Why The Big Problem

[naka]

We all see this sort of thing everyday.

The shopkeeper using a calculator to subtract 55 baht from a 100 to get the change.

The report in the local English language newspapers where a sum, often in US dollars is quoted and the writer has “helpfully” added in brackets the Baht

equivalent … sometimes way, way off the mark, and these writers are supposed to be

“Professionals”.

[AndyW]

I've seen bar staff using calculator on bar bills, but do it all in their head when playing darts. Maybe they're told they must use the calculator - if they screw up, they have to pay....

[pnustedt]

The shopkeeper using a calculator to subtract 55 baht from a 100 to get the change.

Often this is due to a language problem - the shopkeeper may not be too sure of how to say fourty five, so shows it on the calculator. It is common all over Asia when serving a Westerner.

[buadhai]

I bought two cans of Chang and an ice cream bar last night. 45 baht. The shop clerk used a calculator to figure change from a 100 baht note....

[Neeranam]

I think on the whole Thai people are better than those in the UK at adding/subtracting. Inthe Uk, they have tills.

Calculators are cheap too here.

I often have a great laugh on Sukhumvit asking how much the vendors calculators are, when they stick the bloody thing in my face, or when buying something else, they cannot keep the calculator out there hands. I learned quickly how to say in Thai, unless you put that calculator down, I ain't buying buggerall.

[lopburi3]

Believe pnustedt answer about calculator is correct. They never use with the Thai wife but always use for me.

As for the newspaper I find the Bangkok Post to be wrong more than right but put it down to a mix of proof readers (or do they have any?) mixing up the decimal place. As an American often find it hard to read large numbers from Europe where they seem to use commas at places we would use a period so can understand at a place where both are used errors could be made. But still think it happens all too often.

[jayenram]

It's not only Thailand. I was in Texas a few years ago with a collegue. We asked for 2 motel rooms and the 60+ year old receptionist used a calculator to multiply $24.00 x 2.

[qwertyuiop]

It's not only Thailand. I was in Texas a few years ago with a collegue. We asked for 2 motel rooms and the 60+ year old receptionist used a calculator to multiply $24.00 x 2.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I too am not convinced that this problem is a "thai" one. The mass use of calculators has had an impact on mental arithmatic skills in my opinion.

I also agree that here in LOS it is often used to make clear the price for us farangs.

In Shanghai I have seen them using an abacus to work out total charge for goods- impressive faster than a calculator

[Neeranam]

I don't think itn has anything to do with the language, although of course they have them in the tourist areas.

I think it is worldwide.

They use them for Thais too.

[Gary A]

My ex Thai wife had a degree in accounting and she needed a calculator to add two sets of numbers. I don't think they teach them basic arithmetic.

[lampard10]

The problem with Thais and calculators is that they actually believe the total amout however crazy. An instance recently one of my staff calculated on the machine that 45 mins on the inter-net at ฿90 p/h came to ฿370. And the customer was asked for that amount. Yesterday my wife,who is quite intelligent added up three bills on the calculator each of around ฿3,000 and the answer came to ฿2,116. She just shrugged her shoulders and wrote that amount down. She knew it was wrong,but the calculator said it was right,so it must be right. This is in fact a main reason for overcharging ( and undercharging) here in Thailand.

[Thetyim]

It gets worse.

I checked out of a hotel after staying 7 days but instead of multiplying the daily rate by seven she had to do six additions.

How difficult is 7 x 1000 ??

[siamesekitty]

I think the calculator is there to help prevent mistakes. Sure, everybody knows that 100-55=45, but at the end of a long day doing all these additions and subtractions you might end up with 55 or whatever your poor tired brain comes up with.

It's also there to make the amount clear for a farang, but also to show Thais as well sometimes, people sometimes need visual confirmation.

But from my studies in the States and in Thailand, I think Thai students actually depend on the calculator less than the American kids. In the U.S. you can actually bring a calculator into the classroom during a test, while here, no way. Gotta do it all on your own. (I'm referring to elementary school and high school here, not accounting/finance/engineering classes in college.)

I have no defense for Thetyim's and lampard's stories though

[naka]

The shopkeeper using a calculator to subtract 55 baht from a 100 to get the change.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Often this is due to a language problem - the shopkeeper may not be too sure of how to say fourty five, so shows it on the calculator. It is common all over Asia when serving a Westerner.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In my experience, when someone does a mental calc, they then just hand over the

change without feeling the need to tell you how much it is !

Naka

[RDN]

At the checkouts in Big C and Tesco, I always have some small change ready because I always pay cash. So if the bill comes to 865.25 baht, I give the girl a 1,000 baht note plus 5.25 baht in change. I love the way the look on her face changes from "puzzled" after I give her the money, to "oh, I understand" when the till says "140.00".

Of course, if the till says "160.00", I sometimes get a 50 baht note and 10 baht coin .

[naka]

At the checkouts in Big C and Tesco, I always have some small change ready because I always pay cash. So if the bill comes to 865.25 baht, I give the girl a 1,000 baht note plus 5.25 baht in change. I love the way the look on her face changes from "puzzled" after I give her the money, to "oh, I understand" when the till says "140.00".

Of course, if the till says "160.00", I sometimes get a 50 baht note and 10 baht coin .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Luv It

[petedk]

I too am not convinced that this problem is a "thai" one. The mass use of calculators has had an impact on mental arithmatic skills in my opinion.

I agree. I think the problem is with the new generation and not just here in Thailand. I lived in Denmark for many years and have seen people using a calculator to calculate something as easy as 2 x5.

Many (and I mean many) years ago I worked in a bar in England and sometimes a "round" consisted of up to 10 different drinks. I calculated the price in my head and when the customer came back for the next round he was surprised that it cost the same. Maybe I couldn't do the same now. I think it's a question of practice.

[PeaceBlondie]

I taught matayom 1 math last year, and several of my 12 and 13 year olds were near geniuses in math. During the last month, I called P-P to the board to do a difficult linear equation. We're standing nose to nose at the board (he was still 12 but very tall) and he's counting off the numbers for a simple addition problem on his fingertips! Under my breath so the others can't hear, I say, "P-P, you are a genius at math - you can do those numbers in your head much faster!" but he was still tied to his fingertips.

[RDN]

In England, I put quite a bit of the blame on decimalisation of the currency (1970?). When there were 12 pence to the shilling and 20 shillings to the pound, and a half-crown was 2 shillings and 6 pence, so there were 8 half-crowns to the pound, and we had 4 thruppeny bits to the shilling, and two sixpenny bits...... everybody had to know their 3, 4, 6, 8, 12 and 20 times tables. You knew how many pence there were in 2 and 6, and when you bought a packet of cigs for 1 and 10 pence halfpenny, you knew to expect 7 pence halfpenny change from half a crown. Blame the politicians!

Don't know what the excuse is for Thailand though .

PS. Decimalisation also did nothing for History. All coins showing the old kings and queens of England were phased out.

[buadhai]

At work (now retired, yipee!) I often had to do simple currency sums. When I found myself always reaching for a calculator I made the conscious decision to stop that and do the sums in my head instead. It ended up being faster in the long run and I enjoyed the exercise. But, still it required some mental effort? What is it that makes people want to avoid that effort?

[Abandon]

Try asking university students in Thailand what 4 - 6 is.

[Gleen_tea]

I once bought a TV set at an official Sony showroom at The mall. It was 27,995 baht. I handed the sales clerk 28,000 baht and he used his calculator to calculate the difference.

[PeaceBlondie]

It's always been easy for me to manipulate numbers in my head. I sold life insurance, calculated life insurance cash values, decided which tax returns would create additional revenue if we audited them, and spent five years doing nothing but calculating the most difficult income tax results. Calculators and computers operate on GIGO - garbage in, garbage out. If a person can't think in their head, it's hard to function in a lot of jobs. I doubt that Thais have less math 'intelligence' at birth than farang have. I do question the quality of their math education.

[astral]

It is not just the education, it is the educators.

They don't understand either, so what hope is there.

The skills have been watered down over the years

and Thailand is not alone in this.

Consider this document from the UK.

Maths

The little set of problems below, origin unknown, seek to underline the inability of most people born in the last 30 years to do simple arithmetic. More to the point, it lays the blame squarely with the people doing the teaching and setting the tests.

Someone has taken the time to update it in the post-Enron world.

Here, then, is the evolution of mathematics teaching and testing over the last half century.

1950. A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is four-fifths of the price. What is his profit?

1960. A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is four-fifths of the price, or $80. What is his profit?

1970. A logger exchanges a set ‘L’ of lumber for a set ‘M’ of money. The cardinality of set ‘M’ is 100. Each element is worth one dollar. Make 100 dots representing the elements of set ‘M’. The set ‘C’, the cost of production contains 20 fewer points than set ‘M’. Represent the set ‘C’ as a subset of set ‘M’ and answer the following question: What is the cardinality of the set ‘P’ of profits?

1980. A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is $80 and his profit is $20. Your assignment: Underline the number 20.

1990. By cutting down beautiful forest trees the logger makes $20. What do you think of the way he is making a living? Topic for class participation after answering the question: How did the forest birds and squirrels feel as the logger cut down the trees? There are no wrong answers.

2002. A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production was $120. How does Arthur Anderson determine a profit margin of $60?

[chico]

It is not just the education, it is the educators.

They don't understand either, so what hope is there.

The skills have been watered down over the years

and Thailand is not alone in this.

Consider this document from the UK.

Maths

The little set of problems below, origin unknown, seek to underline the inability of most people born in the last 30 years to do simple arithmetic. More to the point, it lays the blame squarely with the people doing the teaching and setting the tests.

Someone has taken the time to update it in the post-Enron world.

Here, then, is the evolution of mathematics teaching and testing over the last half century.

1950.  A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100.  His cost of production is four-fifths of the price.  What is his profit?

1960.  A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100.  His cost of production is four-fifths of the price, or $80.  What is his profit?

1970.  A logger exchanges a set  ‘L’ of lumber for a set ‘M’ of money. The cardinality of set ‘M’ is 100.  Each element is worth one dollar.  Make 100 dots representing the elements of set ‘M’.  The set ‘C’, the cost of production contains 20 fewer points than set ‘M’.  Represent the set ‘C’ as a subset of set ‘M’ and answer the following question:  What is the cardinality of the set ‘P’ of profits?

1980.  A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100.  His cost of production is $80 and his profit is $20.  Your assignment:  Underline the number 20.

1990.  By cutting down beautiful forest trees the logger makes $20.  What do you think of the way he is making a living?  Topic for class participation after answering the question:  How did the forest birds and squirrels feel as the logger cut down the trees?  There are no wrong answers.

2002.  A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100.  His cost of production was $120.  How does Arthur Anderson determine a profit margin of $60?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's a real good one! Although I thought AA is out of business since the Enron-case?

Generally, for Thailand, have to agree with pnu and lop, most of them do it to show us the figure, rather than speaking it!

But the roots are deeper!

Those, who went to school in the fourties and fifties, certainly remember that we didn't have calculators, ar any similar help, therefore we had to learn to do it in our heads.

Later generations have been growing up with calculators, never trained their brain, and are not able to use it in that way!

In some jobs, it is certainly safer also, especially when doing a lot of calculating all day long, do use a machine!

[sezzo]

The problem with Thais and calculators is that they actually believe the total amout however crazy. An instance recently one of my staff calculated on the machine that 45 mins on the inter-net at ฿90 p/h came to ฿370. And the customer was asked for that amount. Yesterday my wife,who is quite intelligent added up three bills on the calculator each of around ฿3,000 and the answer came to ฿2,116. She just shrugged her shoulders and wrote that amount down. She knew it was wrong,but the calculator said it was right,so it must be right. This is in fact a main reason for overcharging ( and undercharging) here in Thailand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thats probably why I paid bugger all for the million or so beers I had at your fine establishment last weekend.

Thanks Martin

[mbkudu]

It is not just the education, it is the educators.

They don't understand either, so what hope is there.

The skills have been watered down over the years

and Thailand is not alone in this.

Consider this document from the UK.

Maths

The little set of problems below, origin unknown, seek to underline the inability of most people born in the last 30 years to do simple arithmetic. More to the point, it lays the blame squarely with the people doing the teaching and setting the tests.

Someone has taken the time to update it in the post-Enron world.

Here, then, is the evolution of mathematics teaching and testing over the last half century.

1950.  A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100.  His cost of production is four-fifths of the price.  What is his profit?

1960.  A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100.  His cost of production is four-fifths of the price, or $80.  What is his profit?

1970.  A logger exchanges a set  ‘L’ of lumber for a set ‘M’ of money. The cardinality of set ‘M’ is 100.   Each element is worth one dollar.  Make 100 dots representing the elements of set ‘M’.  The set ‘C’, the cost of production contains 20 fewer points than set ‘M’.  Represent the set ‘C’ as a subset of set ‘M’ and answer the following question:  What is the cardinality of the set ‘P’ of profits?

1980.  A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100.  His cost of production is $80 and his profit is $20.  Your assignment:  Underline the number 20.

1990.  By cutting down beautiful forest trees the logger makes $20.  What do you think of the way he is making a living?  Topic for class participation after answering the question:  How did the forest birds and squirrels feel as the logger cut down the trees?  There are no wrong answers.

2002.  A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100.  His cost of production was $120.  How does Arthur Anderson determine a profit margin of $60?

That's a real good one! Although I thought AA is out of business since the Enron-case?

Generally, for Thailand, have to agree with pnu and lop, most of them do it to show us the figure, rather than speaking it!

But the roots are deeper!

Those, who went to school in the fourties and fifties, certainly remember that we didn't have calculators, ar any similar help, therefore we had to learn to do it in our heads.

Later generations have been growing up with calculators, never trained their brain, and are not able to use it in that way!

In some jobs, it is certainly safer also, especially when doing a lot of calculating all day long, do use a machine!

I hate to say it, but the same thing is happening to children and teenagers regarding computers and writing. Everything is typed now and spell checked so students, and adults too for that matter, are losing the ability to write with pen and paper and can't spell properly. When was the last time you received a hand-written letter?

[chico]

I hate to say it, but the same thing is happening to children and teenagers regarding computers and writing. Everything is typed now and spell checked so students, and adults too for that matter, are losing the ability to write with pen and paper and can't spell properly. When was the last time you received a hand-written letter?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

unfortunately you are right, but on the other hand, I wouldn't like to force someone to study encryptologie to enable him to read handwritten letters (including mine).

The main reason for writing a letter on the comp for me is the possibility, to write it fast, read and correct it easily, without rewriting it, as compared to planning it beforehand, making a draft, and then writing it.

[Abandon]

It's quite possible that many staff have been instructed to use a calculator every time. Not a bad policy really.

[RamdomChances]

Try asking university students in Thailand what 4 - 6 is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've tried this out on a few Thai friends.

My sister-in-law did some uni but did'nt finnish- Correct -2

Brother-in-law left schools at about 13 - wrong 2

My mate GF just about to finnish uni assistant teacher - Wrong 2

Farm worker 1, no High School - wrong 2

Farm worker 2, no High School - wrong 2

Farm worker 2, 2 years studing accounting - Correct -2 (luckly she manages the place when I'm not around)

Wife, finnished high school no uni, best answer "mai paw" (not enough)

Just as an aside my mother-in-law did'nt have any formal education I think and cant read or write, runs a shop and I've never seen her use a calculator or been wrong adding things up