The Thai Half-arsed Way Of Doing Things

[way2muchcoffee]

asked for 1000bht B5 at the fuel pump noticed it reading 1100bht and got him to stop. He they proceeded to tell me (who had been standing by the filler because they can't work out how to open it, if they can even find it! I kid u not*) "you said tem tank!" Now he had double checked me before inserting the nozzle so I had said, "B ha, Neung Pan" twice in front of 3 of his co workers. Did this mean anything to him? Noooooo he just ranted, "u must pay, I no have money" even though I had been speaking to him in thai. If he'd simply concentrated on this fairly simple task it would not have been a problem. I paid my 1000bht and left they said police, I said, "kwam kit dee" (good idea). I will later return the 121 baht of diesel I left without paying for. I won't charge them for the labour of extracting it from the tank.

You must be joking. Really? So you took the extra 100 bt in petrol, refused to pay for it, and forced a laborer to pay out of pocket a half day wages? Unbelievable. It's 100 bt mate. Virtually nothing to you, but a heck of a lot to a poor laborer. There was no principled stand here.

Edited December 10, 2009 by way2muchcoffee

[Mosha]

When we were talking to our builder, I mentioned I wanted a Farang style bathtoom. Hot water shower flush toilet etc. My wife told me he understood. We were living with my wife's daughter and could see hour house from there. I walked down one day to check on progress. They were in the bathroom. There before my eyes was everything I didn't want. A small trough at the side of the where the toilet was going. A 3/4 finished trough for the mozzies to breed in. Also used as a dip for the showers.

The door maker was another farce. We were recommended to go to a certain shop. Picked the doors out of a brochure. We were told we very busy, they will be ready in a month. Well after 6 weeks we went back, and they hadn't started them. Everytime we went back it was a different excuse. Eventually it got to the stage we had a finished structure with no doors or windows. At one stage I told the owner of the business. If you were in a Western country you would be out of business by now. She asked why, and I told her she would not get any custom if this is how they went on. That seemed to amaze her. After 6 months we got our doors, as we paid up she said to me "You will tell your friends about us won't you?" Voice dripping with sarcasm Isaid. "You can be sure I'll tell everyone about you." "Oh thank you very much." As we got in the car I said to my wife."I'll tell everyone because I don't want anyone to go through what we did with her." To make matters worse we were with a friend in another door/window frame supplier. The exact same doors we had were piled high in that shop.

[PeaceBlondie]

^ but those medieval castles are still standing, as are the pyramids.

As are Mayan temples - in hot jungles where and when they invented zero, corn, potato, chiles and a calendar, without the wheel or horses, and our ancestors shivered for 1500 more years.

///added: the myth of Sociology 101, 'stupid Southern people' started with Max Weber's Protestant Work Ethic - very 19th century.

[MrHammer]

^^^

Doesn't compare though. No-one lived in those temples, same as Angkor or the Pyramids. The European castles on the other hand were functional for living and a testament to the great craftmanship that has been passed down to this day.

[ArthurPewty]

In my mind it boils down to the idea of non-confrontation. Thais know that they can deliberatly do the worst job or slack off and still nobody will say a word. I have seen many things that make me want to point and say "That's her! The lazy cow that cheated and lied." but that would put me in the wrong.

[yabaaaa]

^ but those medeaval castles are still standing, as are the pyramids.

And Stonehenge just lumps of rock.

[Samuian]

^ but those medeaval castles are still standing, as are the pyramids.

So the Ruins of Ayuttaya, Sukhotai, Angkor Wat, Taj Mahal, Borobodur... to name a few!

Here, western ISO codes are simply not really necessary!

For many of the builders coming from very simple backgrounds, Bamboo housing or very simple wood and concrete construction, basically 4 walls, a couple of windows, a door and that is it.

I know there are companies how build adhering to western style building codes but they also know what quality work is worth.

So stop the rant and go on, next time employ some company which will give a warranty on it's work done.

[doggie888888]

Societies in warm weather climates are considerably different than those in temperate climates. A whole different pace to life. It's not genetic, it's not nationalistic.

In the case of Australia, where you can have tropical, sub-tropical and temperate climates at the same time of year (example 25 - 30C in Northern Queensland and Northern Territory and snow down south all in the same month), society doesn't differ much at all. Activities obviously do.

OH YES IT DOES....ever lived in Darwin? If they were any more laid back, they'd all drop over. It's the heat that makes everyone slow down, very sensible I think

Societies in warm climates evolved differently from colder climates. Isn't culture shaped by the environment? In Thailand and much of SEAsia, there were no severe winters, the forests and seas were bountiful, most seeds you throw on the ground will grow and provide shade, fruit and building material with little care required because it rains a lot, it's warm., it's humid...ooh I feel drowsy just thinking of it! There is a commonality amongs all SE Asian indigenous cultures of malaise, mai-bpen-rai and come-what-may attitudes. Whoever quoted Singapore forgets that the indigenous Malays there have long been "colonised" by the overseas Chinese from a more temperate climate with a DIFFERENT (neither better nor worse) evolved culture to deal with famines, winters, natural disasters and competition from a billion starving mouths. "Mai bpen rai" is matched by "tidak apa" in Malay/Indon. I am sure the Filipinos have a word too.

All of the above DOES NOT mean the indigenous cultures of SE Asia are lazy, stupid, half arsed, incapable of of graduating from a university in the West or adapting to a Western work place. It just means they have different priorities and in Thailand, your standards are not a priority for many Thais.

Perhaps the foreigners from the temperate zones are the half arsed ones incapable of adapting to a slower pace here which is better suited to deal with heat and humidity? Example: why do you need a European house (read: hot box during the midday heat which requires 24 hours air conditioning to be comfortable and so "well built" that it retains heat well after the sun has set) when a traditional Thai wooden structure surrounded by shade trees and slightly raised to capture the breeze can be so deliciously cool?

I am just loathe to go to someone else's country as a NON IMMIGRANT and see fit to critisise and label, when really all I need is a good dose of self assessment to establish reasons why I am unable (or unwilling?) to adapt to the host country's culture and be a little more respectful of the differences. Yes, in many instances Thailand cannot deliver to your first world standards but you are not in the first world, are you? And you are not paying first world prices, are you?

Ultimately here are the choices: if Thais are not interested in delivering what I want in Thailand, should I stay and adjust my expectations, patiently do some training or just pack and go home? Asking the Thais to adapt to me in their home country is more effort than it is worth and besides, it's bad form for any guests to ask that of their hosts.

Don't end up with the Anna Leonowens syndrome. Even she packed up and went home!

[SaikoIsaan]

Having worked offshore and overseas with quite a few Thai tradesmen I'm often horified at the quality of the work performed in Thailand by builders and repairman.. I've asked the guys I work with about it.. Their reply was that anyone who is any good at what they do.. or wants to work hard is working either offshore, overseas or for a big company in Bangkok where they have a chance of promotion and a decent pay level..

So when 'Somchai the builder' comes round to your house in his beaten up 10 yr old Isuzu you know you are only getting the leftovers... He's working locally cos either he's too lazy to get a decent job or he doesn't have the required skills, experience or drive to work for a decent wage with a decent company..

This isn't just in Thailand.. Motivated, hard working and skilled people often move, relocate or look for better oppotunities... The leftovers and lazy stay behind.. Why work for 200 baht a day as a welder when you can make 5000 USD a Month offshore or overseas.. (admittedly no everyone is able to or wants to go away to work) but this gives some idea why there seems to be a skills shortage... It's not just working overseas.. The big building companies, shopfitters and maintenance companies usually hire the cream.. The local coyboy building co gets the rest..

And as has been said before.. How does someone who has never had hot water in their house or a flush toilet become a plumber ?

One other thing is nobody seems to specialise.. Can you tile ? ''Yes'' Can you do plumbing ''Yes'' can you do electric work '' Yes''... ''Jack of all trades, master of none''

Very well said...

[Jezz]

its really not that complicated... you pretend to pay them and they pretend to work

And if you really pay them....well, don't worry....they'll still pretend to work.

I'm having a "new" house built under an existing wooden house on stilts. The first batch of materials delivered consist of lorry loads of rubble, shingle, sand, 50 bags of concrete, steel rods, planks of wood cut fresh from an old log on site (just for the edging when he lays the concrete floor) a battered mixing trough and various sundry items. The builder should have started this week, but someone died in his village so he can't start until next week. It's going to be interesting watching him do everything by hand - even mixing the concrete and making blocks. But it's all for a fixed price so I have to be patient. He reckons about a month!

[wintermute]

^^^

Doesn't compare though. No-one lived in those temples, same as Angkor or the Pyramids. The European castles on the other hand were functional for living and a testament to the great craftmanship that has been passed down to this day.

You realize the vast majority of castles have been rebuilt, reinforced, or completely redesigned from when they were originally built? Wars, catastrophes, etc.. have all effected them.

[PeaceBlondie]

I visited a nobleman's castle at the ruins of Palenque, Chiapas, Mexico. Workmen's homes there and at Teotihuacan,El Tajin and Angkhor Wat were bamboo. Those places were built without a wheel or an engine.

[Scott]

Again, societies in temperate climates are different that those in equatorial zones. My reference said nothing about them being inferior--just different. The pyramids weren't built before the first winter snowfall, that's for sure.

In much of Thailand, but not all, there really isn't much concern for weather. Water is the significant problem. There aren't really big wind storms and certainly not tornadoes. Earthquakes exist, but they are relatively small (thank God). The ground doesn't freeze and frost damage and buckling aren't a problem. So standards will vary.

The social structure and work habits are different as well. Training is largely lacking although experience may be there. Work habits are quite laid back, unless there is direct supervision. So there is no assurance of quality.

Most westerners have 'expectations' of what they will get. Those expectations may prove a great disappointment.

[PattayaParent]

^ but those medeaval castles are still standing, as are the pyramids.

So the Ruins of Ayuttaya, Sukhotai, Angkor Wat, Taj Mahal, Borobodur... to name a few!

Key word when we're talking about quality of workmanship.

[whichschool]

It likely excludes Singapore and some places like it were people have learned to think... However learning to think is not something you learn out of the air... In addition many foreigners

have adjusted too well to these circumstances...

Interesting. So where do people learn to think? Where to people think the most?

This post amounts to just another Thai basher. You're basically saying that Thais don't think.

They may not think the same way you do.

Of course they think, the problem is they dont question when something is done wrong or how to do something better.

As for the reference to living in hot cliamates, isnt California the wealthiest state in America, whereas the Mexicans are bordering on becoming a failed state, more to do the superior work culture and ethics then the weather.

[IMA_FARANG]

If you are going to have slaves then manage them accordingly, bring back an overseer with a whip.

Remember that scene from Ben Hur where Judah is in the slave galley and the overseer says Ramming Speed and the drummer picks up the beat? Those boys were lashed and off they rowed. You didn't see those Romans passing out refreshing beverages, or leading a robust sing song did you? No molly coddling and the job got done. One can't be nice to these people as they are expendable chattel.

Oh sure, you'll recoil in disgust and my Swiftian approach, however, if one is not willing to hire on quality staff and pay them accordingly, then ye shall reap as ye sow. There are plenty of well built structures in Thailand because the owners invested in quality and supervision. Ever look at some of the principal structures of western foreign missions? Someone knew what he or she was doing.

About 2 years ago I purchased (through my Thai wife, in case you're wondering) a house. It needed quite a bit of repair work.

My Thai wife made sure the crew working on it had a very clear idea of what she wanted...and then supervised the project on just about a daily basis.

Additionaly she managed to get her son hired to work on the project.

Between her and my son the house was renovated to be what they wanted.

On some points she had to compromise...but usually because the foreman showed her a better or cheper way to get what she wanted.

It is where I hope I will spend the rest of my days in Bangkok after I retire next year.

And it is where my wife and her family will live.

And now the son is also being offered occasional jobs as a worker on other renovation projects by that contractor.

So it is possible without the use of whips, it really is.

[bina]

Thais do not have a monopoly when it comes to "half arsed way of doing things" and/or laziness. Just ask the many people here who have used farang builders after being lulled into a false sense of comfort by advertisements of "European managed bla bla" to give the impression farang builders do at least have some minimum standards

well: my best friend just came out of psychiatric unit after having a nervous breakdown parcipitated by the fact that for the past two years she has been building a house built on her moshav; and every stupid mistake that could be made, was.

the sewage for the toilets dead ended. the electric wiring had to be redone. the cabinets, made by a carpenter to measure out of very expensive but ecological wood were ruined by the wrong finish . the dish washer that was supposed to be a built in was put in at a strange angle so the water doesnt go wher eits supposed to. the grey water doesnt go to the garden, the salon windows have noticable differences in height, and like most israeli building companies, the company went 'bankrupt' in the middle, changed all the owrkers, managers and suppliers so floors dont match in colour (varying shades)... a real nightmare.

the house was supposed to be finished after a year by contract. only now it is finishing. two years later. with some work still not complete. and its a very small house. not a large villa.

this is only a small sample of friends that i know of that have done renovations or built houses. here, everyone says 'oh, its the middle east. corruption from the builders and the suppliers on supplies from over the border for half price and no quality, etc....'. standard complaints.

OTH , a thai worker friend of ours here has built himself a water tight cabin with electricity but no plumbing (bathroom is in other caravan) by taking apart those wooden platforms that are used with forklifts (not sure what it is called in english), taking out the nails, and slowly building his wooden house from recycled doors, window sills, roofing etc. its a buautiful cabin with wooden floor. ok, its not hi so architecture. but it is good solid workmanship.

. israelis dont know how to build a wooden house if their life was dependant on it. thais are probably better at building wooden buildings w/o using nails and things (hubby's fathers house is built this way. no metal. its all that special way of joining wood toegher so the house can be moved if needed, like many thai teak house were in the past.

i hae my own theories about that special breed called 'building supervisor', and 'building company owner'. here in israel, mostly its only arabs that do tile laying, and cement work. jewish carpenters. and mostly any building work is splapdash. my kitchen window is at an angle to my wall. the salon has a curve in part of the wall (how that happened i havent a clue). we always say: when u build a house here, u have to stand there 12 hours a day and check every single little thing from the screws (make sure its not from over the border and will break after a few months) to the cement (adding too much water) to the amount of insulation. i have pigeouns living in my attaic because of some stupid cheapskate that didnt close off all the roof openings and i wasnt able to supervise (that was supposed to be job of ex husband at the time...).

so my friend who had the nervous break down is an ex doctor and extremely pedantic. therefore the nervous breakdown.

i find that my thai husband complains alot about shoddy workmanship done in things that he knows and is familiar with. oth, he doesnt give two hoots about my antique chair and used it as a ladder cause 'old furniture is just that, old furniture. antique doesnt mean much to an isaan man'. but woe to anyone that touches any kitchen utensils or doesnt clean or sharpen them properly.

i also found ot that a girl that works with me has a brother (israeli) in ko samui as a project manager in building. he speaks thai so that he can speak to a worker straight, and not thru half arsed translations that change the 14 to 40 and the width to the height.

point being is that people that work in a profession like building/carpentry/tileing etc are usually those that were exposed to that as a child, or apprenticed and therefore learned as a profesison. most thai workers dont have money to buy /pay for outside workers so they do it themselves, therefore they are a bit of jack of all trades but masters of non. but if soeone takes the time to provide training, not snobby attitudes of 'we know better then u' , but real solid short term training, most thai do apply what they learn and do like to do a good job. the majority of builders in thailand are those from poor backgrounds that probably didnt finidh high school, so to sit through lots of classroom time doesnt interest them (my husband is a good example of this) but good job should be interpreted as in what is improtant to a thai.

my duaghter (studying child development recently) was very impressed with the way the young thai l children were able to draw and colour intricate pictures with minute detail, because that is what is important ot thais. i met someone's husband (wont say who from this board) who builds mini models of thai houses that are amazing in their detail and preciseness. they take hours and hours of using mini tools and shaving, sanding and glueing pieces to make movable parts. and they are all to scale.

here in israel there are rallies this past week because without thai hands, crops are being left to die on the vine. these same thai dont just rip tomatoes off the vine, they remove the tomatoes w/o doing damage to the plant or other fruit onthe plant. they do the irrigation including the computerized stuff, al the mechanical stuff, the wrapping, packing, sorting, general maintainence, welding. they do it much better then workers we can get locally who disappear every two minutes to smoke a cigaretter or speak on the cell phone or want a coffee break or cant be bothered so throw parts of equiptment away so they get the job 'finished' faster....

[guiddo99]

Forum rules: "8) Not to post extremely negative views of Thailand or derogatory comments directed towards all Thais."

this whole thread reeks of negativity towards THAIS!

[PeaceBlondie]

Too much. CLOSED.