Anyone Have Schindlers List With Thai Subs?

[Jingthing]

It's hilarious to think that people I have never even met feel uncomfortable with my existence and see me as a bad and lesser person based on my nationality and/or race. Not that it's surprising. This planet is filled with racists. To try and justify it somehow is hilarious. You can never justify racism. Ever. Think back to what happened in the US with the African Americans for hundreds of years or even to Nazi Germany. This kind of hate thought does nothing but fuel more hate and it doesn't end anywhere good. Germany now is a beacon in human rights, both in speech and in action. OP is a closet racist who needs to have some sense slapped into him. That's all there is to it.

OK, I think I underderstand why you feel that way.

I think calling it racism isn't quite right. The response is to the German nationality and culture. German is not a race.

However, you should also understand that there were historical events that instigated these feelings among some people. For some people, it is STILL too fresh (yes most of them are very old). I want to ask you a question. When I as a Jew toured around Germany in the 1970's, do you think I was racist for looking at the older Germans, who mostly would have had some involvement with WW2 (yes I know not all Nazis or SS, but still ...) and wondering to myself What did YOU do in the war? As anyone who would have been active in the war would now be 90ish years old, doing that anymore is now silly, but I really don't think it was then.

Edited December 4, 2009 by Jingthing

[dttk0009]

It's hilarious to think that people I have never even met feel uncomfortable with my existence and see me as a bad and lesser person based on my nationality and/or race. Not that it's surprising. This planet is filled with racists. To try and justify it somehow is hilarious. You can never justify racism. Ever. Think back to what happened in the US with the African Americans for hundreds of years or even to Nazi Germany. This kind of hate thought does nothing but fuel more hate and it doesn't end anywhere good. Germany now is a beacon in human rights, both in speech and in action. OP is a closet racist who needs to have some sense slapped into him. That's all there is to it.

OK, I think I underderstand why you feel that way.

I think calling it racism isn't quite right. The response is to the German nationality and culture and some very ugly historical events. German is not a race.

However, you should also understand that there were historical events that instigated these feelings among some people. For some people, it is STILL too fresh (yes most of them are very old). I want to ask you a question. When I as a Jew toured around Germany in the 1970's, do you think I was racist for looking at the older Germans, who mostly would have had some involvement with WW2 (yes I know not all Nazis or SS, but still ...) and wondering to myself What did YOU do in the war?

No, but passing judgement based on their nationality/race without talking to them IS racist, no matter how you want to sugar coat it. To say Germans aren't a race is like declaring that Jews aren't a race either. The term is applied loosely here and doesn't necessarily have to mean nationality or ethnicity, just a group of people. People of outside culture are married and integrated into Jewish faith on a regular basis and Germany is home to many ethnicities. The people who survived the war, for the most part, understand that it's almost 4 generations on now. I see a lot of bigotry from people who were uninvolved by the war personally and laying judgment on others who were equally as uninvolved. The fact that people need to be reassured that not all Germans were or even ARE Nazis, and the fact that I keep having to read that, makes me slam my head into my desk sometimes, because it implies the notion that WWII for the average German citizen was somehow a pleasant experience at the hands of the suffering of other. Most citizens lived in complete fear under the watchful eye of an oppressive government, and lost family and loved ones not only at the hands of their own military, but invading forces as well. Historical events and feelings are passed down generation by generation. That's why it took so long in the US to break the cycle of hatred that perpetuated against the African Americans. They had their reasons to hate them too. They seemed logical to them too. In the end, it's just racism.

You are right to hate those who were involved in the atrocities of the war. Everyone is. They deserve no mercy. But based on that fact rather than what their passport says.

Edited December 4, 2009 by dttk0009

[plasticpig]

To the Op

Most People from Thailand don’t give a sausage about what happened or happens outside of Thailand.

And half don’t give a sausage about what happened yesterday out side there own village.

Shame but TIT.

Please don’t stop eating German sausages or buying German cars.

That's just <deleted>, grow up.

BTW your wife will be board in 5min if she is asked to read sub titles.

Edited December 4, 2009 by plasticpig

[Jingthing]

It's hilarious to think that people I have never even met feel uncomfortable with my existence and see me as a bad and lesser person based on my nationality and/or race. Not that it's surprising. This planet is filled with racists. To try and justify it somehow is hilarious. You can never justify racism. Ever. Think back to what happened in the US with the African Americans for hundreds of years or even to Nazi Germany. This kind of hate thought does nothing but fuel more hate and it doesn't end anywhere good. Germany now is a beacon in human rights, both in speech and in action. OP is a closet racist who needs to have some sense slapped into him. That's all there is to it.

OK, I think I underderstand why you feel that way.

I think calling it racism isn't quite right. The response is to the German nationality and culture and some very ugly historical events. German is not a race.

However, you should also understand that there were historical events that instigated these feelings among some people. For some people, it is STILL too fresh (yes most of them are very old). I want to ask you a question. When I as a Jew toured around Germany in the 1970's, do you think I was racist for looking at the older Germans, who mostly would have had some involvement with WW2 (yes I know not all Nazis or SS, but still ...) and wondering to myself What did YOU do in the war?

No, but passing judgement based on their nationality/race without talking to them IS racist, no matter how you want to sugar coat it. To say Germans aren't a race is like declaring that Jews aren't a race either. The term is applied loosely here and doesn't necessarily have to mean nationality or ethnicity, just a group of people. People of outside culture are married and integrated into Jewish faith on a regular basis and Germany is home to many ethnicities. The people who survived the war, for the most part, understand that it's almost 4 generations on now. I see a lot of bigotry from people who were uninvolved by the war personally and laying judgment on others who were equally as uninvolved. The fact that people need to be reassured that not all Germans were or even ARE Nazis, and the fact that I keep having to read that, makes me slam my head into my desk sometimes, because it implies the notion that WWII for the average German citizen was somehow a pleasant experience at the hands of the suffering of other. Most citizens lived in complete fear under the watchful eye of an oppressive government, and lost family and loved ones not only at the hands of their own military, but invading forces as well. Historical events and feelings are passed down generation by generation. That's why it took so long in the US to break the cycle of hatred that perpetuated against the African Americans. They had their reasons to hate them too. They seemed logical to them too. In the end, it's just racism.

You are right to hate those who were involved in the atrocities of the war. Everyone is. They deserve no mercy. But based on that fact rather than what their passport says.

Jews are not a race.

I don't find your comparison to the African American experience in the US to Nazi Germany logical in any way, sorry.

I agree with you that anyone who looks at the history realizes that most Germans were victims of the Nazis themselves, in the same way Russians were the victims of Stalin. It must be a drag to have people look at you funny because you are German for no rational reason. This won't last forever of course, but that doesn't make it any more pleasant for innocent Germans who have to experience it.

Edited December 4, 2009 by Jingthing

[dttk0009]

To say Germans aren't a race is like declaring that Jews aren't a race either

Jews are not a race.

I'm not going to argue a technical and broad term.

If you hate Jews because they're Jewish you're racist.

If you hate Germans because they're German you're racist.

[Moonrakers]

To say Germans aren't a race is like declaring that Jews aren't a race either

Jews are not a race.

I'm not going to argue a technical and broad term.

If you hate Jews because they're Jewish you're racist.

If you hate Germans because they're German you're racist.

Racism/racist is quite a specific term and not a broad one at all. Do you believe that it will be racist to hate christians?

Edited December 4, 2009 by Moonrakers

[Jingthing]

To say Germans aren't a race is like declaring that Jews aren't a race either

Jews are not a race.

I'm not going to argue a technical and broad term.

If you hate Jews because they're Jewish you're racist.

If you hate Germans because they're German you're racist.

OK. However, the Nazis clearly saw Jews as a race and their ideology was rabidly racist. I really don't think that the Jews (I still think a minority) who still have a problem with modern Germans see Germans as a race, rather they see them as a specific NATIONALITY associated with Hitler's Germany. Very specific! There is a difference. In my view, a BIG difference. For example, in the general American population Germanic background is very common. Do you think the people who still have issues with Germans have anything against people of German background of OTHER nationalities (assuming they weren't runaway Nazis)? On the other hand, Nazis wanted to exterminate Jews of EVERY nationality. I think I have proven my point.

Edited December 4, 2009 by Jingthing

[dttk0009]

To say Germans aren't a race is like declaring that Jews aren't a race either

Jews are not a race.

I'm not going to argue a technical and broad term.

If you hate Jews because they're Jewish you're racist.

If you hate Germans because they're German you're racist.

OK. However, the Nazis clearly saw Jews as a race and their ideology was rabidly racist. I really don't think that the Jews (I still think a minority) who still have a problem with modern Germans see Germans as a race, rather they see them as a specific NATIONALITY associated with Hitler's Germany. Very specific! There is a difference. In my view, a BIG difference.

So what am I the target of then. Just sounds like racial discrimination if you boil it down to the point. There are Jews in who are German as well. Plenty of them, for that matter. How would OP feel about them? I think the dislike comes down to ethnicity, which in the end pretty usually defines your nationality anyway. Very few people, especially in Israel, still actively hold a grudge against Germans. I would feel safe traveling there. I wouldn't feel safe around OP, not that that should come as a surprise to anyone.

Edit- To your added point, how do you feel about Werner Von Braun or other Nazi scientists brought to America after the war and given instant complete forgiveness for their actions during the war? Naturally, if you have German heritage as an American you're not going to get lumped into the 'German' crowd, because you're not German. What about the Germans with African or Turkish heritage? I can't imagine them falling into the same bubble either. Is it just the Caucasians? The only thing this proves is that a lot has changed in the last 70 years and maintaining any sort of emotion connected to that era is usually completely off-base and not justifiable. Unless you were directly involved and that emotion is being projected at another individual or individuals who were also directly involved. I can't believe this argument is actually happening.

Edited December 4, 2009 by dttk0009

[Moonrakers]

So what am I the target of then.

You are a target of prejudism, not racism.

[Jingthing]

No, it is not racial discrimination. It is based on the history of your nation. It isn't rational for this to be directed at you or most all modern Germans because you had nothing to do with it.

Edited December 4, 2009 by Jingthing

[Birdman]

Germans were at that time cruel, but they did not invent cruelty. Nor did the British, the Mongols, the Hutu, Romans...just name 1 nation which never was cruel to themselves and/or to others in one way or in another.

Cruelty is a dark part of human nature. It comes with egoism, superiority fantasies, false handling of power, hate, nationalism...and complete lack of tolerance and compassion.

To fight that we have to start by ourselves, not by avoiding things which have nothing to do with the cause.

[dttk0009]

So what am I the target of then.

You are a target of prejudism, not racism.

Oh goodie, racism lite.

Jin - I still catch wind of it though, whether that's the intention or not. I understand that the severity and hatred against other groups of people is much stronger, and I'm sure this is something you have a much easier time relating to than me, unfortunately. In no way am I claiming that the discrimination, or prejudice, against Germans is in any way comparable to what is still being perpetuated against Jews and African Americans. But I mean if you saw a thread here on TV where OP said he wanted to show his GF mockumentaries about Israeli war crimes and Jewish banking conspiracies because she always wonders why he doesn't want to eat at Israeli restaurants and refuses to order hommus it would make your raise an eyebrow too.

[Moonrakers]

So what am I the target of then.

You are a target of prejudism, not racism.

Oh goodie, racism lite.

[Jingthing]

So what am I the target of then.

You are a target of prejudism, not racism.

Oh goodie, racism lite.

Jin - I still catch wind of it though, whether that's the intention or not. I understand that the severity and hatred against other groups of people is much stronger, and I'm sure this is something you have a much easier time relating to than me, unfortunately. In no way am I claiming that the discrimination, or prejudice, against Germans is in any way comparable to what is still being perpetuated against Jews and African Americans. But I mean if you saw a thread here on TV where OP said he wanted to show his GF mockumentaries about Israeli war crimes and Jewish banking conspiracies because she always wonders why he doesn't want to eat at Israeli restaurants and refuses to order hommus it would make your raise an eyebrow too.

Oh please ...

Banking conspiracies ... antisemitic myth/lies

Israeli war crimes ... yes they exist but there is no equivalency to what happened in Nazi Germany

Israeli restaurants ... there are only a few in Thailand, and if you really want hummus (I do!) its widely available in Arabic restaurants here

I have said numerous times I don't agree with the OP's feelings about modern Germans although Bina explained quite well how this kind of thing happens. Tolerance, understanding, and the passage of time will solve all this. But I find your analogy attempt totally silly.

That all said, I feel I have a good deal of understanding of where you are coming from, though I reject your charge of racism. As an American and a American Jew (which it is not safe for me to reveal to strangers who are Muslims) I have had the same kind of thing happen to me based on much fresher events. For example, visiting Kuala Lumpur the nice young lady in chador who was serving me at a minimart asked me about my country and I told her, and she practically spit in my face. If I had told her I was Jewish I wouldn't have been shocked if she called up her brother to shoot me. I didn't matter to her that at the time I was a vocal passionate opponent of the Bush war or that I have always strongly favored a Palestinian state. So this stuff of associations causing unfair reactions is real.

Edited December 4, 2009 by Jingthing

[mauGR1]

Germans were at that time cruel, but they did not invent cruelty. Nor did the British, the Mongols, the Hutu, Romans...just name 1 nation which never was cruel to themselves and/or to others in one way or in another.

Cruelty is a dark part of human nature. It comes with egoism, superiority fantasies, false handling of power, hate, nationalism...and complete lack of tolerance and compassion.

To fight that we have to start by ourselves, not by avoiding things which have nothing to do with the cause.

[Birdman]

Israeli restaurants ... there are only a few in Thailand, and if you really want hummus (I do!) its widely available in Arabic restaurants here

side note: You obviously have nether been to Koh Phangan.

[dttk0009]

So what am I the target of then.

You are a target of prejudism, not racism.

Oh goodie, racism lite.

Jin - I still catch wind of it though, whether that's the intention or not. I understand that the severity and hatred against other groups of people is much stronger, and I'm sure this is something you have a much easier time relating to than me, unfortunately. In no way am I claiming that the discrimination, or prejudice, against Germans is in any way comparable to what is still being perpetuated against Jews and African Americans. But I mean if you saw a thread here on TV where OP said he wanted to show his GF mockumentaries about Israeli war crimes and Jewish banking conspiracies because she always wonders why he doesn't want to eat at Israeli restaurants and refuses to order hommus it would make your raise an eyebrow too.

Oh please ...

Banking conspiracies ... antisemitic myth/lies

Israeli war crimes ... yes they exist but there is no equivalency to what happened in Nazi Germany

Israeli restaurants ... there are only a few in Thailand, and if you really want hummus (I do!) its widely available in Arabic restaurants here

I have said numerous times I don't agree with the OP's feelings about modern Germans although Bina explained quite well how this kind of thing happens. Tolerance, understanding, and the passage of time will solve all this. But I find your analogy attempt totally silly.

That all said, I feel I have a good deal of understanding of where you are coming from, though I reject your charge of racism. As an American and a American Jew (which it is not safe for me to reveal to strangers who are Muslims) I have had the same kind of thing happen to me based on much fresher events. For example, visiting Kuala Lumpur the nice young lady in chador who was serving me at a minimart asked me about my country and I told her, and she practically spit in my face. If I had told her I was Jewish I wouldn't have been shocked if she called up her brother to shoot me. I didn't matter to her that at the time I was a vocal passionate opponent of the Bush war or that I have always strongly favored a Palestinian state. So this stuff of associations causing unfair reactions is real.

Yeah, you're pretty much a double dip in that regard. In no way are we even on remotely even terms in this regard. The amount of verbal abuse I've gotten in my life has been minimal, and physical threats and violence even less (though it has occurred, I realize in general this is a non-event in the grand scheme of things). I can't tell you how many times I've been told that I'm 'genetically aggressive and evil', well ok not lots but I've been told

As moonraker cleared up, yeah, it's definitely a lot closer to prejudice than racism, that was my fault in misinterpretation.

[Jingthing]

Yeah, you're pretty much a double dip in that regard.

Triple dip, actually, being homosexual. Its weird knowing there are lots of people who think murdering me would get them to heaven quicker. A holiday in Iran is not on my agenda, which is too bad because I love their food and Persian men are hot. Bavarians aren't chopped liver either ...

Edited December 4, 2009 by Jingthing

[leftcross]

this thread is veering dangerously off course.

there are plenty of suggestions for documentaries on here, so thanks to everyone for the titles.

the suggestion from the german poster that i am a racist is extremely revealing. the nazis started the war as they believed germans were a specific race and that slavs, jews and poles etc were less than human and not deserving of life. their express aim was to expand the reich for the benefit of the ''german race''.

of course, germans are not a race so i am not a racist....but that method of thinking is very interesting and gives an insight into the character of that country.

im not sure what choosing to eat somewhere else is called.....the place was called EZ something or other and had german flags on the menu. i can take my business where i like, i have no intention of confronting any germans with my views or opinions in real life, i would simply go elsewhere.

[gvallee2]

what kind of retard boycotts Germany for something that happened before he was born, from people that are not alive anymore.

You don't see my boycotting british product because half of them in thailand are sexpats?

Every country has as many racists in them, thailand is one of them yet you chose to live and eat here?

farang kee nok #1?

Edited December 4, 2009 by gvallee2

[Jingthing]

I was raised to be uncomfortable about Germans but I consider it a growth experience to resist irrational conditioning. I was exposed to many hours of images of the death camps as a young child and that has an impact as the association is made with Germany. At this point, although of course I agree with never forget, I question whether young children should be exposed to those kinds of shocking death images.

Edited December 4, 2009 by Jingthing

[h90]

So what am I the target of then.

You are a target of prejudism, not racism.

Oh goodie, racism lite.

Jin - I still catch wind of it though, whether that's the intention or not. I understand that the severity and hatred against other groups of people is much stronger, and I'm sure this is something you have a much easier time relating to than me, unfortunately. In no way am I claiming that the discrimination, or prejudice, against Germans is in any way comparable to what is still being perpetuated against Jews and African Americans. But I mean if you saw a thread here on TV where OP said he wanted to show his GF mockumentaries about Israeli war crimes and Jewish banking conspiracies because she always wonders why he doesn't want to eat at Israeli restaurants and refuses to order hommus it would make your raise an eyebrow too.

Oh please ...

Banking conspiracies ... antisemitic myth/lies

Israeli war crimes ... yes they exist but there is no equivalency to what happened in Nazi Germany

Israeli restaurants ... there are only a few in Thailand, and if you really want hummus (I do!) its widely available in Arabic restaurants here

I have said numerous times I don't agree with the OP's feelings about modern Germans although Bina explained quite well how this kind of thing happens. Tolerance, understanding, and the passage of time will solve all this. But I find your analogy attempt totally silly.

That all said, I feel I have a good deal of understanding of where you are coming from, though I reject your charge of racism. As an American and a American Jew (which it is not safe for me to reveal to strangers who are Muslims) I have had the same kind of thing happen to me based on much fresher events. For example, visiting Kuala Lumpur the nice young lady in chador who was serving me at a minimart asked me about my country and I told her, and she practically spit in my face. If I had told her I was Jewish I wouldn't have been shocked if she called up her brother to shoot me. I didn't matter to her that at the time I was a vocal passionate opponent of the Bush war or that I have always strongly favored a Palestinian state. So this stuff of associations causing unfair reactions is real.

Well it is off topic and not Thailand related, but when Israel used Napalm bombs it didn't got good feedback at muslim countries.

I think the main problem is that people tend to put nationalities in boxes like:

all germans are nazis

all jews are greedy

all thai ladies are hookers

all arabs are lazy

I didn't build KZs (also not my grandfather) and you didn't drop the Napalm bombs. Some people just can't see the difference between countries and single person.

I know a lot people who boycott American and Israel products. Is it fair? I don't know!! If you don't buy the American steak or the Israel orange you may hurt a farmer who might be the kindest person an earth and not the criminal politician. And the replacement product may come from an even worse country.....

Or short version....I don't know what to do.....

[dttk0009]

Yeah, you're pretty much a double dip in that regard.

Triple dip, actually, being homosexual. Its weird knowing there are lots of people who think murdering me would get them to heaven quicker. A holiday in Iran is not on my agenda, which is too bad because I love their food and Persian men are hot. Bavarians aren't chopped liver either ...

dam_n, I imagine the trip must have been intense. Malaysia is still considered a moderate country though you could easily endanger your life and face the consequence of severe assault if you had been open about your sexual orientation or faith. Goes to show. As has been said, I don't want to take the thread off topic any further and we're heading into a direction that can easily cause this thread to result in a clash of trolls, partly because of things I said, so I'll stop with this train of thought from this post on.

I hope I didn't come across as too frantic or offensive. OP hit a nerve and I felt I had to say something. Most of my fellow countrymen are taught to stay quiet about stuff like this but I prefer to stand up and give the finger to bigotry, as dumb as it makes me look sometimes.

[Jingthing]

I think it is perfectly OK for modern Germans to speak up and say enough already, we had nothing to do with the war and we hate what the Nazis did too. But I really think you should reconsider your idea that irrational reactions to Germans are racism.

Malaysia isn't really a problem if you are discreet. I also like Turkey.

Edited December 4, 2009 by Jingthing

[jellymeister]

This post sounds like a complete wind up…..

I mean, anyone who wants to educate someone by watching Hollywood movies??????…..sounds more like de-education to me…..

Although some movies may be excellent and moving like the one mentioned, it is much better to learn factual information by reading some history books or encyclopedias……at the very least watch some documentaries……even then the source has to be considered.

OP, leave the good German beer, food, football, and camaraderie for the rest of us while you are self-righteously sulking in your own company and opinions…….

[Jingthing]

Get real. Most Thais are not very interested in western history. Most aren't going to watch nine hour Shoah (great film) or read textbooks about the holocaust. I think pop culture Schindler's List is a perfectly reasonable way for many everyday people to get some idea of what happened to the Jews during Nazi Germany.

Edited December 4, 2009 by Jingthing

[jellymeister]

Get real. Most Thais are not very interested in western history. Most aren't going to watch nine hour Shoah (great film) or read textbooks about the holocaust. I think pop culture Schindler's List is a perfectly reasonable way for many everyday people to get some idea of what happened to the Jews during Nazi Germany.

Yes you are right "to get some idea", however to "learn", I recommend actual study.....

[Bagwan]

I have every sympathy for latter day Germans who had no involvement in WW2. Any hostility towards them has been fed by historical inaccuracies much the same as contemporary newspapers who add warped opinions or slant facts to feed prejudices. Both American and British filmmakers are guilty of perpetuating myths. The total rubbish about the American ship capturing an Enigma machine from a damaged U-boat, which raised many hackles in the UK, is a fine example.

I recently downloaded the film 'Sink the Bismarck' and found parts of it hysterically funny and so unlike reality. The messdeck scenes as always were the product of over fertile minds. But I digress. In the film Admiral Lutjens was portrayed as an ardent Nazi zombie and my enquiring mind led me to research for details of him and his deeds. I found that he was never a member of the National Socialist party,in fact quite the contrary. He was one of the few prominent officers to protest about the excesses of 'krystallnacht'. Rather than being an ardent Nazi as portrayed (by a Czech actor who fled Germany in 1940 and made a career by playing sinister Germans), he was a quiet and thoughtful character. The Captain of the Bismarck returned the fire from the Hood and Prince of Wales against Lutjens orders on the grounds that he was not going to standby and having his ship shot from under him. It was that decision that led ultimately to the destruction of such a fine capital ship.

The history of conflicts is written by the victors and you can put the housekeeping money on it being a mendacious account. Little regard is paid to the atrocities and war crimes perpetuated against the Germans themselves. Such facts do not sell newspapers or put bums on seats in cinemas. I see no reason for contemporary German people not to be fully accepted as fully paid up members of the civilised world. I have found them to be industrious, innovative and supporters of true democracy. I have no problem in riding the Skytrain for which I thank Siemans, I had no qualms about purchasing 3 BMW's and all my power tools are made by Bosch. My life has been enriched by the works of Beethoven, Wagner, Bach and many other artists, writers and thinkers - and they lay on the Oktoberfest, the biggest and best beer festival in the world.

It is said that wars come about because old men disagree and thus many young men die. All the old men have long gone and we now live in a sort of harmony. Deal with it.

[Bagwan]

I have every sympathy for latter day Germans who had no involvement in WW2. Any hostility towards them has been fed by historical inaccuracies much the same as contemporary newspapers who add warped opinions or slant facts to feed prejudices. Both American and British filmmakers are guilty of perpetuating myths. The total rubbish about the American ship capturing an Enigma machine from a damaged U-boat, which raised many hackles in the UK, is a fine example.

I recently downloaded the film 'Sink the Bismarck' and found parts of it hysterically funny and so unlike reality. The messdeck scenes as always were the product of over fertile minds. But I digress. In the film Admiral Lutjens was portrayed as an ardent Nazi zombie and my enquiring mind led me to research for details of him and his deeds. I found that he was never a member of the National Socialist party,in fact quite the contrary. He was one of the few prominent officers to protest about the excesses of 'krystallnacht'. Rather than being an ardent Nazi as portrayed (by a Czech actor who fled Germany in 1940 and made a career by playing sinister Germans), he was a quiet and thoughtful character. The Captain of the Bismarck returned the fire from the Hood and Prince of Wales against Lutjens orders on the grounds that he was not going to standby and having his ship shot from under him. It was that decision that led ultimately to the destruction of such a fine capital ship.

The history of conflicts is written by the victors and you can put the housekeeping money on it being a mendacious account. Little regard is paid to the atrocities and war crimes perpetuated against the Germans themselves. Such facts do not sell newspapers or put bums on seats in cinemas. I see no reason for contemporary German people not to be fully accepted as fully paid up members of the civilised world. I have found them to be industrious, innovative and supporters of true democracy. I have no problem in riding the Skytrain for which I thank Siemans, I had no qualms about purchasing 3 BMW's and all my power tools are made by Bosch. My life has been enriched by the works of Beethoven, Wagner, Bach and many other artists, writers and thinkers - and they lay on the Oktoberfest, the biggest and best beer festival in the world.

It is said that wars come about because old men disagree and thus many young men die. All the old men have long gone and we now live in a sort of harmony. Deal with it.

[Jingthing]

I have every sympathy for latter day Germans who had no involvement in WW2. Any hostility towards them has been fed by historical inaccuracies much the same as contemporary newspapers who add warped opinions or slant facts to feed prejudices. Both American and British filmmakers are guilty of perpetuating myths. The total rubbish about the American ship capturing an Enigma machine from a damaged U-boat, which raised many hackles in the UK, is a fine example.

I feel your tone goes too far and implies a kind of rationalization for the Nazis. Yes, history is written by the winners. But that doesn't change the facts about what Hitler did and that doesn't change the historical reality of the holocaust.

http://www.ushmm.org/

Edited December 4, 2009 by Jingthing