Once You Start To See Thai Society For What It Is

[bonobo]

Quite funny as well though, they inevitably blame all and everyone except themselves.

Believe it or not, I used to write a column dealing primarily with cross-cultural relationships (despite both my ex and myself being US) in a magazine for divorced/widowed people.  I had one guy from Tennessee who kept writing me.  He lived in a trailer with his mother (honest!).  He knew American women were no good and made bad wives.  His proof?  Well, since he had been married five times and divorced them all, he had the experience to know that.  And now he was not too sure about Russian women as he had married two of them and divorce them as well!

Of course, as he was obviously the perfect husband, it was all about the nationalities of his seven ex-wives.  

[siggie2]

This may have been you (and some others) experiences, and i feel bad for you, but dont assume that about everyone. If a woman has a negative experience with a man from the west, does that make all western men the same? If a woman has MANY negative experiences with men..she should probably start questioning as to why this is happening. I see the flip side of the "all western women are bad, Asian women are my dream" type thinking, where a man may get stung by a Thai girl(s) and suddenly they are disillusioned with Thai women also. Some women in the west make great partners, some dont. Same here. Same with the men. I honestly hope that the men who come here as a "retreat" in some way, learn to let go of this way of thinking.

The problem is, Eek old girl, the the western legal system enables any woman with children to behave in that way. I would like to suggest that many women in the west are pressed into the 'taking everything they can' by their solicitors and their friends, they don't need to be 'bad' by any means, they do it because they can. I don't particularly care what one woman does, but merely point out that EVERY woman can do this if she has children. Of course more and more women are taking this action when they get fed up or bored with their partners (they don't even need to be married).

Men in the western world with a partner and children under 19 essentially have no property rights of any sort, it can all be taken from them in a very short space of time.

In the UK

step 1

Woman goes to police and says man is dangerous and mentally cruel

A court order will be issued within 14 days without the man knowing, evicting him from the house. No evidence is required by the woman, her word is good enough.

step 2

Tell the court the man is likely to harm his children, this will prevent him having contact with them for the foreseeable future.

step 3

file for divorce on grounds of unreasonable behaviour. Within 6 months the house will be assigned into the womans sole possession.

During the process dial 999 every time you see the man and report him for stalking, this will ensure he has a criminal record and will be held in jail while questioned.

See how easy that is!

No evidence is required in family court in the UK.

Thai women are learning this from other thais who know the law better,believe me,i was asked to help,but i was disgusted by this demeaning act.This goes all the way to Thailand,so more thai women are hitching up with uk guys to rape the system.One thing very consistant with thai women,they all learn quick.

Guys pick the right one else you get raped of your money same as any society,luckily my marriage cost me half of everything WE owned,this was with a westerner.I had no problems with this,other than living with a woman who had one kid and ballooned in weight,and even her mates didnt recognise her in a few years.

[ozzieovaseas]

This may have been you (and some others) experiences, and i feel bad for you, but dont assume that about everyone. If a woman has a negative experience with a man from the west, does that make all western men the same? If a woman has MANY negative experiences with men..she should probably start questioning as to why this is happening. I see the flip side of the "all western women are bad, Asian women are my dream" type thinking, where a man may get stung by a Thai girl(s) and suddenly they are disillusioned with Thai women also. Some women in the west make great partners, some dont. Same here. Same with the men. I honestly hope that the men who come here as a "retreat" in some way, learn to let go of this way of thinking.

The problem is, Eek old girl, the the western legal system enables any woman with children to behave in that way. I would like to suggest that many women in the west are pressed into the 'taking everything they can' by their solicitors and their friends, they don't need to be 'bad' by any means, they do it because they can. I don't particularly care what one woman does, but merely point out that EVERY woman can do this if she has children. Of course more and more women are taking this action when they get fed up or bored with their partners (they don't even need to be married).

Men in the western world with a partner and children under 19 essentially have no property rights of any sort, it can all be taken from them in a very short space of time.

In the UK

step 1

Woman goes to police and says man is dangerous and mentally cruel

A court order will be issued within 14 days without the man knowing, evicting him from the house. No evidence is required by the woman, her word is good enough.

step 2

Tell the court the man is likely to harm his children, this will prevent him having contact with them for the foreseeable future.

step 3

file for divorce on grounds of unreasonable behaviour. Within 6 months the house will be assigned into the womans sole possession.

During the process dial 999 every time you see the man and report him for stalking, this will ensure he has a criminal record and will be held in jail while questioned.

See how easy that is!

No evidence is required in family court in the UK.

Thai women are learning this from other thais who know the law better,believe me,i was asked to help,but i was disgusted by this demeaning act.This goes all the way to Thailand,so more thai women are hitching up with uk guys to rape the system.One thing very consistant with thai women,they all learn quick.

Guys pick the right one else you get raped of your money same as any society,luckily my marriage cost me half of everything WE owned,this was with a westerner.I had no problems with this,other than living with a woman who had one kid and ballooned in weight,and even her mates didnt recognise her in a few years.

Well said mate, its got me beat why any guy would get married these days, considering all the eventual possibilities you've mentioned above.Its just not worth it.

About time we realized we are not much better than the rest of the animal kingdom and i dont see to many species entertaining the thought of trying to keep the same partner for life.Its not natural.

It might have worked in our grandparents day but the attitude of both sexes overall has pretty much gone down the crapper since then.

and dont get me started on the issue of marrying thai women

[sbk]

Three stages to life in Thailand

1.Thailand is paradise, the people are wonderful everythign is perfect.

Disillusion sets in and then you hit stage 2. Thailand is awful, Thai people are horrible, its a hel_l on earth

and finally stage 3, which some people never reach: Thailand is just a place, like any other, with good and bad people like everywhere else.

SBK you are spot on, as usual too.

I am a bit more into stage three, but occasionally vacillate between all three.

Lately the farangs I work with have been MUCH more a problem than the Thais.

Go figure.

Yes SBK is correct. I would add though that an important part of getting past Stage two is to understand and acknowledge to yourself that youwill always be a 2nd class citizen here so get over it. Many foreigners here become hung up on the little reminders you get that this isn't your country. Once accepting it as a nice place to live but with certain irritations moving on to stage three not a problem

I am not Thai, never will be Thai. I have lived here 20 years and am about as adapted as you can get (better be or you go crazy, and since I am only marginally insane, I guess I've done alright) and yet I still understand that I am not a Thai person and that I will always be my husband's foreign wife.

Either you live with it or you leave. But banging your head against the brick wall is only going to give you a headache and won't have an effect on the wall whatsoever.

[dptbkk]

I am not Thai, never will be Thai. I have lived here 20 years and am about as adapted as you can get (better be or you go crazy, and since I am only marginally insane, I guess I've done alright) and yet I still understand that I am not a Thai person and that I will always be my husband's foreign wife.

Either you live with it or you leave. But banging your head against the brick wall is only going to give you a headache and won't have an effect on the wall whatsoever.

Couldn't agree more. Unless you can change your appearance to look like a Thai, you'll never be accepted / treated as a Thai. I'm fortunate enough to speak Thai pretty well - to the extent that if a Thai person can't see me, they quite often think I'm Thai. Then they see me, or ask for my name if it's a phone call, and suddenly I'm a falang who can phuut Thai chat maak.

But so what? Why would anyone want to be treated like your average Thai anyway?

Foreigners sometimes get a raw deal here - again, so what. Westerners still get treated better than most Thais, and most of the time when we don't get treated as well as we'd like, we're still usually getting treated no worse than the 'average Thai', whoever he or she may be.

20 years ago I used to work with one of the sons of Dr Puey Ungphakorn. Dr Puey's wife was a Brit, and the kids looked pretty Western, particularly Peter, the guy I worked with. It didn't matter at all that he was Thai, spoke Thai fluently and without any accent, and was the son of a very prominent academic and bureaucrat - almost every Thai who didn't know him assumed he was a foreigner. I asked Peter once if it bothered him: he told me that he'd stopped worrying about it long ago and just accepted that was the way things were.

So, to repeat the advice below, either you live with it or you leave.

Happy 2010 ...

[SeanMoran]

So, to repeat the advice below, either you live with it or you leave.

Happy 2010 ...

At least they're honest about it here. Happy New Year for tomorrow!

[richard_smith237]

I am not Thai, never will be Thai. I have lived here 20 years and am about as adapted as you can get (better be or you go crazy, and since I am only marginally insane, I guess I've done alright) and yet I still understand that I am not a Thai person and that I will always be my husband's foreign wife.

Either you live with it or you leave. But banging your head against the brick wall is only going to give you a headache and won't have an effect on the wall whatsoever.

Couldn't agree more. Unless you can change your appearance to look like a Thai, you'll never be accepted / treated as a Thai. I'm fortunate enough to speak Thai pretty well - to the extent that if a Thai person can't see me, they quite often think I'm Thai. Then they see me, or ask for my name if it's a phone call, and suddenly I'm a falang who can phuut Thai chat maak.

But so what? Why would anyone want to be treated like your average Thai anyway?

Foreigners sometimes get a raw deal here - again, so what. Westerners still get treated better than most Thais, and most of the time when we don't get treated as well as we'd like, we're still usually getting treated no worse than the 'average Thai', whoever he or she may be.

20 years ago I used to work with one of the sons of Dr Puey Ungphakorn. Dr Puey's wife was a Brit, and the kids looked pretty Western, particularly Peter, the guy I worked with. It didn't matter at all that he was Thai, spoke Thai fluently and without any accent, and was the son of a very prominent academic and bureaucrat - almost every Thai who didn't know him assumed he was a foreigner. I asked Peter once if it bothered him: he told me that he'd stopped worrying about it long ago and just accepted that was the way things were.

So, to repeat the advice below, either you live with it or you leave.

Happy 2010 ...

IMO this pretty much sums up most issues quite nicely...

I also like the 'stage 3' comment further up the page... its the healthiest state of mind to be in over here. I have always seem more similarities than differences over here in Thailand - but thats because like anywhere else - there a good people and bad people, its simply luck of the draw who you get. And for us Westerners sometimes it works to our advantage and sometimes it works against us.

[SabaiBKK]

That would be democracy not capitalism and it was 1932.

democracy???????????? LOL !!!! we all know that Phibulsongkram was a REAL democrat !!!!!

[kikoman]

I have lived in Thailand almost 10 years now, and it stills is Paradise to me.

I also chose who I interact with, and I chose to interact with the Thai people, have very little contact with other falangs, really do not care for their company. I have noticed ,the few times falangs have come to my village, they usually are brought to my house for a visit, I guess Thai believe I would want to interact with falangs. I chose not to.

I always treat any guest to my home with respect, my house is always open to my Thai friends and neighbors. when they come in the falang usually retreats to some corner and sits there alone not interacting with my friends.

I do have a couple of Falang friends that ,I have not met in person, we are more of a mutual project society, as they are doers and not talkers. Those are the type of people I like.

Not some dirty old man the stares at all the young women, that visit my daughters.

[leemac]

People think they know Thailand and Thai people, but there's a very important aspect to the differences in their culture and ours that they do not remember.

What do you consider to be the three most important issues of the day? The environment? Global warming? Politics? Iran or North Korea? Police brutality? CIA operations? Surveillance in the UK? Christmas? Balckwater? Whether or not gay marriage is legal? human rights issues?

These things are likely to be important to you, if you are one of the top 10% of wealthiest people in the world.

For everyone else, their priorities of importance are very very different. Who cares what Iran is doing when you have three kids to feed and less than 1000baht to your family's name, no savings, no real job, no assets, & no land or relatives with property to inherit?

If someone who earns on average 4000+ Baht per day (one of us) comes within range of you, getting a cut of their wealth will be the number one most important thing in your life. Your life and that of your children depends on your ability to do this.

When it's a survival skill, it's called wisdom or cunning. When you've been raised that way, it becomes habit. When you continue to use those skills and habits after you no longer need them for survival, they are called greed.

When they see us throwing money away like you wouldn't believe, finding a way to get some of that life saving money will be very very important.

Don't think of them as greedy, dishonest, materialistic, or sneaky- they come from a background most of us could never comprehend. Even when I was homeless for a year, I never suffered the way some of the Thai people with homes do on a daily basis. I never had to sell my body, or that of my wife, sons, or daughters, to pay debts, buy food, clothes, pay rent, or any of the other essentials that people need to live.

Sure, some do it for cell-phones and good times, but once you're accustomed to something, it becomes easy. Just because they are accustomed to it doesn't mean they want to do it or have a lot of other options.

Sorry if I offend. I don't think people see Thai culture for what it really is. A beautiful culture, that became what it is as a result of the poverty that also causes the less desirable aspects of that culture.

Take the good, get accustomed to the bad, and you will enjoy Thailand.

[Ruperts]

People think they know Thailand and Thai people...

Sorry if I offend. I don't think people see Thai culture for what it really is. A beautiful culture, that became what it is as a result of the poverty that also causes the less desirable aspects of that culture.

Take the good, get accustomed to the bad, and you will enjoy Thailand.

You're just talking about the very poor people though, really, aren't you? You're talking about beggars and bar girls, I'm talking about wider Thai society, especially the middle and upper classes, which make up the vast majority of Thai people. You say "people think they know Thailand" and then start talking as if every Thai is out to seperate a farang from his money, which clearly isn't the case for more than 99% of the population.

Regardless, I'm interested to know what exact part of Thai culture you think is 'beautiful', then I'd challenge you to stay here for six months or a year, meet some people who aren't bar girls, and come back and tell us whether you still think the same way. I'd bet my fridge and all its contents that you wouldn't. Recently I met a very interesting Thai who has spent much of his adult life abroad, and he was in agreement with me that Thai culture is going completely to shit, and fast. The situation would be ironic if it wasn't so predictable. Never mind, though, I'm still enjoying myself.

[Wossnext]

Three stages to life in Thailand

1.Thailand is paradise, the people are wonderful everythign is perfect.

Disillusion sets in and then you hit stage 2. Thailand is awful, Thai people are horrible, its a hel_l on earth

and finally stage 3, which some people never reach: Thailand is just a place, like any other, with good and bad people like everywhere else.

Oh that is amusing and so true thanks for the laugh I needed that.

[caf]

I said it on another thread some time ago but it's worth repeating here: what most people are willing to say about most Thais is more reflective of those speaking than it is of the Thais.

As a corollary- there are all kinds of people out there in Thailand (there would have to be, right?). If it seems you are only meeting one kind of person, what is the common denominator, then?

What people are saying about Thais is from observation. As several posters are commenting. Nothing to do with "more reflective of those speaking"

So you don't think who you are, how you carry yourself and whom you mix with has any bearing on your opinion of the world around you.

Yes of course. But not to the extent that ijustwannateach is suggesting. sbk probably put it in perspective quite well.

[caf]

Sorry, but I don't know when capitalism was first introduced here.

Capitalism was a mistake for Thailand??

It has problems but capitalism is not one of them. I thought we were going to be enlightened about pre 1996 from your earlier post . Chickened out. ?

[caf]

This however is close to been an exception ....... Ruperts, your comments may well reflect your experieince and perception of Thailand and it's people, but after 20 years of living here ful time (and that doesnt include a large part of my childhood spent growing up in Thailand), I can assure you my friend that that is all it is i.e. your experience and perception - and far from reality it certainly is.

Theres this perception amongst many (some?) ex-pat visitors/short term stayers and repeat visitors that Thai's are inferior, that their ways are not as good/refined/sophisticated or developed as Caucasians or Westerners. This attitude is more a reflection of the prejudice and sense of superiority those individuals have of themselves and of their Western culture. It is ignorance on a grand scale.

Interesting post, Maizefarmer, and I must say that I have been suprised by the lack of apologists in this thread, so it is nice to see someone defending the Kingdom.

I do take exception to your assumption that I believe Thai's to be 'inferior', because I certainly don't. I treat people as individuals as I would expect to be treated in return.

But is their culture inferior?

At 2.30am it's difficult to think of any set criteria by which this can be measured. But a few things that instantly come to mind are the nationalistic attitude - not allowing foreigners to buy land, this is racism, however you package it, and by western standards is very backwards. Corruption at every level. Talking about the UK Great Expenses Scandal is very 2009, but does it really compare to a persons ability to commit murder and then buy themselves out of jail? I don't think so. Not even close.

Other things: sports, arts, music, science, technology, space programs, medicine, you name it... On the world stage Thailand is well behind. This is obviously no fault of any individual Thai, but is this an indication of an inferior culture? I think you'd struggle to argue otherwise.

I would like to make it clear again that it is not so much the people I dislike but the culture and more specifically where it is headed.

Perhaps you have been in Thailand too long, MF, and haven't been to the west to see the destruction of society that has been a direct result of our culture. Fortunately, there are increasingly large waves of well-aimed discontent spreading through the west which should pave the way for actual change. I see Thailand adopting our self destructive ways with such gusto, that my worry is that they won't see the problems beginning, maybe they won't care, mai pen rai, and even if they do, it might be too late. Unlike you, I've seen it once already, and in a country which I could so easily like so much, it hurts to see it happening again.

MF is not usually so biased but you are right Ruperts. I agree with your post. Just on example, corruption. You have put that in perspective. An often used tactic here on this forum is to say - ah, well. corruption happens everywhere; or, i've lived here 20 years and i have had no problems.

good post

caf

[caf]

This may have been you (and some others) experiences, and i feel bad for you, but dont assume that about everyone. If a woman has a negative experience with a man from the west, does that make all western men the same? If a woman has MANY negative experiences with men..she should probably start questioning as to why this is happening. I see the flip side of the "all western women are bad, Asian women are my dream" type thinking, where a man may get stung by a Thai girl(s) and suddenly they are disillusioned with Thai women also. Some women in the west make great partners, some dont. Same here. Same with the men. I honestly hope that the men who come here as a "retreat" in some way, learn to let go of this way of thinking.

The problem is, Eek old girl, the the western legal system enables any woman with children to behave in that way. I would like to suggest that many women in the west are pressed into the 'taking everything they can' by their solicitors and their friends, they don't need to be 'bad' by any means, they do it because they can. I don't particularly care what one woman does, but merely point out that EVERY woman can do this if she has children. Of course more and more women are taking this action when they get fed up or bored with their partners (they don't even need to be married).

Men in the western world with a partner and children under 19 essentially have no property rights of any sort, it can all be taken from them in a very short space of time.

In the UK

step 1

Woman goes to police and says man is dangerous and mentally cruel

A court order will be issued within 14 days without the man knowing, evicting him from the house. No evidence is required by the woman, her word is good enough.

step 2

Tell the court the man is likely to harm his children, this will prevent him having contact with them for the foreseeable future.

step 3

file for divorce on grounds of unreasonable behaviour. Within 6 months the house will be assigned into the womans sole possession.

During the process dial 999 every time you see the man and report him for stalking, this will ensure he has a criminal record and will be held in jail while questioned.

See how easy that is!

No evidence is required in family court in the UK.

That is absolute BS.

No evidence required !!! Evicted in 14 days !!

Not BS, same in the USA, woman goes to cops and claims mental cruelty and gets a restraining order good for 90 days. You are out of your house and on the street. No investigation, no recourse then its downhill from there.

Maybe in the USA. But in the Uk, you are wrong. You stated " No evidence is required in family court in Uk" That is absolutly wrong. What a troll

[caf]

People think they know Thailand and Thai people, but there's a very important aspect to the differences in their culture and ours that they do not remember.

What do you consider to be the three most important issues of the day? The environment? Global warming? Politics? Iran or North Korea? Police brutality? CIA operations? Surveillance in the UK? Christmas? Balckwater? Whether or not gay marriage is legal? human rights issues?

These things are likely to be important to you, if you are one of the top 10% of wealthiest people in the world.

For everyone else, their priorities of importance are very very different. Who cares what Iran is doing when you have three kids to feed and less than 1000baht to your family's name, no savings, no real job, no assets, & no land or relatives with property to inherit?

If someone who earns on average 4000+ Baht per day (one of us) comes within range of you, getting a cut of their wealth will be the number one most important thing in your life. Your life and that of your children depends on your ability to do this.

When it's a survival skill, it's called wisdom or cunning. When you've been raised that way, it becomes habit. When you continue to use those skills and habits after you no longer need them for survival, they are called greed.

When they see us throwing money away like you wouldn't believe, finding a way to get some of that life saving money will be very very important.

Don't think of them as greedy, dishonest, materialistic, or sneaky- they come from a background most of us could never comprehend. Even when I was homeless for a year, I never suffered the way some of the Thai people with homes do on a daily basis. I never had to sell my body, or that of my wife, sons, or daughters, to pay debts, buy food, clothes, pay rent, or any of the other essentials that people need to live.

Sure, some do it for cell-phones and good times, but once you're accustomed to something, it becomes easy. Just because they are accustomed to it doesn't mean they want to do it or have a lot of other options.

Sorry if I offend. I don't think people see Thai culture for what it really is. A beautiful culture, that became what it is as a result of the poverty that also causes the less desirable aspects of that culture.

Take the good, get accustomed to the bad, and you will enjoy Thailand.

I think you are right about poverty and survival. It is a pity it is seen as greed and badness. But it is the corruption of a class socirty dominated by a faction that has caused it. The Thais deserve better. Will it ever be given to them?

caf