Spark. If I were Yamaha this is what I'd do. First off, I'd completely ignore Honda's latest innovation, the stop start feature of the engine that saves fuel at traffic lights. If I could gain fuel economy by putting fuel injection in the Nouvo Elegance I would. I'd then introduce it with a 150 c.c. engine. I'd go with slightly larger tires. the tires are rated at 16-70/80 in the front and 16/80/90 in the back. In fact I've been thinking of going with the 80 width for my front tire and the 90 for my back. This would give Yamaha as fat a tire as the Air Blade already has, and I could do the same. And the 16 inch wheel offers more centrifugal force giving the Yamaha more straight line stability. I'd then put in a larger fuel tank.....say in the 6 liter range. What is important is the new Yamaha would seem to be much more fuel efficient than the 135 c.c. Elegance I already have---even if it isn't.

Fuel injection would give Yamaha equal bragging rights to Honda and Suzuki. But Yamaha would also have 25 cc's more engine. That could be decisive. I"d bill it as a breakaway machine that completely walks all over Honda in the performance department. And I'd undercut Honda in price. I think this would make serious inroads in Honda's market share.

Hondas market share is made of Waves and Clicks. Airblade is small numbers, and the PCX will be too.

For yammy it was Mio and is Fino. Nouvo is small in numbers, and moving it upmarket in price with larger injection engine would make the numbers even smaller.

Farang places the figures are some different, but still.

[nikster]

When you are in idle stop mode and hit the throttle, how quickly does the bike start moving and how quickly does the engine turn on? Is the engine on instantly? Is there a short wait where you stand still? Or - and that would be hybrid - does the bike start moving on battery, then the engine kicks in?

The bike moves and the engine turns on instantly, there is no delay whatsoever, I guess cos the engine is low-friction as per the sales blurb ? It's truly impressive and no there's no battery motor to get the bike moving.

On initial starting the engine turns over very easily and quietly compared to a normal bike, so the low-friction motor is probably key to this.

The styling is much better in real life than I'd expected and has drawn a fair bit of attention in just the afternoon I've ridden it.

I already like the styling from the pix only - sufficiently futuristic, yet cute.

Thanks for the explanation with the low friction starter - very cool indeed. And quiet, I'd think. I'd probably buy it just for that. Not because I will save money 2 years down the road, but because I like high tech. It's about time they made a new engine.

If you want to save every last baht, buy a 5 year old Honda Wave 125i. Will last forever, good fuel economy, and cheap. In fact, I might have one for sale soon

Who buys a motorbike on price only, or any vehicle?

Edited December 2, 2009 by nikster

[Spoonman]

Who buys a motorbike on price only, or any vehicle?

I do, for 71k i can buy a new Click and still have change for atleast 30 short times down Soi 6.

[b19bry]

I already like the styling from the pix only - sufficiently futuristic, yet cute.

Thanks for the explanation with the low friction starter - very cool indeed. And quiet, I'd think. I'd probably buy it just for that. Not because I will save money 2 years down the road, but because I like high tech. It's about time they made a new engine.

If you want to save every last baht, buy a 5 year old Honda Wave 125i. Will last forever, good fuel economy, and cheap. In fact, I might have one for sale soon

Who buys a motorbike on price only, or any vehicle?

I'm very happy with it so far, can't wait to get the first 1,000km out the way. It's vastly superior to the Click I was riding and also feels much much better than a year old Airblade I tried.

It has a feeling of comfort and quality about it more so than other bikes I saw and the engine is much smoother and quieter at least on startup. Like you I don't buy on price alone.